By | September 6, 2012 115 Comments

Gain disguised as loss; healing after the storm

Few, if any, walk away from their experiences with psychopaths completely unscathed.  They may leave us bankrupt, homeless, or destitute.  They may feign victimization, as they continue to wage their assaults, further insulting what we actually endured at their hands.  Their thirst for destruction may be almost insatiable when it comes to us.

Those are just the tangible losses.  Let us give equal time to the emotional confusion and trauma.  Many of us suffer from PTSD, depression, or serious physical medical concerns, as a result.  Living through experiences with psychopaths, or those with such features, is an incredible feat.

While we tend to focus on the negative consequences, we should also take time to examine the positive ones.  It’s important!  Here’s why….

Defeated?  Don’t answer yet

Human nature and our culture tend to leave us concentrating on what we do not have.  If a psychopath enters our world and then exits, leaving us in turmoil, we think this is a bad thing.  We mourn our losses, feel bad, and wish things were different.

This is normal.  Typically, we don’t enter relationships to leave them.  However, when these folks touch  our worlds, no good can come of the connections.  As a result, as we progress through our journeys, we can come to learn that we have actually been given second chances by their departures.

The little things that are not so little 

For example, from the day the person I learned my life lessons from entered my world, I spent a lot of time sick.  I am not talking about major issues.  Mainly, I experienced lingering colds, strep throat, unexplained fevers, bronchitis, pneumonia, and the like.

It seemed that I visited my doctor frequently for minor, but legitimate, concerns that needed some level of attention. Almost a year and a half ago now, I saw my doctor for a regular check up.  She told me that she was surprised to see me.  She assumed I had left and gone elsewhere.

I must have looked at her strangely, because she backtracked, explaining that she only mentioned that because she had neither seen nor heard from me in that time.  I thought for a moment.  It was true.  I had not been sick at all.

Similarly, several years ago, my dentist advised that I should sleep with a mouth guard.  Apparently, I was grinding my teeth fairly seriously.  I recall waking many mornings with my teeth clenched shut.  I remember trying to convince myself, while half awake, to unclench my jaw, but could not.  I had to fully awaken first and consciously force myself to separate my teeth.  The result, serious headaches that sometimes last lasted for days.

Last year, even at the height of two separate court battles, the same dentist indicated to me that he could tell the grinding had stopped.  So, what does this indicate?  These individuals bring undue harm.  Their departures, even if only partial, can change us for the better.

One day at a time

I am not saying that all of the bad magically disappears one day.  We may carry many of the scars for years or even for life.  However, we can re-emerge with the help of our attitudes and awareness.  Even if they persist and seem truly unable to move on, we can work toward freeing ourselves from the burdens.    They no longer have to matter to us.  It takes time and can be very difficult, but know that it is possible.  Once, we invested in relationships that were destined to fail.  Now, we can concentrate on rebuilding ourselves successfully.  It truly is an example of gain, diguised as loss.

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My wife has some of the symtoms mentioned above. grinding of teeth at night, headaches, now costochondritis in her ribs, trouble sleeping especially after she left the bastard.
she gets it. in her head. her heart and soul? i think not so much. she told me last night that she loves me but she isnt feeling much these days. I think she is hiding from the pain she has inside after taking a giant crap on the person who stood by her for over half her life. and then crawling back to collect him after finding the grass isnt really greener on the neighbors side. i think she would like to put our marriage back together but the looming prospect of going back and emotionally unraveling this is more than she can bear at this point.
she is an empath. you can see it in her from any angle. she feels others emotions. she can read you like a book unless your an spath. or if your rare enough to be someone she has hurt. then she is confused.
she couldnt read her spath. not 35 years ago when he used her in high school like a vaginal doormat, nor recently when after watching her for ten years and inserting doubt in her marriage, planting doubt in her husbands mind with sick games etc. and again using her for a doormat. turning her family against her and using the people she loves as pawns to force her to his will.(fail)
last night i burned the copies of the sick letters he sent her trying to pry us apart. i had kept them only for legal purposes because i know after he gets out of prison he will come back and harrass us some more. she left him on her terms and you folks here know what that means.i spoke with his parole officer and he said the copies he had in his file would be with him for life, we could access them at any time, and for me to “have a nice bonfire”. i really thought it would feel different than it did though. it felt really good to watch them go up in flames one by one, but it wasnt quite the release i was looking for.
i still miss the closeness we had and how we’d touch and kiss. i know she has work to do. i just think she is afraid and is not accustomed to facing fear head on. she seems to think that therapy is a waste of time and would rather forget the whole thing. this leaves me with the prospect of a dry, dessert of a marriage devoid of the emotional closeness i once knew with her.
i wish she knew how much of her affairs good parts were really her. i think it was all her. everything good was her.
i have forgiven her. i wish she would forgive herself. but i think she will have to face some ugly before she can do that.
I wish those of you on this blog who are trying to repair a marriage after an entanglement with an spath could relay to me some kind of advise as to how i might somehow create an environment in which she had better odds of facing this. i know it is her work, and she and only she can do it. i just want to be the best man i can.



Thanks for picking me up – just when I really needed to hear this. Spath Keith molested my daughter and his adopted daughter! She’s turned 21 and he told her he sees no reason to feel bad about molesting her – he can’t change the past and she must just move on. He was her daddy for 19 years and his kids are supposed to be her brother and sister. But they too have been manipulated by him and told umpteen lies about me- lies they choose to believe.
But, I am lucky that my children and I have a 2nd chance,; that I have a better chance of rearing my 7-yr old son without Spath’s daily interferrence.


Linda, thank you for your insightful and encouraging article. The losses and grief are real, absolutely. But, my losses and grief don’t have to define who I am.

I don’t care how crazy it sounds, but I”ve learned so much more about myself as a result of my experiences than I ever could have imagined to be possible. And, I continue to learn – about myself. Thank you so much for this timely article.

Rgc, that you want to “just be the best man” that you can be is going to require surrender. And, the focus upon your wife’s pain and recovery is a “normal” human reaction – it’s much less painful to focus on someone else’s issues than our own. And, it feeds the Codependent Monkey – if my spouse recognizes how supportive and encouraging I am, they won’t be compelled to look for greener pastures. I am very, very familiar with this flawed system of beliefs.

Shell, take that second chance and run with it. We cannot control what other people choose to believe, and I had been experiencing self-induced angst about this simple fact, myself. Moving forward through each day isn’t always pleasant, but I’m moving forward. And, you are, too. If you are safe, secure, and No Contact with the spath, Life Is Good.

The truth of the matter is that, once we are cognizant of our status and what we’re dealing with, we have very clear choices. Most of those options are not simple, easy, or comfortable. Nearly all of my options have been the lesser of two evils, and thoroughly uncomfortable.

But, I’ve made the choice to end something that could never be healed by medication, therapy, surgery, or spiritual epiphany. The disease was incurable and the only option that made sense for me was to end it, regardless of my personal losses.

And, I’m almost feeling the tingle of independence – personal independence and self-reliance. It’s skeery, it sure is, but it’s also kind of exciting. At some point, I’m going to actually feel excitement and accomplishment and that will be the day that I can shout, “CHECKMATE! I WIN!”

