By | July 26, 2009 104 Comments

Dr. Donald G. Dutton explains that personality disorder is the cause of domestic violence

For the past several years Donna and I have attended the Battered Mothers Custody Conference and so we have been able to interact with domestic violence experts. Both of us were surprised to discover that although most of the worst spousal assault perpetrators have personality profiles indicative of sociopathy/psychopathy this fact is not recognized by many experts.

I have worked to become well acquainted with the scientific literature regarding intimate partner violence because I teach psychology of gender and because I very much want to understand why people who should know better often fail to diagnose sociopathy in perpetrators. This failure to diagnose has lead to intimate partner violence being erroneously interpreted as a gender issue related to male domination of females. This flies in the face of the real statistics which show that there are equal numbers of female perpetrators. The failure to recognize personality disturbance in female perpetrators has lead to male victims being further traumatized.

I am happy to report that the leading expert on intimate partner violence, Professor Donald Dutton of the University of British Columbia is fighting to correct the above misconceptions and to help people understand that domestic violence is perpetrated by disordered men and women.

In 1979, he cofounded the Assaultive Husbands Project, a court-mandated treatment program for men convicted of spousal assault. He has frequently served as an expert witness in civil trials involving intimate abuse and in criminal trials involving family violence. Dr. Dutton has published over 100 papers and four books, including Domestic Assault of Women, The Batterer: A Psychological Profile, Rethinking Domestic Violence and The Abusive Personality Violence and Control in Intimate Relationships.

I just finished reading The Abusive Personality and recommend it highly. In this book Dr. Dutton details the profile and personality structure of both male and female batterers. He makes a compelling case for his contention that personality disturbance is behind domestic violence in Western society. Next week I will summarize the personality profile of “Abusers” and explain how abuse relates to sociopathy/psychopathy.

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Ox Drover

Thanks for this information, Liane. I have thought “all along” that domestic battery, as well as sexual predators are mostly if not ALL HIGH IN psychopathic traits, if not full blown psychopaths. I will be interested in getting these books and reading them.

I am very glad that another “expert” seems to actually have “gotten it,” and better yet, is spreading teh word via his books and public speaking.

TOWANDO for this guy, as Jim in Indiania would say!!!


When I was in my 30s and I had two little children under five I joined a theatrical feminist group that put on plays in the city.
I had been brutally beaten for ten years by my then psychopath husband.
He was in this industry too, so he attended the play at the theater on opening night and applauded it with accolades.
He invited everyone and their families and the press to a bbq at our place the following day.On that day he wore the T shirt that we had to promote the play.
I wish I could tell you the wording on the t shirt as it was brilliant, but it migh identify me.
Anyway, he wore that Tshirt regularly when we went out, easily and effortlessly.
He believed his own denial. He used to say to me that his brutal bashings, (where I ended up in hopsital with broken bones), were nothing. And all he had done was “push me”.
Sometimes, looking at him through a broken nose and two black eyes,I believed him. I believed that yes, really he only pushed me. Such is the scenario of domestic violence.


I totally identify and understand women who go back to the psychopath. I did until I was 53.


I was with my primary partner (husband) for approx 12/14 years. The I had a lot of long bereaks (YEARS) in between each partner after that. I was forever trying to find the “OPPOSITE” to the “last one”. Every time I was on my own (with three kids), I got stronger. Then bang, I would always end up with a narc or a P who would destroy me.
Now I am pretty sure i won’t be with anyone anymore. I am too damaged. And thats fine with me. But I would like to win the lottery!

Ox Drover

DEar Tilly,

Funny (odd) that, my egg donor used to say my P sperm donor would “lie until he believed them himself” so what you said about your X “pushing” you sounds like that. Wearing the shirt, for him, must have been a real “joke.” Not a funny one, but a real joke!

Sweet Tilly, we are all damaged to one extent or another, physically and/or emotionally and/or financially…they take and take. and take. I am so sorry you endured so much for so long, but I am also so glad that you are out of that now, and on the road to healing.

Yea, I want to win the lotto too! We just got a new one here in my state, never had one before but all the states around have them sio our state is trying to keep our folks from going out of state to buy tickets, and keep the money at home. I believe the odds are 13 million to one–about the same as a P keeping their word, so I’m “just sure” I might win! ha ha NOT!

I’m shortly off to town for the day, or as my son says going to OZ. Have a good day Tilly (((Hugs)))


I REALLY hope you win the lotto TillY!:)xx

‘This failure to diagnose has lead to intimate partner violence being erroneously interpreted as a gender issue related to male domination of females.’

In my on-line tootling I have come across and read some sites and blogs that are set up for women suffering from domestic abuse.(The S/P I knew was not physically violent but I have been in a physically violent relationship and my mother and sister were extremely violent on a daily basis) and I was shocked to see how many female victims of violence in their home or communities find it difficult to get heard or are shunned when they speak out about abuse and male victims are extremely reluctant to come forward AT ALL (because this is something that ONLY happens to women?). I at one point put something on my face book page about an anti violence against women group and the reaction I got was, ‘friends of mine ‘backing off’ both male and female… there is this stigma attached to women speaking out against it why? Becuase they are seen as millitant feminists or ‘hysterical’ women …? Does this attitude towards women have a bearing on how seriously domestic violence is taken across the board? If so then we as a society are not as developed as we would like to think and that is a separate(and BIG) issue … but I would welcome any move to shift the view of domestic violence as a gender issue to a ‘personality disorder’ issue male/female/child.


