By | July 11, 2008 64 Comments

Donald Trump doesn’t even understand con men!

Recently, Donald Trump made headlines when he publically criticized Anne Hathaway for not sticking by her boyfriend of four years, Raffaello Follieri, following his arrest for fraud and money laundering. Apparently, Trump doesn’t understand the romantic con artist, but that’s OK, neither did I until I was targeted by one. In spite of the best psychiatric training this country has to offer, I fell for, married and had a son with a con man. I filed for divorce when following his arrest, I realized his true nature. So when Trump chastises Hathaway, he also chastises me and other women who have fallen for con men.

In the wake of the destruction left by the con man, I looked within myself for an answer to the “why me?” question. I also sought out other victims to see if there were any patterns to be found in the way romantic con men operate. I was privileged to get to know other duped successful women, both personally and anonymously through a survey conducted with my colleague Sandra L. Brown, M.A. As I read the accounts of Anne Hathaway’s relationship to Raffaello Follieri, I was impressed by the degree to which her story fits the typical pattern in terms of both the players and the game.

First let’s discuss the players. The typical con artist has what psychologist call “psychopathic personality traits.” The con artist is arrogant, confident and a good talker. He is obsessed with the pursuit of power. This obsession when combined with the gift of gab leads to pathological lying. In addition to being motivated by power, con artists are also usually thrill seekers in need of constant excitement.

In the July 14th issue of People Magazine, Follieri is described as “arrogant” and “A guy who wore his confidence like one of his custom suits.” He sought to portray himself as powerful, espousing connections to the Vatican and residence in an apartment previously occupied by Aristotle Onassis. He led an exciting life, socializing with politicians and the wealthy and jet skiing on the French Rivera.

People Magazine also gives us some insight into the personality of Ann Hathaway. She is said to be “sincere and accepting” a “very strong woman” and “a sweet girl.” These words perfectly describe the typical female victim of a romantic con. As we report in our recent book (Women Who Love Psychopaths), the average woman we surveyed is extremely cooperative, tolerant and empathetic. We also found victimized women also seek excitement in their lives. This excitement seeking seems to form the point of connection between con men and their women.

Now the con game. People Magazine states, “She [said she] was put off initially by his arrogance and attitude. He pursued her and within two weeks they were madly in love.” This description could have come from any of the female victims I know. Con artists always move quickly so that their victims are kept off balance. After they talk themselves into women’s lives they entrap them. Women are entrapped by emotional bonds which result from the relationship intensity. As a group, psychopathic con artists are highly sexual and many are sex offenders. Women are also entrapped by social bonds and a sense of loyalty that the con artist often works to foster. Women may enter a state of denial about the relationship that can last years as it appears to have here. This unconscious denial results from not wanting to give up the “dream relationship” and not wanting to admit being the victim of a con.

Because of loyalty and denial, often the relationship does not end until the arrest of the con artist. These men are typically smothering and controlling; this dynamic is also said to have existed in Hathaway’s case. When the con artist finally goes to jail, the victim is free to talk with friends and think for herself. It is only then that reality sets in.

With regard to Donald Trump’s statement, “She hasn’t remained very loyal to him, has she? So when he had plenty of money, she liked him, but then after that, not as good, right?” I agree that successful women are often attracted to con artists because they appear to be rich, powerful and exciting. However, our research shows that women pay dearly for this attraction and the cost of the relationship increases the longer they stay. Most women are harmed in nearly every sphere of their lives: psychologically, emotionally, sexually, socially, occupationally and financially.

I would also like to point out that unlike Ms. Hathaway many women have had children within the context of a romantic con. The con artist is then in a position to use the children to continue to control their mother should she attempt a break-up. The children of these relationships suffer a great deal due to the con man’s erratic behavior. They also inherit genes that put them at risk to become antisocial.

Most women meet psychopathic con men through common friends as Hathaway did. However, internet dating is giving these men easy access to successful women. It is important for women who are adventurous, accepting and compassionate to know that they possess the traits con men look for. These women should also understand that when they seek adventurous, dominant and powerful men, they “are fishing in the pathology pond” as my colleague Sandra Brown, M.A. says. Women who discover they were conned into a relationship should get out as these relationships can be very destructive. The longer a woman sticks by her con man, the more harm she will suffer.

Although this story is about con men, there are also con women. These women are just as destructive as their male counterparts in terms of their children and their relatioship partners.

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Please don’t take this the wrong way- I detest con men and women….psychopaths are the scourge of the earth…and I do not blame victims BUT

I have realized we need to see why we were taken in, have to realize what lie we wanted to believe.

I just blogged on this topic– thanks for the post.

newworld view

wish we could let anne know about this site….she must feel awful and doesnt need trump to judge her…..who put him in charge???

newworld view

sure makes you wonder about trumps behind the scenes ethics…i dont follow him enough, but he sure acts with an at least narcissistic personality….his women seem more for show and are usually seen and not heard….thank God his first wife seems to have wised up….eewwwww


Very interesting Dr. Leedom,

When I met my daughters father it was just like that…two weeks later he told me I would be his wife and we were living together in fact we did not leave the house for those two weeks…not even for food. And when we split it was over the abuse…I had called the police a couple of times…the new laws about arresting the abuser were not in tact in 1988. So no arrests were made and of course I was still in love.

Christmas eve he was so nice to me….he asked me if I wanted to go christmas shopping with him….all month he said he had no money….he managed to borrow a couple of thousand from a friend….now this is a man with a million dollar per year gross business. But How would I know…I trusted everything he said….I had an infant child….he wouldn’t have lied, I thought.

We went shopping with our friends and he told me he only had enough money to buy his family gifts. I walked around that mall for hours watching him purchase gifts for his family. He saw that I was upset and he told me the best christmas present I could give to him is to leave tomorrow. I had to put on a face to our friends who were chiropractors. I remember telling Terry I was leaving tommorrow, that Glenn wanted me to leave….She said he probably doesn’t mean it! He did!

When we got home I was so sick with a massive headache…and I asked him to put our daughter to bed. His mother was babysitting so he got extremely angry at me and told his mother to leave with the baby and beat me! Then he left and called the police on me saying I was fighting with him.