Brightest blessings

Ox Drover


I’ve been on LF since 2007, not many days have gone by that I have not been on this blog, at least reading.. I used to cry reading the blogs, cry in empathy for the pain of the person posting. I seldom “break down and cry” after reading a post, but your post did make me just “break down and cry.” The Pain that you expressed so well must be overwhelming to you.

YOUR pain at the devastation done by the psychopath to someone else…the pain that overflows into your heart from watching someone you love hurt.

I see that kind of pain in the posts of mothers whose kids have to deal with the psychopath because of the courts giving them “equal parenting” time.

First, You, just being a man, are somewhat of a rarity here on LoveFraud, but being the husband of a woman who has had an affair with a psychopath who is trying to help her put her life back together, to help the two of you put your marriage back together…I don’t know of anyone else here on LF who shares your particular situation.

When I came to LF I had fairly well gotten over the relationship with the psychopath BF I had after my husband died, but the relationship with my psychopathic son and the other psychopaths or dysfunctional people in my life/family was very on-going at the time I found LF.

While learning about psychopaths is a good thing, for ANYONE, it is especially Good for those who have had an encounter with one that was “serious.” You sure qualify for that.

While I “see” from your posts that you are trying to “get healthy” I also hear in them that your wife just wants to “forget” the whole thing.

I was raised in a family of “forgetters” and that was our family motto it seemed, “let’s just pretend none of this happened.”

Well, there are some things you just CAN’T forget about. Can’t PRETEND THAT IT DIDN’T HAPPEN.

You said your wife “thinks that therapy is a waste of time.” I think that is not what she THINKS but what she FEELS…because she is AFRAID of the “can of worms” that might be opened up if she were to allow that to happen.

People who are “pretenders” or “forgetters” were raised in situations where there were Family “secrets” to protect, and where the person who exposed the family secrets was punished for “upsetting” the family. It goes back to childhood in most cases.

It is beyond the power of a human to heal the emotional pain of another human no matter how much we love them. Your wife as you know must heal herself. Before she CAN heal herself she must (like in AA) admit she has a problem.

One of my “favorite sayings” about The LF learning curve is that it STARTS off about T?HM, but ends up being about US. Our own need to change what made us vulnerable to them.

I strongly suggest that you get the book “Man’s search for Meaning” by Dr. Viktor Frankl, the best place to get it is off Amazon dot com used books. It will only be a couple of bucks.

I can’t remember if you have gone to therapy or not, but I STRONGLY suggest that YOU go to therapy for helping you get to the bottom of why you are where you are now. You can’t help your wife until you are strong yourself.

I imagine you burning those letters, just as I burned the murdering man who took away the little boy I loved so much…Patrick murdered the parts of himself that I loved so much when he killed Jessica. I realize that no one can keep their babies as babies, our children grow up, but I also realize that the man my baby morphed into is not anyone I know, he is a total stranger to me. My baby is gone. My baby is dead. I buried him in a little private memorial ceremony just like a mother whose baby had been murdered by a P monster. It is only that my own son was murdered by himself. (if that makes any sense)

I hope RCG that you will get some therapy so that you can deal with your wife’s pain in a way that is healthy for YOU. You deserve to be healthy and I hope that you will make that choice to take care of yourself. Maybe your wife will see that improvement in you and decide to help herself. God bless you. You are one in a million. One in a BILLION.


thanks oxy.
i have been to therapy and will continue.


I agree with rgc and his pain. But, maybe she deals with things differently than you. I could understand if she was beaten and raped and lived with the guy. But I don’t think that is the case. She sounds like a strong woman who wants to get on with life and not use this valueble time stressing about the past. I went through this, and don’t want my life centered around my past and use my life trying to figure it out! I am much better with my husband now if we just love each other, physically or just a touch knowing we are there for each other. I once felt so drained and it’s clearing up for us now, cause we work on us. Sorry for you rgc, give her time.


it feels like she is afraid of me. like a kiss is a trigger that reminds her of the past. she’s in it for a minute, then she ‘s not. i’m not judging her outwardly. if she’s in it, i recognize her. when she’s not, i dont know who she is. also she talks about working on us, but doesnt seem interested in actually doing it.



Rgc, there’s a lot of deflection and avoidance going on, it seems. Perhaps, she has no interest in repairing the marriage, at all. How long has it been since this she took up with the spath, and how long has it been since you’ve been back together?

Have you considered a temporary physical separation, at all? The reason that I ask is that it doesn’t sound as if there is true communication taking place. It might be helpful for you, specifically, to have time and space to clear your head and place the responsibility of her healing in her own hands.

Yes, it hurts to see someone that we love in pain, but we can’t take that pain away for them, nor can we feel that pain for them. You’re shouldering the responsibility for her healing, and she’s allowing you to do it. This is what I’m reading from your posts.

Brightest blessings


I was saddened to hear of the “funeral pyre,” Rgc, as well – but, it is one heck of a cathartic decision. Was your wife involved in the process, as well?

I’ve been burning things for the past couple of days – literally. Paintings, hats, clothing, anything that has the exspath’s handwriting on it………and, it’s very, very liberating to me.

Ox Drover

RCG, her not being able to face the past, I think is her not being able to actually work on the marriage relationship in the future.

My own family way of dealing with things (dysfunctional) was to pretend they didn’t happen.

For example, let’s say I got mad at you and burned down your house. Then I said, “I’m sorry RCG, I was mad/sad (or whatever) when I burned down the house but lets be married again”

Then I expected to move back into your new house and never again refer to the past arson, or why I did it, or that it might happen again.

Your wife’s affair is similar I think to burning down your “house” and now she isn’t willing to work to put up bricks and boards to build a new one, just expects you to live in the rubble of the old one with her.

I’m not sure what her “reason” is for not going to therapy, or why she doesn’t want you to touch her, but whatever it is, it isn’t a healthy relationship with you.

You (and she) can’t continue to live in that burned out rubble of a marriage and build a new marriage until the rubble is cleared out. I hope that she will help herself and help you, but at some point you have got to decide if you want to stay in that burned out rubble or to move on into something that is more healthy.

It is a shame that she doesn’t seem to appreciate the chance she has to rebuild a marriage, but just loving someone on our part, doesn’t mean that they can receive the love in a healthy manner. God bless. RCG. ((hugs)))


What if there is no way to stop them from continuing their attacks. For over 7 years, people have been saying “This too shall pass.” and when I tell them there is no truth to that statement until they have reason to stop… and they won’t stop until I am dead, I am perceived as defeatist.

When someone hires a sociopath lawyer, expect unrelenting injustice and manipulation and harassment and terror. And no one helps.

Help me please. My story is here… or GOOGLE: Terroristic Divorce


Teranceh, I am going to hazard a guess that you are divorcing from an attorney?

You have my deepest sympathies. I have no words of wisdom or support that would suffice. If it were me, I’d leave the country if I could afford to and go underground. I would disappear myself.

Most sincere blessings

Ox Drover

Dear Teranceh,

You have my deepest sympathy my friend. In dealing with a psychopath, it is extremely difficult and if they are an attorney and if they also have kids with you….you are screwed. I wish I could tell you that you will be “free” of this harassment even one day before you die of old age, I can’t tell you that.