It just occurred to me I never buy a ticket (I don’t like the odds either!) so I probably wont win lotto!

Ox Drover

Dear blueskies,

I agree with you, violence is not an an age, gender or racial issue, but a HUMAN ISSUE. some societies tolerate or even encourage violence against women more than others, but unfortunately, our society VERBALLY dis’es it, but in fact does LITTLE ABOUT IT realistically. It is still for the most part a HIDDEN epidemic. My son C’s X-wife tried her best to be violent with him, and apparently to “provoke” him to be violent back. It didn’t work with him because he would just up and leave the hosue until she calmed down and quit it. (until the next time). She claimed that all her previous husbands and live-ins were violent toward her, and I don’t doubt that some were, but at the same time, I think that she was in “gasoline and fire” (dual disordered people) relationships.

The “gasoline and fire” relationships where BOTH parties are disordered and each “gives as good as s/he gets” gives TRUE victims a bad name as “asking for it.”

When my X-DIL-P got out of jail in our rural area there was no place for a woman, alone, penniless, no friends to even pick her up, in the clothes she was arrested in, to go to, so the sheriff’s office sent her to a DV shelter where she was “taught” that SHE was “abused” because my son kept guns in the house (like 99.9% of every male in this county) of course she soaked this up like a sponge, blaming it all (her affair and her and her BF’s purchase of guns and an attempt to kill her husband) as resulting from her “abuse.” some how that didn’t fly with the cops or with us, or anyone else who knew her, but it apparently did with the DV shelter folks. The worker who accompanied her to the divorce hearing was staring daggers at me and my son. LOL

Tilly, I’m sorry you have to take TWO class with this witch, I wish I could say it will be “easy”—I do know you CAN do it though, but at what “price”? (((hugs)))))


my s/p dad, who used to smack us all around — my mom, brother and me — used to say, ”it couldn’t have been that bad. i never put any of you in the hospital!”
he was serious.


Lostingrief, I feel sick when I hear that parents like yours smacked you around. How brave anc courageous you must be to have survived that and are still alive and hearling.

There are so many here who were abused as children. I feel like I’m feeling “surivor’s guilt.”

Sometimes I feel like maybe I don’t even belong here because I never had that experience. Also, I have only known one narcissisiopath — my Ex. I want to comfort others from my limited experience.

BTW, no one needs to answer that. Realistically I know I belong here if only for my own continued healing, actually.

Your dad’s comment is probably what my Ex thought but didn’t express. I never had to go to the hospital — but should have the last time. I just packed my suitcase and left!

He also never hit or bruised my face or any part of my body that couldn’t be covered up with clothing. I say he must have KNOWN what he was doing to be so selective!


Oxy, it blows my mind how some cultures condone physical and emotional abuse.

I recently heard that a 9 year old girl was gang raped — by her young cousins and neighbos. The girl’s father wasn’t upset at all — just at the police who picked up the boys and charged them!! He said, in his country, Liberia, this was an accepted practice!!!!!!!! Excused the boys because they were only doing what was common in their society!!!!!!

Yuck. Yuck Yuck. I think I’m learning more than I want to know!


OMG…….this article is what I have been saying…’s my ‘platform’ for applying for my states Counsil against Domestic Violence committee with the Attorney generals office here!…..I so believe this.
This information is what saved MY Life!!!! It gave me answers to the ‘why’s’ that I was looking for……
‘NORMAL” people do not ‘hurt’ others…..hit, punch, kill, mame, lash out……etc….There has to be a ‘why’ and I belive everthing this good DR. has written!
The WHY is because THEY are disordered. AND not in the sense the public thinks……..
If you poll your friends about what their interpretation is of Domestic Violence….it’s a man hitting a woman.
It goes both ways, for one……
Excuses are made for ‘him’, the victim is blamed, persecuted, rung out……and the perp walks away and soon enough everyone forgets………EXCEPT THE VICTIMS!!!!!!!
I hope I am granted this ‘position’ so I can do what I can to promote this information to the State. Law enforcement, therapists, judges, DA’s, Dom V advocates and survivors sit on this commitee…….I WANT TO BE THERE…….I want to make a difference, and take what I have learned and refer and educate and point these people that ‘make’ these decisions in our lives in this direction of education!!!!! It needs to be looked at in this light!
WAY TO GO DR. Dutton!!
WAY TO GO Dr. Leedom for posting this on LF, your quite an asset to our avenue of information!!!!!!


The p art teacher has started her attack already…you are right, the price is my soul. She gave me High distinction last semester. But its time to devalue and discard me. She has already smeared me to my favourite teacher.
Yeah, the cost is my soul, my art and my creativity.


WE give our souls voluntarily…….
You will have to find a way to keep your creativity and blossom from this…..
Remember, what may appear to be a ‘bad’ situation, we can turn into a good one.
I truely believe everything happens for a reason…’s steering us somewhere…..we need to be astute to figure this out…..but don’t fight it, don’t give in, don’t give up.
See where it’s steering you towards…..
Don’t sweat the ‘small stuff’.
Gain self esteem and self preservation and plow forward… already know you can overcome her… did last semester……duplicate those actions… may need to ‘knotch it up’ this semester to gain her ‘trust’…..but you can do it…..
Stay positive, keep your strength!!!!


I guess what it boils down to is….if we believe the statement that 1 in 4 people exhibit these traits….then it’s US that are going to have to learn how to ‘deal’ with them to be successful in our individual ventures.
unfortunately, as we have found out, the devastating way…..not all people think and act as we do…..
We must remain in control of our dreams!


