I write this column (using “he” throughout, for simplicity purposes) to suggest some useful ideas for vetting a prospective provider who does not come recommended through a reliable source (or through Donna Anderson’s growing new LoveFraud referral base).
How can you begin to assess a relatively unknown provider for his competence to address your experiences with a suspected sociopath specifically, exploiter in general, or otherwise personality-disturbed individual?
Let me start by suggesting that a provider who claims to be educated about sociopathy really isn’t if he lacks an equally fluent understanding of narcissistic and borderline personality disorder.
The reason I say this is that, under certain circumstances, all three disorders can look very much alike; but more importantly, if you are involved with someone who has any one of these disorders, you are at heightened risk of being personally violated and abused.
So, while they are distinct from each other (although common elements of narcissism and sociopathy remain intriguing), I’m suggesting that all three disorders greatly increase the probable, if not certain, occurrence of interpersonal violation.
In the course of this discussion, I’m going to assume that you may be involved with someone (or have been involved with someone) whom you suspect (or know) to be, for instance, sociopathic and/or abusive? Otherwise you wouldn’t be seeking assurances that a particular provider has knowledge and/or expertise of the disorder(s) in question.
I also make the assumption that LoveFraud members or visitors wanting to find a knowledgeable resource on sociopathy (who do not find assistance through Donna’s new referral resource) come with a nice advantage—by virtue of their involvement with LoveFraud, they are already extra knowledgeable on the subject. This equips them to be astute evaluators of a prospective resource.
So let’s get down to business.
You will need, no surprise, to ask questions; questions that can gauge the provider’s competency to appreciate the gravity of a situation in which a sociopathic (or some other exploitative dynamic) is, or has been, present.
And you will want good, expressive answers to your questions, not dismissive ones.
The first, vital task is to assess the provider’s receptivity to your interest in his clinical experience. This point needs emphasis: You are entitled to evaluate the provider’s clinical experience and expertise as it pertains to your circumstances.
I stress: You are completely, utterly entitled to assess the provider’s professional experience, skills, and interest on matters relevant to your personal circumstances and self-interest.
Remember, this is not about protecting the provider; it’s about protecting yourself.
As such, this speaks to a bigger issue: You are setting yourself up if you do not protect yourself, and so you protect yourself by owning your right to a completely respectful, receptive invitation to evaluate the provider’s scope of interest and competence with a given client population, or in a particular clinical area. Anything less than a genuine, undefensive invitation from the provider to proceed with your questions should immediately disqualify him from consideration.
So for instance, you might begin with something like, “You know, it’s very important to me, given my circumstances, to be working with someone I can feel confident has a really good knowledge of _________. Would you mind if I asked you several questions along those lines, for my own personal comfort?” (There are many ways to break the ice, this is just one example.)
Remember: A provider who fails, at this point, to invite you to proceed, undefensively, has disqualified himself. Thus, if he responds impatiently, arrogantly, angrily, curtly, condescendingly, as if offended or put-off, or in any other way inadequately, he is wrong for you. You must move on, because you deserve better.
Assuming you’ve gotten the proper encouragement to proceed, I offer below a list of questions (hardly comprehensive) which, depending on your circumstances, can elicit meaningful information. The idea (quite obviously) isn’t to ask all of these questions, but to pursue several that are most applicable to your situation.
This list is by no means complete; rather, it’s at best a starting point, if only to get your own wheels rolling to come up with even better questions! Note that some of the questions probe for knowledge, others for personal views and biases, and others for experience. The asterisked questions can sometimes elicit responses that will enable you to quickly eliminate potential resources.
· How familiar are you with sociopathy?
· How familiar are you with psychopathy?
· Do you distinguish sociopathy and psychopathy, or are we using these terms to mean the same thing?
· Do you distinguish antisocial personality disorder from sociopathy or psychopathy?
· How many cases have you worked involving sociopathy?
· Can I ask how you came to work with these individuals?
· What is your treatment philosophy regarding sociopathically disturbed individuals?
· I’m curious how you view sociopathy? I know that many people have different ideas about sociopaths. Can you tell me your view of what characterizes the sociopath?
· How do you distinguish, if at all, the sociopath from the narcissistic personality?
