Donna Anderson’s important latest post reminds me that one topic which will never be worn out is that of the psychopath’s lies and their impact on others.
This week I want to very briefly introduce yet another take on this inexhaustible topic. Everyone lies, but there’s something else at stake in the case of the psychopath’s lies.
To illustrate: you might say about any regular (non-psychopathic) person, “Things would be better if s/he was to lie less often. Her/his soul or psyche would be healthier as would her relationships.” That’s true. Now try this on for size and notice how wrong it seems: “Things would be better if the psychopath was to lie less often. His soul or psyche would be healthier as would his relationships.”
Weirdly, this is patently not the case. The psychopath will be just as sick/evil no matter how many or how few lies he tells. It’s not a quantitative but a qualitative matter.
It is commonly said that a defining characteristic of psychopaths is that they are pathological liars. This is right if you mean that they are profoundly dishonest and not to be trusted. It does not mean, though, that psychopaths lie a lot. They do lie a lot and those lies cause havoc. But as I hope my illustration above shows, lying less will not make them better people.
So, how does this work? The thing about psychopaths is that even their truths are lies! Or rather, whether or not they happen to be telling the truth or a lie at any particular moment is not what makes them psychopathic. What makes them psychopathic is that they use and destroy people; truth or lies are for them just so many weapons for pursuing their prey.
M.L. Gallagher said a lot when she wrote this:
He is the lie….
From hello to good-bye. I love you to I hate you. You’re beautiful to you’re ugly.
It was all a lie….When friends or my family ask, but what about this, or what about that, I tell them. It was all a lie. There was no truth in him.
If I spend my time trying to figure out fact from fiction, all I am doing is trying to prove I wasn’t so stupid. See, this was true. That’s why I fell in love with him.
Truth is. I fell in love with him because I believed his lie.
When I discovered the truth, I was so enmeshed in his lie, I couldn’t find the truth in me. And so I sank.
almost_free
Love your name!
“It is so difficult to move on. I was doing so well, at least I thought I was, and now I’ve had a setback. It’s so hard to move forward until you finish looking back at what really happened to you and how he managed to be so deceitful for so long.”
Yes…and no. I call it a “set back” too, when we start missing the good guy. All of last week was, for me. BUT…if we can look at it like breaking any addiction, we have to see the set-back as a momentary thing. You don’t lose all the ground you’ve gained over all this time. Just a little bit. As long as we pick ourselves back up and keep going forward, eventually the set-backs will just be blips.
You’re still doing well. No ‘all or nothing’ thinking on this issue. That gets us into trouble, because then a momentary backslide easily becomes a wallow and a wallow turns into a contact and a contact is connected to pain and the pain is connected to the S’path (think we can make a song here, somewhere!!).
By the way, this was great, not foolish: “I know you’re lying – I can tell by that thing you do with your mouth”.
Because my first reaction was, “What — he opens it?” 🙂
You loved him. It’s ok. You probably still love him. Like many of us, you may have no idea who it is you love, but somewhere in him is that good person. Unfortunately, he shares a whole lotta airspace with the bad.
We have to love the good and bad in people, but when they’re lying to us and hurting us. We can only love them from AFAR, right?
I’d probably trade my house, car, television and beautiful new recliner for a way to not have the Wolf do the painful things he did. I could even put up with a great deal of them…but when they start to threaten our own internal well-being, well…then, no. Just…no.
Dear Almost_free,
I can relate to how you are feeling about seeing him again. I had to have physical contact with my mother (NC with her about 6 months) recently due to our combined financial insterests iin a family trust which we are co-trustees…mom is also suing my XDIL and her BF-P for the title to a vehicle that she loaned him the money for (and of course DIL destroyed the loan note) and they had convinced mom not to put a lien on the title of the truck….I have to testify at the hearing.
I had seen her recently and talked to her a time or two and didn’t feel anything negative about it—actually did well, but today I realized that just the thought of the court thing gives me a bit of a “feeling” in my gut (literally) Almost a choking in the back of my throat…I really don’t want to do it, but I know it is the right thing to do, so I will muddle through it, but I will have to use some of my “reserve” strength to get through it, and I don’t have a lot of that left.