During that time I called my family it was close to midnight christmas eve. They were in NJ and I was living in Queens NY. They told me to call the police and they headed out to get me. The police made him bring my daughter back. Glen persisted…lying all the time that I was the problem….they didn’t care…we were not married and he had no rights…thank God!

But now my daughter and I are estranged…she lives with him….where she is attempting a music career herself…and she and I do not get along right now! I feel as though she could care less about me…she is all about herself right now….This relationship caused so much turmoil in my life with all the lies and deception….and nobody wants to hear it…nobody wants to care and help….and it is very difficult to accept all these lies…over and over and over. And it has caused other problems…so I just choose to be without my family. There was just not proper support there! In fact I was blamed in the end for all the problems. When nobody truly understood the depth of the assailant.

What kind of person ruins “Christmas” for another person…he didn’t have to do that!

And than I met a second sociopath….the Con-Artist….All too familiar…why? I though! After many years of therapy I came to understand why? My own mother was very abusive to me…and even though that was years ago as a child….I learned that to be associated with “love”….abuse of children only creates low self-esteem…and poor choices in adult relationships. Acceptance of bad behavior in an effort to have love from that person. Cowaring to unhealthy power and control.

But I did fight back in the best way I knew how….in the courts….and I believe today I have very good news.

Yesterday I was in court about the con-artist “P”….I was exausted at this point….I work two jobs 70 + hour work weeks, paying off my attorneys, I’ve been in court for more than a year with this violation of probation. He was arrested and plead guilty to a fraud theft Aug 2006. He has been behind in his restitution payments attempting to show the courts he cannot pay. I wasn’t sure how it was going to turn out. What I did know is that I wasn’t going down without a fight! I sent letters and letters to everyone I could explaining what I knew about this man and the case history. Fact after fact!

Judge Batten must have spent a long time reviewing all the transcripts of the case as he so eloquently covered the entire process looking for answers. He first discussed what the crime was (2nd degree fraud: Theft by deception in the amount of $275,000). He did discuss the Defendants “ability to pay” and the statues in NJ supporting that. That was when I thought I was going to loose this. Than he said he was unable to find in any file any indication that the Defendant had entered a motion for reconsideration back at the time he had violated his probation. I remember my heart sinking in releaf. I stopped writing and I heard the judge say…I just cannot do this to the victim….and I lost control and broke into tears…I was trying to hide it but the officer of the court made a streamline straight to me with a box of tissues. Everyone was looking now! And I could see that the whole courtroom was involved in the drama and I saw the sorrow on some faces and I lost it. As I was collecting my emotions Judge Batten went on about the Defendants Bankruptcy and Gambling and etc. He said there were several legality problems…first there was no appeal, Silence of the Defendants income, and his attempts to pay. He went over month by month each payment and how some cash and some money orders. He questioned it all! Saying it always concerned him when he was a family court judge and the Defendants were paying with money orders!

In the end he said the Defendant in receiving a favorable plea arrangement with no jail on a 2nd degree crime… if he were to allow him to not pay his restitution it would be as though he would offer him a “double dip”. He again said there was no indication of change of circumstances and denied his motion and violated his probation.

He did however afford the opportuntity to withdraw his plea of guilt and precede to trial reinstating the 2nd degree theft charge. as per State vs. Saperstein 1985.

Used Brauer

With regard to Donald Trump’s statement, “She hasn’t remained very loyal to him, has she? So when he had plenty of money, she liked him, but then after that, not as good, right?”

It appears to me that Donald Trump isn’t viewing this situation from all sides regarding Ms. Hathaway’s relationship with this con. Apparently HE didn’t have plenty of money or HE wouldn’t be in so much trouble!

She gave him the benefit of the doubt until she learned that he was a LIAR and I’m sure she cared about him very much! What else could she do? She has a legitimate career and this sociopath has conned her like he did everyone else!

This might be a good opportunity for Mr. Trump to share his ideas on spotting someone like Mr. Follieri before they have a chance to ruin so many lives. Mr. Follieri conned many people. THAT’S WHY HE GOT ARRESTED. He’d still be free if he had only concentrated on ruining Ms. Hathaway’s life and stealing all her money.



I read your blog…where did you get all that Info. I think it is important to know where it comes from….I’ve spent quite some time in therapy about it…and that has never been the result for me. It was more of the abuse of my childhood that brought me to this point. The relating love to abuse because of my mother. There was no thrill in the abuse for me! I became very depressed because of the abuse. It didn’t give me any excitement. So I would be careful about that discussion with people who are hurt here. And don’t take that the wrong way either. I’m sure you are looking for your way out too. And we have to be honest with ourselves.

Trish not sure what you mean?

I cited Sam V.

Excitement was one benefit of a r/s with psycho, some get love- my psycho was not loving- others imagine they’ll have a life they never imagined….

My psycho was a psuedo intellectual and I thought somehow I was “smart” b/c he blathered on it me…no I was just an ear. Ends up his “theories” mostly conspiracy and one notable taken straight from the Arts section of NYT.

I suspect- b/c psychos are known for charming us more than we ever have been- that we know this is too good to be true, but we want to believe it.

I had to admit the smallness of my life, the mediocrity of my writing in otehrwords I am never going to be among the great
writers or thinkers of our time…psycho made me think knowing him was akin to being friends with say a Picasso.

My life is OK, I am OK.


I have had the obnoxious personalities in my life for as long as I’ve been alive. They have come to me in forms of family members, neighbors, friends, teachers, co-workers, employers, professors (changing my grades to get something from me. My work was worth an A but I opted for walking away from these jerks), lovers etc. My involvement with said obnoxious personalities keeps me even more focused on my relationship with God … switching from the human thinking of earthly goals into spiritual essence and all that that entails. God is Love. Everything else is man made illusions.

Oh, and Mr. Trump, how many gorgeous, intelligent, gracious women are you going to marry and discard … until you find your way back to God?



Answer given me by my spiritual advisor for the question: WHY ME?

