I write this column (using “he” throughout, for simplicity purposes) to suggest some useful ideas for vetting a prospective provider who does not come recommended through a reliable source (or through Donna Anderson’s growing new LoveFraud referral base).
How can you begin to assess a relatively unknown provider for his competence to address your experiences with a suspected sociopath specifically, exploiter in general, or otherwise personality-disturbed individual?
Let me start by suggesting that a provider who claims to be educated about sociopathy really isn’t if he lacks an equally fluent understanding of narcissistic and borderline personality disorder.
The reason I say this is that, under certain circumstances, all three disorders can look very much alike; but more importantly, if you are involved with someone who has any one of these disorders, you are at heightened risk of being personally violated and abused.
So, while they are distinct from each other (although common elements of narcissism and sociopathy remain intriguing), I’m suggesting that all three disorders greatly increase the probable, if not certain, occurrence of interpersonal violation.
In the course of this discussion, I’m going to assume that you may be involved with someone (or have been involved with someone) whom you suspect (or know) to be, for instance, sociopathic and/or abusive? Otherwise you wouldn’t be seeking assurances that a particular provider has knowledge and/or expertise of the disorder(s) in question.
I also make the assumption that LoveFraud members or visitors wanting to find a knowledgeable resource on sociopathy (who do not find assistance through Donna’s new referral resource) come with a nice advantage—by virtue of their involvement with LoveFraud, they are already extra knowledgeable on the subject. This equips them to be astute evaluators of a prospective resource.
So let’s get down to business.
You will need, no surprise, to ask questions; questions that can gauge the provider’s competency to appreciate the gravity of a situation in which a sociopathic (or some other exploitative dynamic) is, or has been, present.
And you will want good, expressive answers to your questions, not dismissive ones.
The first, vital task is to assess the provider’s receptivity to your interest in his clinical experience. This point needs emphasis: You are entitled to evaluate the provider’s clinical experience and expertise as it pertains to your circumstances.
I stress: You are completely, utterly entitled to assess the provider’s professional experience, skills, and interest on matters relevant to your personal circumstances and self-interest.
Remember, this is not about protecting the provider; it’s about protecting yourself.
As such, this speaks to a bigger issue: You are setting yourself up if you do not protect yourself, and so you protect yourself by owning your right to a completely respectful, receptive invitation to evaluate the provider’s scope of interest and competence with a given client population, or in a particular clinical area. Anything less than a genuine, undefensive invitation from the provider to proceed with your questions should immediately disqualify him from consideration.
So for instance, you might begin with something like, “You know, it’s very important to me, given my circumstances, to be working with someone I can feel confident has a really good knowledge of _________. Would you mind if I asked you several questions along those lines, for my own personal comfort?” (There are many ways to break the ice, this is just one example.)
Remember: A provider who fails, at this point, to invite you to proceed, undefensively, has disqualified himself. Thus, if he responds impatiently, arrogantly, angrily, curtly, condescendingly, as if offended or put-off, or in any other way inadequately, he is wrong for you. You must move on, because you deserve better.
Assuming you’ve gotten the proper encouragement to proceed, I offer below a list of questions (hardly comprehensive) which, depending on your circumstances, can elicit meaningful information. The idea (quite obviously) isn’t to ask all of these questions, but to pursue several that are most applicable to your situation.
This list is by no means complete; rather, it’s at best a starting point, if only to get your own wheels rolling to come up with even better questions! Note that some of the questions probe for knowledge, others for personal views and biases, and others for experience. The asterisked questions can sometimes elicit responses that will enable you to quickly eliminate potential resources.
· How familiar are you with sociopathy?
· How familiar are you with psychopathy?
· Do you distinguish sociopathy and psychopathy, or are we using these terms to mean the same thing?
· Do you distinguish antisocial personality disorder from sociopathy or psychopathy?
· How many cases have you worked involving sociopathy?
· Can I ask how you came to work with these individuals?
· What is your treatment philosophy regarding sociopathically disturbed individuals?
· I’m curious how you view sociopathy? I know that many people have different ideas about sociopaths. Can you tell me your view of what characterizes the sociopath?
· How do you distinguish, if at all, the sociopath from the narcissistic personality?
