By | July 7, 2008

Mental health professionals: Name the disorder. Please.

Most of the time we spend with sociopaths is spent in confusion. They tell us that they love us, while they cheat on us and take our money. They tell us that everything will be wonderful while our lives are falling apart. They tell us they’re sorry and will never do it again, yet they do it again, and again, and again.

We ask ourselves—what in the world is going on here?

They explain it all away. The explanation seems to make sense. But something still isn’t right, and they still don’t stop the behavior that makes us believe we are losing our minds.

There must be a reason. We wonder if they’re depressed, or bipolar, or they have low self-esteem. We’ve been told that they were abused as children. They overindulge in alcohol or drugs, and we’re sure that if they can only overcome their addiction, they’ll change.

It never happens.

We can’t figure it out.

The words that fit the behavior

Then someone says, “It sounds like he (or she) is a sociopath.” Or maybe they even use the word “psychopath.”

Sociopath! They’re the guys on The Sopranos.

Psychopath! They’re all serial killers.

But something tells us to do more research, so we go online. We buy a book. And there they are, the people who are driving us insane, perfectly described in the symptoms of a sociopath.

At Lovefraud, we hear it all the time:

“He’s got every symptom on the list!” “The description fits her to a T!”

Finally, we have a name for that person’s problem. He or she is a sociopath. A psychopath. An antisocial.

Finally, it all makes sense. The lies, the emptiness, the remorselessness, the evil. There is a reason. It is not us. It is a personality disorder.

Naming the disorder makes all the difference. Finally, we begin to understand what we are dealing with. This allows us to begin recovery.

Learn about them in school

Why do we spend so much time in confusion? Because there is no education program about this personality disorder for the general public.

I remember a story from the tsunami that struck Indonesia, Sri Lanka, India and Thailand on December 26, 2004. A vacationing family was on the beach there when the ocean suddenly receded. The little girl of the family had just finished studying tsunamis in school, and learned that the receding ocean meant that a wall of water would soon come crashing into the shore. She told her family, and they escaped to higher ground.

Sociopaths cause personal tsunamis for all of their victims. The sociopaths/ psychopaths/ antisocials of the world cause a huge percentage of all human pain, damage and devastation, yet most of the population does not know they exist. Why? Why don’t we learn about these predators in school? If we did, when we saw the symptoms, we could escape.

Arguing over terminology

Part of the problem with trying to educate people about these predators is that the mental health professionals do not agree on what to call it. First it was moral insanity. Then it was psychopath. Then it was sociopath. Then it was antisocial personality disorder.

The professionals can’t agree on how to define and diagnose the disorder, either. The American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV), is supposed to be the bible for clinicians. I find its description of antisocial personality disorder to be vague and difficult to understand.

Dr. Robert Hare’s description of the symptoms of a psychopath—the term he uses—is easier to understand, and the test he developed has been consistently shown to be useful in predicting recidivism among criminals. But Hare’s criteria and evaluation are resisted by many psychiatrists. From what I’ve heard, the basis for much of the disagreement is political.

Mental health profession should come to agreement

I believe this lack of agreement is a travesty, and the professionals are actually contributing to the confusion in which the predators operate. In a way, that makes the mental health professionals complicit in the havoc wreaked by the sociopaths/ psychopaths/ antisocials—whatever we call them.

Lovefraud calls on the professional associations to solve this problem. The American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry—please, come to an agreement.

Make a decision. Define this disorder. Publicize the symptoms. Let the general public learn what to look out for.

It would help all of us keep the sociopaths/psychopaths/antisocials, the human tsunamis, from upending our lives.

Notify of

“Lovefraud calls on the professional associations to solve this problem. The American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry—please, come to an agreement.”

Donna – I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree!!!

BUT, these ‘freaks of nature’ also keep them in business. As you said “I believe this lack of agreement is a travesty, and the professionals are actually contributing to the confusion in which the predators operate. In a way, that makes the mental health professionals complicit in the havoc wreaked by the sociopaths/ psychopaths/ antisocials—whatever we call them.”

I read an article once re: Narcissistic Personality Disorder that stated Narcissists rarely, if ever seek treatment (makes sense… why should they? They are never wrong (rolling my eyes))… but that mental health professional waiting rooms are literally lined up with VICTIMS of these psychopathic predators – my counselor agrees and says much of her case load is ‘damage control’ due to N/P manipulation tactics. Makes sense to me, especially since that’s exactly what I see her for too.

“Make a decision. Define this disorder. Publicize the symptoms. Let the general public learn what to look out for.” – that is TRULY ideal. Education is the KEY.

Has Lovefraud made an offical request to the associations listed?? If so, please do share any response you may get from any one of them. Keep us informed.

Is there a petition? I would GLADLY sign it, if so.


When I stumbled upon Hare’s and Stout’s works, the skies cleared, I was bathed in light, and angels were singing. It was a such a redefining moment. I had a name for my pain. I had a name for his game. Poof- I developed my own version of “I’m Ok, you’re Ok,” (I’m Ok, You suck!).

If I hadn’t, I would probably still be heartbreakingly stumbling about wondering what was wrong with ME. When I shared my findings with my therapist (it was only my 2nd visit so it wasn’t like she had no clue and had left me floundering) she agreed that what she had heard so far was the activities of a sociopath. She gave me a gift that day too. She said, “Just remember, he DID this to you. You are a victim, you didn’t deserve this. You will be a survivor, I can see it and hear it in you.”

My learning “what we were dealing with,” helped me help my daughter (ONE of his sexual assault victim’s), helped me deal with when I did have to see him (weekly supervised visitations with our 2 children), and guided me in dealing with legal issues concerning him/the divorce. He didn’t walk away with anything- AND, he is in prison. We won against a sociopath and his enabling and financially manipulative family. Largely because I learned “what I was dealing with.” Throw out normal. Throw out just. No mercy. Ever. (This is not how I live my life- just how I overcame evil.)

There should be a chapter or 2 in Health classes in highschool textbooks. Like Chapter 11 “Does he/she make you feel CRAZY?” and Chapter 12 “Rule of Threes*” Leaving little pamphlets “does he hit you?” in the bathroom at the ob/gyn’s office is “nice” but way too damn late to do us much good.

*Rule of Threes
“When considering a new relationship of any kind, practice the Rule of Threes regarding the claims and promises a person makes, and the responsibilities he or she has. Make the Rule of Three your personal policy. One lie, one broken promise, or a single neglected responsibility may be a misunderstanding. Two may involve a serious mistake. But three lies says you’re dealing with a liar, and deceit is the linchpin of conscienceless behavior. Cut your losses and get out as soon as you can. Leaving, though it may be hard, will be easier now than later, and less costly.
Do not give your money, work, secrets, or affection to a three-timer. Your valuable gifts will be wasted.”
Dr. Martha Stout, PhD Author: The Sociopath Next Door

Ox Drover

I wholeheartedly say AMEN!!!!!

There was a day when schizophrenia was considered caused by “bad parents”—now we know it is genetic, and there is a treatment for it. We no longer BLAME and DAMN the parents for causing this disease which causes so much pain and disorder in families.

Back in the days when syphilis was the scourge of sexual diseases, a person who had it was required by law to disclose their contacts or go to jail, so that the possible victims could b counseled and treated if need be.

Typhoid Mary was incarcerated because she would not stop working in restaurants and spreading her scourge to others.