The only thing, and I mean the ONLY thing that you can do is to CHANGE WHAT YOU CAN…your attitude about what they are doing to you.

YOu can’t change what they are doing, only the way you THINK about what they do.

This may sound crazy, Teranceh, but I’ll give you an example of how I did it.

My home is built on land that is “family” land, land I have invested many hundreds of thousands of dollars and countless hours lof hard labor in building and improving the entire piece of property not just my home…my son, who is a Psychopath with a BIG P, is in prison, and since I am an only child of my egg donor, and the way the estate is set up, IF AND ONLY IF I DIE BEFORE SHE DOES, DOES HE GET A THING…

Now I am very ATTACHED to my home, and to the farm, and to everything about it….but it eventually became apparent in the spring of 2007 that if I stayed in my home I was going to be murdered, and though my home here was the most important thing to me in the world, I CUT THE UMBILICAL CORD OF EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT TO MY HOME AND I GOT THE HECK OUT OF DODGE. I quit caring about my home. My life was more important and I got out while I could. Eventually the person sent to kill me by my son (my son is still in prison for another murder) was arrested and I returned to my home.

But…I have changed the way I regard my home. I no longer am ATTACHED to it emotionally. It is simply a house, a roof over my head. A nice one I will admit and one I enjoy but I am also quite willing to leave it in a heart beat and NOT LOOK BACK.

I can’t change the fact that my son probably WILL get out in a few years and I will have to “head for the hills” again, either that or stand and fight because HE WILL COME AFTER ME IF HE GETS OUT. But I have realized that nothing he does to me, or deprives me of is going to hurt me if I don’t let it hurt me.

The Bible says if someone wants your coat, give them your cloak as well, or if they require you to go a mile, go two…and I think what that means is that whatever they try to take away from you…LET IT GO. QUIT WORRYING ABOUT IT…

Whatever the psychopathic lawyer is trying to take from you, quit letting it hurt you. CHANGE YOUR ATTITUDE ABOUT IT, quit giving a flying rat’s behind. ACCEPT the things you cannot change, and pray for the wisdom to know what you can change and what you can’t. (to paraphrase the AA prayer)

Glad you have found LoveFraud, and again, welcome and God bless.


it started with pity letters from prison about seven years ago. i said no to that. tried to get her to ignore him. i knew he was a loser and child molester. then in april 2009 he got out and as soon as he was off the ankle bracelet, he showed up at our house on halloween of 2009( fitting) he of course is not supposed to be anywhere near kids. upon learning that he dropped by and walked in while my 4 teenage kids were home without us, i showed them his profile on the state sex offender site. my wife was pissed. she said i had no right to show them that because he was innocent. she claims that is what triggered it to start as she felt so much pity for him. she also stated that she felt “your not my dad” i think she was already in the bag though. so she was with him as i looked the other way from about november 2009 till i found out in january 2011. she claims she was trying to break away in late 2010 but in her words she “just couldnt get there”.
from early to mid 2011 i watched her run to him weekly till i had a no contact placed upon him. then in late july she went to his parole officer and had the no contact lifted and promptly went to him for sex again.she finally confessed in august. i had kicked her out in june 2011 but i let her beg her way back in and to be quite honest i dont know if she told me expecting to be kicked out again. (trying to make it my fault??) i know from his letters he was forcing her to tell me. there were a lot of things said about them and their “stuff” together. details i shouldnt have seen but were probably put there with the intent of destroying anything that might be left of us. aw crap details right down to a list of things “She said” i wasn’t doing for her.
i have suggested calmly that we try a temporary separation just to allow our heads to clear(weeks or months) but she gets really upset over it and wants nothing to do with it. we do get along much better since i have gotten into my own healing and have calmed down but it seems to me that the distance keeps stretching out.
she claims that she told him as she was trying to pull free that she wanted to have with her husband what she had with him. and that she really didnt love him as he so forcefully tried to convince her but that it was only lust on her part. so now i’m wondering, where is the lust you once shared with me?
i really am feeling the “not receiving my love and attention” thing here. its like she is afraid of feeling. i know i do it for her. heck thats something that is just about knowing how and being present. but if she starts getting passionate it is as if she gets going and then something frightens her into retreating.
we have been doing a ton of fun stuff together this summer. last weekend we went to the renniasance festival in mn. and we dress up for it. she was noticing that i was getting a lot of attention from other women, (so she told me) once i noticed this it kind of creeped me out. i think it made me feel kind of self conscious.
is she so ashamed of this that she cant have any passion anymore?



so in sept.2011 she went to the parole dept and had the nc re applied and after some more harrassment and at her having supplied evidence that he’d been breaking it, they threw hin in for 20 months. so she has been nc for about 7 months. funny thing. it feels to me like weve gotten further apart during this time.



problem is i think, she doesnt deal at all. i think she is afraid. afraid of the can of worms she will find, afraid of really seeing how bad she screwed up. afraid of feeling passion again. maybe she feels she has to suppress her passion so as to never let this happen again. i know in the big picture this is foolish. she will have to figure it out or im not staying. in the end its gonna be tough crap baby. i am worth more than an empty symbolic marriage to someone who wont take responsibility for their actions. I am a damn good man even with my faults. i am a good father, an incredible provider, and yes a passionate and totally accessible lover who will do anything (within reason) that my mate needs.
she doesnt just heal differently… she just plain does not heal.



Rgc, who cares if she gets upset about a physical separation? This isn’t about HER, it’s about you and your needs. The tip-toe-around-the-issues is a wedge that is firmly driven between any possibiolity of true reconciliation.

The “lust” in any marriage is an impossibility to maintain. The initial lust is (IMHO) replaced with a comfortable passion that glows rather than burns and consumes. She wants with you what she “had” with the spath because it was fantasy. She will never, ever, EVER have the same thing with you – THANK GOD – because you’re not pretending to be something where the maggot was.

Having “fun” together isn’t necessarily a relationship (again, IMHO). I had “fun” with the exspath – in fact, I often told him that the best times of my life were spent with him. “Fun” isn’t the same thing as communication, healthy physical relations, and trust.

Rgc, maybe the feeling that you’re getting further apart since you began your focus upon your own healing is an indication of something extraordinarily significant for you. It very well may be that you don’t “need” her so much as you used to, and you’re recognizing that you are a valuable human being with, or without, her.

When is the spath maggot due to be released? I dunno, Rgc, but I’d bet that she’s still clinging to the fantasy that he’s going to change and remains with you as a matter of convenience. If it were me, I’d be working like a fiend to sort out my experiences if I truly wanted to save my marriage. I’d be engaging in deep, strong dialogue with my counselor and partner.

Then, again…..I could be just a cynical old bat that doesn’t cut anyone any slack, anymore! LOL

Brightest blessings


I remember the comfy passion! she’d come to me with that “look ” in her eyes. and she would just put herself in my hands and we’d take hours.

yeah. i dont want what she had with that little boy either. i dont want controll of her. be nice if she had control of herself though!

and the maggot gets out in sept of next year. i know he will be back. though he supposedly told the parole officer that he found a way to stay in for the rest of his sentence. ???? wtf??


truthy. clinging to fantasy? yup i worry there too. she wrote a letter trying to scold him as it were after they threw him back in. didnt send it though. showed me. yup there at the end was the phrase i dreaded. ” now be good and follow your rules!” she chewed his ass and then gave him just what he would look for.