But I also understand the need to forgive, to release the offender from responsibility for the way he treated me. I’ve learned an important lesson that Jesus described as follows:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

But I tell you,
Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
they may be sons of your Father in heaven.”
(Mt 5:43-45)
I have learned to pray for God to bless the person(s)
who abused me,
to help him do his/her job well and develop his/her character
to be like Jesus.
Pray blessings on the offender.

It’s what my pastor calls “responding in the opposite spirit.” I have discovered that doing so also helps me, because praying for God to bless that person helps me release him from guilt for his abusive behavior. Any time I sense anger rising up in me toward that person, I immediately pray for God to bless him. Here are some key points:

(1) blessing my offender helps me become like Jesus;

(2) dwelling on my anger and pain strengthens my sinful nature. It’s your choice: you can benefit from your experience and become more like Jesus, or you can allow your experience to make you more ungodly like the people who abused you.

You are not responsible for what those people did to you, but you certainly are responsible for the way you respond.

Peace to your heart and souls.

Ox Drover

First off, I have never ever doubted that Donald Trump is at the very least a narcissist, and I strongly suspect a con man to boot. He has done a lot of wheeling and dealing that has been in the news as suspect over the years.

He likes to present himself as a high roller, but I have never seen any stability in any of the news articles about him that would make me think he is a caring person or an understanding one either.

Typical N thoughts if you think about it—this guy cons her and others and goes to jail and SHE should remain loyal to HIM? Gimme a BREAK, Donald!

I think we all need “excitement” or “stimulation” or to have interesting things and people in our lives. I have never been bored a day in my life because I find lots of things “exciting” and fulfilling, even reading can be exciting. My P XBF did holdo ut the promise of doing things with him that I love to do anyway and to me that would have bee heaven on earth, a man that loved me and liked the wide variety of things I like. Especially after having lost my “exciting” and loving and fun husband I was vulnerable to having this “golden ring” held out for me to grab on the merry-go-round of life–complete with love again. What more could I have wanted? Like REALITY! LOL

For some “life iin the fast lane” holds out the promise of happiness, and for others the “contentment of a family life” holds out the promise of happiness. I think they sense what ever “golden ring” we want for a prize and hold out that fantasy to us. Excitement is relative to what our dreams and desires are. I’m sure Ivana Trump (whatever her name is now) would not find my life very exciting, but I DO, and that is all that matters to me!

newworld view

another thing donald, anne didnt support him??? wasnt loyal to him??? show me exactly how his behavior shows loyalty to her???? like i said, some people have a small tornado running around in their brains…..anything may be blurted out at anytime…because he has been successful in business does not render donald any God given right to stand judgment over others…..we pay so much attention to these people through the different media venues, that they actually start believing they hold a different level in the hierarchy of mankind…eeeeeewwwwwww

That’s the Fun aspect sof narcissists…they dress/ act/look stupid without a clue….

I watched mine do a verutable Charlie Chaplin routine once to impress a woman…complete with cigar except he was serious… she happened to mention she liked pipes…baffoons

“First off, I have never ever doubted that Donald Trump is at the very least a narcissist, and I strongly suspect a con man to boot. He has done a lot of wheeling and dealing that has been in the news as suspect over the years.”

OxD, I hate to disagree with you, but do you really think any self-inflating narcissist would wander around with that comb-around hairstyle? tee hee, just teasing you. The Donald is probably so accustomed to blaming everyone for whatever he is unhappy with, he automatically “connected” Hathaway’s x and felt compelled to help him point fingers. As a matter of professional (disordered) courtesy!


I just read this same story today in People and I was thinking, “Should I send Anne the link to LoveFraud?”

I am sure we ALL got it immediately when we read the story.

How annoying that Trump felt he should comment. He is making her appear to be a shallow Gold Digger.
That is so sad… AS IF he didn’t know a thing or two about Gold Diggers. HELLO?!

I wouldn’t be surprised if Trump isn’t a little Narcissistic anyway.

Ox Drover


LOL yea, that is such a putzy hair style, like he is a big stud or something NOT!!! Personally, I think The Donald gives con men a bad name! Yea, I bet he did identify with the con man.

Maybe the Donald learned what he knows about con men and sociopaths at the same school Tom Cruise learned about psychiatry and post-partum depression… The “Clueless With Access to Media” School.

On a more serious note…can we get Anne Hathaway as our National Spokesperson for the Survivor’s of Sociopathy? (name of org TBD). Anne Hathaway would probably be a much more palatable “face” of the anti-con-man cause than my x- tied up with duct tape across his mouth, hanging by his toes over an alligator pit… atleast, that’s the image “I” had in mind….Gators don’t seem to be particularly finicky eaters…


Donald Trump – mmmm I wonder what personality type he is?? Well as they say “birds of a feather stick together”. The frightening thing is that he can make comments without paying any regard to the fact that the guy has broken the law. Clearly that doesn’t figure in his universe. These days I think the moral fibre has gone out of our society and all too often the criminals are given a fair hearing and the victim is blamed. It’s completely out of balance.
The description of a romantic con artist often comes across to me as a sterotype; well dressed, slick, often in business. Well think again.
The P that targeted me was a non native english speaker, uneducated and from a very poor background but he had slyly managed to manouevre himself into a position that he could target foreign women by hooking up with his boss ( the OW). I was 9 years older than him at the time, educated and married to an Oxford educated doctor!! The con job on me was long term planning. As he said ” I started to love you 3 years ago”, in other words I decided you were the target 3 years ago. Gaining my trust ( by both of them) was so quietly and stealthly executed that I was totally unaware of the intentions. I knew both of them for 7 years before I even became the target and no-one who knew about their twisted liason ever gave me any warning.
So, let’s all give out the warning that these predators come in every kind, shape and size and always, always, always look at their actions not their words. Just a few enquiries to the right people 3 years ago could have saved me from the worst experience of my life.


Free: Your statement [seriously” the hair?!]

THANK YOU. I CAN’T STOP LAUGHING. I will remember you and your comment any time I see or hear about trump.


Ox Drover

Actually Glinda, Crocodiles would be much better choices for the pits than Alligators. Alligators actually are finiccy eaters, but Crocs will gladly eat people. A pit full of cobras might be nice too. We could probably get the Donald to sell tickets if he got a 60/40 cut! LOL

I wish there was a “National Association” for victims with some high profile person as the spokesperson who had made big media hype. Maybe it would draw some attention that might educate people.