But Politics gets involved now in mental and medical health. People with AIDS who regularly spread it through unprotected sex with unsuspecting victims are not regularly incarcerated or prosecuted for their behavior.

As a medical professional, if I had a patient with AIDS I was PROHIBITED FROM TELLING THEIR MARRIAGE PARTNER without their permission. Ditto Hepatitis B, etc.

When politics gets involved with medical and mental health and being “politically correct” is more important that saving people’s lives and mental and physical health, there is a BIG PROBLEM with this in my opinion.

We (as a culture) still argue over whether to teach sex education and sexually transmitted diseases to kids, how young, the content of the instruction, and what the way to prevent it should be. As a result of our arguing over this, in the meantime kids are “doing it” at younger and younger ages, producing more and more babies at early ages that they are not capable of parenting, spreading diseases for which there is no cure (not only AIDS but others).

While the professionals in many areas “fiddle,” the “Rome” of our culture is burning with preventable misery and lack of knowledge that would be live saving.

Kids who are so disruptive that they turn a classroom into an environment that precludes learning for any one in the class, are “mainstreamed” so that they are not “deprived” of being exposed to “normal” children. One of my former patients, who was deaf, blind, autistic, bit himself until he bled and continually screamed at the top of his lungs, and was totally incontinent of bowel and bladder was “mainstreamed” into a 10th grade classroom (his age level at the time). This child was totally incapable of getting any benefit from such an environment, and his continual screaming disrupted the classes for kids who could have learned there. THIS IS INSANITY!!! But it is “politically correct”—

While I agree with Donna, something needs to be done ASAP for the VICTIMS and potential victims, as long as our “politically correct” environment is the pervasive voice, the INSANITY WILL GO ON.

As a healthcare provider both in medical and psychological venues I was daily frustrated by laws and regulations that kept my hands bound to actually help people. The inconsistencies of the regulations were nightmares for care providers.

For example in a psych unit at a hospital, a combative patient with a wound infection, who would spread this to othrs on the unit was not allowed to be confined to their room, under standard isolation precautions as that same patient would be confined to contact isolation on a surgical unit. On a surgical unit, that patient’s hands could be restrained so that they were not able to hurt staff but not on the psych unit. As a former infection control officer I cringed when the horrific MRSA (staph infection) was spread from patient to patient and patient to staff.

I imagine, Donna, you can see you hit a nerve with me on this essay! So I guess I will get off my soap box at this point and see if I can get my blood pressure back down to within normal limits before I stroke out! LOL Very good point though!



Wouldn’t it be great if there was a show on Discovery Health channel instead of the usual juicy story on DateLine? They always tell these stories on DateLine but it never explains anything about how this could possibly happen and it leaves the women looking kinda stupid.

No one learns anything.


I am just happy any time I hear the word “Sociopath” on a movie or in a show. The word needs to get on people’s radar.

There was a LifeTime movie about a Sociopath. I can’t remember if they used the word but it was called, “The Man with Three Wives.” He was a dream husband to all of the women. At the end of the movie, I don’t think the audience would understand why he did all that. He just seemed like a nice guy that had three wives. The signs were there in the movie but he wasn’t abusive in any way that the audience would have understood as abuse.


“I believe this lack of agreement is a travesty, and the professionals are actually contributing to the confusion in which the predators operate. In a way, that makes the mental health professionals complicit in the havoc wreaked by the sociopaths/ psychopaths/ antisocial-whatever we call them.”

This is the very thing that has, does and always will burn me the most!!!!!

I knew something was wrong with our relationship. Tried over and over again to search for help in the professional (psychology/psychotherapy) field with so little or no help at all from these “trained“? people. In fact one “trained”?? Psychotherapies told my ex in one of our first and only session that he saw nothing wrong with her and “oh, do you have a sister I could date?”.. OMG!!!! I freaked and ended that BS right away but you should have see the smile on my ex PD! She was beaming!!!

Thanks professional psychotherapies, thanks soooo much!

As for me, I am done with these type of people! Please someone tell me were in God’s name are these professional psychotherapies trained??? How do these so called professional psychotherapies get their licenses to practice psychology??? A crackerjack box????

I tried not to judge all psychotherapies that same way, but is does get hard at times.

PS: Thanks for letting me get that off my chest!


Also I too agree that they are contributing to the confusion i.e. disorder.

So many times I have read or been told.

“We can’t help them, but we can treat you”

That is just so sad, So sad indeed but it is the truth!


I went to a counsler for 5 years all the while telling her of the risks he took financilly and how selfish he was, that he put us in bankruptcy lost cars, homes and jobs.
He traveled all the time.
He wouldnt give me information on my investment(you know about that im sure)
It got so bad emotionally i would go to her often to say am I crazy or is he making me crazy. He would come in now and then and she loved him.
He was traveling extensivley and he would never commit when he would be home as he was building a huge company.
She said he is working so hard he just needs you to be his mistress.
I was at that point numb and she knew it. He told me how tired he was I felt bad for him and then I felt bad more for myself and I ran to my faith.

Well he never went to TX he was living another life down the street.

So he WAS DRIVING ME CRAZY….when she found out she said i just didnt see it…WOW
I ended up with a nervous break down…the story didnt get much better.

I guess I got that off my chest now too.

I am currently looking for a new counsler that specializes in Pshychopathy.

My faith has got me my power back and talking to others with like experiences has been the most hopeful as you all know what I am talking about.

Here is wonderful message I read today;

Painful as the present time may be, you will one day see the reason for it. You will see that it was not the only testing, but also a preperation for the life-work which you are to do.
Have faith that your prayers and aspirations will someday be answered. Answered in a way that perhaps seems painful to you but is the only right way. Selfishness and pride often make us want things that are not good for us. They need to be BURNED out of our natures. We must rid of the blocks which are holding us back, before we can expect our prayers to be answered

Prayer of the Day
I pray that I may be willing to go through a time of testing. I pray that I may trust GOD for the outcome.


Ox Drover

James and Areyoukiddingme,

It is a shame that some professionals do not get it either. There are those that DO GET IT though, and until we find one that does GET IT and literally doesn’t fall under their spell, we need to keep searching.

A good counselor is a gift from GOD! A poor one is just going to make things worse. And as Lily Tomlin would have said, “an that’s the truth! (rasberry)” LOL

I have seen STUPID AND INCOMPETENT: physicians, mechanics, computer programmers, lawyers, nurses, mail men, child care workers, waitresses—you name the profession or job title and there are people in that field that do not know what the heck they are doing! Mental health professionals are the same, there are some wonderful ones and some that are worse than the psychopaths, and there are probably even psychopaths in the profession.

We (mental health professionals) are also victims just like people who are not professionals. No one, no matter how smart or how well trained is IMMUNE from their attacks and their manipulations at least the FIRST TIME…I am a slow learner and so it took me a while to GET IT completely. LOL But I know that there are lots of people who get away from one psychopath only to fall prey to another one. UNTIL you learn the CAUSE of what went wrong, why you failed to SEE what was wrong, you can’t protect yourself.

It would be wonderful if the profession of mental health would come out and LABEL IT AND AGREE, but unfortunately, right now thatn’s not the case, but WE can to some extent help educate others to the ROOT CAUSE of the pain in dysfunctional situations where one person is “high on the psychopathic traits.” My psychiatrist gets it, my counselor gets it, and I know there are others as well.