To all who have suffered at the hands of violent parents, silblings partners:-

After my alcoholic S father broke mine and my sisters noses and punched the crap out of me generally when I was 14, my mother left for three weeks with me and my younger brother. Eventually, my mother spoke to him on the phone and she said he’d apologised: WELL NOT TO ME, HE HADN’T. We went back. He never laid another finger on me but boy did he up the ante on my mum. She wasted another 11 years of her life on him before she finally got out with my brother (I went at 21). He always behaved the next day as if nothing had happened. When my S ex partners broke my wrist, his immediate reaction was “Now look what you’ve made me do! I’ve never laid a hand on a woman in my life before”. Yeh, I’ll bet – just that no one had “told” yet, given the trouble he went to to compartmentalise his life so none of his ex women’s paths ever crossed – or so he thinks………… Me thinks he protesteth too loudly (LOL). He also had a big thing after an argument (once I started to stand up for myself) that I had to recognise my part in it. Well, I never ever started one – he was always the one who was ill tempered, antagonistic and provocative – no wonder I kept trying to walk away – shame I kept going back (idiot).

The whole ‘playing down’ thing allows it to continue. My mother would ‘play it down’ “to keep the peace”, we kids played it down through ‘shame’. The shame stays with you a long time and, unfortunately, I think the shame shapes us in adolensence and all the untangling has to be done later on – for some it never happens and maybe that’s why they/we continue to get targetted or are attracted into other abusive situations – just a thought.

Anyone else come across this INSTANT DEFENCE in their denial of their actions?


This is what I am referring to when I say, life has a way of teaching us these lessons….if we don’t ‘get them’ the first time, life will keep trying until we do finally get it! We do tend to run from pain, deny it…’s too big to handle, it’s really NOT happening…..we have to for our own temporary sanity….
So ……yes….instant defense…..oh yeah……
Also…..MY MOTHER is famouse for this…..I call her the denial queen! Still not sure she ‘get’s’ what my ex S did to me and my kids! It’s overwhelming to grasp……



Sounds like your mum has many unresolved issues. My dear mum spent the final years of her shortened life ‘untangling’ herself, trying to mend the damage to her relationship with my sister (who is much less forgiving than me and, to this day even though both our parents are dead, feels more resentment to my mother than she does my alcoholic S father). S/N/Ps cause, sometimes, lifelong havoc and yes, it is overwhelming to grasp. I think some people use the denial because the consequences of facing up to what they have ‘allowed’ to happen to them/their children/loved ones, is too painful to face. Maybe the people on this site are the brave ones afterall! I freely admit that, at times, it might have been easier to bury my head than deal with the reality of what I allowed – fortunately with my ex-S, it was mainly myself that I allowed to get so hurt, battered and emotionally ‘mashed’.

We mustn’t let ourselves get overwhelmed! Mostly, I aim for underwhelm these days – can get a bit dull, on the surface but ahhhh! the peace!

All love.

Ox Drover

Dear Escapee,

UNDERWHELM!!! RIGHT ON! I think that after we have lived in chaos we tend, I know I sure do, to find peace a bit “boring.” But I am working on enjoying that peace.

Yesterday, I stood tall and told theTRUTH, it was painful to do it (especially in the middle of a store to a half believing audience of a couple of my mother’s friends, a minister and his wife) It was stressful to do so. I got home and felt really strong and glad I did it, but couldn’t shut my mind off last night and was 3:00 O’clock before I got to sleep. I essentially broke NC (at least emotionally)

I;m not devestated today, but am tired and a bit of dreading to do this—which is hoping that by giving documentary proof to this man who is a minister that my egg donor wants to “admire” her, he has said he will talk to her about the folly and the wrongness of sending money to the P-son. I know I can NEVER trust her–you can NEVER TRUST A LIAR—that tiger does not ever change their stripes, but if there is ANYTHING to keep her from sending him money or willing him thousands of dollars it is sxomething I NEED TO DO FOR MY OWN AND MY OTHER SONS’ SAFETY.

THIS IS A TEST—-I need to handle it well, externally AND internally. Life is overcoming challenges and this is an opportunity, I think…so think I need to take the opportunity I was given by “accidently” running in to this man. He asked me when I told him the story, “Why didn’t you call me?” I just DID NOT THINK ABOUT IT.



Good luck in your mission. Hope you get a better night’s sleep tonight.


Dear Oxy,

I read as often as I can but comment little. Often someone says what I am thinking anyway, being in the same “boat” as we are in many ways.

I just had to let you know, you make me laugh again with your comment about the lottery sized chances of a P keeping their word…and might I add “of telling the truth.”

Regarding your accidental meeting at the store…I don’t know if the same thing occured that happens for me, but it seems like even when I don’t mean to or think I want to I end up talking about my ex and experiences. It’s like its always just below the surface waiting to burst out. Then I’m left wondering what kind of backlash it may cause. Maybe it’s because the N/S ex and I have children together and he and his new victim/wife live only 1/2 mile from me so there is always new info from my kids/in my face to feed the fire. But honestly, I don’t know if that’s the cause or if it would be this way anyway.

Do you think survivors of trauma, like natural disasters, for example, experience the same thing? Does it fade with time? Is it a normal part of PTSD? He’s been out of the house for over 5 years and it’s been 2 years since the divorce but, like I said, he’s still right there in our comunity.