I’ll see if i can copy/paste a letter i wrote for her but diddnt show her that reflects how she might feel after discovering ALL the truth and REALLY having a grip.

hang on a sec.


You lied about your past
About your relationships
You Lied about your guilt
About how you treated others
You lied about what you did to little girls
About how you violated them with your coveting
You tried to hide how you covet what you can’t have
Your own daughters can’t trust a man because every time a good man approaches them,they still feel you.
You gained my trust with lies
You distorted the meaning of the word friendship with lies
You caused me to worry about you with lies
You made me feel sorry for you and then used my pity for you against me to get around my faith in my marriage
You managed to convince me that you couldn’t have a woman because of all the unfairness life had thrown at you when actually you earned your mess
You tried to convince me that you liked everything I did
That you were just like me
That the entire span of time we had known of each other’s existence counted as a friendship
Where were you for the past 20 years?
Violating other lives that’s where
You lied about looking for me
You could have gone into any bar in ——— or ——- and found out where I was because I have many friends
You took every bit of information I gave you in trust and used it to convince me that my husband didn’t care
That he could not love me if he would touch another
You tried to make me forget that he was honest about it
That he could not touch me again without being truthful first
He has something you will never possess
And that is Honor
You told me lies about how much you care
You lied about being unselfish
You lied about being faithful to women before me
You led me to believe that you were a great person
Where are the flocks of friends that you should have?
I don’t see them anywhere
You made me believe in you with your lies and your fakeness
You pretended to be like my husband
You tried to convince me that you had the same career
You said you shared the same hobby at one time
You just added a few small things to him that I told you were important to me and pretended to be a man I would want.
You even tried to look like him
You said you would build me a house
But you have never built anything but lies
You pretended to be all lost without me
That you would die without me
But you never lost even a pound from worry
My husband lost 50 pounds
You lied to me about my responsibility in this affair and tried to hold me hostage to it
You tried to make me believe it was all my fault
And that you were the victim
That I started it
That it was destiny
You lied to my family
You turned them against me
Used them as tools to try to force me to submit to your will
You used my own dying mother against me in the end
You pretended to respect me but it was all about you
You did the same to every other woman you have coveted
We girls of your past are not the same, so you are surely a fake
You have made me so sick of words with your lies that I don’t want to hear any more words
My husband is right about you
But he didn’t convince me
Cause I wouldn’t listen to him
I figured it out myself
You see, I remember things too
And all his badgering pushed me away
Only when he could shut up for a few days at a time could I really think about it
Then I began to piece it all together
Yes! I can think for myself
I am strong
If I want, I can leave my husband at any time
He respects me, so he will let me go if I choose
And he will support me and help me keep my children and grandchildren near to me
No matter what
He knows and appreciates me and accepts me for who I am
He is my friend
You tried to change me
And in a way you did
I will never be vulnerable again to a fake like you ever again


She has also indicated to me several things that trouble me.

she feels like she does not deserve me.

she has become extremely repulsed by any thoughts of enjoying anything with him. especially intimacy.


Hi rgc,

You deserve to be loved whole heartedly. Although your wife is, as you say, a good person who had been swayed by a P, it seems as though you are hanging on by a mere thread, to something that is hopeless, if she is not willing to invest in the two of you, as a unit. You project such beautiful, human, loving, compassionate qualities and personal traits. Love yourself enough to do for YOU, too. Much love ~ Shane

Ox Drover



a letter i wrote for her but didn’t show her that reflects how she might feel after discovering ALL the truth and REALLY having a grip.

A LETTER THAT YOU WROTE. Reading her mind.

I’m a bit along with what shane said above about you trying to fix your marriage and fix this woman who has (A) been injured in some way, needy in some nor she would not have had the affair in the first place (B) who is now injured more deeply by having had this affair and (c) [what I am “hearing” in your posts] is that she is not much interested in therapy (“a waste of time”) and not much interested in a physical relationship with you etc.

So, boiling down what you have is that YOU are in a loveless, passionless marriage with a woman who cheated on you and came back, but apparently just wants to live in the same house with you and YOU ARE HURTING DEEPLY BECAUSE YOU WANT TO FIX THE MARRIAGE AND SHE DOESN’T WANT TO COOPERATE IN DOING THAT.

RCG, I think the problem, YOUR PROBLEM, is that YOU need to get into therapy to see if there is any hope in this marriage, or just how long you are going to put up with living in a loveless marriage (loveless on her side)

God bless and give you strength and wisdom is my prayer.

kim frederick

Oxy, I agree. Why are you writing HER letter, RCG? Why are YOU expressing HER thoughts and feelings? As if You even COULD know them, why would you assume you had a RIGHT to express them?
Why don’t you write your own letter. First to spath and then to your wife….you never have to show either of them what you’ve written, just do it as an excersice in getting in touch with YOURSELF< YOUR HURT YOURS> NOT HERS>
I think you are doing a lot of assuming….maybe because your wife has blocked you from knowing what is going on with her. She has that right. But, it also indicates that she is not willing to share any emotional intimacy with you, at this time.
You have every right to protect your heart from anymore hurt, and frustration. This is about what’s best for you. If you feel that what is best for you is to seperate, then do it.
It doesn’t matter what she wants. I think she wants to manipulate you, keep you off balance, and hungry….she wants you to SEEK her. This keeps her in control.
As one of our readers would say, “psssssssssstttt.” With a wave of the hand.


i know i just wasted a bunch of my time with that huh? wrote it about 6 months ago. i’m glad you all have the sand to get all over me about it. might be what i need, or part of it.

thanks all!



this is kinda what i want in a relationship. i thought we had this.

In a long term relationship
you have the inalienable right
. . .

1. To Be Judged And Treated According
To Your Own Words And Actions, not
on the words and actions of the other douchebags,
bitches or dorks your partner
may have dated in the past.

Just because your boyfriend’s ex girlfriend
cheated on him with the entire
college football team doesn’t mean your
boyfriend can keep you locked in
the closet every Sunday and
prevent you from watching ESPN 2.

2. To Be Told The Absolute Truth
About The Important Things (And To
Be Lied To About The Stupid Stuff.)

society is predicated on not
ALWAYS saying exactly
what’s on our mind.

In a relationship you have
a right to be told the absolute truth
about . . .

Fidelity and cheating.
Sexual fantasies.
The state of your finances.
Whether your partner wants kids.
What really happened to the dog.
Whether your partner is happy.
What your partner wants for
the future.
Whether your partner loves you
or not.
If your partner and that guy
with the jutting chin are actually
“Just friends” or not.
And other earth-quaking,
relationship shattering

You have the right to be LIED
to about stupid stuff like . . .

“What are you thinking about RIGHT
NOW?” (You don’t always want
to know.)

“Do I look fat in this?” (Seriously,
people ask that?)

And other minor pieces of

You also have the right to a partner
who understands the actual
difference between minor
BS and important stuff.