I agree with you , areyoukidding me, we will find a reason for this lesson, if it is only to protect ourselves from future attacks. I think many of us who are suvivors do grow and learn as a result of the painful experience we have had.

The people like my friend, M, who went from abusive relationship to another abusive relationship over and over and over, and never GOT IT herself, never learned to protect herself, those are the BIG losers. Those are the people I hurt for because they are “lost” in a FOG and doing know that they can escape. There are too many of those men and women in this world for the Ps to prey on.

With the internet, and support and educational groups becoming more accessible to more people, I hope in time this will change and more people will escape the “merrygoround” from Hell. I am grateful that I have gotten off that ride, and the others here whom I have seen tear up their tickets for a life time of misery, for a life time of growth and peace.


What is everyone talking about that mental health professionals should list what these characters are. It was health professionals with Ph.D.s and higher that destroyed my career. Dr.PH, Ph.D.s, M.D.s, R.N.s, all with the knowledge of what and how to stress out a person, all the statistics gathered for them to use against (oh, well, it was me this time). So as they were allowed to torment me in their Kangaroo Court for 6 years, 6 years of pure HECK (I don’t know what I can or can’t write, but you get the message). Gathering statistics for years that was to benefit humanity was used for their own egotistical gratifications. Day after day, year after year I was dragged into trumped up meeting with trumped up charges that never would be resolved because they never happened in the first place. So it was God and Me or is that God and I, staying cool, calm and collected and of course always the “lady”. Drove them all nuts cause I wasn’t an easy “nut to crack”. Finally, finally, taking their time, the bean counters put a stop to all their shennanigans. When the fianancial statistics came back and the beaners saw how much it cost to “get me”, they were told “Bye, Bye”. To this day, all I can thing of is “what took you folks so long to make this decision, I could have saved you millions years ago by focusing on them, not me”.

Peace and don’t expect an answer to your question about why they won’t categorize these characters. Hey, the fox is watching the hen house.


How I wish that there was a way to educate the public about this personality disorder. Like most of you, I only found the answers by searching the net and finding wonderful sites like this that literally saved my sanity.

Many professionals fall very short in this area for a number of reasons. Firstly, it is hard to make a diagnosis because of the almost super human abilities these personalities have at disguising their true nature. Secondly, I’ve noticed that doctors are very reluctant to label people even when it is blindingly obvious eg. I didn’t watch the whole OJ Simpson trial but did anyone call in a psychiatrist and have him assessed? Was it ever suggessted that he was a psychopath? and what that could mean? It’s almost as if doctors are so scared of being sued or being politically correct they are too scared to give an opinion. Thirdly, even with all their training, many doctors have not encountered the horror of a psychopath personally and to be fair I don’t think anyone can imagine what that feels like unless they have experienced it. Lastly, some doctors themselves are Psychopaths!! If they are clever enough, medicine is a wonderful playground for their evil intentions.

Given the global implications that this disorder has ie. how many world leaders are P’s? I do find it amazing that professionals who DO understand this disorder don’t make more of an effort to educate the public. It affects all of us around the world and on a massive scale.

I try to play a small part by telling my story to as many as I can and even if many don’t take it all in, it may just make someone think twice and question a persons motives before they get involved. We can all help spread the word by telling our stories and provide comfort to those just recovering from the nightmare. As I live in SE Asia, I had no possibility of any psychological help but I was able to recover by learning from others on this and the MSN site. The most important thing for me was having my experience validated by others who had been through the same thing. It helped me to understand that I was not crazy – I was a target.


Well swallow: Since we can’t alway get what we waaaaaant, we can do the next best thing. Have a signal so we know who’s on what team. One of those secret handshakes or secret phrases. Just to tip the scales a bit … the good folks knowing the other good folks. But then again, we’d have to change the secret pass code often, cause it gets around you know … and then we’re back to square one. Is that what is meant when “they” say “keep the status quo”???

Reminds me of “Man from Uncle and Thresh” … now I’m dating myself. Dating myself? Funny, that should slip and say something like that … mmmmhhhhhhhh, not a bad idea when you think about it. But, then heck, I wouldn’t have met any of you. Good to know there are other’s who still have their souls.



I have been reading newsletters and your blogs about socio/psychopaths for almost 18 months now. This is my first comment, ever.

I have worked in social services for almost twenty years (surprized? – NOT) and have read what the DSM has to say. I never thought I would be here. I have been married twenty years to a non-P., seperated for four, and in an on-again off-again relationship with a P. for two years. I have done a little therapy, a little journaling and have read some of his journals with his knowledge. Tonight I read that in 1999 he wrote about being with over 300 women, although was not happy about it. He has been in 12-step (NA) recovery for 15 years. He is with a woman or at a meeting now as I type.

My questions for you as I start/finish this process are:
1. How do I even begin to tell my story and get it out?
2. Please give me more information on a P. in recovery,
because he seems so real with that part of his life.

Thank you so much for all the posts you have written, the insight that no formal education can give, and the patience with me as I attempt to post.

Ox Drover

Dear Lib,

Welcome–sorry you’ve had to find this blog, though. I know it is pain that brings us all here.

A “P in recovery” is an oxymoron, it just is a FAKE—they have no conscience, therefore they can’t recover. They can stop doing drugs or drinking, but that just means they are a sober psychopath.

Everything thing they do to appear “repententant” is a FAKE.

EVERYTHING they say is NOT TRUE, or twisted, or outright lies. It is said to further their agenda.

I suggest you read here about the Ps, and how they operate. Then, GET OUT OF THE RELATIONSHIP ASAP.

There is no “cure” for them. They don’t want to be cured.

Google Robert Hare and his psychopathic check list and look it over and see just how many hits your P-BF has and then RUN. You say he has been with over “300 women” and “he is with a woman or at a meeting now” WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR? If he is a liar (all Ps are) how could you ever trust him? How could you have a good relationship with someone you can’t trust?

I am also a (retired) mental and medical health professional, and believe me “I should have known better” but my knowledge didn’t protect me because I didn’t use it. I was conned. I do think though, that your professional status will help you in the learning process though. And, once you “get it” all you will be in a great position to help others through your profession. Good luck.


Dear Lib,

I am new to and I have found this site to helpful. Dont be afraid to write everyone has words of wisdom.

I found I have read a couple of books The Soiciopath Next Door and Without Conscienc(Robert Hare) I then realized what I was dealing with.

Well I am still not sure what the difference from a S or a P
but I havent finished the book.

i went dancing last night and by fait I got a name of a counsler that speacilizes in the feild I am anxouis to ee her she works with prisoners, I hope I can learn something.

I gues like all of you I am passionate about helping others to see this true epidemic. I feel that if we get more true stories out in more hands more will know. The bottom line form reading is there are red flags and we have to absolutely listen to our gutt even if its a ficker!


Sorry that you have to be here but it is a great place to learn and help with recovery.
The most important thing is start NO CONTACT – of any kind. Stop reading the journals, answering phone calls etc,etc. Until you are completely free from his mind games, you will not be able to recover. Once you are free, then you can start to learn all about the disorder. There is a great deal of information on the net and good books ( already mentioned by aykm).
As Ox Drover says, he is unable to recover. His ‘therapy’ is a good cover and makes him sound like a decent person which appeals to caring women.
What you need to concentrate on is how has he treated you? If he has abused you in any way whatsoever, no matter what his diagnosis is, then get him out of your life. Don’t be sidetracked by the therapy routine and start to look after yourself instead.
I think one of the most important rules to follow when you think you are dealing with a P is to look at their ACTIONS not listen to their words.