Some of the stories we all know (or have lived through) are “too crazy to be believeable” yet they ARE TRUE. Yet I would be willing to bet that 99.999999% of the public have NO idea what a psychopath is that it can be your grandpa, your neighbor, your doctor, your dentist, your school teacher, etc. That some of the abuse, probably MOST of the abuse, is not physical violence but ruining people’s careers, browbeating a child, subtle emotional assisination. Just the physical beatings and killings done in domestic situations is outrageous and so common, if you factor in the non-physical violence, it seems it runs in every family in the country to some extent, if not every household. It seems almost as if “every family” has one connected to them some how by marriage or blood, or both.

Just going over in my mind the people I know, I can hardly find a family that doesn’t have some pretty dysfunctional crap going on. Or an office that doesn’t seem to have at least one psychopath on staff that keeps the chit stirred up.

Maybe we could recruit The Donald to be the poster boy for the Narcissists. LOL I think he qualifies at least.


I would say that from a much publicized private life, Donald Trump is not exactly the epitome of a scholar on “healthy love” relationships. It’s not hard to imagine that his focus likely comes more from a perspective of “gold digging” women. Hathaway is a well publicized actress, so it seems his “esteemed” opinion more likely is prompted by any additional self promotion his grandiose ego can garner based on nothing but his own personal take of a human condition.

But it does again reinforce the common predisposition for ignoring or missing pathological behavior. I don’t, however, make the jump to chastisement, I see it as just more ignorance. And in this case male ignorance of a black pot failing to acknowledge the black on his own pot, much less is he going to point the finger at another club member.

Dr. Leedom’s discussion of the players and the game I follow except for the repeated use of the word “successful” women. It leads me to ask, what is “successful” and does being successful have anything to do with being conned?

In a physical way of course the more you have accumulated, the more you have for someone else to take. You’re in a position of having more material things to lose and having more risk for a public embarrassment, and the larger the public figure the larger the possibility that the media will turn it into a public “scandal.” There is an added embarrassment (because of old societal standards and stereotypes for women) I think, of a “come uppance” in that how could anyone so smart be so dumb, that holds true for any gender who is seen as “successful” because they are obviously a “juicer” target.

But getting to the heart of the matter, it comes down to one having something that someone else wants. If you’ve placed yourself on an elite platform you may be perceived as having farther to fall but you also have additional resources in which to assist in your rebound.

Does accumulation, intelligence, wealth, notoriety play a part. Obviously not in the end, because it all comes down to the same thing. And it can be an ego equalizer, the realization that you have been used and now independent of any “success,” you still have to pull yourself out of the chaos and then learn, change, and rebuild.

Success to me has come to equate wisdom, and wisdom doesn’t equate to intelligence. Wisdom is a gift from God. We’re all equal in God’s eyes though we are given different gifts and sometimes we receive a reminder of that lesson through our behavior. But Donald Trump’s opinion isn’t one I would use as any sort of gauge or even consider, other than as a good example of bad behavior. Our standard bearer should be Jesus Christ, not Donald Trump.


Ox Drover

QUOTE: OX DROVER: For some “life iin the fast lane” holds out the promise of happiness, and for others the “contentment of a family life” holds out the promise of happiness. I think they sense what ever “golden ring” we want for a prize and hold out that fantasy to us. Excitement is relative to what our dreams and desires are. I’m sure Ivana Trump (whatever her name is now) would not find my life very exciting, but I DO, and that is all that matters to me!

Benz, you put much more clearly what I was trying to say here. “Success” is so relative a term, but one that many equate with power, wealth, media attention, etc. To me, Mother Theresa is much more a “success” than Donald Trump.

Due to my late husband’s job as a corporate pilot (glorified chauffer but a little more status) we have rubbed elbows with many of the “Rich and Famous” and I have a nice note from Pat Nixon when he flew her and Richard on his campaign tour, but in spite of their “fame” and “wealth” in many cases these people were morally poverty stricken, as well as grossly unhappy even though in front of a camera they appeared to have “everything going for them.”

I think in our society, maybe in the world, “success” is equated with power, money and status when those three things are not a “free ticket” to happiness or REAL SUCCESS in life.

It is my personal opinion that The Donald has nothing that I would envy in his life, including his money. Even though my P-bio-father finally made the Forbes 400 list of the richest men in America, it never bought him one ounce of contentment.


What FAST LANE? I was going to work, keeping my head above water for what my bosses and their cronies were doing to destroy my career, paying my bills, paying attorney fees. Some fast lane? You don’t have to be in the fast lane to be screwed over. Maybe he was in the fast lane without my knowledge, but I wasn’t there. Next time, I’ll have to insist that I’m in some fast lane … before it all collapses. Tell me … are any men in existence today with out all this baggage. Tell us now so we know to stay on our own forever more.

And, I think the statistics of how many psychos are really out there in the world today walking around doing their damage is low, low, low. I think the statistics are kept low cause you don’t want to freak us out. Yeah, like we can’t handle it (LOL). But, if they were all colored slime green, we’d be walking in a glow of it, wouldn’t we?



If you take Trump’s money from him, and put him out on the streets with the rest of us every day lifers, wonder how many women he could get, considering his looks and that stupid hair- do of his? Many wealthy people seem to think they’ve earned the right to condemn and criticize how the rest of the world lives. God’s word says, godliness with contentment is great gain. I don’t know a lot of contented wealthy people. I have a sister and brother in law, who are millionaires. I think he is contented, but my sister can’t get done shopping. Over eating isn’t the only thing that is considered gluttony. She has closets full of new items and she gives to charities things she no longer wants. But she keeps shopping looking for that one thing that will bring her pleasure. One could take a vacation just being at her house. In ground pool and the works. She’s hardly ever there. I would say she is very discontented. Nothing satisfies.

And she’s the one who will no longer talk with me as she thinks I deserved the treatment I received and insinuated I created my own hell. So, to me, money doesn’t automatically make one an authority on every subject. The Donald Trumps of this world need a lesson in humility. Does he ever look in the mirror and see what the rest of the world sees? He looks like he has a tumble weed on his head.