3. To HaveYour Partner Be In Your
Corner And
Take Your Side In A Fight,
Even If They Think You’re
Totally Wrong.

If you come home crying about
how your boss is a raving asshole,
your partner should just agree. “Yup, he’s
an asshole.” No ifs, ands or buts.

4. To Forgiveness And
To Be Accepted For The Flawed
Human Being You Are.

In a long term relationship
you’re going to do things
to piss your partner off
(and they’re going to do
things to make you pull
your hair out and plot their

Nobody is perfect Humans are flawed.
We all do stupid

You have a right to be forgiven by
your partner as quickly
and as completely as possible (or
not at all.)

If there’s something you’ve
done that your partner simply
can not and will not ever
forgive you for no matter
what you do or how hard they
try, you have the right to be told that
so you can make a tough but
Necessary decision.

5. To A Partner Who Encourages
You To Be The Best You Can Be,
Who Accepts That You’ll Evolve
Over The Years, Who Doesn’t Try To Change
Who You Are.

We are all moths becoming butterflies
becoming dragons. You have a right
to a partner who loves the “Good”
about you, accepts the “Bad” and
celebrates the you they haven’t
met yet.

6. To Regular, Eager
Nonjudgemental And Enthusiastic Sex.

You have the right to a partner who
lusts after you, lets you know you’re sexy,
is interested in your pleasure, accepts
even your weirdest kinks and fantasies
and at least occasionally worships
your body and makes you feel
like the hottest man or woman
on the planet.

7. To Independence, Friendship And Privacy

You have the right to your own private
space, your own private thoughts, your
own private things, your own private

You have the right to pursue your
passions, to be friends with whoever
you damn well want and to
have parts of your life that have
absolutely nothing to do with
your partner.

You are independent planets
who choose to be in orbit. A partner
who tries to control you should
be thrown into the sun.

8. To Be One Of Your Partner’s Top 3 Priorities At
Any Given Time

You have a right to a partner who drops everything
for you in a crisis, who thinks about you when
you’re not around, who celebrates you, encourages
you and does random stuff for you at least
sometimes without you even asking for it.

Yes, other stuff (and other people) are going
to take priority sometimes. (It’s life.)
That’s totally cool. But you should always
be in the top 3.

9. To A Partner Who Sticks By You On
The Bad Days, Months And Years And
Helps You Get Back To The Good

There are days you’ll wake up miserable.
There are weeks life kicks you in the balls.
There are years the whole damn world feels
like it’s going to fall apart.

You have a right to a partner who lets
you cry on their shoulder. Who tells
you it’s going to be OK even when it’s not
and who realized one bad day (or one
bad fight) doesn’t mean your
relationship is over.

10. You Have The Right To Be With Someone
Who Loves You.

You have the right to be with someone who
celebrates you and never puts you down.

You have the right to be with someone who
can deliver criticism with a kiss instead
of a slap.

You have a right to feel safe in his arms
and adored in her embrace.

Ox Drover

RCG, sounds like she isn’t given you any of those things.

I can’t remember who said this, so if anyone else remembers please let me know.


You obviously love your wife very much, but SHE is in CONTROL of your relationship. She calls the shots and you are begging for more from her and she is unwilling or unable to give it to you at this time.

Will she EVER be willing to have a real and honest and loving and caring relationship with you?

I can’t answer that question, only she can…but at some point you have a limited number of choices.

1. Stay with her like things are
2. Decide staying with her like things are is not going to work for you—and get out.

Maybe by magic she is going to change….but I doubt it.

I spent 20+ years believing in MAGIC for my son….it didn’t work. He is still what he is.

I spent 8 months believing that a cheating, lying drunk who had cheated on his wife for 32 years was going to be faithful to me and love me and we could finish growing old together…and I wouldn’t have to be alone. That didn’t work either.

I spent 60 years thinking my mother loved me, only to find out that she is nothing but my egg donor, not a “mother” at all. I am just a role player in her drama rama of “let’s pretend we are a nice normal family” I quit the play and refuse to live by that script.

Your wife had this affair with this man because there was something lacking in your relationship. There was something she wanted that he offered. (or she thought he did at the time) She found out that he wasn’t what she thought he was, but she is apparently not grateful that you stood behind her and didn’t toss her arse to the curb….YOU still want a relationship with her, but from what I gather from what you say…she doesn’t, OR SHE WOULDN’T TREAT YOU LIKE THAT.

WHEN PEOPLE SHOW YOU WHAT THEY ARE, BELIEVE THEM! She is showing you that the relationship with you, a REAL relationship, is not important to her. THAT’S MY OPINION….TAKE IT FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH.

I’ve been on LF since 2007 and I’ve seen lots of people come and go, people who went back to people who beat them, cheated on them, etc. and then got out eventually, and others who apparently never got out….or ones that went on to relationships with another psychopath after the first one because they didn’t do PHASE TWO…OF THE HEALING PROCESS, WHICH IS WORKING ON OURSELVES. Good luck RCG and God bless.


useless 2010
you sound peculularly like my wife. yes it would be nice if we could work on “us” yeah, id be all over that. in fact you’d probably have to restrain me a little as i would be all too eager. but she “says” she wants to work on us and then does nothing, says nothing, offers nothing. indeed work on us involves us, thats supposed to be both of us. maybe i, in the past, by not being a particularly good listener, or by giving critisizm to harshly, or by somehow making her feel judged, made her emotionally inaccessible or something. but, thats tuff crap now. i have changed so much of myself and i’m going to keep doing it for ME.its time for her to grow up and show herself how strong she is and DEAL with what she has allowed to happen. the overlying thing here is that SHE got into this. i think it is SHE who needs to either go through the nescessary therapy to discover her self and thus truly heal and make HERSELF available to a mutually nurturing healthy relationship or quit cruelly wasting my time.
this abberation of humanity is going to be out in one year and i will be damned if i deserve to watch as she falls for his fake crap like i had to so many times before. she at least owes me that much. hell for all i know, she had him put away knowing she couldnt stop herself. thats the easy way out. what these good people here know is how to RECOVER. i dont know if your husband had to watch you fail over and over again, or hear you tell your spath boy how much you love him, or that one day by christ even in death you would be with him or that his better than average manhood diddnt stack up to mr sun shining out his ass. but I DID! time for her to grow up. i respect your actions in that i guess they work for you two.



rgc112063, you said: “yes, it would be nice if we could work on “us” yeah, id be all over that. in fact you’d probably have to restrain me a little as i would be all too eager. but she “says” she wants to work on us and then does nothing, says nothing, offers nothing. indeed work on us involves us, thats supposed to be both of us.” This statement stood out for me……Don’t know how long you and your wife have been going back and forth with this, however if SHE doesn’t have the inclination to work on your marriage, well then……my advice to you is SET A “TIME” BOUNDARY for yourself! Determine how much more time you may be willing to invest in this relationship with your “wife”. Sounds to me you are also the “co-dependent” here, as well as the victimized…as well. Have YOU not suffered as a result of your wife’s affair? I think you have. Ask yourself HOW MUCH LONGER?????????? Best wishes to you in your recovering, as well as your wife’s. BUT……..if she doesn’t want to work it out with you, that IS HER CHOICE. Remember, RGC112063, NEVER SURRENDER MORE THAN YOU ARE WILLING TO LOSE! Best wishes to you!