· What’s been your experience working with borderline personality disturbance?
· In your experience, what are similarities and differences between borderline, narcissistic and sociopathically disordered individuals?
· How much experience have you had working with abusive individuals?
· Can you tell me a little about the history of your interest, and experience working, with abusive personalities?
· *How effective and appropriate, in your experience, are anger management referrals for abusive personalities?
· How much interest, and experience, have you had working with victims of abuse?
· What is your view of what constitutes abuse in a relationship?
· What are your goals in working with someone who is in, or has been damaged by, an abusive relationship?
· *Are there circumstances where someone might be driven, legitimately, to abuse someone else?
· Do you mind if I ask you whose work or writings on abusive relationships and abusive personalities has most influenced your views?
· Do you mind if I ask you whose work on the subject of psychopathy (or sociopathy) has most influenced your ideas?
· *Are you familiar with Robert Hare’s work?
· *Have you successfully treated sociopaths?
· My partner, if you meet him, will tell you that I’m a sociopath”¦how will you know which of us, if either, is the sociopath?
· Are you familiar with any psychological instruments that assess for psychopathy, and if so, do you use them?
· *Under what conditions, if any, would you be hesitant to do couples therapy?
· What goals do you have, generally, when working with a borderline personality?
· What goals do you have, generally, when working with a narcissistic personality?
· What is your understanding of the central feature(s) of sociopathy?
· What is your understanding of the central feature(s) of the narcissist?
· Would you be willing to read something I’d give you if I felt it could help you understand the precidament/situation/personality I’m dealing with?
· When you believe you are dealing clinically with a sociopathic individual, what is your clinical goal?
The answers to your questions
As I’ve strongly suggested, the provider’s responses, first of all, should convey interest in, and respect for, your questions. Your first assessment, then, is less of the provider’s expertise and knowledge, than his or her attitude to your questions.
As a matter of fact, a primary purpose of your questions is to assess the attitude of the provider. In other words, if the provider isn’t temperamentally suited to appreciate the complexity of your concerns, he or she can have all the knowledge in the world and be pretty much worthless.
You’ll want honest answers. Genuine answers. Not pretenses to expertise where there isn’t any. You’ll want a provider who is willing to say, “That’s an interesting question. I might even need to think about that a bit more.”
I offer randomly some rough examples (from countless possibilities) of what might be deemed encouraging responses to some of these questions:
“To be honest, no”¦I haven’t worked with what I’d call a high volume of ________; but I do feel comfortable with my understanding of this clinical issue, and I’d like to be of help to you.”
“I consider myself to be clinically literate on this subject, but I’m happy to become even more enlightened and would welcome anything you have to share with me to get me up to speed.”
“I wouldn’t say that I have a particular interest working with _______, but I do like working with and helping those who have been victimized by ________(s).”
“I suppose I’d regard ______as a very central feature of _______. Also ______.”
“I don’t really make a distinction between antisocial personality and the sociopath? As a matter of fact, I wasn’t even aware of such a distinction? But I’m curious about that? Am I missing something?”
“I’ve worked a great deal with victims of abuse and enjoy working with this client population.”
“I’m not familiar with that issue, to be honest” (depending on the circumstances, this doesn’t necessarily have to be a disqualification).
“I can’t say that I’ve had great success working with narcissistic personalities”¦but I’ll work with anyone who voluntarily seeks my help genuinely.”
“I’m not sure if I satisfied you with my response?”
These hypothetical replies have in common a thoughtful, humble, curious quality. The confident provider will feel relaxed, undefensive, and unpressured to produce brilliant, comprehensive answers beyond his or her scope of expertise.
At the same time, you are looking for evidence of expertise that will leave you feeling comfortable that this is someone who can effectively, sensitively advocate for your interests.
Some responses, as noted, can quickly reveal a provider’s serious limitations.
For instance, the response to the question, Have you successfully treated any sociopaths?, “Yes”¦I’ve worked with many sociopaths and treated several very successfully,” is a great time-saver. You just say, “Thanks very much, I’ve really appreciated your time,” and then have a good laugh on your way out.
That’s because true sociopathy, as the LoveFraud community well knows, is a refractory
condition, unamenable to meaningful modification.
