I write this column (using “he” throughout, for simplicity purposes) to suggest some useful ideas for vetting a prospective provider who does not come recommended through a reliable source (or through Donna Anderson’s growing new LoveFraud referral base).
How can you begin to assess a relatively unknown provider for his competence to address your experiences with a suspected sociopath specifically, exploiter in general, or otherwise personality-disturbed individual?
Let me start by suggesting that a provider who claims to be educated about sociopathy really isn’t if he lacks an equally fluent understanding of narcissistic and borderline personality disorder.
The reason I say this is that, under certain circumstances, all three disorders can look very much alike; but more importantly, if you are involved with someone who has any one of these disorders, you are at heightened risk of being personally violated and abused.
So, while they are distinct from each other (although common elements of narcissism and sociopathy remain intriguing), I’m suggesting that all three disorders greatly increase the probable, if not certain, occurrence of interpersonal violation.
In the course of this discussion, I’m going to assume that you may be involved with someone (or have been involved with someone) whom you suspect (or know) to be, for instance, sociopathic and/or abusive? Otherwise you wouldn’t be seeking assurances that a particular provider has knowledge and/or expertise of the disorder(s) in question.
I also make the assumption that LoveFraud members or visitors wanting to find a knowledgeable resource on sociopathy (who do not find assistance through Donna’s new referral resource) come with a nice advantage—by virtue of their involvement with LoveFraud, they are already extra knowledgeable on the subject. This equips them to be astute evaluators of a prospective resource.
So let’s get down to business.
You will need, no surprise, to ask questions; questions that can gauge the provider’s competency to appreciate the gravity of a situation in which a sociopathic (or some other exploitative dynamic) is, or has been, present.
And you will want good, expressive answers to your questions, not dismissive ones.
The first, vital task is to assess the provider’s receptivity to your interest in his clinical experience. This point needs emphasis: You are entitled to evaluate the provider’s clinical experience and expertise as it pertains to your circumstances.
I stress: You are completely, utterly entitled to assess the provider’s professional experience, skills, and interest on matters relevant to your personal circumstances and self-interest.
Remember, this is not about protecting the provider; it’s about protecting yourself.
As such, this speaks to a bigger issue: You are setting yourself up if you do not protect yourself, and so you protect yourself by owning your right to a completely respectful, receptive invitation to evaluate the provider’s scope of interest and competence with a given client population, or in a particular clinical area. Anything less than a genuine, undefensive invitation from the provider to proceed with your questions should immediately disqualify him from consideration.
So for instance, you might begin with something like, “You know, it’s very important to me, given my circumstances, to be working with someone I can feel confident has a really good knowledge of _________. Would you mind if I asked you several questions along those lines, for my own personal comfort?” (There are many ways to break the ice, this is just one example.)
Remember: A provider who fails, at this point, to invite you to proceed, undefensively, has disqualified himself. Thus, if he responds impatiently, arrogantly, angrily, curtly, condescendingly, as if offended or put-off, or in any other way inadequately, he is wrong for you. You must move on, because you deserve better.
Assuming you’ve gotten the proper encouragement to proceed, I offer below a list of questions (hardly comprehensive) which, depending on your circumstances, can elicit meaningful information. The idea (quite obviously) isn’t to ask all of these questions, but to pursue several that are most applicable to your situation.
This list is by no means complete; rather, it’s at best a starting point, if only to get your own wheels rolling to come up with even better questions! Note that some of the questions probe for knowledge, others for personal views and biases, and others for experience. The asterisked questions can sometimes elicit responses that will enable you to quickly eliminate potential resources.
· How familiar are you with sociopathy?
· How familiar are you with psychopathy?
· Do you distinguish sociopathy and psychopathy, or are we using these terms to mean the same thing?
· Do you distinguish antisocial personality disorder from sociopathy or psychopathy?
· How many cases have you worked involving sociopathy?
· Can I ask how you came to work with these individuals?
· What is your treatment philosophy regarding sociopathically disturbed individuals?
· I’m curious how you view sociopathy? I know that many people have different ideas about sociopaths. Can you tell me your view of what characterizes the sociopath?
· How do you distinguish, if at all, the sociopath from the narcissistic personality?
· What’s been your experience working with borderline personality disturbance?
· In your experience, what are similarities and differences between borderline, narcissistic and sociopathically disordered individuals?