· What’s been your experience working with borderline personality disturbance?
· In your experience, what are similarities and differences between borderline, narcissistic and sociopathically disordered individuals?
· How much experience have you had working with abusive individuals?
· Can you tell me a little about the history of your interest, and experience working, with abusive personalities?
· *How effective and appropriate, in your experience, are anger management referrals for abusive personalities?
· How much interest, and experience, have you had working with victims of abuse?
· What is your view of what constitutes abuse in a relationship?
· What are your goals in working with someone who is in, or has been damaged by, an abusive relationship?
· *Are there circumstances where someone might be driven, legitimately, to abuse someone else?
· Do you mind if I ask you whose work or writings on abusive relationships and abusive personalities has most influenced your views?
· Do you mind if I ask you whose work on the subject of psychopathy (or sociopathy) has most influenced your ideas?
· *Are you familiar with Robert Hare’s work?
· *Have you successfully treated sociopaths?
· My partner, if you meet him, will tell you that I’m a sociopath”¦how will you know which of us, if either, is the sociopath?
· Are you familiar with any psychological instruments that assess for psychopathy, and if so, do you use them?
· *Under what conditions, if any, would you be hesitant to do couples therapy?
· What goals do you have, generally, when working with a borderline personality?
· What goals do you have, generally, when working with a narcissistic personality?
· What is your understanding of the central feature(s) of sociopathy?
· What is your understanding of the central feature(s) of the narcissist?
· Would you be willing to read something I’d give you if I felt it could help you understand the precidament/situation/personality I’m dealing with?
· When you believe you are dealing clinically with a sociopathic individual, what is your clinical goal?
The answers to your questions
As I’ve strongly suggested, the provider’s responses, first of all, should convey interest in, and respect for, your questions. Your first assessment, then, is less of the provider’s expertise and knowledge, than his or her attitude to your questions.
As a matter of fact, a primary purpose of your questions is to assess the attitude of the provider. In other words, if the provider isn’t temperamentally suited to appreciate the complexity of your concerns, he or she can have all the knowledge in the world and be pretty much worthless.
You’ll want honest answers. Genuine answers. Not pretenses to expertise where there isn’t any. You’ll want a provider who is willing to say, “That’s an interesting question. I might even need to think about that a bit more.”
I offer randomly some rough examples (from countless possibilities) of what might be deemed encouraging responses to some of these questions:
“To be honest, no”¦I haven’t worked with what I’d call a high volume of ________; but I do feel comfortable with my understanding of this clinical issue, and I’d like to be of help to you.”
“I consider myself to be clinically literate on this subject, but I’m happy to become even more enlightened and would welcome anything you have to share with me to get me up to speed.”
“I wouldn’t say that I have a particular interest working with _______, but I do like working with and helping those who have been victimized by ________(s).”
“I suppose I’d regard ______as a very central feature of _______. Also ______.”
“I don’t really make a distinction between antisocial personality and the sociopath? As a matter of fact, I wasn’t even aware of such a distinction? But I’m curious about that? Am I missing something?”
“I’ve worked a great deal with victims of abuse and enjoy working with this client population.”
“I’m not familiar with that issue, to be honest” (depending on the circumstances, this doesn’t necessarily have to be a disqualification).
“I can’t say that I’ve had great success working with narcissistic personalities”¦but I’ll work with anyone who voluntarily seeks my help genuinely.”
“I’m not sure if I satisfied you with my response?”
These hypothetical replies have in common a thoughtful, humble, curious quality. The confident provider will feel relaxed, undefensive, and unpressured to produce brilliant, comprehensive answers beyond his or her scope of expertise.
At the same time, you are looking for evidence of expertise that will leave you feeling comfortable that this is someone who can effectively, sensitively advocate for your interests.
Some responses, as noted, can quickly reveal a provider’s serious limitations.
For instance, the response to the question, Have you successfully treated any sociopaths?, “Yes”¦I’ve worked with many sociopaths and treated several very successfully,” is a great time-saver. You just say, “Thanks very much, I’ve really appreciated your time,” and then have a good laugh on your way out.
That’s because true sociopathy, as the LoveFraud community well knows, is a refractory
condition, unamenable to meaningful modification.