Regarding the Hare question: in cases where a provider claims to be experienced with the subject of sociopathy, I might find it dubious (although not necessarily instantly disqualifying) that he or she would have no knowledge of Robert Hare, who is such a notable figure in psychopathy research.
Similarly, the response to the question, Under what conditions would you be hesitant to do couples therapy?, “Umm”¦.I can’t really think of any?,” would suggest a potentially serious defect in the provider’s clinical knowledge and/or judgement. That’s because couples therapy is ill-advised under several circumstances, among them when serious abuse is occuring in a relationship, or when one or both partners is sociopathically oriented. (And naturally, non-genuine motivation to work on the relationship would be another contraindication.)
Further, a provider who suggests that, yes, a referral for anger management is probably the best intervention you can offer an abusive personality betrays a likely ignorance of the dynamics of the abuser, who has much more than merely an anger problem.
And it’s self-evident that a provider who can find a basis to justify abuse under any circumstance is probably confusing abuse with, perhaps, self-defense—a failure of understanding that ought to send you running for the hills.
Bear in mind there is no one right way to answer many of these questions; in many cases, there are multiple good (and good-enough) answers which also allow for differences in clinical approaches and orientations.
I offer below additional examples (also random, hypothetical) of the kinds of responses that might reflect a reassuring level of clinical expertise:
“What do I see as the central feature of sociopathy? I see the sociopath as someone who is extremely, chronically manipulative and deceptive. Someone who lacks empathy in a very gross way for the victims of his or her exploitation.”
“I see what you mean”¦.you can have a borderline personality disorder doing something, say, really vengeful that might look very sociopathic, but the motive for the aggression would be different. The borderline personality might be motivated by rage, panic, or desperation over, say, abandonment issues, whereas the sociopath? He or she may be movitated by”¦the impulse?”¦pure greed”¦or even the fun of it?”
“If I have good reason to believe I’m dealing with a sociopath, my main goal becomes evaluating his or her risk to others”¦depending, of course, on the circumstances of the referral and case.”
“If I’m working with someone with borderline personality, I’m looking to help that individual, among other things, learn how to better regulate his or her emotions, which may be very dysregulated and for that reason a source of much distress.”
“If I’m working with a narcissistic personality disorder, I’m looking, over time, to help that individual, if possible, examine his demands and expectations of others—his inflated sense of entitlement—more thoughtfully; and also examine the ways that he routinely handles, or mishandles, his disappointment in others.”
“When I’m working with abusive individuals my goal is to confront their excuses and rationalizations for their violating behaviors.”
“When I’m working with victims of abuse I may have several goals, including safety concerns; also exploring how the client finds herself in an abusive relationship, and the factors that make it difficult for her (or him) to leave that relationship.”
“How will I know which of you is the sociopath? I think in any clinical situation, you rely on a number of factors in formulating possible diagnoses, including your instincts, your experience of the individuals, the client’s history (as furnished by the client and others), other relevant, available, supporting documentation; and any adjunctive testing and evaluations that can narrow down, if necessary, a suspected diagnosis more accurately? And so there’s no guarantee that I’ll get it right, but I’m pretty confident of my chances.”
In sum, you’ll want assurances that the provider, at a minimum, can recognize the central aspects of sociopathy (or the disorder in question); he or she should appreciate the futility of pursuing treatment with the sociopath, especially in a private practice setting; but most importantly, the provider should be able to convey a good clinical grasp of, and history of work with, abusive personalities and their victims.
You will know, intuitively, whether the provider’s responses indicate an adequate level of thoughtfulness and knowledge.
And remember, your initial assessment doesn’t end when you choose to begin a working relationship with a particular provider, anymore than you cease evaluating the individual with whom you enter a personal relationship. Your evaluation should be ongoing, and your continued investment in the relationship, whether with a professional resource, or intimate partner, should be based on a continuing evaluation of him or her as worthy of your time and trust.
You can say at any point along the way, This person is not right for me. Just because I sized this person/provider up initially (with necessarily incomplete information) as worth my initial investment, doesn’t mean I can’t modify my assessment of him or her at any time, thanks to my making good use of additional, more complete information!
I hope this offers some guidance for conceptualizing an approach to the evaluation of a relatively unknown prospective provider. I am glad to continue this discussion based on feedback.