· How much experience have you had working with abusive individuals?
· Can you tell me a little about the history of your interest, and experience working, with abusive personalities?
· *How effective and appropriate, in your experience, are anger management referrals for abusive personalities?
· How much interest, and experience, have you had working with victims of abuse?
· What is your view of what constitutes abuse in a relationship?
· What are your goals in working with someone who is in, or has been damaged by, an abusive relationship?
· *Are there circumstances where someone might be driven, legitimately, to abuse someone else?
· Do you mind if I ask you whose work or writings on abusive relationships and abusive personalities has most influenced your views?
· Do you mind if I ask you whose work on the subject of psychopathy (or sociopathy) has most influenced your ideas?
· *Are you familiar with Robert Hare’s work?
· *Have you successfully treated sociopaths?
· My partner, if you meet him, will tell you that I’m a sociopath”¦how will you know which of us, if either, is the sociopath?
· Are you familiar with any psychological instruments that assess for psychopathy, and if so, do you use them?
· *Under what conditions, if any, would you be hesitant to do couples therapy?
· What goals do you have, generally, when working with a borderline personality?
· What goals do you have, generally, when working with a narcissistic personality?
· What is your understanding of the central feature(s) of sociopathy?
· What is your understanding of the central feature(s) of the narcissist?
· Would you be willing to read something I’d give you if I felt it could help you understand the precidament/situation/personality I’m dealing with?
· When you believe you are dealing clinically with a sociopathic individual, what is your clinical goal?
The answers to your questions
As I’ve strongly suggested, the provider’s responses, first of all, should convey interest in, and respect for, your questions. Your first assessment, then, is less of the provider’s expertise and knowledge, than his or her attitude to your questions.
As a matter of fact, a primary purpose of your questions is to assess the attitude of the provider. In other words, if the provider isn’t temperamentally suited to appreciate the complexity of your concerns, he or she can have all the knowledge in the world and be pretty much worthless.
You’ll want honest answers. Genuine answers. Not pretenses to expertise where there isn’t any. You’ll want a provider who is willing to say, “That’s an interesting question. I might even need to think about that a bit more.”
I offer randomly some rough examples (from countless possibilities) of what might be deemed encouraging responses to some of these questions:
“To be honest, no”¦I haven’t worked with what I’d call a high volume of ________; but I do feel comfortable with my understanding of this clinical issue, and I’d like to be of help to you.”
“I consider myself to be clinically literate on this subject, but I’m happy to become even more enlightened and would welcome anything you have to share with me to get me up to speed.”
“I wouldn’t say that I have a particular interest working with _______, but I do like working with and helping those who have been victimized by ________(s).”
“I suppose I’d regard ______as a very central feature of _______. Also ______.”
“I don’t really make a distinction between antisocial personality and the sociopath? As a matter of fact, I wasn’t even aware of such a distinction? But I’m curious about that? Am I missing something?”
“I’ve worked a great deal with victims of abuse and enjoy working with this client population.”
“I’m not familiar with that issue, to be honest” (depending on the circumstances, this doesn’t necessarily have to be a disqualification).
“I can’t say that I’ve had great success working with narcissistic personalities”¦but I’ll work with anyone who voluntarily seeks my help genuinely.”
“I’m not sure if I satisfied you with my response?”
These hypothetical replies have in common a thoughtful, humble, curious quality. The confident provider will feel relaxed, undefensive, and unpressured to produce brilliant, comprehensive answers beyond his or her scope of expertise.
At the same time, you are looking for evidence of expertise that will leave you feeling comfortable that this is someone who can effectively, sensitively advocate for your interests.
Some responses, as noted, can quickly reveal a provider’s serious limitations.
For instance, the response to the question, Have you successfully treated any sociopaths?, “Yes”¦I’ve worked with many sociopaths and treated several very successfully,” is a great time-saver. You just say, “Thanks very much, I’ve really appreciated your time,” and then have a good laugh on your way out.
That’s because true sociopathy, as the LoveFraud community well knows, is a refractory
condition, unamenable to meaningful modification.
Regarding the Hare question: in cases where a provider claims to be experienced with the subject of sociopathy, I might find it dubious (although not necessarily instantly disqualifying) that he or she would have no knowledge of Robert Hare, who is such a notable figure in psychopathy research.