Regarding the Hare question: in cases where a provider claims to be experienced with the subject of sociopathy, I might find it dubious (although not necessarily instantly disqualifying) that he or she would have no knowledge of Robert Hare, who is such a notable figure in psychopathy research.
Similarly, the response to the question, Under what conditions would you be hesitant to do couples therapy?, “Umm”¦.I can’t really think of any?,” would suggest a potentially serious defect in the provider’s clinical knowledge and/or judgement. That’s because couples therapy is ill-advised under several circumstances, among them when serious abuse is occuring in a relationship, or when one or both partners is sociopathically oriented. (And naturally, non-genuine motivation to work on the relationship would be another contraindication.)
Further, a provider who suggests that, yes, a referral for anger management is probably the best intervention you can offer an abusive personality betrays a likely ignorance of the dynamics of the abuser, who has much more than merely an anger problem.
And it’s self-evident that a provider who can find a basis to justify abuse under any circumstance is probably confusing abuse with, perhaps, self-defense—a failure of understanding that ought to send you running for the hills.
Bear in mind there is no one right way to answer many of these questions; in many cases, there are multiple good (and good-enough) answers which also allow for differences in clinical approaches and orientations.
I offer below additional examples (also random, hypothetical) of the kinds of responses that might reflect a reassuring level of clinical expertise:
“What do I see as the central feature of sociopathy? I see the sociopath as someone who is extremely, chronically manipulative and deceptive. Someone who lacks empathy in a very gross way for the victims of his or her exploitation.”
“I see what you mean”¦.you can have a borderline personality disorder doing something, say, really vengeful that might look very sociopathic, but the motive for the aggression would be different. The borderline personality might be motivated by rage, panic, or desperation over, say, abandonment issues, whereas the sociopath? He or she may be movitated by”¦the impulse?”¦pure greed”¦or even the fun of it?”
“If I have good reason to believe I’m dealing with a sociopath, my main goal becomes evaluating his or her risk to others”¦depending, of course, on the circumstances of the referral and case.”
“If I’m working with someone with borderline personality, I’m looking to help that individual, among other things, learn how to better regulate his or her emotions, which may be very dysregulated and for that reason a source of much distress.”
“If I’m working with a narcissistic personality disorder, I’m looking, over time, to help that individual, if possible, examine his demands and expectations of others—his inflated sense of entitlement—more thoughtfully; and also examine the ways that he routinely handles, or mishandles, his disappointment in others.”
“When I’m working with abusive individuals my goal is to confront their excuses and rationalizations for their violating behaviors.”
“When I’m working with victims of abuse I may have several goals, including safety concerns; also exploring how the client finds herself in an abusive relationship, and the factors that make it difficult for her (or him) to leave that relationship.”
“How will I know which of you is the sociopath? I think in any clinical situation, you rely on a number of factors in formulating possible diagnoses, including your instincts, your experience of the individuals, the client’s history (as furnished by the client and others), other relevant, available, supporting documentation; and any adjunctive testing and evaluations that can narrow down, if necessary, a suspected diagnosis more accurately? And so there’s no guarantee that I’ll get it right, but I’m pretty confident of my chances.”
In sum, you’ll want assurances that the provider, at a minimum, can recognize the central aspects of sociopathy (or the disorder in question); he or she should appreciate the futility of pursuing treatment with the sociopath, especially in a private practice setting; but most importantly, the provider should be able to convey a good clinical grasp of, and history of work with, abusive personalities and their victims.
You will know, intuitively, whether the provider’s responses indicate an adequate level of thoughtfulness and knowledge.
And remember, your initial assessment doesn’t end when you choose to begin a working relationship with a particular provider, anymore than you cease evaluating the individual with whom you enter a personal relationship. Your evaluation should be ongoing, and your continued investment in the relationship, whether with a professional resource, or intimate partner, should be based on a continuing evaluation of him or her as worthy of your time and trust.
You can say at any point along the way, This person is not right for me. Just because I sized this person/provider up initially (with necessarily incomplete information) as worth my initial investment, doesn’t mean I can’t modify my assessment of him or her at any time, thanks to my making good use of additional, more complete information!