(This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
To one extent, you have to look at the therapist—are THEY any better than we are? I worked as a therapist with BPDs and others, was I a good therapist? A compassionate one? An effective one? Sometimes. Maybe sometimes not so much. At this point in time, I am no longer sure. My clients liked me. EVen the BPDs liked me.
Also, the old queston of “what do you call the physician who finished last in their class?” DOCTOR! Not al therapists are healthy themselves, not all therapists are as smart as others, or as compassionate.
I know several “successful” therapists who are BPDs. I worked for one for about 6 months once until she went off on me and I quit. Doing a bit of checking, I realized she had done this same song and dance to EVERY other employee there at one time or another, and she was totally suprised when I very nicely turned in my resignation and never spoke to her again for the entire time of my working out my “notice.”
BTW I was warned about her before I took the job too and she already had me hooked and I didn’t listen. DUH!
In the past I have had therapy professionally, I have also had “unofficial therapy” working in the psych field, as well as voracious reading and self examination, as well as blogging here. I did have Rapid Eye Movement Therapy for the PTSD from the plane crash that killed my husband, but over all I have done most of it myself.
I do take antidepresants and have since the plane crash, though I am down to a low doze now (about half of what I did take) but have decided not to try to decrease the dose any more for a while at least. Last January I decreased them because I had gone to visit a friend for a month or so and hadn’t gottne my RX refilled so I halved the dose to “make them last” and had a melt down. So if I do decrease the dose I will do it in the summer time when I am seeing lots of sunshine. But, if it is working, don’t try “fixing” it! is a pretty good motto.
Also whether or not a person can effectively “treat themselves” depends on a lot of things I think, one is their level of awareness and the validity of their SELF-assessment. Do they have a feed back system so that if they “get off track” they can have someone “check” them? I did have a feed back to my self-assessment, via my son and I trusted his judgment to “watch” me and bring to my attention if I started being “squirrely” LOL
Oxy,
You mention, “Also whether or not a person can effectively “treat themselves”
I think this might be an important point. I did not go to a psychologist seeking “treatment”. I was seeking an adult conversation about a destructive situation hoping a professional expert might be able to bring some insight, definition, and organization to what was happening as well as suggest come strategies for handling the people involved. All I got was gaslighting that diminshed my experience, and invalidation because the ‘therapist’ did not know what to say or how to answer my questions.
My early reading was in all the books by Patricia Evans. She does not have professional credentials, but she has an honorary degree conferred by experience, IMO. She has been through it and has made a career of helpng others. I found some of the best books for coping with destructive people and about healing were written by individuals without professional credentials.
That brings us back to the other point of debate. When you go through it and come out the other side whole and in one piece, you become an expert and in some cases you do know more than someone with initials after his name! The professional literature is not written in a secret code; we can educate ourselves and we can have valid opinions about theories, approaches, and their application traumatic circumstances.
Hey, all:
Am sitting here watching “Hush, Hush Sweet Charolotte.” Talk about a primer in gaslighting.
Matt: I’m watching it too!
shabbychic2:
Brings back a lot of memories, huh?
I’ve been watching “48 Hours Mystery” and “Dateline” lately. I normally don’t watch much TV at all, but with winter here, I started, and EVERY one of these shows is about a PSYCHOPATH(S) AND NONE OF THEM CALL THEM THAT!!!!
Someone (with some letters after their name probably) needs to contact these people and say CALL A PSYCHOPATH A PSYCHOPATH!!
You are right, Matt, “Hush, Hush, Sweet Charolette” is definitely gaslighting! I haven’t seen that show in years and years! I’d almost forgotten about it.
I agree that not everyone is “qualified” by education and intellect and insight to treat themselves BUT, and here is the BIG BUT, a therapist isn’t necessarily qualified just because they have the letters after their name. Again, too, just because a physician hasn’t had cancer doesn’t mean they are not qualified to treat your cancer, or a heart attack or so on. You CAN learn about things without having to experience them personally.
You can personally experience things that you know ZIP about.
So I think ultimately, that “Jane and Joe Plummer” may not be able to “treat/heal/rescue” (whatever word you want to use) themselves because they don’t know the basics of the subject, much less the names and concepts.