Ox Drover

Dear Escaped,

My egg donor lives on the SAME FARM I do, but her house is out of sight of mine unless I go out on the hill in the pasture (a half mile away) I seldom see anyone who knows her and/or the story, or that I WOULD tell the “while truth” to, but it just so happened I ran into this couple and I decided on the spot to just be truthful rather than a “social” response of “Fine, I’m sure.”

I’m not sure that it will turn out any good thing, but it MIGHT but if not I will not be too disappointed. I just try to use every opportunity for my safety that presents itself. I was, I think, more “disturbed” by this than I felt after a couple of hours of thinking about it, (thus the not being able to turn my head off thinking about it and to go to sleep) However after talking about this with my sons and with a friend who “gets it” I am going to go ahead and persue it, but not have any expectations that it will “work.”

I’m sure glad I idon’t have kids with one, you might try logging on to Dr. Leedom’s blog about “raising the at risk child” and might get some good imput from there since there are others like yourself dealing with these co-parents (LOL) I can’t even imagine having to have your children associate with that creep. (((hugs))))


Oh, Oxy, I didn’t realize you were on the same farm! I have kind of the same situation here. The ex is 1/2 mile away in separate neighborhood but his mother is next door to me. They are the proverbial tree and nut that didn’t fall far from it, even though he is adopted. We are on one acre lots, but still…it’s too close. Her bedroom window blinds are always up just a couple of inches so she can spy. I think it’s funny because there is never anything to see but then, untrustworthy people always seem to be the most distrustful and pessimistic. Perhaps that should be one of the “red flags” to pay attention to. But then, maybe not because victims end up distrustful as well.

Thanks for the suggestion about Dr. Leedom’s blog, I’ll check that out. And, thanks for responding back. I always appreciate reading your wisdom. You have been through so much and yet focus so much on helping everyone else here and being there for all. You are a strong woman and a true, caring person.

Put your communication with the minister in God’s hands and get some sleep!

(((hugs back!)))

Ox Drover

Dear Escaped,
QUOTE: “Put your communication with the minister in God’s hands and get some sleep! ”

That’s what I intend to do–would love to take a nap this afternoon but if I do, won’t sleep tonight, so will tough it out til then.

Living next door to your X-MIL must be fun! NOT!!! LOL

I’m glad you appreicate my rambling (and rants! LOL) I hope that even if I don’t always PRACTICE what I “preach,” that people will do as I SAY, not necessarily as I DO! LOL

Learning what I “ought” to do or “should” do is a long process when I have thought “x” all my life and realize NOW THAT X IS WRONG!!! so I iam having to take it one day at a time, one “should” being reexamined at a time. Learning new ways of coping, learning better ways to act and react. Isn’t always easy, and really there is NOT an “end” to learning (I hope) in sight because I always quit before I got to the “good part” which I am feeling that I am approaching now, as I “weed” my garden of the thorns and prickly pear cactus. sometimes it even hurts to grasp them and pull them out of the “garden” but once they are out, they don’t multiply, so just gritting your teeth and hanging on as you pull them out (hopefully once and for all) will make it easier to weed in the future.

Hope Dr. Leedom’s site is helpful to you. (((hugs)))


That was one of my Dad’s “Dadisms” as I like to call them. “Do as I say, not as I do.” He has a million of them and always laughs when I call them “Dadisms” now. 🙂

On the other note, what we should do…
Thanks to this site and much ongoing education, learning boundries and new coping and protective styles, I’ve learned lots of new “shoulds.” I have, however noted that sometimes what we know intellectually and how we feel emotions and react to them don’t always connect. That is the ongoing assignment for me, remembering what I’ve learned and utilizing it when I need it. I suspect, that is going to be a lifelong assignment. I mean really…have you ever weeded anything that stayed weeded? LOL I wonder if they sell mulch to put on our thought and behavior patterns to keep the weeds from growing back?


I am using these techniques for the p art teacher. I WILL SEE IF THEY WORK:
They are an abbreviation of what KATHY TAUGHT ME:

1. Involve yourself to a minimum and keep your thoughts to yourself.
2.Turn off the availability of information from ME, except to attend to the BUSINESS of the art class.
3. NO information whatsoever about my FEELINGS.
4:NO opinions that could give her INFO of what is in MY mind.
5. “Please The Idiot ” strategy (i.e. mirroring and reflecting her and affirming her).
6:Talk about neutral things SHE LIKES TO TALK ABOUT: e.g. shopping, how great her shopping looks on her, how broke she is, how her car doesn’t go, how she should have a new one, how brave she is for driving her car,traffic, how amazing she is etc.
7:When she ask personal questions: DEFLECT!!
8:My “emergency out”= laugh whilst saying “why do you want to know”.
9:Smile at her “nicely” a lot.
11.Predict and EXPECT her continual EFFORTS to get an EMOTIONAL CONTROL/HOLD over you.
12: If all else fails do NOT HESITATE, to drop the course.


Now I get it…I am not AT UNI to get my degree in Art at all. I am in uni to get my PHD in dealing with psychopaths. Well, I wish God had told me that about two years ago! I like the title of that marie Jo’s book…”getting it thru my thick skull”…sometimes quickly sometimes slowly.xo

Ox Drover


That is a great list of 12 “steps”—-I think you can do it!!! Her ein the US one of the cell phone companies has an ad with this huge group of “support” people called “the network” standing behind each user—so think of us as your NETWORK there in the class with you and if you have a problem visualize me BOINKING her on the head with my cyber skillet, or visualize her NEEKID and standing there like the emperor and just tell her how BEAUTIFUL HER NEW OUTFIT IS!!!!