Similarly, the response to the question, Under what conditions would you be hesitant to do couples therapy?, “Umm”¦.I can’t really think of any?,” would suggest a potentially serious defect in the provider’s clinical knowledge and/or judgement. That’s because couples therapy is ill-advised under several circumstances, among them when serious abuse is occuring in a relationship, or when one or both partners is sociopathically oriented. (And naturally, non-genuine motivation to work on the relationship would be another contraindication.)
Further, a provider who suggests that, yes, a referral for anger management is probably the best intervention you can offer an abusive personality betrays a likely ignorance of the dynamics of the abuser, who has much more than merely an anger problem.
And it’s self-evident that a provider who can find a basis to justify abuse under any circumstance is probably confusing abuse with, perhaps, self-defense—a failure of understanding that ought to send you running for the hills.
Bear in mind there is no one right way to answer many of these questions; in many cases, there are multiple good (and good-enough) answers which also allow for differences in clinical approaches and orientations.
I offer below additional examples (also random, hypothetical) of the kinds of responses that might reflect a reassuring level of clinical expertise:
“What do I see as the central feature of sociopathy? I see the sociopath as someone who is extremely, chronically manipulative and deceptive. Someone who lacks empathy in a very gross way for the victims of his or her exploitation.”
“I see what you mean”¦.you can have a borderline personality disorder doing something, say, really vengeful that might look very sociopathic, but the motive for the aggression would be different. The borderline personality might be motivated by rage, panic, or desperation over, say, abandonment issues, whereas the sociopath? He or she may be movitated by”¦the impulse?”¦pure greed”¦or even the fun of it?”
“If I have good reason to believe I’m dealing with a sociopath, my main goal becomes evaluating his or her risk to others”¦depending, of course, on the circumstances of the referral and case.”
“If I’m working with someone with borderline personality, I’m looking to help that individual, among other things, learn how to better regulate his or her emotions, which may be very dysregulated and for that reason a source of much distress.”
“If I’m working with a narcissistic personality disorder, I’m looking, over time, to help that individual, if possible, examine his demands and expectations of others—his inflated sense of entitlement—more thoughtfully; and also examine the ways that he routinely handles, or mishandles, his disappointment in others.”
“When I’m working with abusive individuals my goal is to confront their excuses and rationalizations for their violating behaviors.”
“When I’m working with victims of abuse I may have several goals, including safety concerns; also exploring how the client finds herself in an abusive relationship, and the factors that make it difficult for her (or him) to leave that relationship.”
“How will I know which of you is the sociopath? I think in any clinical situation, you rely on a number of factors in formulating possible diagnoses, including your instincts, your experience of the individuals, the client’s history (as furnished by the client and others), other relevant, available, supporting documentation; and any adjunctive testing and evaluations that can narrow down, if necessary, a suspected diagnosis more accurately? And so there’s no guarantee that I’ll get it right, but I’m pretty confident of my chances.”
In sum, you’ll want assurances that the provider, at a minimum, can recognize the central aspects of sociopathy (or the disorder in question); he or she should appreciate the futility of pursuing treatment with the sociopath, especially in a private practice setting; but most importantly, the provider should be able to convey a good clinical grasp of, and history of work with, abusive personalities and their victims.
You will know, intuitively, whether the provider’s responses indicate an adequate level of thoughtfulness and knowledge.
And remember, your initial assessment doesn’t end when you choose to begin a working relationship with a particular provider, anymore than you cease evaluating the individual with whom you enter a personal relationship. Your evaluation should be ongoing, and your continued investment in the relationship, whether with a professional resource, or intimate partner, should be based on a continuing evaluation of him or her as worthy of your time and trust.
You can say at any point along the way, This person is not right for me. Just because I sized this person/provider up initially (with necessarily incomplete information) as worth my initial investment, doesn’t mean I can’t modify my assessment of him or her at any time, thanks to my making good use of additional, more complete information!
I hope this offers some guidance for conceptualizing an approach to the evaluation of a relatively unknown prospective provider. I am glad to continue this discussion based on feedback.
(This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
Oops – freudian slip in that last post. The theory that there are plenty of qualified mental health professionals to help us is 98% accurate….not 98% flawed. Yikes. Sorry. (sheepish look)
HH: Again, thank you for articulating, with your own perspective the nuances of the discussion.