Yes swallow, Very right. The best way to check if you have a loser in disguise, is to CLOSELY watch their actions. Play deaf to their words, just be the watcher and you will see how their world unfolds.


This is the first time Im posting here but have been reading for awhile. I’m convinced Ive been involved with a SP for almost 3 years now. The signs have been out since day one, but I ignored it. Reading these posts is like reading my last 3 years with this guy so I won’t go into details.

Here’s my problem. The ONLY way I could find out if he was lying to me on a continual basis was to investigate. My gut was so strong but I had no evidence. I have followed him to see if where he was going was where he said he was going. I have created a phone account for him. I had his SS# and he doesnt have a computer so it was an easy task. I have gotten inside his apartment (He gave me a key a long time ago, I had it copied and gave him the original back) to see if the porn he said he got rid of after he met me was still there (it is…a lot of it). For the past 6 months he hasnt allowed me in his apartment because he says its too messy and he hasnt had time to clean it. Truth be told, its a complete and utter s**thole. I doubt he’s cleaned his bathroom or sheets in a year. I think he purposely doesnt clean it because its an excuse not to let me in. It’s like he’s hiding out.

I feel so guilty about this. I feel like I’m becoming the sociopath by spying on him but it was the ONLY way I could tell what he was like when I wasn’t looking. I placed a transmitter inside his apt to hear what he said when noone was around. I needed to see what was behind the mask.

One time as he was apparently masturbating (which he does quite frequently even though he denies sex with me stating he’s under stress and cant get it up) I heard him say to himself, “I miss you, I love you…Now get back in your box!”. This abhored me as I knew he was talking about me. A sick feeling came over me in that I realized he viewed me as a toy, or object to be played with and taken out of its box when he chose. His words, “I miss you, I love you”, were stated to me daily…constantly. So I knew this was about me.

I know I have to have no contact with him and so far it’s been 3 days even though he called yesterday and didnt leave a message. Our relationship has been rocky for a LONG time, but as most of us, I tried and tried, hoping things would get better as after every drunken manic socipathic crazy episode, he would call me, sometimes 20 times a day, crying, sobbing, promising it will never happen again and that he needs help. After the last episode two weeks ago, he cried and cried telling me he needs help, that he’s made a decision to go to AA, that he told his mother, his best friend and his “best female friend”…thats another issue altogether) that he is sick and needs help. Guess what….he was sober for 3 days and now its back to business as usual with a bravado, arrogant attitude. Its manic then depressive, then manic, then depressive, with sociopathy thrown in to the garbage heap.

Within the past 6 months its been a constant power struggle because I call him on his behavior and have unmasked him to some degree because of what I know behind closed doors. Although I havent told him how I found out. He thinks I’m psychic and I believe a little afraid of me, but will never show it. The power plays have gotten worse since I’ve done this.

I have to read this blog daily to keep my sanity and as a reality check that what I’m dealing with here IS a very very sick individual. But it’s getting to the point that I don’t like how I’ve had to find out. My dilemna is, that I never would have REALLY found out if I hadn’t done it in the first place. It’s like the saying “fight fire with fire” and “keep your friends close but your enemies closer”. This has become war and I feel like I’m heading up the psychops CIA war strategy department. Am I just as sick as he is? This is bothering me.

I am NOT like this normally. Normally I trust people…sometimes too much. The things that are going through my head…ways to get revenge, etc…just to piss him off are starting to bother me. I feel betrayed, lied to, used, even though I now see my part in this. Classic rescuer turned victim turned persecutor. help! I want off this rollercoaster.


Indiechick you just described my past 3 years with my x. I went crazy, insane trying to catch him at his lie’s. You have to stop (now) you are NOT crazy, he made you feel that way, it’s going to be a rough lesson, but read and learn and please do everything possible to have no contact. You have lost your identity, it will come back in time but you have to do the work. I read (Romeo is Bleeding) you can google that. It made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Read that and everything you can, I recommend (learning from Madness) by richard skerrit…… hang in there, you will get your life back….but get rid of him and never look back….


Thanks for the recommendation henry. I read Romeo’s Bleeding online. It seems I’m becoming what I initially hated. I’m going to resist the urge to investigate him further and plot retaliation. I already know the facts. He’s whacked in the head and I am too if I choose to continue to engage in this. More than detachment is needed. Complete escape with no turning back is the solution while healing the open wound in the process and becoming aware of my own issues that attracted him in the first place so as never to be in this situation again.



wow that is so horrible!
I went to my counsler for 5 years saying is he crazy or is he making me crazy I started asking GOD to reveal the truth and once he did in a BIG way he was living 2 lives I WAS DONE. After everything I have read I got very concerned about my safety even. In the many writings they say once you know run run as fast as you can! They dont change they dont get better most times it gets worse. Once I found out about my now ex I had no reason to talk to him at all i think it disturbed him as he wasnt my center of attention anymore. But for me I had NO REASON to talk to him WHY so HE CAN LIE again and again. He is so creepy even when I found out the truth and he knew i knew the truth he still lied…im not sure if they know the difference.

It helped me no to continue to listen and over time i got less and less crazy.

I hope you read more and write more as these humans CAN NOT change, you know I do beilive in miracles from GOD but I think they would have to want it and work years at it to get there and most of them are to vain.

This is my belief



What you are going through now, I went through 5 years ago. I didn’t place surveillance in his house, but only because I didn’t have any way of getting in! Believe me, I would have if I could have. I spent over a year ‘investigating’. Once I’d worked out that our whole life together had been a lie (at this point I still hadn’t figured out he was a sociopath), I then went round talking to all the people who’s lives he’d touched during our time as a couple. I wanted to make them understand that it wasnt ‘me’, it was him. What a complete and utter waste of time! The one or two really close friends I still had, already realised that anyway. The others didn’t care one way or the other and so weren’t worth my time.

I then spent another 3 years still having contact with him (we have a child together). I still wanted to make him see where he was going wrong. Another complete waste of time and exceedingly wearing emotionally.

I have had NO CONTACT for a year now. I decided on that option myself because I had not yet discovered Lovefraud. It was the turning point. It was the time when the healing began (although it didn’t seem like it at the time!).

I wish I had found Lovefraud years ago. Everything I have done to get the S out of my life has been exactly as everyone here advocates – it just took me so much longer to get there.

So, my message to you is, keep reading the posts, listen to the advice and act upon it. You will heal much more quickly if you do.

Don’t feel bad about behaviour which you wouldn’t normally display. I did that too. They make you insane! Some of the things I did when I was with him made me look as if I truly was the ‘mad, f***ing b*tch’ that he was so fond of telling me I was. Funnily enough, since he’s gone I’ve never once done or said any of the things of which I was so ashamed at the time.

I know you have this overpowering feeling of wanting to prove that you’re right and he’s wrong, but you don’t need to. You already know you’re right. We know you’re right. He’ll NEVER believe you’re right so don’t even waste a moment trying to convince him. And nobody else matters. So let it go. Stick rigidly to NO CONTACT and start to heal NOW, not in several years from now!

My thoughts are with you.