Dear Free: I’m glad I logged on here. I was thinking I was out of school on the days and that I missed those classes in how to be abusive, not caring, stepping all over people to get where I want to go … stealing, cheating, lying, conniving, sleeping around with everyone, especially the bosses, and who cares attitude.

Glad to read others on this site care about God, ethics, wisdom and that we are all one in the universe.



I don’t know about your folks, but it takes courage to be a decent person. Anyone can be an a–hole. It takes courage to be righteous. Anyone can take the unrighteous road. It takes courage to tell the truth. Anyone can tell a lie. It takes courage to live with conviction. Anyone can do what they do on their roller coaster ride. I can go on and on with the deductions here (my forte), but it seems to me, more and more people today then ever before are opting to take the COWARDS way out in life. I remember before I left work, the new kids coming in … wouldn’t do a thing except talk on their cell phones all day (can someone tell me please, who they are talking to all day long? And, what do they have to say … my goodness, they just graduated H.S. They collected their paychecks like clockwork and personnel and management never bothered training these kids (whatever happened to training when you entered a company??) … then the famous words I would hear out of most of their mouths … it’s not what you know, it’s who you know. I’m rolling my eyes now … I retorted, well, I’m the only one you know right now … and it’s not working … so I suggest you get that assignment done.

I think everyone is believing the movies and what they see on TV. Thinking this is real life. Because, frankly, I don’t know where everyone is getting these crazy ideas out there …. then there’s all the videos …

Just me.


I’m loving the comments re: Trump. Anyone with that hairstyle and who has the nickname The Donald has to be an N. There is something about him that repels me at a very basic level. I would say he has a reptilian quality but reptiles can be quite nice and I don’t want to insult them.

Ox Drover

Years ago when my husband was a young pilot he flew as the personal pilot to many very rich folks. Never for Trump, but for men very much like him. Their only claim to “fame” was great wealth, sometimes earned but mostly by oil under their land or crooked realestate deals etc.,, sometimes by media fame, or music or televison or movies. He even flew Richard Nixon and Pat on their campaign tours, but you know, the majority of them behaved in their private life about like Trump has.

A couple of them started out as “ordinary” people who got rich fast with fame and “stardom” and then started the drugs and women and brought their house of cards and their lives down into a heap of failure.

I seem to remember Dr. Leedom making a comment here that “ordinary” people when they gain power sometimes start to act like P’s—my husband would have testified to that fact!

You can pick up any “media gossip rag” and read about the twisted lives of the “rich and beautiful”—out of wedlock children, drugs, alcohol, multiple “marriages” and “divorces” or squabbles over money. Yet, everyone some how feels like that is a glamorous life? Gimme a break!

“Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely”

Of course money and fame=power of a sorts, but it is so shallow rooted it will not stand up in the least “storm” of life, instead it seems to attract storms. Every day we can read in the newspapers how our political leaders are corrupt. Look at the sleeze that Bill Clinton brought to the white house. I don’t care if he WAS president of the United States, that kind of behavior is TRASHY to the MAX. I personally think the man and his wife both are psychopaths. In spite of that he did some good things for the country, and some bad things as well.

Unfortunately many of the people in leadership roles in our country are high in psychopathic thinking. In financial circles one only has to look at Enron to see it. Or the sub-prime mortgate scandal, the government recently arrrested 400 for parts in that and are after more, my feeling is that the really BIG DOGS though will get away by using their money and their corrupt connections to somehow slither out of prison for their crimes.

Most of the time the psychopaths that WE deal with are not running in such “high” circles as these are, maybe not damaging so many people as the “high rollers” do with their financial schemes that bankrupt investors, but they still do devestation on a more personal level with us as the brunt of their schemes.

I think most people in the US and probably in the world may label someone a sleeze bag but not realize that what they are dealing with is a psychopath, but when push comes to shove, money, fame and power can allow them to keep on keeping on and most people will just “titter” or laugh but not really “take it seriously.” Just as most of the people we try to talk to about the P-experience just “don’t get it” either.


OxDrover: Good comment about those living in their hollow/superficial/ridiculous egos, breaking God’s first commandment # ONE, “You shall have no other gods before Me”. If living in one’s ego isn’t a false god, I don’t know what is.

“And God spoke all these words, saying: ‘I am the LORD your God”

ONE: ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.’

TWO: ‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image–any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.’

THREE: ‘You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.’

FOUR: ‘Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.’

FIVE: ‘Honor your father and your mother.’

SIX: ‘You shall not murder.’

SEVEN: ‘You shall not commit adultery.’

EIGHT: ‘You shall not steal.’

NINE: ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.’

TEN: ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.’


Whenever I’ve seen Trump on tv or on a magazine cover, I say to myself…”What a dufus!” How he ever became a millionaire is beyond me, because he just doesn’t seem all too bright. The lights are on but ain’t noone at home.

I saw on some celebrity gossip site that he cheated during a recreational golf game. He furtively (or thought he was. Apparently didn’t see the photogs in the bushes) kicked the ball into the hole. So childish, petty and plain stupid.

He is the last person I would ever ask for an opinion. Up there with all celebrities. We’re suppose to wait with bated breath for them to speak then jump on their retarded bandwagon. No thanks. I’m a humble gal, but I do believe I might be a tad bit smarter than many of those Hollywood types. I just don’t go around telling the world I am…heehee.

Ox Drover

Hi, Jane, welcome back and glad you got moved, hope you like your new place.

I totally agree with you, and personally I think if your IQ is bigger than your shoe size, you’ve got DONALD TRUMP-ED. LOL Sorry for the poor pun but the devil made me do it.

heya, Oxy Lady aka Woman Extraordinaire

Yes, new place is grand. Thanks for asking. And I read on here that you have a case of the shingles. Big time bummer! I noticed about 5 years ago I had these little bumps by my belly button. Silly me, I thought they were bug bites as I’ve never had anything like it before. The skin around the area and all over my stomach was hyper sensitive to touch and to any type of sensation. I went to the dermatologist and she diagnosed me with shingles. I was alarmed…”WHAT is shingles?! And why do I have them?!” I thought people who were seriously ill were susceptible to that condition.