I think, frankly, the group here on LF is A) brighter and B) better educated than the majority of “victims” of psychopaths across the board. 100% of us are literate, use a computer, etc. and that isn’t the case with 100% of the victims. We have access to research and literature on the subject(s) to turn to, etc.
Many of us have medical/psychological training. All these things work in our favor.
However, like the old saw “a lawyer (physician) who has himself for a client/patient, has a FOOL for a client/platient” and I definitely BELIEVE THAT.
It is very difficult for me to BE the patient. Not that I turn my care 100% over to anyone (no patient should not be in the loop of decision making on their health) but at the same time, because I am a health care provider, it makes it more difficult to be the patient.
The role change from provider to patient was a difficult one for me. One I had to work at. Have input, but not be overbearing or pushy. Fortunately I have had great providers.
If I go into that realm of “It’s all as it’s supposed to be . . .,” then I guess I’m supposed to be healing myself (with the able assistance of all you lovely, and well-trained, LF folks), since I don’t have access to any MH therapist other than those who have already proven themselves to be “a danger to . . . others.”
Oxy: Have you considered that you might be one of “God’s favorite children,” since you’ve had so much exposure to so many flavors of S/P/N — at home, in the workplace, in your extended family, the renter, etc., etc? You know this story from so many different sides, even as you acting as therapist for others.
Are some of us supposed to “get” this lesson, so we can pass our learning on to others? At age 18 I married one of the worst (he would score high on the PCL-R). But he wasn’t as extreme as the most recent S/P. And the first one ripped thirty years out of my life. What we know!
Now, what are we going to do with it!
Dear Rune,
QUOTE: “What are we going to do with it?”
Well, you are right, I am here on LF, but believe it or not, I GET MORE than I “give” here by a factor of 1000X.
I think anytime we learn anything of any value to others or to the world we are supposed to pass it on. To mentor others, to teach others, to assist others, to support others.
I ay be one of God’s favorite children, but I thnk I have been in “special ed” classes and had to repeat them over and over until I GOT THE LESSON FINALLY! LOL I hope and pray that I have GOTTEN THE LESSON this time around.
I also believe that God doesn’t put more on us than we can handle, but it doesn’t mean he doesn’t put ALL ON US WE CAN HANDLE, AND THEN STRENGTHEN US.
Just as weight lifting strengthens our muscles, emotional and other “challenges” strengthen our souls. The peopole I have seen who “fell apart” at the emotional equivalent of a “paper cut” are those that have had a “charmed” life without any loss or challenges. I see parents who when their kids’ cat dies, rush out and buy them another one and don’t let them grieve the loss of their pet. I don’t think by “protecting” the child from feeling their grief they are doing the kid a favor. We learn by the things we endure and rise above.
I endured a lot, but I didn’t fully rise above it all, I kept falling back into the same pits with the Ps because I didn’t realize what was the real problem. If you don’t DIAGNOSE the problem you can’t fix it.
One of the first things I learned in medical/nursing was that you have to have a CORRECT DIAGNOSIS before you can treat anything.
For years they thought stomach ulcers were caused by “stress’ (and stress does contribute to them) but the REAL cause was a bacteria, which was discovered by a physician in Australia. It took 12 years before he finally got the rest of the medical field to realize he was RIGHT! Now ulcers are easily treated with a simple antibiotic.
For a long time (until quite recently actually) they thought schiphrenia was caused by “harsh controlling parents” and blamed the parents for their children’s mental illness. Now, they do know that it is genetic, and there are medications that help control it so that the victims can in some cases live productive and happy lives. And, they have stopped beating up the parents and blaming them.
Until WE can correctly diagnose the “problem”—THE WHOLE PROBLEM—which is that we have come up against someone that is evil intentioned, sly and cunning and abusive, and there is no known way to fix them, AND admit that WE have allowed this to happen repeatedly, we can’t fix the problem in our own lives. WE must get them OUT of our lives, and learn to set appropriate boundaries, look for red flags in new people we meet and since we can’t change them, we can only CHANGE OUR REACTIONS TO THEM.