Turn it back on her, like you said, like a mirror that reflects her OWN OPINION OF HERSELF!!!



The article does have some really great research and analysis which Dr. Donald Dutton has published. He is one of several psychologists I trust in regards to DV research, analysis and info. However, the author still misses some points and thus ends up with some DV/mental illness contradictions.

This and many articles by others could be better if those inconsistencies were corrected, and additional complementary and critically related facts were included, linking mental illness with DV (domestic violence). It’s too bad that so many top fathers’ and men’s advocates likewise often miss the mark on this too. That is a bit like radical, one-sided, abusive DV feminists often do, but not nearly as bad, nor for the same fraudulent and abusive intent and parasitic reasons. Hmmm, sociopathology, narcissism or maybe axis I mental illness there too?

OK, here is what this article and too many fathers’ and men’s advocates miss, and choke on:

First, women do not in fact commit nearly equal or equal amounts of DV as men do. Women rule, they commit and initiate more. Yes, more.,0,5844465.story

True equality-based studies repeatedly and predominantly show that women commit more dating and domestic violence than men do. Only a smaller number of unequal, bogus, limited, manipulated or cherry-picked studies do not show a semblance of this very well documented real life phenomenon.

Also, please do note that DV conviction stats show the opposite of reality as well, that mostly men and fathers are convicted of DV crimes. Since this directly and strongly contradicts all those studies, prosecution stats only and solely reflect a deep and abusive bias, negative and abusive profiling and hatred of men, fathers and families by said “justice” system and associated DV Industry. Period.

Who notices that this also really hurts women and especially children too when you look at the full picture. You can’t lie about, crush and abuse dad without exploiting, crushing and abusing the whole family, especially the kids.

Why are fathers’ and men’s advocates avoiding or missing some of these critical truths and facts? The most solid stats and studies show that mothers commit far more child abuse and murder their own children considerably more than fathers do. This is even confirmed by HHS stats, a govt agency which is ironically anti-male, anti-father, spoken from their own mouths. They do infact admit those condemning facts of abuse and murders by mothers. But, when addressed on these stats which they collect, they admit it, but turn it right around by blaming fathers for the fact that we have so many abusive and murderous moms. Yes, they say these abusive mothers are the fault of fathers. Of course their first preference is to simply avoid discussion of this fact which they try to hide anyway. It shoots down their agenda.

So, they mean that women aren’t responsible for their own actions? How convenient, for HHS, associated feminists and their many anti-family associates too. Why do so many men’s and fathers’ advocates join them by failing to point all of this out? Another free pass given to violent women by feminists, attorneys and by men’s and fathers’ advocates?

Good psychologists who closely study and follow DV and mental illness patterns also know very well that women suffer more mental illness than men do. This of course perfectly matches the fact that mental illness ussually coincides with DV, and all those stats and studies showing who commits and initiates most of it.

How do so many miss these glaring interlocking facts? I’m sure Dr. Donald Dutton hasn’t missed these facts. Even the supremacist anti-male variety of DV feminists know and use this latter fact (women suffer more mental illness) for leverage against men, by using lies to compliment it of course. These feminists and their abusive male cohorts contend that women have more mental illness than men due to “oppression and abuse of women by men.”

Oh, what a big surprise again? Women and mothers aren’t accountable for any of their own actions, no matter who does what? That’s a huge insult to women and mothers, accusing them of “being so incompetent that they can’t be held accountable for anything they do wrong.” Real women are very offended by that offensive assumption against women’s competance in general.

Ironically and likewise related to this is the fact that these certain feminists and their attorney pals of the DV/Divorce Industry constantly hammer the point out that a parent who abuses their kids is more likely to abuse their spouse, and vice versa, as they naturally assume men are the cause and root of all ills anyway…

When we put all the facts together, we should fully agree with that point, that those who abuse spouse are more likely to abuse child, because of what most solid data shows on this: Most real stats and studies point at women having more mental illness and also abusing their children most and also abusing their spouses most. How can we help anyone whom WE are denial about and hide the facts about???

It all fits very nicely, unless we aren’t aware, or simply ban some of the critical facts with mental illness and DV. Changing or softening these facts does a serious disservice to men, women, children and every last member of society.

Remember, all the abusive men and women combined still don’t add up to the total abuse of men, women, children and everyone by the very abusive and parasitic DV/Divorce Industry.

The worst abusers and predators have always historically hunted in packs.


Tom Miller
Advocate for victims of mental illness, and their families. Advocate for victims of abuse (men, women and children), especially the most plentiful victims of all, victims of the DV/Divorce Industry.


Tom Miller- I have looked at the mssg you posted- I am more than alittle disturbed about the comments made here.

I am NOT a “supremist anti male variety of DV feminist” as you mentioned, BUT IF ‘violent women are given a free pass by feminists, attys and mens advocate groups as you posted- SURELY you must admit that violent men certainly are given FREE PASSES by court sytems by the pathetically poor protection and lack of help for many women/children , as well. Especially when REAL EVIDENCE is there to prove ONE SIDED domestic violence.