Dear Lib: Welcome from all of us. First 2 things you can do is go through all the different sites and read what is offered. Then read what the other users logged in wrote, their comments, suggestions etc. This will calm your nerves knowing that the rest of us are all going through the same situation. Second … DO NOT BELIEVE HIM. Period. As you read, you’ll get more of an understanding of the lies being told you. So protect yourself … get a grip on your fears right now … and remember, everyone on this site are here to help you. The professionals are listed on the left side of the site if you want to write to them. You can view all their credentials, years practicing etc. as you read. Calm down, where all in this together getting over what was dumped in our lives.

Peace to your heart and soul on your journey.


I enjoyed all of the posts regarding this article, from the diagnosis (or mis-diagnosis, or non-diagnosis) to the feelings that we are insane. Ahhh yes, and the investigations. My friends refer to me as their “FBI Agent”. I have discovered things that were unimaginable and unfathomable. And yes, everybody is sick to death of hearing about him, and about sociopaths, and “would you just get over it already?” And still my investigations continue, and each discovery both hurts and heals me at the same time, if you can understand that. It hurts me because of the lies I’ve discovered, the manipulations, the extreme maliciousness and cruelty, but it heals me because it is further evidence of what a lizard, or sub-human species he is. They are not worthy of our time, energy, and thoughts. NC is a must. And that rumination (a word I had never encountered prior to Lovefraud) is a difficult one to get over, as thoughts of him go round and round in my mind. I have taken to journaling, deep breathing exercises, and intentionally replacing thoughts of him with something…someone…anything, even counting to get him out of my psyche.

I most certainly wish there were classes in Sociopathy, but then there are few high school classes on child rearing or how to balance a checkbook and survive in this world. For the most part, people do not want education on disorders, but it is particularly ironic (and sad) that the “professionals” cannot identify this behavior. It would certainly save a lot of heartache.

Welcome to the new “members”, there is a lot of education and compassion here, really a lovely group of people. Thanks for the great article Donna, you’ve done it again.

Peggy Pseu


Yes Uk. Wanting vindication…wanting to prove to his special “friends” that I’m right. He has managed to turn them against me as every argument we ever had, as I later found, he would get on the horn and tell them what happened, twisting it and distorting it to his advantage.

The two good friends he’s had since childhood are both either alkies themselves or enablers…very dysfunctional. One is a male who is somewhat decent, but feeds into the sp’s need for attention and approval. The other is his AHEM…best female friend since childhood. She has this alcoholic boyfriend of 7 years whom she lives with, yet her and the SP STILL have to have a half hour conversation daily. He denied he talks to her every day…thus my looking into his phone records which revealed I was right and he lied…continuously.

He claims they have never had sex and they are just platonic. She claimed the same thing. She lives 2 hours away and I have never witnessed any outright flirting or overtly sexual behavior on their parts. I didnt like the fact that he was including her in our relationship to that degree and when I brought up the issues of boundaries in our relationship he got angry. He told me from the beginning that the girl years before me who was his fiance, had issues with “Margaret” too and he chose “Margaret” over her. I understand relationships with friends and I would never make anyone choose. We all need healthy friendships but this was beyond healthy.

There used to be another “best female friend” but he no longer calls her since he found out that her and I have talked and are friends now. She has admitted that he has issues and when he found that out, all of a sudden “Sherrie” who was once beautiful and special (as every person who feeds the SP’s ego is ) is now an ugly fat bitch.

Heres a question I have. Whats with the sex issue here? We had a euphoric sex life in the beginning. After I sold my business in December things started changing. But then, his lies, inconsistencies and erratic behavior were becoming clearer. I knew he had porn even though he claimed he disdained it. I suspected he had a masturbation compulsion which he admitted to having “years ago”, but doesnt anymore. yea right. And yet…he refused to have sex with me.

It was excuse after excuse: He was going thru midlife, his apt was messy, he had low self esteem, he was impotent, he was under stress, blah blah blah. He kept saying, “be patient”, I’m working on myself”. What is THAT?

I thought I’d call his bluff. I noticed that whenever I expressed a need, he would do the opposite, but claimed he loved me at the same time. So I told him I didnt want to have sex with him anymore. Lo and behold, he’s on me like flies on s**t.

After reading all these blogs regarding sp’s and sex and power I believe our whole sex life was about power. He would very very seldom initiate, even in the beginning. When he did, it was aggressive, almost scary. It was as if there were two people inside one body. One was very submissive, even childlike and boyish. That one wanted to be subdued and seduced. The other one (always when he was drinking) was dominant and aggressive. I would say he probably has rape fantasies when in this state along the BDSM lines.

What is the issue with these “best female friends”? He has these non sexual relationships with these women that supercedes any long term committed relationship. That was a big issue after 3 years of this relationship. I didnt mind it at first, but after awhile, I felt like I was in a foursome.

I dont mean to be graphic with all this. And Im old enough to understand that sexual fantasy and various um…”ways” are acceptable in a healthy loving relationship where there is mutual love and respect. Im not a prude. But looking at this in retrospect, I started seeing psychosexual issues emerging. Are there any readings on this? Or can anyone lend any insight into this? I know I should just let it all go and move on, instead of trying to psychoanalyze this, but I find by analying it, I can better understand what makes him tick so as to avoid getting caught in a trap again.


One other thing. (All this stuff is starting to come out in retrospect.) I did find teen porn in his apt…you know the kind…barely legal. I have 17 and 19 year old girls. It SICKENS me to think that stuff is out there and he was looking at it. Hes 42 for Gods sake. He denied he had it. Denied he was into teens or even 20 something girls. Yet I would catch him…glaring at some young waitress at local restaurants. My gut told me that he had a penchant for younger girls (as I suppose most warped middle aged men who are losing their youth do). He told me once in the beginning that I made love like a teenager. I was 45! That statement never set well with me but at the time I took it as a sort of weird compliment.

The reason Im writing this is because, #1 I never told anyone and #2 I believe he has pedophilia tendencies or possibly fantasies. He talks about R Kelly and brings up those horrible “perverts” a lot. He has defended his 40 something year old bar buddies who go after really young 20 something women claiming HE would never do that, but in the eyes of the law its legal and it has always happened. He brushed it off like it was nothing and that I was being insecure and stupid about it.

He also has at times, has very effiminate behavior and many people have thought he was gay. This disturbed him GREATLY and yet when in a bar drinking with his buddies, he would ACT gay with them…then get angry, violent and belligerent if anyone called him gay. It was all so odd. Almost like he only did it for attention.

I guess my question is…are there typical sexual tendencies among sociopaths? I’m afraid of what he might do to someone else down the road if his perversions escalate. I know our society condones things like this more and more so I guess I’m old school. I hate porn…any kind…because it demeans women. He obviously was ashamed of it because he lied about it. I cant believe anything this guy says. I dont know whats truth or not anymore sometimes.


OK…I must be ruminating here. I apologize but this is the first time I am talking about this…TO ANYONE. It’s been in my head, in my head, in my head….trying to figure it all out. I guess I can come to some conclusions intellectually but will NEVER be able to comprehend what he does and why on an emotional level. Thank you all for your comments and statements and thank you for this blog. It’s been a life saver for me. I can now finally verbalize what’s been going on and actually know that others KNOW too.



Hi, I’m here! In response to your question regarding him withholding intimacy, yes, I agree with you it’s all about power and control. A game.