Almost two years later, my own parents have started to understand that something happened that wasn’t just the inexplicable end of a relationship. My father was a pastoral counselor for years, with a lot of education in psychology and a DSM-III in his library. My mother taught nursing. They are not naive, except about this. As my father put it, “Well, he was always really nice to us.” This, after the S/P had squandered and misdirected funds that they had lent for my construction projects.
To encounter aggressive disbelief here on the LF site is disconcerting, and it pushes into the realm of re-traumatizing those of us who have encountered disbelief in the therapy room — a place where we are predisposed to trust the expert, and doubt our own judgment.
I felt the same edge that you observed, and it was painful for me. Yet again, my experience was being invalidated. Many of us here are fragile, with wounds that are still raw. I urge that we, as much as we know how, embed our thoughts with courtesy and a compassionate consideration for the truth of the other person’s experience, even when it doesn’t match up with our own.
GRANT, yes…absolutely. Regardless of what you’re seeking help with, and regardless of what a therapist claims to have expertise with, until you find a therapist who is helpful with, sensitive to, and appreciative of your particular struggle, then keep looking.
So, you are right. A therapist who, let’s say, has written many famous books on depression, yet suggests “cheer up!” in the face of one’s presented torture…this is a helleva red flag to make a beeline out of the office and to continue to your search.
Finding the right therapist, I think, is somewhat akin to finding the right partner (or close friend): chemistry is exceedingly important; intangible factors matter a lot, maybe more importantly than anything. And so sometimes, it takes patience, many failed blind dates (and/or initial therapy consultations) to find yourself in a relationship that feels right, for all the right reasons.
By the same token, I do think it’s possible (the basis of my original post) to assess for a sort of baseline experience and interest level (and ATTITIDE) that a particular therapist brings to a particular clinical issue. I do think there are ways to intelligently elicit potentially meaningful feedback from a prospective provider.
MATT noted, for instance, that, to the question, “So, have you worked with borderlines?,” many therapists would say “yes,” and yet that wouldn’t tell you very much. I completely agree.
However, there are better questions than that one, in isolation; questions which mightl weed out more meaningfully where a therapist may be coming from vis a vis a particular clinical issue.
We can agree, by the way, to disagree on that. No problem.
But, to your point, imagine if you are coming to a therapist for depression, and you don’t know much about him, and you ask, “So, uhm…when you work with extremely depressed clients who have no hope at all of feeling better, what are some of your goals, or approaches?,” and the therapist replies, “I tell ’em to cheer up! That’s what I tell ’em…cheer up! It could be worse! You could be living in Ethiopia!!”
Well, in this rough example, that simple, noninvasive (yet subtly probing) question elicits the response of your example of a bone-headed therapist. It might have saved you some time (to have asked it)?
Apologies for rambling. I’m down for the rest of the weekend.
Best to all, and thanks!
Dear Healing heart, Matt, Rune, Grant, Wini, Eyeofthestorm (hopefully I forgot nobody). Yes I think this is a very strong grieving process, in fact it is the most grieving I ever experienced in my life so far.
It is the grief about my mother who NEVER loved me the way I was and always wanted me to be OTHER than I actually was (A BOY (!), thinner, nicer, brighter, better groomed, more lovable, more selfassured etc), the grief about my father who NEVER loved me and made bad jokes about my efforts to be loved by him, the grief of the loss of my P who seemed to be “my father who actually LOVES me” so I could solve this trauma, the grief of the lost happy childhood and the bitter grief about the little girl that has had to play a very unfortunate and unwanted role in a play “Happy family with N and P”, which was a complete failure as well, and the grief about the missed chances and wasted time of my life so far for my “bad choices” and strange behaviour of self sabotage, procrastination, mood swings and the like. It impeded me to find an appropriate partner right on time to have a family and kids, and now it is definitely too late.
For me my parents are now like they are “dead”, not anymore part of my life. I talk to them but I do not have more compassion towards them as I have to my next human being I come across and meet on the street.