Hopefully when this is over I will never have t see any of them again, and my son C can handle all communications with my mother. Mother is not actually a P but she has been an enablilng “P-by-proxy” for my P-son, and until I went NC with her I couldn’t “get it together” at all…and since I have been NC with her it has been heaven on earth! LOL
The most important thing I know is the “emotional” NC, though I think the physical NC has to come first and become grounded to where you can actually be enotionally “distant” from them even in their physical presence. I’m getting there with my mother, but the little “zing” in my stomach today let me know I am not totally there yet—
Lilorphan,
I didn’t even think that “little voice” was still there, until I went to fill out the paperwork. I guess hope really does spring eternal eh? Sigh. For me I think it’s not even so much hope as self-doubt. By the end of the relationship he really had me questioning my own judgement, and it’s still there a little bit.
Aloha,
My ex did return some of my things after kicking me out of the house. He claimed he was bringing all my stuff, then when I unpacked it turned out a bunch of things were missing. Of the things he did bring, some of them got damaged in the move, due to just general carelessness. And I know eventually I will be congratulating myself for standing up for myself (finally). I just didn’t think it would be this emotional.
Peggywhoever,
“Go back and look at some of your pictures of him, sometimes that is very telling (although we don’t recognize this at the time).” Yup, I’ve had this experience too. The pictures from right before we split up, you can see SO clearly in his eyes that all is not right in the head with him. I remember a few times looking in his eyes and thinking they looked kind of “flat” or less emotional than most peoples. Creepy. And my ex also has a history of bar fights, beating on coworkers (also in construction), etc. He swears up and down that he would absolutely never be violent with his partner, he will not tolerate violence in his home, and I used to believe him. But, he also went on and on about how he would NEVER be unfaithful, and well, that turned out to be a lie. So, now I think well, if he’s beat up other men before, then why not me if I really pissed him off?
Ariadne,
I know I am in the right on this one, there is no doubt in my mind. I’ve been more than fair, given him extra time to pay me, tried to negotiate, etc. But, I know how he sees the world. Nothing is ever his fault, in any way, shape or form. And what you said about that he might be mad just because I won’t get back with him – there’s that too. I think this court case will send the very clear message that we are not getting back together.
Right now I’m pretty sure he believes that, if he decides he wants me back, then I will go back. I’ve said I won’t, but I split with him and went back once before, so why should he believe me? Right now, he believes he is still in control, and once I go to court he will see that is not the case, and that’s why I’m scared of his reaction. Even after we split this time, and he had been brutal, harsh and mean to me, he still made reference to us maybe getting back together in a few months. He is that delusional.
OxDrover,
I like your suggestion of bringing a big male friend with me. Unfortunately, my ex is the biggest guy I know. He was always the guy in my group of people that you would go to if you needed a large male friend to accompany you somewhere unsafe. How ironic, eh? I remember that when I was with him, I always used to feel very safe, because he was big and very protective of me (at least in the beginning). Of course now I think it was just part of his act. Blech.
Anyway, thanks everyone. My dad has offered to go with me to get my things, and I’m deciding whether I can face going or not. You ladies are so great, and thank you for the advice.
It’s so weird writing on here in a way. I know this all totally anonymous and stuff, but I still withhold identifying details and try to stick to generalities, because I am paranoid that somehow, in some way, my ex or his wife might find my writing here. Anyone else do the same thing?
greengirl:
Can you make a definitive list of items that your dad can follow and you NOT go? Personally don’t advise you going along. Painful, for one. Inciting emotions on your part, and perhaps rage or anger on his (even if he doesn’t show it).
You sound really great! Stable, grounded, sure of yourself. Suspect that doubt of your own judgment will come and go for a time, but you’ll ultimately be fine again.
Sorry that he’s the biggest guy you know. My very short-term Mr. Perfect Work Party Date was hugely tall – I felt so safe around him, too. Must be difficult to feel unsafe around a big guy. More threatening, somehow. The Wolf isn’t a big guy, at all. But that’s perception, because no matter the size, a P or S is still capable of great evil.
One step at a time, one more reclaimed item, drawing a line in the sand…it’s all making you much stronger. Nothing of yours belongs left behind with that man and you are clear on that.