Well, seems if you had chicken pox as a child the virus stays in your spinal cord and can cause an outbreak of shingles. I most emphatically did NOT have an STD (herpes) so that wasn’t it.

I waited too long to visit the Dr and take the Valtrex, so it took almost a year for the skin sensitivity to abate. Awful, just awful.

Hope you don’t hurt so very much and are taking it easy on yourself. **huggles**

Ox Drover

Jane, between you and Henry pumping up my head I will get my “humble button” taken away before long! Thanks, yes, I am feeling better and the medication has about dried them up. One of the good things abot being a nurse is that most of this stuff you recognize. Mine weren’t nearly as bad as some I have seen.

That’s the thing though about STRESS and the number it works on your body and mind. Since my husband died I have had several major infections and surgery to go with one of them, and then the tick fever last summer, and on and on and on.

Bev got cancer, and though it may not have been a thing to do with the stress, it very well could have been too since cancer is also partly the “fault” of our immune system not knocking out strange things. There are just so many things that the P-experiences and the resulting STRESS do to us.

Then there is sleep deprivation from all the stress and that in itself plays a number on us, and hypervigilence, jumpiness, weight gain/loss stomach upsets, tense muscles, and on and on and on!

Tht is why I am so intent on lowering my stress level to as low as it can go, putting a foot squarely down on anyone or anything that brings UNNECESSARY stress into my life. I realized after the day I spent with my X-DIL getting those checks signed, and the truck and bank account signed over that it was more than I should have tackled. I followed it through but at the same time I am being more cautious in the future in taking on anything “extra”–even for the “best” of reasons and I know my boys will understand. Ive almost got my studio where I can work in it and so I will be starting to do some weaving and some painting here pretty quick. D will be back in a week or so, so will turn it over to him to take care of things for a while and take a little “vacation” at home.


Hi OxDrover: Sorry to hear you were down for a while. I’m putting my two cents in regarding stress. Stress does bring all the ills into play … especially the big “C”. When I went through the kangaroo court my bosses and their cronies put me through, I kept telling my best friend “if I get Cancer because of these big egos … yadda, yadda, yadda”. So I focused on my breathing, reading the Bible, knowing God was by my side or carrying me through this ordeal. What I did notice was several of my co-workers got stress due to these managers. Two died before my ordeal was over (physically out of there … then my working on mentally get over what they did). Even my “big” boss’ best friend got Cancer. I felt like telling her, best friends like your friend … you don’t need any enemies. But, she too, stabbed me in the back. What are these people thinking? Don’t answer. I’ve had my fill of big egos and their nonsense. The two of them … best friends now work in another place, together. You would think J would get away from M? But, my experience of reading JAMA and all the other medical journals for almost 25 years is … everyone has the cancer cells dormant in the lower spin. Stress is a big trigger for bringing cancer out. I like what Tolle explains about breathing, concentrating on your breath in haling and ex haling … going into the “now”, appreciating what God has given us in our lives, that minute which is all any of us has, the now.

For the best sleep that you can get … lay in the middle of your bed. Stretch your arms and legs all the way out. Do NOT use a pillow … lay flat on your back. Turn off the TV or stereo, make sure there is no distractions … slowly drift off to sleep. If you sleep this way it is the most sound sleep you can get … which refreshes you to your best.

Tolle also explains how you can heal yourself. It’s better if you read his book … he explains what has been known for centuries … and what we have forgotten.



I wasn’t going to comment on Trump but oh well why not. If he would just cut his hair very short he wouldn’t be so discussting. He is trying to hide that bald spot with that rediculess come over. What else is he trying to hide? I think confident bald men are attractive. But their is nothing he can do about that mouth, he look’s like a gold fish we he speaks….sorry donald, your a joke and probably laughing all the way to the bank…


come over I meant comb over…

Henry, Trump is so much fun to mock as he sets himself up for it all the time. And many of the celebs do too. They’re so bizarre and living in their own fantasy worlds (Narcissists?) where everyone adores and worships them. Not me.

In my 20s I was more than preoccupied with their luxurious, carte blanche lifestyles. I thought it must be awesome to take a vacation to any place in the world and be able to afford the best that life has to offer. I was so green with envy for that fancy life that I didn’t concentrate on my own wonderful life. As you folks know, I no longer care for material possessions, or even money, except it is a means to an end. I can feed me and my cats, have a roof over my head, and I can splurge on little luxuries like cds, books, and Chocolate!!

I live a simple, uncomplicated, stress free life and I am very happy with my humble existence. I find my sources of happiness in the smallest of wonders, the simpliest of tasks and deeds. I think I may have accidentially stumbled on a great secret, but don’t tell anyone…haha.

Oxy, I think you should create you a website so you can show pics of your weaving and paintings, when you finish them. I would most definitely be interested in viewing your creativity. You can bet on it!

Wini, when I was a young girl I sometimes had insomnia. I was painfully shy, self-conscious, flat out neurotic. I would lay in my bed, on my back and try to relax. I would start by mentally telling my toes to relax, then my feet, then my ankles and so on til I was completely calm and ready for sleep. Wow, I was meditating before I even knew it was a powerful discipline used for thousands of years…haha.


My EX used to do the comb over until I told him, accept the fact that you are bald and comb the remaining hair that you have off your face and backwards. Me think … I created a monster giving him this advice … he looked so much better … then he got into the hair gel and sprays. I wanted him to grow the remaining hair he had left long so I could tie it in a pony tail. Never would do that, always kept it short (on my dime again). Now his new wife has a better, more improved guy … who reinvented himself on my time, my money, my possessions, my creativity … Hey, I wonder when she is going to figure out that she is really “married to me” by proxy?

Back to the Donald. You really need to accept the fact that you are bald and comb the remaining hair back off your face. You will look and feel so much better. I promise. Besides, it’s not what we look like, it’s what is in our hearts and souls when we do any thing that counts.



henry: that was a Freudian slip … who do you want to come over? All of us, I hope. LOL.