I’m not sure about the female friends, there could be a variety of reasons, which may or may not include him having intimate relationships with them. I thought mine didn’t have female friends, but found out otherwise lately, due to a big discovery. Found out he’s had a “friendship” with the woman he’s now enaged to for almost 3 years, while he was living with me, unbeknownst to me.

The pedophelia really concerns me, particularly with you having teenage daughters. I’m sorry I don’t kinow your history, have you gone NC or are you still involved with him? RUN girl, RUN and save yourself and your daughters. My understanding is that S’s are sexually promiscuous, so that could include a whole range of deviant behaviors include pedophelia.

In regards to ruminating…I’m just beginning to have my head clear, although I still come in and out of the fog, and it has been 10 months. Ruminating, seemingly, is a normal part of this process as we have all experienced it. Even the obsessing, (abnormal as it may seem), seems to be part of the healing process. This is experience is so foreign to our consciousness and our “reality view” and expectations that it takes an extreme amount of research, investigation, reading, and talking with others who have experience this to begin to comprehend the mystery of Sociopaths. But once you “get it” it becomes crystal clear and one can easily identify the behaviors, and even predict them.

Peggy Pseu


Hi Peggy, thanks for the comment. I’ve been NC as you call it for 3 days now. He called yesterday but I didnt answer. He didnt leave a message. I know its a game. Hes played it before. Like baiting a trap. He calls…doesnt leave a message, I wait awhile then call back. Its cat and mouse. Only this time Im not calling back. Soooo…what will happen is…he will call back more frequently, maybe leave a sweet sounding message. When I dont respond to that he’ll leave a mean message only this time I wont call back or respond … as much as I want to. Its like quitting an addiction but I know it will get easier in time. The words from people on this blog are like gold to me now.

newworld view

hi indiechick…..the sexual stuff confounded me….in the beginning he also had FRIENDS he couldnt give up for me….then he changed his mind and said he compromised for me…..i found out oneof his sons old teachers, into s and m, he stayed in touch with and found pictures of them on his computer doing things you wouldnt even believe….he supposedly ended that and moved in…through phone records i found the entire time he never stopped communication with another….others left lengthy phone mesages about how he owed them a dinner and how in shape they were getting….he always wanted me to go to swing clubs and participate or nude beach or a particular nude pool that was known as a swingers place…he always whined that his past lovers had done this for him….knowing that i wasnt interested he never stopped….i found him communicating to women online…once i found a little girls purse outside his front door with some money, a few dollars in it…i said we should call police as someone may have been mugged…he said he would but never did…later i wondered if this may be part of a SCENE, they weirdos play out…i found photo of him at an orgy………i sometimes wondered if he was gay….he told me we are all on a continuum and bisexual…some man would write him that he saw him and i somewhere and did i know who he was…..he told him not to write him anymore……it gets weirder and weirder…..after he was gone i found a shoe box in his computer room with feces dried in it….was it from my dog who had died…was he web camming on the computer…just where di it come from…he always save photos of last relationship and i found some on the near to last day with him and someone..who knows if it was new or old…he started returning for regularly scheduled sensual massages….was always into threesomes or multiple sex…said he wasnt afraid of a mans PART touching him………so indiechick, im more confused than anyone……..and each time this smart, educated professional woman bought that it was a onetime thing……brought up as a nice catholic school girl i really never thought things or creatures in human form existed….i guess there was no other way for me to learn ..i couldnt fathom its depth unless experiencing it…now looking back i could tell you many more weird incidents…they had me questioning myself…i was too prude or judgmental…i now will no longer have blinders on, but there are as many who still do as those who dont….i dont expect them to get it, just as i wouldnt have if not living it…..and the greatest thing is that it has caused me to stop burying the past that got me here in the first place….the only way out in this case is THROUGH….this site is better than any other money can buy…..wish we could all have a pool party somewhere…….terri

newworld view

and indiechick…it not LIKE quitting an addiction…it is quitting a true addiction…i wish you the best in maintaining no contact… you sound pretty determined already…..i wish i had had that strength then..ow well i do now……….terri



You’re exactly right, it is a cat and mouse game. And the ONLY way you win is by staying away, NC, do not respond. It is imperative to your mental health. But I’ll warn you, it is not easy.

These people are sick and NOTHING good can EVER come from a relationship with them. They are heartache waiting to happen, at best. At worst, there is great personal and financial devastation, they can slander, demean and berate you and cause you to question your own sanity. And you also have the safety of your daughters to worry about. The sooner you break off this relationship, the better. Get away, and stay away, as quickly as possible. Do not see him, speak to him on the phone, answer his e-mails, or anything. It is a twisted and perverse game they play, one you don’t want to participate in. Read here, and you’ll see…they are all reading from the same manual, and the behaviors are very similar. Oh…and Indiechick, they are pathological liars “he is the lie”. So do not believe any of the lies or manipulations from him. Good luck, girl, it is a tough road ahead of you; but trust me (and everyone else here can attest to this), it is a road to healing and sanity.

Ox Drover

Dear indiechick,

I would like to also give my welcome to you, and you did NOTHING “Wrong” in checking out his stories. If he had not been lying through his teeth, you would have only proved he was truthful. That’s the thing they do to us is to tell us lies and expect us to believe their WORD ONLY when our GUT tells us it is lies—OUR GUTS ARE RIGHT.

ALWAYS LISTEN TO YOUR GUT, then check it out.

ALWAYS LISTEND TO HOW THEY ACT, and not their words.

And NWV is also correct, it iIS an addiction. But we can kick it with NO CONTACT—and sometimes that feels like COLD TURKEY, but it is the ONLY way to kick the habit, just like it was Heroin or Alcohol. Any TASTE of it puts us right back to square one.

AT first it will be “physical” no contact, and you may still think about him 24/7, but eventually the continual thinking about him will subside, and then there will come a time when you can think about him, but not with the desire for him, or the anger, or the pain, it is just like the script to an old movie you once saw, you can tell someone else the plot but not feel the emotions you felt when you “lived” that horror story!

I’m glad you are here, you have found a wonderful place.



Wow…you just saved me lots of writing in your post of 1:24 pm. I could almost lift that paragraph (with the exception, of course, of the dog poo…that’s random) and call it mine. Same with you, Indiechick. Of course, there are other paragraphs here that I could pop in, too.

I think once the S has steamrolled over all his boundaries, he’s not interested in putting on the brakes anymore and all bets are off.


One of these days I hope to be a source of consolation and knowledge for others who are still involved with these people. One site that I had checked oot months ago when I first suspected he was lying to me consistently was called Eyes For Lies. It talks about microexpressions and how you can tell if someone is lying to you.

Weird thing with my (ugh…I hate to call him “mine”) SP is that he could lie while looking me straight in the eye, swearing on the bible (even though he considered himself a “christian”). But I started noticing inconsistencies with his words, emotions and facial expressions. When he would call me crying and apologizing I noticed that his nose was not stuffed up. When you sob and cry, the way he was supposedly doing, your nose would stuff up horribly. After all these crocodile tears he then went on (with an unstuffed head) to tell me out of the blue that he was sexually molested by a friends brother at the age of 8 and thats why he has these problems. I listened to that message (yea…he left THAT on a cel message) and thought to myself, “after 3 years he finally tells me THIS….and its with such calmness and coolness…emotionless almost…as if he were talking about how he stubbed his toe or something. The words didnt fit with how a normal person, who has been repressing or hiding that information for years, would react. He also told me I’m the only person who he’s told…RIGHHHHT.