I live in a part of the country that has a fairly large number of Copperhead snakes that are poison. They like to stay around houses and barns and hide under things. I don’t want to get bitten and I cannot change the fact that the snakes are around here and that they are LIKELY to be in my barn, or even on my porch, so in the warm months of the year I CHANGE THE WAY I BEHAVE because I can’t change the way they behave, and I can’t make them not poison, or not likely to bite me if I approach them unawares.
I dont live in terror of these snakes, but I do respect the danger they pose, and I use CAUTION by not putting my hand under places I can’t SEE first. I don’t go outside at night without shoes with closed toes because I can’t see where I am putting my feet. When I am pulling weeds I wear gloves.
I CHANGE MYSELF in response to the danger posed by the snakes. Doesn’t mean I will never get bitten, but I have learned to identify the harmless snakes and the poison ones.
I think it is the same with the psychopaths. WE need to learn the patterns that they display just like we learn to distinguish a rattle snake or copper head from a garden or king snake. (It would be nice if we could round them all up and brand them on the forehead with a big letter P!)
Rune, you are in my prayers and I hope things improve for you soon. (((hugs))))
Thank you, Oxy. I had an interesting pop quiz two days ago. I was brought in as a last-minute replacement for a designated “cat sitter.” The cat owner (4 elderly cats, and the owner’s mother died, so it was a sudden, unplanned need) had brought in a cat-sitter on a friend’s recommendation, and was having second thoughts. Then someone called me. So, I got to suss out the situation: First cat-sitter had to be picked up by the grieving daughter/cat owner in a marathon 3-hour round trip (otherwise a $15 bus ride, but he couldn’t take the bus). He then insisted that cat owner chauffeur him around to do various errands rather than pack her bag and get on a plane. He bought her lunch, told her she needed a man around the house, told her she didn’t eat right and didn’t feed the cats right, and described how he really liked animals, but he also had given away his various pets over the years. He was a minister, former gang member, “saved” by a famous pastor in NYC, and grew up on a ranch. Somewhere in that first day, upon learning that cat owner was single, he proposed marriage. I met cat sitter #1 at the end of day 1. I got a 45-minute monologue on all his adventures as a minister, friend of judges, savior of man, etc. Cat owner had a 6:00 a.m. flight and she begged me to get cat sitter #1 onto a bus to go back to his home turf. In the early a.m., after cat owner left, cat sitter #1 made a call to his “really good friends; the woman is like a mother to me” (he’s 74, the friends — a couple — are in their 50s) and the couple decided to drive their own 3-hour round trip to retrieve the erstwhile cat sitter. While waiting for the chauffeuring friends to arrive, I got to hear about how he had friends back home who always fed him steak and free meals in restaurants, he ran a major detailing shop in Houston, he’d been in the ministry for 30 years, and he’d been in AA for 30 years. He also wondered if I was married or had a boyfriend. (I think I narrowly avoided a marriage proposal of my own.) I heard a lot of “Jesus Christ” and “Lord” said in a tone of voice that I might have thought blasphemous, except he kept reminding me of his ministry service. He also complained about all the cat hair that had gotten on his sweatshirt, and how it would never come off. “I’ll just have to throw it away!” (I’m remembering another S/P’s $500 shoes here, and noticing that the behavior was just about the same.)
Uh, he wasn’t a Navy SEAL, but I think he missed that by a generation. Otherwise, did I do OK spotting the S/P/N in cat owner’s livingroom? I’m thinking that if he hadn’t been bundled back to his home town, he might have been remodeling, inviting in new friends, marrying the next door neighbor — who knows what? After all, the cat owner was going to be gone for four whole days. That’s plenty of time for an industrious nut-bag to take possession of someone else’s property and drive his own agenda, right?
When we know the signs, and we’re not emotionally targeted, it’s a lot easier to catch them faster. Not that this old boy was sophisticated, but he certainly had “leech” written all over him.
We don’t need names for them, the Bible already tells us why they do what they do.
“Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, except through Me.”
(John 14:6)
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
(Proverbs 16:13)
“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
(Proverbs 16:14)
I’ve read the last few blogs of folks thinking or actually trying to date again. I refuse to forget how our society has made it very easy for the sin of perversion to cloud the minds of the multitudes. All of us on this blog are testimony to this fact due to our EXs.
Peace.