Wini…. I would have everyone over– I can just see us all sitting around the pool, laughing and eating, I am a great cook!!!! I bet there would also be lot’s of hugz and tears but all positive……………


JaneSmith: Yes, it is the simple things in life that are the best … less is more. I too, enjoy my pets (dog, cats and 1 bird … my EX took the other bird what I thought was for a few months to bring him back after traveling on business … which in fact was monkey business … took thousands of dollars worth of my possessions with him … stole money from my bank account … bought himself a house (with my money and his investors money), bought himself new bedroom furniture and leather couches, love seat, chairs … on my dime … How do I know this? He told me, I wasn’t listening or paying attention at the time … the last time we were together he took me to a furniture store up in New Hampshire … he pointed out all the furniture he liked and said … this is what we are going to buy for our house when we marry … in hindsight, he was letting me know what he spent my money on … for his new wife and him … on my dime.

Peace everyone.


henry that’s a great idea. I’ll be there with bells on. In the mean time, enjoy your pool. As you do your laps think of all of us being there with you having fun, playing games, enjoying everyone’s spirit. P.S. we have to play cards too. I love playing cards and board games … along with volley ball, tennis, bocci, darts (now we won’t use them as targets LOL), all these fun activities … sports, horseback riding, hiking … Henry, you throw a great party!



Wouldnt it be great, gang, to have something real organised, it was mentioned before and some people expressed their interest. I would have to jump on a plane. It would be great to put faces to pen names wouldnt it?

Ox Drover

DEar Jane, Wini, and Henry,

Jane, I wanted all the perks that money could buy when I was a kid, and saw all the people living in the fast lane–I thought that money bought you status and freedom etc. and that all that made you “happy”—having had access to seeing some of the richer people (at that time) in the US, some media and political stars etc., through my late husband’s job and my late P-bio-father I saw that not many of these “rich and famous” people were really all that satisfied and/or happy.

As the years have rolled on, I started to realize what TRUE happiness was concerned with, and money couldn’t buy it.

A couple of years before he died my husband told one of his friends who was also an employee here at the airport, “You know, I have had more happiness here in the last x years than I have ever had in my life” Considering that my husband no longer had the money and “freedom” that he had had previously in his life, that was a BIG statement.

When we first decided to move back to the farm and make our home here we were pretty “poor” by my husband’s former standards. His business had been ripped off by some very wily con men, and my husband was bitter over this P-experience, he had spent what remaining money he had trying to get “justice” in the courts—and so we pretty much had to start from SCRATCH. Which we did. But we pulled together like two horses in harness, and built something together. Nothing fancy or high dollar, but it was OURS and gave us a reason to get up in the morning.

He had what is most pilot’s dreams, a little runway right beside his house. It is a turf strip, not the largest private paved strip in the world (which was what my P-bio father and his 4th or 5th wife had) and the plane was a little two seater, not the 747 my P-bio father had, and our home is quite nice but not huge or fancy, and we built it, not the 20,000 square foot mansion my P-bio father had—but you know what—it contained LOVE and all my P-bio-father’s wealth never could BUY him love, couldnt even “rent it” in most cases. LOL

I joke with people that I am among the “wealthiest 2% of Americans” and that is technically TRUE…If you own your own home and don’t owe any money on it, that does put you in the “wealthiest 2% of people in America” by one statistic. Buy you know how statistics are, a man with one foot on a red hot stove and the other on an ice cube is “statistically” comfortable!!!

The farm isn’t anything that I take credit for owning, I dont’ even feel that I “own” it but that I am just the care-taker of the land for my life time. My ancestors “bought” this land with their blood, sweat and tears, and I am just the steward for my lifetime. So to me that is an OBLIGATION not an asset. My boys feel the same way, and it will either pass on to our biological descendants if we have any more, or to a cause that will benefit others, while preserving the land.

I think that with maturity (not just “getting older” but maturing as people, mentally, emotionally and spiritually) we come to the realization that peace, joy, happiness and love, as well a spiritual growth, is what is important in this world and that no matter HOW much money, fame, adoration, intelligence, talent, etc. that we have, it all comes down to the fact that we die. We leave all material things behind when we leave this earth.

Only a hand full of the billions and billions of people who have ever lived on this earth leave behind even their names or a record of their deeds in the “history” books. Fewer still leave any lasting monuments to their lives.

To me the important things are that we live in such a way that we can look God in the face when our life is done and He says “Well done, thou good and faithful servant” Money can’t buy that. Sure, we should use our money for good if we are able, that is just another of our “talents” that we are to be good stewards over, but in addition our other “talents” for kindness and caring are also to be used well.

I’m not “rich” by the standards of the US, but by the standards of the world as a whole, I am WEALTHY in material blessings. I don’t have to sell one of my daughters into the “slavery” of the “sex worker industry” in order to feed the remaining children, I don’t have to decide which of my kids goes to bed hungry tonight. I don’t have to carry my poor dead child to the city dump to be buried under a thin layer of dirt with the rest of the city’s homeless and believe me, I have SEEN with my OWN EYES that very thing happening. I still can’t get the picture of that child being carried by its father out of my eyes over 40 years later.

Yes, the psychopaths have hurt us, injured us, held out to us the mirror of our fantasies of “true love” and they have taken that away, leaving us falling on the floor crying for what we have “lost”—but in the big scheme of things, we have gained more than we have lost by the experiences, because we have GAINED WISDOM, we have gained the knowledge of our strengths, we have gained our own power back, we have gained an awareness that no matter what we “lose” we still have the most valuable possession of all OUR SOULS. We have gained an understanding of true pain of loss. I think any human who has NOT HAD PAIN is not a complete human is an immature human. How can you truly empathize with another in pain if you have not experienced REAL PAIN.

I think the reason God sent Jesus to die such a horrible death is so that we would KNOW that Jesus DID UNDERSTAND PAIN. It wasn’t just the physical pain he endured, but the emotional pain of being ALONE in his pain. “My God my God, why hath though forsaken me?” Christ was ALONE on that cross, even God was not there for Him. But, when we are in our pain and feeling alone, we are NOT alone in our pain, because God and Jesus are there and THEY DO understand. Jesus’ “friends” deserted Him, the way some of our friends “desert” us when they don’t comprehend how we are hurting. But how can they? They have never truly experienced the depth of “pain” that we experience from the emotional and other losses we have.