I once went to see a psychologist about 9 years ago to solve my “relationship issues” as I was single for 5 years by then, and I wanted to have a child but not without a functioning relationship, and I wanted “a quick fix” as my biological watch was ticking. I was always dating “wrong” people and I was not interested in the ones that were fond of me. After two sessions I felt that she would not be able to help me and that I would be a “helpless case” so I quit and said to her “I am not gonna have children, I am grieving now”. She was very pleased with the result! It was just a waste of time. Maybe if I had enough patience with the therapeut I would have been able to go to the depths I have reached now, but I am not sure. I was still in the fog of my parents, and I did not even know by then that I was under the fog or even that there IS a FOG and that there is a sun (= love) TOO that also shines FOR ME, and that I deserve SEEING the sun, that my parents should have been the ones to show me the sun (=love me) in the first place. It was like being always under the fog that seems to be clouds, very depressing! When you go high enough up the hill you come to the very dense fog layer, and afterwards you see the sun you never would exspect being under the fog.
Only my encounter with P last year lifted the fog. It ultimately led to a complete deconstruction of my self, a “total eclipse of the heart”, as Bonny Tylor sings, and also a vanishing of the crust over my heart that led to a huge wound that is slowly healing.
I now have to get accustomed to the sun, which is quite unusual, it is painful at times, because it is all TOO clear now, I see also MY flaws and MY responsibility in the whole, and I now have to get different clothing (it is warmer and DRY!), sunglasses (all is brighter, more colorful), sunscreen, and the air and everything and everyone is more cheerful. And I LOVE it! I am not healed yet, but I found MY SUN (= I LIKE MYSELF WITH ALL MY FLAWS AND STRENGHT AND I GIVE A Bleep whether the others like me or not). I am not THEIR sun either.
I also want to comment that I find the comments of you all very honest and straight from the heart, and they are very helpful for me, brainfood, helping me sorting out my thoughts. I think writing for me is kind of therapeutic as I quit writing my diary at age 12 when I had an argument with my mother who read iin my diary and she was not pleased with what I was writing about her. I since then wrote that she could also read it and not be offended.
A cancer patient once told me that she felt during chemotherapy like a “tree without bark”, and I also feel this way sometimes, and words can be very hurtful. I feel safe to come here, find you all, and I can ruminate, think, laugh, learn new words (skillet, my mothertong is German), and especially in the beginning the welcome from all of you was SO WONDERFUL. I do not think I ever need another therapist than you all. I see us as a self-help-group, and as such we have gathered a HUGE amount of knowledge, including this blog, the library on different topics, and the great brains behind the keyboards.
If therapeuts call us “silly” or “get over it” or get angry at our questioning their ability to “get it”, it is not OUR problem. Maybe there is a dash of N in it? (I AM THE EXPERT YOU DUMBHEAD! I CAN PROVE IT WITH A DIPLOMA!!!) But to quit a therapeutic relationship is quite difficult. You have to abandon a person you trusted in the first place and they might have their own issues (mortgage!, ego-issues, relationship issues between the two of you etc) and might use tricks (as the P/N/S, as I come to realise just now) to keep you to be “on track”, as it is tedious to find a new client, get to build up a new relationship etc. But I would like to assume that 98% of all the therapeuts are honest and really trying to be helpful.
It seems to be difficult on either side, even if all went well so far.
I wish you all a very peaceful evening
Healing Heart, Rune and all LFers,
I wholeheartedly appreciate every word that is written from both of you.
Not only are you gentle, loving and compassionate women but so flippin wise and highly intelligent also.
My thinking processes move in a more practical, rational, less complicated way and it is my saving grace.
I do accept and embrace my own unique intelligence even with my obvious limitations on grasping more complex theories and ideas.
But I don’t ever feel inferior as I am a perpetual student, seeking enlightenment and knowledge from as many sources, people as I can. How can I not? Essential to my growth.
Anyway, HH, you said up there that we are all in different stages of the grief and healing process as evident by the content of our comments.
I confess that I am healed from the damaging dysfunction in my childhood to proceeding years and years of painful, destructive involvements with friends and lovers.
My last encounter with a Sociopath (ending in spring of 2008) caused so much grief, misery and heartache that it seemed the only recourse I had was to time travel to the past and “dig up that buried gold” as Donna so brilliantly described in an earlier essay of hers.
That gold, no matter how excrutiating the pain of remembrance, saved me.
I confronted it, mulled it over, beat up a few pillows in fury and outrage, cried tons of tears while curled up on the floor in a fetal position, then finally after a period of time…relief was acquired.
I felt purged and exonerated but still feeling a smoldering anger deep in my gut that I’m just not able to relinquish. Not yet, anyway.
And I’ll hold on to that righteous fury for however long I want to. As long as there are PDIs slithering in the world, my self-preservation is paramount to me.