I know of the lack of protection, laxodasical attitudes of the judges/officials who cry about overloaded case loads, and the yawns from “hearing it all day long…” Seems like a lot of perps are “given a free pass”- many to someone elses demise or detriment.
I have lived this scenerio as many of us here have! A “slap on the wrist” of repeat violent perps is my experience and of MANY others – Have you read this site?? The vast majority of victims are women and children. I quite frankly dont need twisted statistics to prove this, but I will state a few.
Not to say women dont commit these crimes- Absolutely they do.
I realize your topic here, but am offended that you as an “advocate” for “victims of abuse: men, women, AND children, say that “women and mothers (due to the mental illness comments you mentioned afore) ARE NOT accountable for any of their actions, no matter what? -WHERE DO YOU GET THAT? Have you checked populations of womens prisons?

Your other comment- “real women are very offended by the offensive assumption against womens compentance.” You being male- is this merely your opinion?
I am a real woman- NO convictions of any kind, no mental illness, business owner, mother of 2, AND I SAY- REAL WOMEN WANT REAL JUSTICE- whether it be from DV of female OR male perpetrators. Your comment “of Good psychologists who closely study and follow DV mental illness know very well women suffer more mental illness….. all those stats and studies showing who commits most of it.

Also your comment speaking of those who …naturally assume men are the cause and root of all ills any way…
Are you sure Tom Miller that you do not feel women are the root and cause of all evil? Your biased post impliments this in so many sentences, I cant even re state them all.

Here are some statistics I would like noted, as there are so many others out there I cant begin to list them all. I encourage others here to research on their own as well.

From Scottish Crime Survey- Men less likely to have been repeat victims of DV, less likely to be injured… Over 2 women per week are killed by current partners or x partners (this probally includes male and female violent partners) 40% of female homocide is from violent partner abuse.
Women and Children are the MAJORITY victims of DV over men. Walby and ALLen study “the context of fear is an important element in the understanding of d.v as a pattern of coercive control.”
Scottish CRIME study- Men are less likely to have been repeat victims of DV, and less likely to be injured.
Executive Central Research Unit-
1 in 4 women experience in life some form of abuse-sexual, domestic. Less than half is reported.

Also at the top of this thread it mentions dv not gender specific- Crime statistics show DV IS gender specific- men as perpetrators.

Tom, the site you referred to on your post states to the effect (will not go back and quote verbatum tonite as it is very late) that …when safe to do so both male and female in domestic abuse cases should be looked as a equal perps. WHO decides what is safe and when is it safe to assume both parties are guilty ??? GOOD GOD, dont leave that up to untrained officers/court officials to make that deadly call- esp when one party is stating abuse, and the other isnt – I am so sure if you ask a P if he has been abused- he/she will absolutely say he has!
Oh wait- MY x n/p abuser did that- AFTER my claim of DV. With ZERO evidence, no weapons at scene of crime other than HIS hand prints on my neck and the broken doors to further prove my “lack of participation” in this , His futile claim was immediately discounted. Its a scary thought if the general position of an officer or anyone associated with protecting victims must take the position that Both parties are probally guilty. Hows that for rights? Come on, that attitude is going backwards in accomplishing ANYTHING but bad decisions from those perpetually untrained and unqualified to make them. I think it would be a popular opinion to state that most law officials know very little about P’s and DV combined. THEY ( majority being men abusers) FIGHT TO WIN. Period. I know there are couples who both participate in DV- I dont argue that, but disagree that it is the NORM as the site you mentioned implies (“statistically”).

That said, If EVIDENCE of abuse from both parties exists, both should be charged- More importantly children should be protected #1.
Tom, I am disappointed in your lack of neutral and balanced observation of DV. I am sorry to say that I would be very nervous if you were representing me, as a female in any DV case.
Your statement toward the end of your post “women… also abusing their spouses the most” has no real revelance or credability that I have seen, but quite the contrary on EVERY statistic I’ve seen or heard or experienced in the REAL world.

I am sure you think these all came from “anti male varieties” with a “hatred of men” – YOUR DESCRIPTION.

Tonight, I just got out yet another DV court case with my X p
perpetrator, who has received little more than ‘a slap on the wrist” for multiple convictions of violent crimes against me. Should I, in keeping with YOUR assumptions assume the opposite- that “one sided women haters, with deep bias caused this lack of justice? Maybe I’d just be one of those “mental illness” cases , huh?
Your comment- “true equality based studies show that women commit more dating and DV than men do.——

Once again, I dont find it creditable or even smart to give women a “false sense of security” that we are LESS likely to be victims of abuse. Abuse, Tom comes not only in the form of physical, but sexual as well- equally as damaging. Even on that count alone- the male statistic is far below that of a womans.

LF Victims- I am emotionally tied to this subject and have JUST as much concern for male victims and justice therein. However the blatant statements by Tom are not accurate and must be cited as such.


‘the domestic violence system needs to treat violent couples as violent couples, instead of shoe-horning them into the “man as perp/woman as victim” model. Counseling services for violent couples are rare. ‘

I read the article in the link and I agree with the above statement. Although I thought most of it was bogus small minded journalism.

I also agree with the following.

I know there are couples who both participate in DV- I dont argue that, but disagree that it is the NORM as the site you mentioned implies (”statistically”).

I also agree that Domestic Violence would be taken more seriously if treated as a personality disorder rather than a gender issue and IT NEEDS TO BE SEEN AS SUCH.

I think this because we live in a world that is not gender equal. Sorry but it’s not and that can be used to discredit and discount abuse from either gender.

I think your stance on this Tom is exactly the same as the ‘supremacist anti-male variety of DV feminists’ but from the other side of the fence ( what is that called?) and both sides muddy the waters with their own agenders.