Hi Lilorphan,
Thanks. I am finally feeling grounded and strong in myself again. I didn’t realize how much of myself I had lost until after my ex was gone. I’d always said if a guy ever hit me, I would have left him. But honestly, by the end of the relationship I was so messed up in the head (and didn’t even realize it) that I’m pretty sure I would have stayed even if he had started hitting me, and would have blamed myself for it too. Yikes.
Well, my ex is in a different town, so my dad said he would prefer if I at least went to the town with him. My dad did offer to drop me off somewhere in town, and go to my ex’s house without me, then come back and get me. That way, I won’t have to see my ex, but my dad won’t have to do a long drive by himself. I’m still thinking about all the options. The one and only reason I would want to go to the house is so that I can make sure all my things are there and nothing is “missed” or “forgotten” this time.
Yeah, feeling unsafe around someone who’s much bigger than you is not fun. I don’t usually feel physically intimidated by men, and I think of myself as being fairly tough. My ex was both huge and exceptionally strong, even for guys his size – just a very physically intimidating person. We used to play fight and he’d pin me down or grab my wrists and I’d not be able to move or get out of his grip at all, which is unusual for me.
It’s always scary to be around someone who you think might become violent, no matter their size. But I remember being really freaked out when my ex started flipping out, because I remember thinking “If he attacks me, I’m screwed, what am I going to do?” If he ever hauled off and hit anyone it would probably be hard enough to do some damage, even if he wasn’t intending to. Also, he had some martial arts training and stuff, so I was intimidated by that as well.
I am reading a really good book right now about abusive men. It’s called “Why does he do that? Inside the Minds of angry and controlling men”, and the author is Lundy Bancroft. He doesn’t discuss psychopathy specifically, but talks about both the tactics of physical and emotional abuse, and the mindsets of abusive men (some of which are shared by S/Ps.) In one of the parts of the book, he says that some (definitely not all) abusers have a tough guy, macho persona, and go around getting in fights and being intimidating.
He states that some women mistakenly find this comforting because these type of men make them feel safe to be around and protected. However, that type of behavior of a man trying to intimidate others is always a red flag of an abuser, according to the author. He said that men who go around intimidating people will eventually turn that behavior on their female partner, and obviously then she will no longer find it comforting. I felt like he was writing about me in that section. Oh the red flags, how they were flapping away in my face, and how I didn’t want to see them.
It’s funny, because I have always felt like a strong, independent sort of woman. In the past, I’d felt like some of my boyfriends hadn’t been quite a match for me, as they were not quite as strong-willed or whatever as I am. I thought with my ex, okay, here I am finally getting together with another person with a strong personality, how nice. And it was great, for a little while. After that, oh how wrong I was.
Greengirl,
I was also scared that my stepmom would find out that I was posting on this site and do something crazy. But then I thought, you know, if she wanted to do something to me she would find another excuse anyway. So why should I feel afraid to post things when I know she is capable of doing crazy shit to me in any case? Posting here is important to me and it really makes my day when I can connect with you guys and feel like I’m not the only one who has been through this. I don’t put my personal info anywhere on the internet, but talking to everyone here really keeps me sane. Our stories all sound so much alike anyway. The s’s follow the same script all over the world.
That plan with your dad sounds good, as long as he doesn’t let the ex know you’re in town. Just in case the town brings back painful memories for you, maybe you could bring an uplifting book to read while you’re there. You do sound like a strong independent woman so I’m sure you’ll do fine. Keep us posted on how you’re doing.
hi all; in regards to giving things back or not, mine was so spiteful as far as i know he hasnt got anything of mine that i know about, but wheni first met him at work i gave him a little pen with the words from me to you on it it was a free pen i was given and i gave it to him just as a gesture not a big deal but he was so impressed . when he left me he took every last thing of his in my flat but you know what he left behind ? the pen so significant and hurtful to me . he even came visiting many times and never took that pen with him when he left. how spiteful is that. and on the no guilt or concience, i asked him once when he said stop trying to make me feel bad or something to that affect, and i said do you feel guilty about leaving me. and he answered no but b la h blah i cant remember what else he said after the no because i couldnt believe my ears. so thats it you say you love someone want to have children and be together for ever, do you feel guilty no thats it in one for me he didnt even flinch in saying that to me. that proved to me how cold he is . just saying that to someone is going to hurt them. go figure. best wishes to you all.