This is from an old Michael Bolton song, titled: “When I’m Back on My Feet Again” Gonna break these chains around me
Gonna learn to fly again
May be hard, may be hard
But I’ll do it
When I’m back on my feet again

Soon these tears will all be dryin’
Soon these eyes will see the sun
Might take time, might take time
But I’ll see it
When I’m back on my feet again When I’m back on my feet again
I’ll walk proud down this street again
And they’ll all look at me again
And they’ll see that I’m strong

Gonna hear the children laughing
Gonna hear the voices sing
Won’t be long, won’t be long
Till I hear them
When I’m back on my feet again Gonna feel the sweet light of heaven
Shining down it’s light on me
One sweet day, one sweet day
I will feel it
When I’m back on my feet again And I’m not gonna crawl again
I will learn to stand tall again
No I’m not gonna fall again
Cos I’ll learn to be strong AGAIN!!!! 🙂 YES! 🙂


Rgc, dear heart…..I’m reading all of this and I’m seeing someone who is desperately gripping onto something that may not have been as healthy and loving as you believed it was, even before the spath.

That you wrote a letter on her behalf to outline the spath’s sins is what you should be doing for yourself with your wife. Yes, people fall into complacency and stop “hearing” what their partner is saying, quite often. Yes, people also fall into a habit of of delivering harsh criticism over time – sometimes, we get into a pattern where WE are not heard, and the only way to get someone’s attention is to become harsh with them. Having said that, DON’T YOU DARE shoulder the blame for your wife’s choices!! And, yes – my caps should be interpreted as online shouting. Don’t you DARE allow yourself to start playing that game, again.

This is now about you, Rgc. This is now about how you will choose to live the rest of your life. You have crystal clear choices before you – none of them may be comfortable to you, and I completely (REALLY) understand this. So, now it comes down to it: what are you going to do for RGC?!?! What are your options, and what are the most reasonalbe, sound, and pragmatic ones available? Now, read this clearly: your options may “feel” uncomfortable, painful, or damning, but they remain options, nevertheless. Not all choices are going to be easy and painless.

Get angry, Rgc. Get outraged. Get proactive where YOU are concerned. Do you really believe that you deserve to sit, wait, and grind your teeth until next September when the maggot is released? Do you really believe that you deserve to WONDER, day after day, whether or not your wife is simply remaining with what is “familiar” because she made a gross error in her personal judgement? Doesn’t Rgc deserve to live a happy, contented life? Dammit, Rgc, what about YOU!?

Okie dokie…..rant over

Brightest and most sincere blessings


Truthspeak, all I can say to your post above is….RIGHT ON, RIGHT ON, RIGHT ON!!!!!!!! To RGC……..DO NOT PERMIT……let me repeat that for clarity, DO….. NOT….. PERMIT…..yourself to be a victim of that spath, as well……………………………………Best to you, RGC! 🙂


I agree with truthspeaks.. RUN FOREST RUN…you deserve to be happy..its really a sad thing when u love and care for someone.they.wont give it back… sounds like she is biding time…U deserve to be cherrished just as much as u were willing to give sometimes even more.. grinding teeth I get that and it is yourself ….make it about u.


Reading your story, I can only compare to past relationships, and ask myself what I would do if I were you. I lived with a man for 3 years who refused to cut his psychotic ex out of his life completely. He had all these reasons and justifications for it – they have mutual friends, are from the same hometown, etc. She still carried a flame for him and was completely disrespectful of our relationship. Eventually, she broke into his house and brandished a loaded gun at him. She ended up with a felony on her record but didn’t have to do any prison time. And he STILL had some sort of weak social connection to her. She would show up at events in their hometown drunk and he would drive her home. In the beginning, I set a firm boundary. But once I got pretty entangled in the relationship with him and was living with him, I gave my power away. I lost my bargaining chip which was the ability to set a limit and walk away if he couldn’t respect it. I kept making excuses and making excuses……..this morphed into other types of boundary violations (my boundaries) and eventually with him cheating on me with someone else. That’s what it took for me to leave.

I agree with the advice of others. Pull back your energy and focus on yourself. Perhaps if she realizes she might be losing you, she will step it up and start working on herself, if she really values the marriage. But this only works if you ultimately love yourself enough that you are willing to walk away from her. I was unable to do that all those years ago. I stayed until there was no other choice but to leave, and it devastated me. You can take back your power before you get hurt any further. Personally, I don’t think the marriage is unsaveable at all. I think you are both contributing to the problem. You are contributing by being “too nice” and failing to set boundaries. This over-the-top niceness and tolerance from you is probably very unattractive to her, and she runs to the bad boy, who is the polar opposite. Be a man and stand up to her. Put your needs first and let her know you are going to take care of yourself. When you start doing that, the dynamic of your relationship will change and THEN you will know if she’s a keeper or not. But as long as you are overfunctioning for both of you, she won’t do her part. My guess is that once you’ve pulled back you will start to get pretty angry and may not want her back, even if she wants to come back.


Last night before bed, as i was walking up the stairs, she said her usual “I love you” i normally reply back. but i just was tired or something and i didnt. i do love her but i just didnt say it. five minutes later she is in bed talking her ass off. ive been told by guys who are players that women dont like guys who are too nice. well i dont want to be a player here, and i dont know if my momentary lack of reciprocity triggered her to open up a little, but she did. a little. i guess if i become more true to myself and love myself more it would be percieved as a little distance huh? and i can still be ME. just a little more ME. maybe that fits. maybe i have become her “piss boy” huh? i do have a hobby which was part of her spaths blame crap. and it is a really good outlet for my stress. hmmm. time to spend a little Me time again.


one of these guys told me i need to “take my balls back out of her purse”


Rgc, is the “i love you” response a rote thing? I mean, is it said as “an appropriate response,” or is it said with true intent of meaning? The reason that I ask is that I never failed to tell the exspath that I loved him – at any time. Over the course of a decade, that sentiment became a meaningless set of words to the exspath – well, they had always been meaningless to him, but his disdain became uneniable.

It’s not so much that you want to take your “balls back” out of her purse, but it may be that this is a clear indication that your focus on her, her healing, her damages, her anything, is misplaced and needs to be places firmly, squarely, and 100% upon Rgc.

Brightest blessings


Marriage is a serious commitment. I think it’s very noble that you want to work on yours in spite of an egregious affair. And though it’s easy to point your finger at your wife or at the spath (spaths ruin many lives), all you can change is yourself in this situation. Yes, you can take your balls out of your purse and put them back where they belong – on you. Focus on yourself – not to see what kind of reaction you get out of her, but because it’s what you need to do. And if this were my situation, there would be a very strict boundary set: “If there is any contact whatsoever with the spath, whether it be by phone, email, or otherwise, I’m outta here.” I would not sit around and “be patient” waiting for wife to “get over” this guy. She needs to be able to make a choice to save her marriage. Then do what you need to do in order to take care of yourself, which will inevitably involve pulling back a little. During that time, you can think about what you really want in a relationship, what you will tolerate, and what you won’t tolerate. Think about what your bottom line is – where you need to draw your boundaries. Then you must be willing to walk if she cannot respect them. I know couples who have separated and even divorced, but eventually reunited as a healthier and more functional couple. Pulling away and focusing on yourself is a healthy thing for your marriage. You MUST love yourself first before you can extend it in a healthy way to someone else.