Loss and the pain of loss may be “relative” in some ways, but as Viktor Frankl said in “Man’s search for meaning” pain is like a GAS, it completely FILLS whatever vessel it is in, even a small amount of gas completely fills the vessel the same as a large amount of gas does. So while our “pain” may not be of such magnitude as Jesus’ pain on the cross, never the less our whole being is filled with that pain.

It is up to us to find meaning in that pain, find meaning in life, rather than let it drag us down to the level of bitterness and avarice and egocentric thinking and behavior that the psychopaths of this world display.

There is nothing wrong with having money and using it well, even having lots of money, but as the Bible says the ROOT of ALL EVIL IS THE LOVE OF MONEY. If you “love” money and don’t have it, you are unhappy. If you love money above all else and you have it, you use it to try to “buy” happiness and you are still unhappy because nothing you buy really truly makes you “happy.” I think the Trumps of this world are the personification of that Biblical quote.


Oxy If we ever have that (get together), I will know who you are because there is a Halo above your head……

Ox Drover

Henry, my dear, there are plenty of people who would argue with you about that! Most would say I have horns and a forked tail! LOL A friend of mine who is about my age and has had a family full of Ps like I have, we call ourselves OSBs and that stands for Old School Bitches!

A couple of years ago I rented my pasture to a neighbor for no cash rent, but he had to do some fence fixing and to keep the fence rows clear of weeds and small trees, and mow the weeds in the pasture a couple of times. I figured it would be a good deal for us both, I wouldn’t have to fix or hire the fence fixed, and the pasture would be kept from going back to weeds, etc. and he would have a cheap place to keep his cattle.

Well, after six months he had done none of these things and his cattle were so poorly cared for that they were skin and bones and so I had a talk with him about “paying his rent” and he got really huffy and said “I dont’ have time to do all that, and anyway, where do you think you will get anyone to take care of this place the way YOU want it?”

I looked at him and I said, “Well, if I have to fix the fence, mow the weeds, and keep the fence rows clean, WHAT DO I NEED YOU FOR?”

So I told him that since he had not “paid the rent” that he would have to move his cattle, which he did a few months later. Of course after he was off I started looking around for new renters with essentially the same “rent” and I found a lovely young couple who are just getting started in a big farming operation and needed more land. They raise blooded horses, cattle and have a big industrial chicken farm, both hold down off the farm jobs as well, and have only one full time hired hand, but I have never seen harder working people in my life. They are taking wonderful care of my farm, keep all the fence rows clean, have spent countless amounts of money on fertilizing and liming the fields, and keep it looking like a golf course. Plus, I get to see their beautiful horses and foals grazing on the land. Not only that, but they insist in baling the hay and feeding my few head of stock and Fat and Hairy with their hay, even putting the hay out for my stock, and if I am gone I know that they will keep an eye on the place and on my stock as well.

Their animals are all well cared for, not starving like the first guy, and the place looks BETTER than when I was working it with my herd.

There are plenty of people in this world (like my previous renter) who have little or nothing because when they are presented with an OPPORTUNITY they do NOT take advantage of it. There are others who take advantage of EVERY opportunity. The ones like your X just take advantage of it until it is gone and still have nothing for themselves. You gave your X and Bev gave her X an “opportunity” to better themselves, and neither of them took advantage of this “step stool” to better themselves, but instead just took advantage of it without learning anything or doing anything to help themselves.

My X-FIL-P had one saying right “You can give people things, but you can’t help them, they have to HELP THEMSELVES” and that seems to be very true. When we ENABLE people rather than HELP them to help themselves, they always resent it, and we resent the fact that they took advantage of us and really didn’t even benefit from it.

My new renters are always apologizing for not doing MORE here on the farm. I always tell them, “Am I griping at you for not doing enough?” and they say “No” and then I say “When I am dissatisfied, YOU will be the FIRST to know it” As far as I am concerned it is a “marriage” made in heaven for me! I just hope they keep on thinking that it is good for them as well. Besides, except for them I don’t know anyone that would value the land and keep it up like I want it so I want them to be satisfied as well.


Dear OxDrover: It’s the same thing as “you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink” (LOL). Hey, I have a saddle for you if you want it. Seems my EX spent money on a boat and horses and a new vehicle instead of spending my I lent him (cough – stole from me that was to be a loan) to pay all his back and future child support payments. Well, a few months ago I was digging through everything he left here (what a job in itself, I’m breathing here, have to breath when I write anything he did to me) … anyway, I get down to the bottom box and what do you think is in there? A saddle for the horse he bought. One horse for him and one horse for his (cough) room mate/fiancee ….

So here I am with a saddle and no horse (LOL). It is yours if you want.



Dear OxDrover: That is why my favorite quote is:

“We have this life that soon will pass … Only what we do with LOVE will last”.

As the psychos kick everyone in the butt … and it takes those souls time to heal and go through the growth process, gain the wisdom to be learned … WE shall always remember to extend love and compassion to every one, every where and foil their (the big EGOs) attempts to destroy the human race.

Peace Oxy and EVERYONE posting on this site.

Ox Drover

Dear Wini,

Thanks for the offer of the saddle, but I have plenty, however, you might be able to sell it and recoup some of your stolen money.

Saddles may be worth $50 or $5,000 no way for me to get an idea without looking at it, but you can find a name of the maker on it somewhere, and google that and see what you can find. A little research might give you an idea of what it is worth. You might also get in touch with the local riding clubs or a stable and talk to someone. I wouldnt sell to the first person who put a “value” on it, because they might be trying to “low ball”you telling you that it was not worth much when it was worth a bundle, but do some internet research and talk to a few people and you should get a pretty good idea.

My P XBF left a horse drawn wagon here that he never came back and got, and after storing it for over two years, I figure the storage charges I could legally charge him were even with the value of the wagon so I just recently traded it for a nice riding horse of about equal value to the $1800 he paid for the wagon. With diesel fuel at nearly $5 a gallon I wasn’t going to haul it one way 400 miles to his house to deliver it for him. If he had wanted it he knew where it was for the past two+ years.

So get what you can out of it, you never know it might be a valuable one. Good luck.

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