Aloha and Beverly,
Thank you so very much. I have not seen him for over a year although every couple of months he calls and tries to get it going all over again. I was so very stupid the first 6 years but no more. The sad part is, within the first year of meeting him, a friend of mine told me he is a pschopath. I read everything I could on the subject and whole heartedly agreed. But…still continued to see him until a year ago. Still hurtful though. When I hear his voice, that little part of me still wants, hopes and wishes he was the man I wanted him to be. I think my biggest problem right now is the healing. I have not talked about it to anyone and suffer silently. Lovefraud helps to keep me in check and not feel so alone, thanx.
Ariadne,
I used to feel such “shame” that my son was in prison, and especially for murder that I kept it a deep dark secret even from very close friends. I felt that though I had nothing to “blame” myself for that others would “look down” upon me and blame me for it. I spent years like that.
When he went back to prison for murder after only a short time out from a theft charge, I fell APART…I literally locked myself in my home for three months, crying, not eating, and withdrew from the world entirely. I was in such deep grief and shame that I would rather have had my son dead and the girl he killed in prison. It would have made the shame and grief less. Plus I was so scared with my son in prison, what would happen to him? Rape? Beatings? Stabbing?
A few months after that, a friend of mine who was director of nurses at a psych hospital kept calling me and begging me to go to work there as there was a great shortage of nurses at the time. So I took a part time job there–she let me set my o own hours, etc. I was doing “intake” interviews with parents who brought their out of control kids there. Actually I think this was “therapy” for me. I actually saw that I WAS NOT ALONE. And in addition to that, I saw that the things my kid had done were not the “worst” things in the world, there are things WORSE than murder.
I had to keep myself in “check” and couldn’t of course let on that I KNEW how these parents felt, or allow my own personal grief into the interview–which I think proves what a great ACTRESS I can be…even when my own world is falling apart I can “keep up the front” of calm, cool and collected.
However, I have now also realized how MUCH ENERGY it takes to keep up this front and “never let’em see you bleed” and “don’t air your dirty laundry in public” and “what would the neighbors think?”
You know, now I NO LONGER GIVE A RAT’S BEHIND WHAT THE NEIGHBORS THINK. I will no longer keep up the “front” that took so much energy. I don’t share my innermost secrets or thoughts with people I know don’t really care, but I don’t keep up the “everything is wonderful” front. If someone I really don’t’ want to share with asks me “how are you” I may just say “Oh, I’m better but I’ll get over it.” and then laugh. But in a safe environment, I no longer keep up the FRAUD of a FRONT that I am OK when I am NOT OK.
It is amazing how much more energy I have for myself and my own life now that I am no longer “worried” and “frazzled” trying to pretend that my life is wonderful when it is falling apart.
I am asking for help and support appropriately from people that I know will willingly give it, not as a “payment” on control, and I am finally setting appropriate boundaries and becoming more secure in my choices of those boundaries and my way of setting them in a healthy manner. I have NC’d the people out of my life that are either Ps or “P-s by proxy” and am making efforts to avoid unnecessarily stressful situations. I am learning to say NO when someone asks me for something and it is not something I feel comfortable or willing to do.
These are all new and exciting ways for me to look at life and I am seeing some real results and benefits in accomplishing this growth. I still have a ways to go, but I am getting there, and now realize that the “healing” process is not a destination, but a journey, a life long journey of learning and growing.
OxDrover,
I think, like you said, learning to say no and setting boundaries is one of the most important things we can learn from encounters like these. Before, I definitely didn’t know how to say no and it got me in a lot of trouble. I was so worried about being seen as rude that I let people walk all over me.
Now, I have no qualms about being rude to someone I know wants to take advantage of me. I usually don’t insult anyone, I just ignore them and don’t play into their pity party games by trying to comfort them. I really couldn’t care less if people think I’m a bitch for that. I never get “bullied” into anything anymore, and it feels really good.
Healing is definitely a journey and it’s really nice to see that everyone here is at different stages of that journey. Maybe going through all the pain and hardship of a relationship with a sociopath is actually worth it in the end. I’ve learned so much, from my experiences and from all the people here.