RGC. Both of my husbands cheated on me. I took both of them back and did my best to “forgive” and move forward. Neither one of them however, wanted to deal with the “why” behind the infidelity. They wanted me to just “forget” it.

Here is my take on all of the above. People that lie, cheat and manipulate have something wrong with their internal moral compass. Just because they no longer lie, cheat and manipulate doesnt mean they are “well.”Many have serious emotional problems that will not be fixed in this life.

No one can advise someone what the final choice should be in a relationship escpecially one with children. My experience with two men over 30 years is that I should have packed my bag the night I found out about their affairs and filed for divorce the next day.

People dont change. Ok, maybe sometimes. I guess I thought I was the “lucky one”, but both men ended up being pieces of human disasters. They put me thru a combined 30 years of hell, and I will never understand why I stayed so long. I was manipulated multiple times in believing that “change “can happen. Many times THERAPISTS told me this. BEWARE of therapy – some of these folks are very disorderd!

For me, nothing really “changed” after many attempts at therapy and conversation. I am done with drama – no relationship on the planet Earth is worth it. I would rather spend my time growing and learning how I can improve myself and the world I live in then put up with lies and deceit from another human being ever again.

Good luck RGC – I will pray for guidance and peace for you tonight.


Rgc, I know it’s a hard pill to swallow, but this whole business is quite a pickle for anyone to manage. Being co-dependent, myself, I completely understand the desperate desire to “fix” something that is broken beyond repair. I’ve done it, before, in my first abusive marriage. This second one, the exspath was done the instant I discovered what he truly was.

No…… isn’t easy, simple, painless, delightful, or anything immediately “positive” to call a spade what it is. It’s dammed painful and uncomfortable. In your situation, your wife, who entered into a legal, binding contract of marriage with you, is demonstrating a distinct lack of interest in her own accountability for her own actions – yeah, the spath “talked her into it,” but something was broken BEFORE the spath even entered the picture. HE was just a catalyst and SHE acted upon an urge that many, many people do. But, what she did not do was take responsibility FOR her choices and address the grievous injuries that YOU have suffered, as well.

If you read the posts of other individuals on this site who were coerced by a spath to have an affair, there is a gulf of difference in THEIR language and that of your wife’s. These people experienced spath entanglements, yes they did. But, they also speak openly and truthfully about HOW they became entangled and HOW they are working to heal themselves and their marriages. Some of these people weren’t able to save their marriages, and they acknowledge this. It takes a while, but they get there in their own good time.

So, here’s what I’m reading from your posts, alone, Rgc. I only have your version of events, but (IMHO) I don’t sense any attempts to blow things out of proportion or any serious cries of self-pity. What I’m reading is that someone who is in a legal, binding contract of marriage chose to have a wild-assed fling with a very bad person and, once they discovered that the very bad person was going to go to prison, they returned to someone that they knew would receive them back and accept their actions, choices, and behaviors because they were co-dependent. I’m not suggesting that the wife knew this on a conscious level, but her experiences with you have shown her over, and over, and over that Rgc is very “tolerant,” and she ran back to safety and security without a second thought because she KNEW that she COULD.

It is very possible that I am dead wrong in how I’m reading your situation, Rgc, and I hope that I AM. But, my Life’s Experiences are telling me that one person will do anything, tolerate anything, and accept anything that their partner does and blame themselves for their partner’s actions long, long BEFORE they hold the person accountable. My Life’s Experiences are telling me that your wife returned to you ONLY AFTER the spath was heading off to prison, and not before. She is not interested in her own recovery, nor is she interested in YOUR recovery – shutting down is a “normal” response, but only for a while, Rgc – only for a while. What the wife is interested in is having someone to glom back onto after her bad experiences with the spath – but, she’s not doing the work or engaging in any type of meaningful dialogue. This is only from what I gather from your own posts. Yeah, it stinks, and yeah….it’s ugly. But, it’s what I’m reading over, and over again.

So…..when are YOU going to be placed before someone else in your own life? Just asking….

Brightest blessings


RGC – Truthspeak is spot on.

Let me tell you a story. I was on another blog a year ago when I first learned that my ex husband had a personality disorder. At first, I just thought he was a narcissist but then realized he was a FULL blown psychopath. He did not have any of the violent symptoms that are so common to psychopathy rather he was a SNAKE. He did most of his dirty work behind my back for 16 years of marriage. Clever dude – and I was a guillible participant.

On the blog last summer, I noticed that many of the women were breaking up with their “affair”to the married psychopath. they were all devastated and bitter and hurt as is expected.

So one day, I said to them – “why the hell were you dating a married men?” Well, the message board lit up…they were yelling at me and saying horrible things. They all believed that they were NOT at fault that they had just been duped.

Well, yes they had been duped. They had been love bombed and had sex ten days a week in all positions and were HOOKED. This is what psychopaths do to people.

But, they missed my point. I was questioning why they felt compelled to date a married man. They were refusing to take accountability for their role in the debaucle. When you dont take responsibility for your actions YOU NEVER MOVE FORWARD.

I got kicked off the blog. I have made many poor choices with men but I NEVER cheated with a married man either as a single woman or when I was married. Never. It wasnt even on my radar.

Despite what everyone may say about the control of a psychopath, where the hell is your integrity? Where is your moral compass of right and wrong? Sure, I forgave my psychopath for his “mistakes” but I thought this is what I was supposed to do in a “loving” relationship.

Only problem was that I was the one “loving” and he could care less.

In Sandra Brown’s book” Women Who Love Psychopaths” she lists the three inabilities:

1. The inability to grow to any authentic emotional and spiritual depth.
2. The inability to sustain positive change.
3. The inability to develop insight about how his/her negative behavior affects others.

I think these three “inabilities” apply to everyone. We all make mistakes, but most of us are capable of learning from them, regretting them and making amends.

The ones that are “stuck” should be left on their highway to nowhere. Sad but true.


truthy, SHE was the one who provived the info that got him thrown back in. i know, iv’e considered the possibility that she may have don it because she couldnt handle flicking the maggot off herself, but she did do that much,

i spoke with her last night about a temp separation. she doesnt like it. too bad.


Ox Drover

Hope52—-your experience on the “other blog” and being attacked by these bloggers—NOT ACCEPTING RESPONSIBILITY AND ACCOUNTABILITY FOR **OUR** PART IN THIS IS VERY COMMON I am afraid.