I hope this offers some guidance for conceptualizing an approach to the evaluation of a relatively unknown prospective provider. I am glad to continue this discussion based on feedback.
(This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
Dear Grant, I am actually working as an oncologist and I may make some comments.
I see my work with my patients as being their companion on THEIR PATH OF LIFE in a difficult passage of this path, like a path finder. I have been chosen by them to be their guide, THEY HAVE TO WALK THEMSELVES. I am skilled in assessing their needs and skills (will they be fit to do a certain path or do we have to choose another one, or do we just relieve the symptoms and leave the cancer alone without specific treatment?), but I am well aware that it is ultimately THEIR resposibility and THE PATIENTS CHOOSES HIS/HER WAY, it is not MINE, although I make suggestions about why some procedure would be my preferred way. It is like in the mountains where you hire a guide for a difficult traverse, and then perhaps you won’t need him for the rest of your journey.
That concept takes off lots of burden from me as a therapist, because I don’t have to buckle up the patient and carry him all the way by resuming all responsibility. And of course I can’t walk in HIS shoes as I have to maintain a certain distance having him on my rope, enough close to feel him and being able to hold him when he is falling, but not too far away to “getting lost” and not too close for not falling down with him.
I am not a mountain goat and afraid of height, but this metaphor helped me explain to me and my patients the concept that they are on THEIR WAY and not on MINE. I can NOT HELP THEM, I can assist them helping themselves.
I also got once a lump in my breast when I was doing my thesis on breast cancer, and it was horrible. I was in shock for some days and saw me dead immediately. Fortunately it turned out to be benign. I appreciated a quick procedure and now I am very speedy with my patients.
My sister got diagnosed with cancer two years ago, whole different story, and it was just most awful beyond words and you are right it is COMPLETELY different being on the other side of the desk. It was a living nightmare, although it also went VERY quickly, 1 week between diagnosis and operation! I had my vacation (by mere chance) and could spend all the time with my sister and accompany her through all the initial procedures. She did a fabulous job, working 100% all the way as single mom of a 3 year old and lawyer (including court appearances straight after radiotherapy) going through all this.
After that I had difficulties finding empathy for patients who were complaining about minor problems, and I sometimes got quite impatient.
Oh it is not good to be TOO CLOSE!! I also know two nurse-practicioners in Oncology and a lab-technician who got breast cancer who had a very difficult time to come back to work because THEY KNEW HOW IT FELT LIKE.
I think it is a unique and precious gift having first hand experience, but after that you have to step back and see the bigger picture and one has to try very hard not to mix one’s own experience with the experience of the other. I can’t walk in someone’s shoes, they are always uncomfortable. You just can think of what has helped in the situation and ask the other one what he thinks about it.
For me in my own “Cancer experience” it was “Speed is essential to minimize the time of uncertainty”, but besides that I could only stand by my sister and let it go, then I could mark presence so everybody knew IT IS MY SISTER AND YOU BETTER TREAT HER WELL and pray that the histology might be favorable. In hindsight it is pretty little things.
With therapeuts who got conned by P/N/S it is the same as with cancer I think: You have to step back and see the bigger picture, and not mix you with thy next.
For me it was my sister who made me look up “Psychopath” when I broke up with my “friend”. That was the one and only first step. Finding a word for the unspeakable horror. So I found you all. Without that I would have been in the Fog for much longer, and without the “P/N/S”-word I think no therapeut would have been of use, because I was so obsessed with what MY faults were and was focusing on my fixing and not what is wrong with HIM. The mere KNOWING and looking it up was tremendously therapeutic for me, better than anyhing else.
I have read previously about “psychopaths and manipulators” and I was very well aware when others got manipulated (I even joked about it with one of my colleagues who did a great job at this and I always called him “Rat”, and he liked it!). But I was never ever aware of ALL THE N/S/P who manipulated ME during all my life in my life and roam also in my pedigree.
Then time is essential, I could not speed it up, and I think no therapeut could. It was like mind archeology; I am now at my pedigree, long past my x-P, long past my early infancy, long past my dysfunctional parents.