In my life experience the violent abusers were both men and women, the sexual abusers were both men and women.

GLOBALLY, the majority of violent and sexual abusers ARE men and outside of europe and the states especially societies are set up to protect them, and NOT women, this is a fact.If you want to talk statistics, have a shufty at cultural norms in sub saharan africa, get the bigger picture.

I support both male and female, adult, child victims of abuse and condemn the abusers male/female/adult /child.


National Coalition against DV- states a MYTH that the problem with DV is couples assaulting each other.
also states, In ALL cultures Batterers are commonly male
US Dept of Justice- Every 15 min. in U.S. a Woman is beaten
Women who leave their abuser 75% greater risk of being killed.
40-60% men who abuse women, abuse children- American psychl Association

Elizabeth Conley


“the domestic violence system needs to treat violent couples as violent couples, instead of shoe-horning them into the “man as perp/woman as victim” model. Counseling services for violent couples are rare. ”

I can easily see where this impression comes from. In the cases of contention between spouses I’ve seen, both of them acted crazy. It was tempting to believe they were both vicious, irrational fiends. (For many years I believed this to be the case.) It was only after observing what happened to the two people 5 years after the breakup that a new impression emerged. About 5 years later, one of the them would have pulled themselves together and moved on to a healthy way of life, the other would still be living an abusive or exploitive lifestyle.

I don’t think people who make observations about domestic abuse have the patience to follow the couples for 5+ years. Nonetheless, fate has given me this unique window on the dynamics of domestic abuse, and it has radically altered my point of view.

I think we’ve all found that being abused makes us feel hostile, cornered, and less dignified than we would otherwise be. How we behave under those circumstances can give observers the impression that we’re as bad or worse as our abusers. Add a couple of well spun lies from an N/P/S, and our reputations are shot. This is how victims are alienated from people who would otherwise be supportive. The outside observer cannot discern that either “participant” in the dispute is anything but totally nuts.

I truly believe that the only defense against this false impression is for the victim to separate from the abuser as early and completely as possible. S/he should go NC to the greatest extent possible, and refuse to talk to anyone about his/her ordeal except his/her lawyer and one or two very reliable confidants.

It’s the only way we can possibly hope to retain any public respect whatsoever.


actually Tom, I hope you dont mind me saying(we are all here agreeing to disagree when we want to) having re read your post, there is not one part of it that I dont find disturbing and also I think, offensive, not just as a woman but as a human being.

I can see your statistics are wrong even from a short amount of digging around, and your anti woman stance is scary ( I would think the same of a woman coming on here and taking this tack against men… not sure why anyone WOULD or how helpful it is).

It is just plain ridiculous to state ‘The most solid stats and studies show that mothers commit far more child abuse and murder their own children considerably more than fathers do.’ with all due respect- what planet are you living on?

I think if you actually work as an advocate for victims of violence(which you seem to be implying) you may well be doing more damage than good.

Sorry – have to say it how i feel it from now on…:)


Elizabeth, I think you are absolutely right.

I think on another thread(maybe escapee) someone said something about a marked difference between the ‘crazy’ victim and the ‘crazy’ s/p (not those exact words) is that the victims try to learn and heal and grow past their unhealthy behaviour and the abusers(or S/Ps) just continue with it.


I was agreeing that counselling for violent couples is rare, but that it certainly wasnt the norm statistically.:)

Elizabeth Conley


No matter how much time passes, there are still a few N/S/Ps who I will not risk associating with because nothing good comes of it.

One of the worst things about an encounter is that my visceral reaction to them is an overwhelming urge to kick their arses up between their ears. This is similar to the urge to stomp a cockroach, and this instinct is probably impossible to entirely overcome.

I don’t stomp cockroaches, I gently scoop ’em up and throw them outside. Still, they’ve got to go. Roomies we’re not!

When your skin crawls, it’s hard to completely conceal the distaste. Prolonged exposure isn’t going to result in a desirable outcome.


:)x I gotcha. “BOINK”.


Blueskies says “I think your your anti women stance is scary”
and that she is offended not only as a woman but as a human being. AMEN!
From my lengthy above post in the wee hours of the night last night (as you can see, I felt it NECESSARY to state my distaste of this persons comments before others could be triggered- hopefully as much as I from this baloney)
BSkies- Are the the only ones so far that see this for what it is???? I’ve never read ANYTHING so blatantly antagonistic from ANY POSTER HERE?!!!!! (I never say the previous posts from that Pianoman you guys had episodes with- is this him????


sorry- speaking about TOM MILLERS POST


Correction- hopefully NOT as much as I was last nite (about others being triggered!!!


Sabrina YOU ARE NOT the only one!:)xxxxxx Look at what elizabeth said to me:) Shoo the cockroach out! Yes? dont waste time trying to crush it:) LOTS of


I hope others WILL Not BELIEVE for one instant the rubbish the so called “advocate” Tom Miller stated as fact last night. There is evidence to refute the entirety of his post, and is ,as I stated before “dangerous” for females to BELIEVE for a minute that they are “SAFER” than men in the statistic of dating and Domestic violence!!!!! They is so much EVIDENCE proving otherwise it is UNBELIEVABLE.
LF guys- sorry I cant let it go this morning with this post, I planned to log on here last nite to add my experience of the DV court date with my X N/p last nite, but was so offended by the blogger TOM MILLERS garbage here, I didnt feel like I was in a safe zone to talk about personal DV.