I have most of his recent voicemails saved on something called
Its a site which downloads your voicemails into your email. I am keeping these for when he calls and leaves messages. I listen to them to hear inconsistencies. Its also proof of how whacked he is if I’m ever called to question by his buddies or anyone else.



Just a couple comments.

Sexual dysfunction is a part of sociopathy and in the archives Donna wrote a very good thread and it went something like with them it is an “anyone and anything” kind of dysfunction because of course it is about power and their game, not about love. Can’t remember the date or title, maybe someone else on here can.

Also, remember the reason you are at such a disadvantage in the cat and mouse game is because you have invested emotions, he has invested none. It’s just an emotionless game for him with him taking pleasure in watching you squirm and feeling no regret.

I don’t know if the surveillance is legal or not, so before you post much be aware that he can search and find what you post if he knows or can guess your screen name. Don’t give him any ammunition to use against you, EVER. He may use whatever means he can against you either to draw you back in or in retaliation.

Try to be more at peace by not buying into finding out everything he’s done, it will only drive you crazy because they are seemingly limitless at the havoc they can create in secret. How can, why do they do this to you? Because they can, it’s their ego addiction that makes their world go ’round. Sounds like you know enough already.

If you can, try to focus on you now, not him. Welcome and good luck.


newworld view

some very good points….
from oxy
“AT first it will be “physical” no contact, and you may still think about him 24/7, but eventually the continual thinking about him will subside, and then there will come a time when you can think about him, but not with th”

from eyes.. LOL….i think the same when i see some long posts that experienced what i did…how it saved me typing..and p.s…..i truly believe it wasnt dog poop…i found it months after he was gone….i think he was web camming…eeewwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“I think once the S has steamrolled over all his boundaries, he’s not interested in putting on the brakes anymore and all bets are off.”

from benz:
“the cat and mouse game is because you have invested emotions, he has invested none. It’s just an emot” and

Try to be more at peace by not buying into finding out everything he’s done, it will only drive you crazy because they are seemingly limitless at the havoc they can create in secret. How can, why do they do this to you? Because they can, it’s their ego addiction that makes their world go ’round. Sounds like you know enough already.

sooooooo true

and indie i hate to belabor the point, but since you asked, he was also a compulsive masturbator and i mean a compulsion as id NEVER knew could be real…how many times i walked in as he was setting down nude for a session at his computer…or with his pants down around his ankles with something stuck up his rear, in front of his computer, not knowing his front door was unlocked and accused me of sneaking up on him…….

i never really discuss this because i am sooooo ashamed that i let him convince me that this would all stop when he moved in……..

they are whacked creatures for sure

i am actually laughing at myself as i write this…because if it hdnt happenned to me i wouldnt believe that anyone could be so dumb and fall for it much less me… not kidding at a point know where i am truly laughing so hard…..i can say there is No other place i would even feel safe sharing this……..rotflmao……im even laughing at myself harder than i did at the dimitri character….and it feels sooooo good

and did anyone notice i think i have learned to cut and paste…yes there are some of us out here that still arent computer litterate

oh and benz, it is funny because many times when id ask him why people would cheat on someone they love..or any similar question..his pat answer was always…”because they can”

speaking of boundaries, it was almost like he confused me sometimes with one of his kids…cause he would scold me for drawing a line in the sand and when he would get to it..instead of holding my ground, i would back up the line……i did this out of fear that if i didnt he would leave me…he always had one foot out the door and this was His manner of control……i could write for days about his interactions with ex wives and kids…….maybe another conversation will trigger that….i feel we really do learn from sharing each others stories
im still laughing at myself… again wish we could all meet for a picnic or pool party sometime………terri


Good point Benzthere. Because they hooked us into a game of illusion, they know their rules upfront, we dont, we are at a disadvantage already. In addition to that, they are careful not to invest themselves emotionally in a relationship, that is why my exN’s words never matched up with his actions and so we are at a disadvantage that way as well.

Indie, I went on the investigator route, I had even phoned a private detective and was considering having him checked. If I could do more i would have done, as Iwas itching to know what he had on his phone and other places. I checked up on him plenty of times, but I just couldnt catch him, I even sat outside his place for 2 hours in a friends wig and in her car. But he was driving me crazy and dropping hints to make me jealous and he was into bdsm, it was one of the first things he told me and I wasnt sure, because it just isnt my thing and quite honestly I couldnt understand what he got out of it.

What I learnt though, is that I was waiting for evidence. His crazy making behaviour was enough for me realise that I didnt need evidence, he was making me feel very insecure, and that was enough.


I was reading the comments here concerning lying and I know for me that I was lied to so often by a friend, that I doubted my own sanity for so long. Constantly having to prove what he said. Until I finally gave up and finding help here and a few other places, realized that you can’t reform a liar. My sister has a quote, the truth needs no accusers. It’s very appropriate. I’ve learned one lie always leads to another. How sad for those have who to lie their way through life.

On another note, I’d like anyone here to maybe put a label of sorts on this woman I know. I’ve known her about 5 1/2 years. She rented an apartment for about two weeks. She found out her 3rd husband was seeing a stripper at night while she taught night school and he impregnated the stripper. So she moved him away from that area. But it wasn’t enough of what he did, to deter her from continuing her lifestyle with him. She ended up getting pregnant herself in the two weeks they were here.

She was devastated. She was 42 at the time. I kind of felt sorry for her, but figured she should know by now that having sex makes babies. But she was in love or so she told me. She had to tell me what an incredible sex life they had. I said it couldn’t have been all that great if he was having sex with strippers.

But anyway, that began a trip of sorts these last 5 years. She ended up divorcing him after she had to have him arrested. After he got out of jail, he started calling her and they wanted to have sex again, but didn’t want to commit adultery, so they married. She didn’t want her family to know she was married again, so they did everything in secret. In the mean time she was going to Match looking for someone. She found the one she wanted.

She was still married at the time, but moved closer to the man she met. She rented a place and let her estranged husband, (by that time) move in, but was having sex with the man she met on Match. She ended up divorcing her 3rd husband who was also her 4th husband. Her plans were to eventually marry the man she met. The day she thought he was going to marry her, he married another woman, because, as he told her, he needed insurance and my friend wasn’t working at the time, and couldn’t provide it. She has believed everything these men tell her and some.

In the years I’ve known her, she has moved about 15 times. She holds several masters degrees and is a behavioral specialist along with teaching college and such. She’s not what you’d call dumb as far as intelligence goes, but she buys into every word every man tells her. I don’t know what she’s looking for but I don’t think she’s going to find it. She is man crazy and has very little to show for her years of living.

She currently got a job in a prison and almost immediately fell in love with an inmate, who once he is released has to be deported back to his country in Central America. She has plans to marry him and move there with him. She has two small children and has dragged them everywhere. This inmate is 23 years younger but she’s never felt like this before. I told her I’ve heard the same words concerning every man she’s been with. She argues and says it’s never been like this. I’ve been a sounding board but can’t relate so I let her talk. I think the only reason she keeps coming back is because I’m a constant.