I think also my processing of emotions is kind of random, and at first it got triggered at the oddest moments, and I needed all “Therapists” on my way they were just happening to be around when I broke out in tears at the strangest moments(secretaries, even my boss who turned later also to be a bully and narcissistic). I possibly would not have been able to have so many appointments with the therapeut
I can see now many difficult relationships in my patients and sometimes I give them a hint for “looking up the word”. That is all I can do.
My main therapeuts were you all the LF-bunch. Reading from other people was very helpful. I could come here any time and as long as I wanted, and it was and is very comforting knowing you all being here in the cyberspace, like a dense web I can come and let me fall in and feel comfi, being understood, can pamper myself (including some selfpityplayparty from time to time), relax, laugh and learn and possibly be of some use for other people. Thank you all, and have a wonderful stressfree weekend!
Steve: If you are in a plane crash, or devastated by Hurricane Katrina, no one asks you how you contributed to this happening in your life. You don’t face a society that disbelieves even that you were traumatized.
To be deliberately selected and traumatized by a fellow human being, over a period of time, while that person pretended to be your most loving, trustworthy advocate . . . that is a different type of trauma. Even rape and war are more understandable.
Yes, I examine myself to see how I might have set myself up. I don’t excuse my “participation.” But I was NOT looking for a relationship, and very reluctantly was persuaded that this guy was sincere. And in my healing, if anything, my tendency toward self-examination and self-blame has kept me dropping back into despair.
This is a different type of trauma. I believe Grant has an excellent point. And, not all S/Ps are the same — there are gradations, and different presentations. The one I was involved with was never violent, did not raise his voice, . . . but I know of three instances when, in retrospect, I know he was considering engineering my death. All the while putting on the act for me and others. I feel like I detected Scott Peterson in this relationship BEFORE my demise.
That’s not the sort of trauma a normal trauma counselor can understand.
Even rape and war are more understandable.
I am going to comment here and this will probably upset some folks but this is something I feel I have to speak to.
This kind of talk smacks of “my trauma/experience is worse than yours” or “my trauma/experience is special compared to others”.
It is simply doo doo and frankly I find it rather insulting.
No one can truly understand what I went through because they were not me and did not go through it. And them going through something similar MAY help them to understand my situation better or it MAY make them even worse because they then see their own situation in everyone else’s situation and treat everyone based on that.
Pain, suffering, hurt, and trauma are things that are subjective to each person. I and my twin might be involved in something very hurtful yet respond to, even view and experience it, in very different ways. I might experience horrific amounts of distress while my twin may have little to no issues from the same event. And to then have someone come along and try to say that one type of pain is worse or more special than another does not help things at all.
I have worked with/helped numerous people who have experienced trauma for many different reasons, many of which I have not experienced yet I was still able to help them and when I could not or they were beyond my scope I referred them to someone who could. Again no one can understand what another person has been though fully. One of the first mistakes I ever made when I was just starting out was to say “I understand what you are going through” to someone. That person quickly and rightfully corrected me that I did not and could not since I did not go through it and was not them (and I was able to help that person).
I find I agree with much of what Steve has said. However there are a few things that pop to mind. One problem is that the quality of “therapists” vary widely depending on where you are at which is why selecting one and knowing how to evaluate your therapy is so important.
And yes there are bad therapists out there but I also find that sometimes a person wants to fixate on the person who hurt them and talk about them to almost the exclusion of wanting to help themselves. They become the survivor of an psychopath and their life starts to revolve around that and becomes that and then you get to see this “us” and “them”.
I am reminded of the saying I posted before and how this seems to apply here -> “We do not see things as they are; we see them as we are.”
I’m not talking about whose pain is worse. I’m referring to the deniability of the trauma: that those who don’t get it, who don’t understand that trauma actually happened, can and often do state that nothing happened. It’s like a closed head injury: you can’t see blood, so nothing happened, right? Actually, very wrong, as new research is showing.
I find I must agree too with Blogger T on this.
Dr. Viktor Frankl in his book “Man’s Search for Meaning” which was written from the point of view of the inmates emotional states in the Nazi prison camps, he found that
(paraphrase) Pain acts like a gas, it expands to fill the entire container it is put in. A little gas expands to fill it ENTIRELY and a LOT of gas fills it entirely as well.