I absolutely do NOT want to ever go through that chit again. Nor will I.
Once we have accumulated the life saving knowledge regarding their evil personality and behavior criteria, we learn the necessary skills and preventative measures to protect ourselves.
IF we continually heed them, highly value them and never disregard their importance. Just my 2 cents.
And, I would like to state for the LF record that I DO NOT invalidate, dismiss any tragic experiences I have read on this blog. How incredibly insensitive would that make me? yuck!
You all feel what you feel, know what you know based on your own personal experiences without the interference of nay-sayers.
Do what you need to do to help, care and love yourself. It’s perfectly ok, rational and acceptable to attend to yourself however you wish to do that, and you shouldn’t feel guilt or shame in that endeavor.
It’s a must have, and a must do in order to preserve your emotional, psychological, spiritual beautiful selves. And your precious sanity, I might add.
You all have my full support and concern whether I express it to the LF community or not.
Be well, be strong….
With love,
JS
JS: What a beautiful love letter — for all of us. Thank you.
libelle,….Thank you for your moving and heartfelt post. This is quite an extraordinary group, isn’t it! We are glad you are a part of it. Keep writing if you find that it helps; expressing one’s thoughts can help clarify life experience …your English is perfect, BTW.
I’m sorry you have suffered. Not feeling loved by one’s parents leaves a void in our hearts that translates into vulnerability in later life.
May you find your place in the sun and thrive as you were meant to do!
Jane Smith…
You wrote….”I felt purged and exonerated but still feeling a smoldering anger deep in my gut that I’m just not able to relinquish. Not yet, anyway.
And I’ll hold on to that righteous fury for however long I want to. As long as there are PDIs slithering in the world, my self-preservation is paramount to me. ”
I agree with you about this. I have learned to value my anger and I am not ready to extinguish mine either, nor do I want to. It is a survival emotion, and it’s purpose is to preserve, protect, and defend. As Julia Cameron states in her insightful commentary on anger, it tells us where we have been, that we didn’t like it, and that we are in danger of repeating what is not good for us!
I have learned to see my anger as an indicator and to pay attention to it’s message. If I feel angry, something is not right, something is going on that I have to pay attention to. We have these feelings built into us for a reason. They can be part of our early warning system when we learn how to use them.
HEALINGHeart, perhaps you are right. Perhaps some of my comments have been a tad defensive or anger-edged. If that’s the perception, I own it. However, several responses to my comments have struck me as misrepresenting my positions and worse, my intentions.
WINI, for instance, in an earlier comment, expressed the suggestion, and “resentment” that I blame victims of exploitation. I will admit it: this kind of feedback, unsupported and utterly antithetical to what I believe and do on a daily basis (which is to validate and label experiences of exploitation and confront exploiters) gets my ire.
If the perception of the LoveFraud audience, based on what I’ve written for LoveFraud, is that I’m an advocate for exploiters, and a victim-blamer, then I’ve sadly misinterpreted the response to most of my posts and will need to rethink what I’m doing.
You, in this case, take the word “silly” out of one of my comments (out of context) and hold it up as evidence of my perhaps insensitivity. Yet in context, I suggested that it is “silly” to bemoan and become stuck in preoccupation with therapists that “don’t get it,” and much wiser to mobilize and find one that does. I was not begrudging you or anyone (or myself) from sharing the effects of particular, frustrating therapy experiences. However I was reacting to comments along the line suggesting generalities like “therapists don’t get it. They can never get it. They just don’t understand our experience,” implying the futility of finding a helpful, unclueless provider.
To that end, the intent of my latest post was to assist help-seekers to find, perhaps sooner than later, such a provider. I could spend the rest of my life focused on the spate of shrinks with whom I wasted years of my time; and if I’m not careful, I know I can easily spend much more of my life settling in with additional therapists who are wrong (for me). I can appreciate the discouragement and pessimism that builds with every nonsatisfying psychotherapy experience.
But regardless of what I, or you, or anyone is seeking relief and/or recovery from, the task is to find the right resource.
I want to apologize to anyone I may have inadvertently offended in any of my comments in this thread. GRANT, MATT, WINI, HEALING-Heart and others….if i’ve offended you, or been abrasive in my tone, my apologies. I’ll watch out for that. I really do mean that.
Steve: Thank you for coming back.