Blueskies, Thanks for pointing that out. I just want ANY victimized soul here to know IN no UNCERTAIN terms, how BLATANTLY wrong he is!!!

Ox Drover

Dear Sabrina and everyone,

QUOTE: “I planned to log on here last nite to add my experience of the DV court date with my X N/p last nite, but was so offended by the blogger TOM MILLERS garbage here, I didnt feel like I was in a safe zone to talk about personal DV. ”

Before I went to bed last night I read “tom’s” post and I too felt it was “skewed statistics” and emotionally offensive.

Go over to ther right side of the posts and there is a RED LINK that says “report abusive comments”—now while this one may not “qualify” as “abusive” in terms of bad words or name calling of another poster, it was offensive to me FOR THIS SITE, as far as him posting this on any other place, that is his right—however, to come to a site like this and post it, to me is AGGRESSIVE and offensive.

I do not go to the socipaths support group and post my opinions of them there, to do so would be aggressive and offensive and poor taste if nothing else.

I have no way of knowing what his motives or any other reason for him coming here and posting this, but I believe it is just as OUT OF PLACE (whether right or wrong) as it would be for a fundamentalist Christian to go into a Catholic mass and stand up and scream “you are all going to hell” even if that was what the man believed.

The quote from Sabrina above demonstrates to me though, that when people who have such opinions come here and “post” it is as upsetting to regular posters here as it would be for some woman who had been persecuted for her religion to observe the man screaming at the mass “you are all going to hell.” However, there is NO way we can keep people who violently disagree with us, or who are taunting us, from posting. Donna’s article about IGNORE them, do not engage, and report the comments to her, I think is the best way to handle this, guys.

Sabrina I hope you WILL tel lyour stroy about the court, don’t let this guy keep you from sharing. We are interested whether he is or not, and this is OUR blog! (((hugs)))) and God bless.


Hey, everyone. Haven’t been here in a while, been traveling and having lots of out-of-town company. Have had some hard stuff to deal with in my personal life, including some very scary health stuff with a beloved sibling, but not of the SP variety. I don’t necessarily have anything pertinent to say about this particular topic, but I did just want to check in and let you sweet people know how I’m doing. I’m still not out of the paranoia stage, but I am starting, it seems, to let go of the shame, anger, and obsession (not completely, but getting there). I haven’t been able to warm up to any new friends for two years now and may not for quite some time, and I admit to being far more suspicious of behavior that might or might not be a red flag. But I think that for me, for now, that’s a safer place to be than the unconditionally trusting person I was.

Just wanted to thank you all for your support and insight and wisdom. I’ve read a stack of books, now, on cluster B behavior, and I honestly think that the best, most authentic info is on this site. Plus, it was such a huge relief to be able to come here and not only have people believe me (that is one of the most devastating aspects of the D&D, not even being believed and having everyone rally around the sociopath, perceiving them as the “winner.”), but also not treat me with impatience and be huffy about my not getting over it already.

I obviously missed a chit storm over the weekend; probably just as well. I remember when I first came here wondering why it was that more posers didn’t show up on this site to wreak havoc or at least try to. I think the cockroach analogy is a very good one. And not taking bait ourselves is important, I think. By continuing to support each other, I think we can stay strong and continue to do what I see as the most important work – letting people know about the prevalence of sociopathy and how sociopaths work, with their charm and glib lies. Ripping the masks off. And we can do that in generalized ways, I think, in this context.

You guys are so awesome. I feel so lucky to have a safe place to come when I’m feeling shaky or alone. Because as many friends as I still do have, no one who hasn’t been targeted understands. They just don’t.


Thank you Oxy. And I did report abuse from his inflamatory UNTRUE, FAKE statistic and mis information. I did find worlds of statistics from all sorts of sources valadating what “WE” already know to be true of male dominated DV. EVERY CRIME STATISTIC, AWARENESS GROUP, Domestic COALITION GRP. in any and all parts of the world sites domestic abuse predominately male. THats the FACTS, TOM deal with it!!!!!

Oxy, thanks for caring about my story. Unfortunately, I need to de compress from this a bit before I can talk about it, but I love the fact that the real guys/gals here really do care, and support IS here! Just gotta sweep the cockroaches out from time to time!!! Beyond that- I will leave it to the God Lord to deal with them and their evil doings!

Ox Drover

Dear Skippy,

Glad you popped in for a “cuppa coffee” and a visit! Hope your sibs health improves. We can “deal with” that sort of real life problem much more easily than with the TRUMPED UP PROBLEMS that th epsychopaths make that are totally unnecessary. At least if you get a flat tire, you know your CAR wasn’t “out to get you” LOL


Thank you, OxDrover. Yes, it’s true, the curve balls that life throws ARE easier to deal with than the ones that are trumped up, malicious, and targeted. Love the flat tire analogy 😀

And Sabrina, I very much appreciated all the information you posted to counter the disinformation.


Liane Leedom, I have a question on this thread when you stated there are “equal numbers of female perpetrators” when every statistic I have ever read is to the contrary. Can you explain this statement? If you read any of the stats I posted from several agencies- none of them suggest this at all.
I must admit, I am not finding this thread at all helpful or enlightening but confusing and some of the claims not backed up by any shown evidence by you. I feel that you are definately an advocate for prevention of DV and S awareness, I understand and agree with you that “so called experts” dont get the S traits and disordered individuals connection to abuse. Much more awareness needs to be made, but I feel the message you may be meaning to communicate is misleading as far as true , criminal statistics on male/female DV.

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