So one person’s paper cut may be a catstrophe and another man’s broken leg may be “nothing.” PERCEPTION OF Pain, both physical and emotional is dependent upon SEVERAL THINGS, one is genetics. They have found a “stoic” gene and a “weenie” gene and we get one fro each of our parents. If you get too “weenie” genes you respond differently than if you get two “stoic” genes, if you have one of each you are “average” Then there is the social training we get in how we are to respond to the “sick role” and how we are to act in pain (both eotional and physical). I was raised to CLOSELY HIDE ALL EMOTIONAL PAIN. Pain of any kind was to be endured without complaint. I got so tired of hearing how my mother went through the entire labor with me without waking up the girl in the bed next to her. Hell, I screamed and when I ran out of curse words I started making them up before my first son was born!
I learned at a very early age to HIDE my emotions, especially emotional distress…”you keep crying and I’ll give you something to cry about!”
Showing my emotional pain is difficult for me except in an environment I consider very safe. To talk about emotional pain or confusion outside of my closest circle of trust was darn near impossible. Even then I kept the majority of it inside. “What would the neighbors think if you told them XY or Z?” KEEP THE FAMILY SECRETS.
Our pain genetics, our social training about appropriate ways and times to show it (or to keep it secret or trivalize it) forms the web of how we feel and display our pain (emotional or physical.) I don’t think my difficulty in sharing my pain with others is a “rare” thing either. I think many people have this same difficulty. I have always been more able to empathize and support you with YOUR pain than to share my pain with you. If that makes any sense.
But whatever our pain is (paper cut or broken leg to use physical examples) it FILLS EACH OF US ENTIRELY.
So, your pain is =to my pain, your trauma and my trauma are ENTIRELY filling our souls and minds. I definitely agree with Dr Frankl on that one. I keep thinking that his pain experience had to be “worse” than mine, because it was a horrific experience, but when you are stripped down to “nothing” as he was, and as we have been, pain-pain=pain. It HURTS!
I do agree with Rune though that the BETRAYAL makes the trauma worse than an “act of God” or a plane crash or being struck by lightening that leaves you injured, but it isn’t directed at YOU personally, you are just a prey animal to them.
Oxy & T: In principle, I agree with each of you. But, to use the concussion analogy, the coach used to say, “Aw, he just got his bell rung. He’s tough. He’ll walk it off.” Now we know that a concussion may not even show in the person’s behavior, but it can lead to permanent cognitive damage if not properly treated, and even death.
To give credit to the brave and traumatized soldiers, we used to say (as a society), “Oh, he’s just a coward.” It was even a step forward when “shell shock” was acknowledged to exist. Post-Vietnam, we finally granted that soldiers were suffering from PTSD from their war experiences.
I maintain that the trauma from certain types of interaction and betrayal is not well understood, and not even acknowledged by many people.
As an example, on today’s rotating AOL articles, one item noted “10 financial mistakes to avoid,” (or words to that effect). The first item was “Falling victim to a scam,” and Kevin Bacon and his wife, Kyra Sedgwick were the illustrating photo. As if they were poster children for “stupid.” I doubt anyone would point at a war vet and say that he/she should have known better. In that sense, the trauma the S/P victim feels is less well understood, and often not even acknowledged.
I know Steve’s taken some shots on this topic, but perhaps the larger lesson here is that therapists in general might benefit from greater education, and we each have experiences that could help them understand our issues better.
Rune I think if you were to talk to very many folks who have experienced different types of trauma in their lives you will find that some will tell you that they experience folks either denying their trauma or thinking they should be over it all ready or something similar. Heck look at the whole issue of grief and loss and this jumps out as well.
I have seen some of the most awful betrayal and denial in some of the clergy sexual abuse cases I have been involved in and studied.
Yes Ox I agree that betrayal along with many other things can make it worse. But again it depends on the individual.
Alittle phrase that sums it up is
“The same sun that hardens the clay, melts the wax”
So the SAME exact experinece shared by two people will have a different effect on each of them depending on the “qualities of the substance” of each of them.
The three men who shared the plane crash with my husband (in which my husband died) all shared the same experience, all were severely burned and reacted totally differently to the experience afterwards as well as during the crash.