My egg donor, after she had discarded me in favor of the pedophile psychopathic ex convict who had been sent to kill me and my P son who had sent him, wanted to “let’s just pretend none of this happened”

NOOOOOOO, she didn’t want to “work on” our relationship in which she had hung, drawn and quartered me emotionally and mentally, NOOOOOO she didn’t want to admit that she had LIED and TRIED TO DRIVE ME OUT OF MY HOME INTO THE STREET, and had succeeded in doing almost that….what she wanted to do was “PRETEND NONE OF IT HAPPENED”

ANY time someone dates a married person (knowingly) their moral compass is not pointed in the “right” direction….it is “off” and if by “dating” a married person knowingly, they get ABUSED by that same married person…it is NOT BLAMING THE VICTIM to say that if they had not done something UNWISE (at the very least ) they might not have been burned.

“When you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.” When you become involved romantically with a cheat and a liar, you are not likely to find “TRUE LOVE” and it is pretty common that if he WILL CHEAT ON HER, HE WILL CHEAT ON YOU.

I also participated in my own “down fall” with my family and with others by knowing that some of these folks were not “honest” and trying to convince myself that they (literally) might murder someone else, for turning them in to the cops, but they would never do that to ME! Yea, like a married man who cheated with me wouldn’t cheat on me. Right? WRONG!

Lie to me once, shame on you, lie to me twice, SHAME ON ME.

By refusing to associate with and deal with (on a personal level) people who are dishonest, rude, crude, mean, hateful, liars etc . I have eliminated 99.9% of all the dysfunctional people in my world. Not all of those people I eliminated are psychopaths, but all psychopaths are dishonest, rude, crude, mean, hateful, and liars…so by eliminating the lower level of dysfunction I am also eliminating the higher levels as well.

I don’t expect people to be perfect, we all do things we know are wrong, but when we do…we need to CHANGE OURSELVES. So if someone dates married people and then gets burned, they NEED TO TAKE A LOOK AT THEIR OWN BEHAVIOR and make some CHANGES.


even considered the possibility that the two of them cooked this up to get me to look the other way again. and she did confess six months before his lockup and i did see her try to fight to keep him away. i just think i need her to do step two and i dont think i will settle for less. period. tuff crap if she dont wanna.

Ox Drover

You know, RGC, YOU are the “victim” here not her….she VOLUNTEERED to be his victim, and SHE ABUSED YOU in the process.

Now, that doesn’t mean that you may not have been a “neglectful” husband, not listening to her, or giving her support, BUT even if you WERE all these terrible things, if she had been HONEST AND UP FRONT, she would not have “cheated” she would have stood up to you and said, “Look you are not fulfilling my needs as a person, so I am going to look else where”

As long as YOU “volunteer” to be supportive even in spite of all the things she has done to and IS DOING to you and your family and the relationshit…then things are not going to get better for you or for the relation-SHIT (that was no typo the first time)

Maybe she will respond and come around and realize she doesn’t want to lose you and will actually work on the relationship, maybe she won’t, but in any case. YOU will quit volunteering to be her door mat and I think that is where you are emerging from now.

Hey, I AM “throwing stones” and I DO live in a “glass house” and I DID volunteer to be my son’s victim for 25+ years, so I know whither of I speaketh. Quit volunteering and set some boundaries. I wouldn’t be speaking this plainly if I didn’t think you were ready to hear the plain, unvarnished TRUTH…but I do think you are getting ready to learn to take care of RGC FIRST.

Ox Drover

RGC here is an article I wrote a while back that might be of help to you now….


so i have decided we need a temporary separation so we can both have time to think. and i feel she needs to think about who the hell she is. i’m not her dad (rest his soul) but i am her husband (for now) and i do deserve the things in a relationship outlined above. i dont care about the maggot. as long as it finds some other meat somewhere else. (my hopes are not high) i know the creep blew a gasket when he found out about my wife providing the proof they needed to nail him and i know the parole system wont protect her or me. and i know that he gets violent over stupid crap like losing a game of cards.

I know she thinks i’m bluffing. i’m not. the only thing i would consider is me leaving for a while but a close friend says if i dont make her go she wont be as inclined to think as it were. she wanted to know for how long and i said i didnt know. maybe a week, maybe a month,, or two. i dont like it much but i dont like living with the woman who did this either. she put all of us in danger. the whole family. you guys are right, SHE needs to change.

thank you all for having the guts to be honest with me. its more than most people care to do.

Ox Drover


That sounds like a reasonable suggestion (demand) to me.

She is the one who put the family in danger from this guy, not you. SHE is the one who needs to make some serious changes in herself. That doesn’t mean you don’t need to make some serious changes in yourself either.

Believe me, I HAD SOME SERIOUS CHANGES TO MAKE IN MYSELF in order to keep myself safe. My own denial of what my son was/is is what made us be i n danger in the first place.

Not only my relationsht with my son, but I picked up a boy friend who was a P after my husband died…that was 8 months of hell, and then the recovery time and grief as well…so now I am no longer “needy” where a relationship is concerned. I am happy by myself. If a relationship came along, great, but I’m not out SEARCHING for any man who will have me and that is what I was doing when I picked up that joker.

I also eliminated “friends” who were dysfunctional and high iin P traits. Some were actually P’s I think, some just arseholes, but don’t need any of them. NONE.

If your wife (for now) has any redeeming virtues she will work on getting herself straight and YOU will work on setting boundaries for how YOU ALLOW OTHERS TO TREAT YOU. You do not deserve to be treated like dog doo…but ONLY you can determine how you allow others (includign your wife) to treat you.

You have a PERFECT RIGHT to set some boundaries for her and say I WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO TREAT ME LIKE THIS AND THEN STICK TO IT.

I’m glad that you are willing to accept our “tough love” I had to start PRACTICING WHAT I ALREADY “KNEW” (but denied) because to not do it meant to die…I’m not sure that I would ever have started to “FISH” without “starvation” staring me in the face. I’m glad you haven’t waited that long. Good for you. You get a big TOWANDA!!! That’s the LoveFraud war cry for those of us learning to take care of ourselves FIRST! We can’t love anyone until we love ourselves.


Let me introduce myself, my name is Sandy Carlson rgc’s wife. I want to tell you people who think you are helping my husband that you are all wrong. Rick tears everything he thinks of apart and analizes it. This time he has gone too far!! Yes, I got caught up in an affair two years ago. It started when he would tell me everything opposite of what Rick did, (I suppose to make himself look good). We talked a lot and I opened up my feelings about home life. NOthing that any other houshold doesn’t have. He twisted it and turned it into the opposite. anyway, what I want to say is, I have no plans to ever see this guy again, if I wanted to be with him, I would have left Rick a long time ago. I love my family, I am a good person and I love my husband dearly. I am 50 years old and for the last year have been going through menapause and now I am period free for 4 months. I think this whole closeness thing or lack of is the hormones. I have talked to many womaen about this and they all say they have lack of interest at this time in thier lives. You people are driving Rick to insanity, he needs to look in his heart and know I am still here for him. Things happened and it’s over, I took the blame (Partial, it takes two) and cried many tears on my own about this whole thing. Rick you are amazing, but you need to stop talking to these people or you will go nuts. Stop messing with his mind, we have good days. I’m not some wench who has no heart, I am happy, cheery and co-depentdent and that is what got me into all this. I just want it to go away and for Rick and I to have a normal relationship if that can ever be, after you people are putting crap into his head. For being such path haters, your sure doing a number on Rick. Back off! Good Day Sandy

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