I’ve finally told her I’m not the friend for her. I can’t relate to her lifestyle. She has no problem proclaiming love for this inmate, but two weeks ago she met the man from Match for a night of sex. She’s made statements that I wonder where they are coming from, such as with the man from Match. She was living in his house at the time and said she didn’t care who he had sex with as long as he came home to her every night.

I sometimes wonder if it’s me and maybe I’m just too straight laced and up tight. But I could never just wonder around willy nilly looking for men. I told her I just can’t understand where she’s coming from. She seems to think I’m jealous of her because she keeps getting a man. I told her I don’t need a man. I’ve wondered how to classify her. I’ve never been around a woman who falls in and out of love constantly. And now with a prisoner, who if she isn’t careful is going to get her fired. They are kissing and writing letters back and forth. I don’t think it would bother her if she did get fired. She seems to thrive on this lifestyle. I can’t follow her and just don’t support her in her endeavors. Her children suffer as they are extremely hyper and I think it’s because of the way they’ve lived. There is no constancy in their life. She refuses to see this. I’ve given up trying. She’s just going to have to pick up the pieces herself. She just can’t seem to see that she isn’t getting results with the way she lives.

One minute she’s hating her children and telling them she’d like to kill them and the next she’s looking for a father for them. I really want to wash my hands of her and I see it happening. But I’ve wondered from her actions what disorder she might have. This can’t be normal to live like she does. She has the knowledge and education to command a high salary and live quite nicely. She’s 48 and has nothing. And she doesn’t care. It’s like she is still a teenager and doesn’t want to quit. I thought I’d be a light for her, but she doesn’t want that light. She proclaims God in her life, but lives a very worldly existence as far as sex and relationships go. I don’t know if a woman’s husband would be safe with her around. I just know I’m reaching the end of my rope where she’s concerned.


I think we have all been through the obsessive investigation stage. It is perfectly normal and necessary to find out the truth when you know you are being deceived. All P’s indulge in this crazy making behaviour of deceive and deny.
The only way you can stop this cycle of madness is to start NO CONTACT. As long as you have any connection to him, the mind games will continue. In fact, he will enjoy driving you crazy as it reaffirms the power he has over you. You will never be able to see things clearly unless you cut the connection.
Getting this person out of your mind will take a long time even after the physical contact has begun. I’ve read that we obsess because a normal, logical mind cannot make any sense of a P’s behaviour and so we search frantically and repeatedly for some kind of explanation. Eventually, when the fog clears ( when you STOP listening to him) you will be able to come to terms with the fact that you will never have an explanation. He will never make any sense.
One other word of warning. Resist the temptation to take the investigation too far and get yourself into trouble. He will have no qualms about reporting you to the police for stalking and making you look like the nutcase!
From what you have written, I think you have more than enough proof of what a slime ball he is, so now is the time to take back control of your mind and your life.


Hi Apt/Mgr

“On another note, I’d like anyone here to maybe put a label of sorts on this woman I know.”

Just off the top of my head, um…a big ol’ mess?


Some of you know my story and who I am. The past several post have been about lie’s and deceit. And some of the weird sexual things they did behind our back’s. I have never told anyone this and probably shouldnt now, but it has been a big anxiety issue with me. My X (P) (BPD) had a cell phone when we first met, this is before he moved in with me. When he would visit, if his cell rang he would go outside and take the call, then tell me a friend called or this or that happened and he had to leave. I thot it was rude and it annoyed me but at that time I had no (romantic) attachment to him. We were friends and he was free to do whatever. Well after he was kicked out of X’s house and became my problem, the cell phone would ring at all time of the nite. So he would turn it off . After weeks of this I turned on his cell phone when he was sleeping. Well it rang, I answered, He had his cell number written on bathroom walls!!!! I woke him up and said you have a call, and you need to pack your shit your leaving tonite. Well he did admit to it but said he had just done it that day. He left with his things and moved to the lake and lived in a tent for 2 weeks. He would come back or call me and beg for forgiveness, saying he was really f–ked up and i was the best person he had ever met. He pleaded he begged it was pitiful. And yes I took him back, even after that, I have never been able to look at a cell phone the same way scince. Why did I take him back? because I am a caring compassionate person. I thot I was in love and when you love someone you have to forgive. It was never the same with him after that, but that is when the fog started for me. That is just one episode of his sexual addiction I want to share. Some of you may never respond to me again. I can’t believe I put up with what I did for so long. I need to purge this (cell phone incident), get it out of my mind. I am no prude, but when I commit to be with only one person I am 100% faithfull. In my reading about these people they really don’t have any emotion’s, they have no idea what they are doing is wrong they just do it. There can be no revenge, no justice. The only thing we can do is move on.


Thats the thing henry…the calling back and ADMITTING they did wrong, BEGGING you to forgive them. TELLING you youre the best thing they ever had…and then going right back out and doing the same crap over and over. That’s what was confusing. I believe that at the time, he meant it. It might have been only for a few hours to clear his “conscience” or it might have been a total academy award winning performance. If that’s the case he’s in the wrong profession. At any rate, I cannot fathom how someone can be SO convincingly sorry and not mean it or completely dismiss what they told you. It’s not sane or rational. Part of me wants to believe there is a smidgeon of conscience in this man but even if that were the case, it never lasts very long.


i was wondering, why do we women give up so much for a relationship? i know that i did it and im ashame of myself. its like when we are with them no one else matters in the world. why do we forget about who we are, and what we like to do for a relationship? i dont want to be like that again.

Indiechick, i feel exactly like you. i want to believe so bad that they are sorry, and that they get what they did wrong. then when you get back together its like a good week or two and then you catch them in a lie, or something else that they promised to stop doing.


Indiechick It didn’t stop there, I put his cell phone in the microwave. So he would just get online and hook up when I was at work. He was constantly on the prowl. And I became a raving mad person trying to catch him. It tool at big toll on my physical health not to mention my emotional. He can look you right in the eye and lie. I was so frickin confused, I felt responsible for him, like he was an abandoned child. I lost sight of everything, it affected my work, my kid’s everything. He has been gone about 3 month’s, slowly my identity is coming back. I am on antidepresant’s, going to therapy, and I have this website. (these people here saved a life) so too you out there that are just now realizing what has been going on. It does get better, but I think we really need to become friend’s to ourselves. Because these creatures of doom are everywhere.


Has anyone been following the Christie Brinkley divorce? Apparently, he’s been diagnosed as a narcissist (lthough that sounds like a generous assessment) and Christie said she “probably” wouldn’t have married him after she found out, a week before their wedding, that he was arrested years before at a gay truck stop.

Phone numbers on a bathroom wall, frequenting truck stops, or any other similar activity is all on them, Henry….not on you. And if it can happen to Christie and she can handle all the publicity about it, you or anyone else here have nothing of which to be ashamed.


Henry…putting his cell phone in the microwave? I would have been worried that it would hurt my microwave…you know, the metal problem. Is yours still working?

I’m not tempted at all to exact revenge, but if I was, I think I might have put the cell phone underwater just so I wouldn’t have to replace any appliances 🙂


eyesopened Hey!!! How are ya doing? Thanks so much for your input. I have been carrying this (shame) of taking him back after the fact. But I am better now, thanks eyes, your a sweetheart————-


didnt hurt the microwave, just 8 seconds and it was done!!!!!!!


Hi Henry

Well, you can just “nuke” that shame, too!



hmmm…good to know!

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