The “substance” within us that makes us unique individuals means that we respond in a unique way to whatever happens to us. There may be some similarities that the “human animal” goes through (like the “grief process”) but none are absolutely exactly alike. There are fairly predictable patterns at times though, and always some exceptions to the “rules.”
I do agree with Rune though that the therapists as a profession need to be better educated to what a psychopath is and their potential for damage, and the shape the victims are usually in.
I too have been told to “get over it, get on with life” concerning my husband’s death and all the other stress I endured during the last few years. I don’t think these people are so uncaring as uninformed. They truly don’t understand so I try not to be angry with them for their ignorance. Most of the time I don’t even try so much to educate them about it, because I’ve found they are not receptive to being educated about this. Their mind is made up, don’t confuse them with facts. LOL
The training though leads back to selection. If I have cancer I go to a cancer specialist rather than just a family doctor. If I have suffered abuse I want to go to someone who specializes in that. So i am not sure I agree that all therapists be educated on psychopaths.
Quite a few therapists have no interest in working with these type of indviduals and for valid reasons. I am not critical of my doctor because he does not specialize in urology or because he does not “get it” as much as a cancer specialist would.
Again therapists qualities vary greatly depending on where you live. My state has a state rep who is considering legislation so that all licensed therapists would have a drop box next to their names and specialities listed to help clients find specialists. Right now they are out there but it is almost impossible to find them.
I think that state rep is on the right track for helping folks find the specialists they are looking for. They are out there we just need better ways to find them.
I don’t even need a therapist who understands psychopaths. I feel I could benefit from a therapist who understood the damage a psychopath does to the victim. I’ve now taken in from a small percentage of the whole who understand psychopathy into a nonexistent percentage that “get” what happens to victims, particularly those who have been “groomed” and then devastated.
I doubt that specialty — victims of psychopaths — would rate a box next to a name. If so, I’d beg the money to be able to move.
Enough about sounding dramatic here. I think we’re exploring the facets of an unacknowledged issue.
Thank you, Donna, for trying to get a list together. This is why we — even when we cannot eloquently articulate our needs — are looking forward to having access to people who might already be closer to what we need.
Steve errs in thinking that we can be calm and rational and analytical in the aftermath of our trauma. Many of us don’t even have a name for what hit us — so how can we carefully pre-qualify the therapist?
Chicken or egg? What if I don’t even know I’m hungry? Let alone capable of analyzing “chicken or egg.” How can I pre-qualify a therapist’s credentials when I do not know what shape-shifted my reality? And I’m reeling!
Who was the former billionaire in Europe who walked in front of a train only several weeks ago? Or the French investor who celebrated Christmas Eve by slitting his wrists because he had lost $1 Billion to a man he trusted. And I have no notion that Bernie Madoff was also his lover. What trauma if someone takes your heart, your livelihood, your self respect, your credibility, and your sanity. And any resource that might otherwise have come from friends and family.
This is not about who has the greater pain. Oxy has a powerful voice because of her experience and her choice to survive even that, and the successions of traumas — some more visible than others. I deeply respect her open communication with us, her sharing of her triumphs and grief.
Great. What if I have cancer? If I do, I have an idea where to start looking for help. I can look it up on a chart; people will understand.
People don’t understand if I say that I realized I was living with someone who had chosen to destroy my work and all my resources, and that at the last, when I looked into his eyes, I thought I saw Ted Bundy.
What if I don’t have a name for it? The therapist is supposed to figure these things out, right? But as I understand, the training is that they deal with “the person in the room,” and they don’t try to diagnose the other people in that person’s life.
With victims of those who are psychopathic/sociopathic, the issue is radically different. The disordered person is NOT in the room. If the therapist cannot even begin to understand that the real disorder might be the “elephant in the corner,” then the therapist will never get to a place to facilitate healing. It will all be about teaching the victim to repress and, “get over it.”
In this discussion, I feel I’m pointing at the emperor who is walking around naked, and everyone is commenting on how nice he looks with his clipboard and lab coat. I do believe that “talk therapy” can be very useful. I also believe that we at Lovefraud are dealing with a spectrum of special cases that are not yet well understood by even very competent therapists who do very well dealing with other issues. And beyond that, and even more to the point, they don’t understand that their usual tools may be inappropriate for these victims.