Donna Anderson’s important latest post reminds me that one topic which will never be worn out is that of the psychopath’s lies and their impact on others.
This week I want to very briefly introduce yet another take on this inexhaustible topic. Everyone lies, but there’s something else at stake in the case of the psychopath’s lies.
To illustrate: you might say about any regular (non-psychopathic) person, “Things would be better if s/he was to lie less often. Her/his soul or psyche would be healthier as would her relationships.” That’s true. Now try this on for size and notice how wrong it seems: “Things would be better if the psychopath was to lie less often. His soul or psyche would be healthier as would his relationships.”
Weirdly, this is patently not the case. The psychopath will be just as sick/evil no matter how many or how few lies he tells. It’s not a quantitative but a qualitative matter.
It is commonly said that a defining characteristic of psychopaths is that they are pathological liars. This is right if you mean that they are profoundly dishonest and not to be trusted. It does not mean, though, that psychopaths lie a lot. They do lie a lot and those lies cause havoc. But as I hope my illustration above shows, lying less will not make them better people.
So, how does this work? The thing about psychopaths is that even their truths are lies! Or rather, whether or not they happen to be telling the truth or a lie at any particular moment is not what makes them psychopathic. What makes them psychopathic is that they use and destroy people; truth or lies are for them just so many weapons for pursuing their prey.
M.L. Gallagher said a lot when she wrote this:
He is the lie….
From hello to good-bye. I love you to I hate you. You’re beautiful to you’re ugly.
It was all a lie….When friends or my family ask, but what about this, or what about that, I tell them. It was all a lie. There was no truth in him.
If I spend my time trying to figure out fact from fiction, all I am doing is trying to prove I wasn’t so stupid. See, this was true. That’s why I fell in love with him.
Truth is. I fell in love with him because I believed his lie.
When I discovered the truth, I was so enmeshed in his lie, I couldn’t find the truth in me. And so I sank.
newworld,
Yes, he never called me by my first name! Always honey, sweetie, etc. We were even photographed at a restaurant once and it was in the newspaper with his name & “guest”! They knew him very well there, but didn’t see me that often, since he used to bring all of his women there. How sick!
Glinda,
I get so confused sometimes when I think of all his lies and all of the contradictions. If I was living a lie for all of these years, then how do I even get to the truth of who I am and what is real?? If everything he said to me… from how good I looked to how great my cooking was to ‘I love you’ … was a lie, then how do I even begin to know the truth about anything? It’s just so confusing. Does anyone know what I mean?
At the beginning of my discovery of everything, I researched Scott Peterson like crazy because I truly feel this could be my husband. I feared for my life for awhile, and then I let the fears go. It wasn’t doing me any good. I went so far as to warn my family members that if I do go missing, there is no doubt about who did it.
It is such a relief to hear all of your stories, as you really think that you are the only one in the world going through all of this craziness. I even had a therapist question my thinking when I told her some of the horrible things he has said to me after leaving. “No one could actually say something like that and mean it. I’m sure he just wasn’t thinking about what he was saying.” She met with him once, and somehow already had him all figured out … NOT. The sad thing is he absolutely means every nasty thing he says. Yet, he can still walk into a room and charm them all with his smile.
Almost free,
I had a therapist do the same thing to me. As a kid, I was having behavioral problems and my grades were suffering because of my S stepmother’s abuse. I went to a therapist and told her what my stepmother did and said. I said that she constantly thought up new ways to humiliate and torture me. The response? “You are a spoiled brat who has no respect for her elders.” Thanks a lot. It really sucks when therapists don’t understand S’s evilness and question us about it. Like we don’t have big enough problem with doubting our perceptions already.
I do know what you mean about the confusion you feel. My S stepmother and the N I dated later on both contributed to that feeling. The projection of their bad points on you is difficult, but so is the fact that they might have been lying about the good stuff too. After the relationship with the N, I was all mixed up. I guess forgetting everything they said is the only way to stay sane. Whether they give compliments or insults, anything they say is just manipulation anyway. I think we have to go through everything and replace their words with our own perception of ourselves. Like he said I couldnt finish my master’s degree because it would be too hard for me. I had to erase that out of my brain and ask myself, Do I think I can do it? and the answer is HELL YES. So make yourself your favorite dish and taste it. Do you like it? If yes, then SCREW HIM, no matter if it was a true compliment or just flattery. If not then try another recipe until you get it right. lol
It’s hard not to pay attention to the opinion of someone you love, but even then your opinion of yourself should override anything anyone else says.
Almost free, I know exactly what you mean. I’m struggling with the confusion right now too. Everything you said I could have written. I’m having a hard time having an opinion on anything and everything. My whole adult life (over 18 yrs) up until last year was all based on lies. I feel like I don’t know if my opinions and preferences are based on reality or manipulations. I have to figure out what “I” like, what “I” don’t like, and what “I” think about a subject and not have his influence of lies dictate them. I am determined to be me and get his voice out of my head.
Ariadne, I’m going to take your advice you gave for almost free. Do I think I can do it ? HELL YES. If IIIII like something- SCREW HIM. His voice is no longer welcome in my head.
I am new here, however, I have been reading blogs on this website for quite some time now. The more I read, the more I felt like my life/relationship was being written about, by so many of you….scary and oh so very sad.
I kicked out Mr. S a little more than a week ago, for the second and FINAL time. He would have been out a lot sooner, but he just refused to leave my home. For the last 2-3 months, I barely slept in my own bed, as he would not leave the bed…I spent most night on the sofa. Whenever I would go to bed, due to sore neck and back muscles, he would pretend everything was fine in our relationship (complete denial/refusing to accept any responsibilityfor behaviours) and would always try to initiate sex, usually for his own satisfaction.
My week alone has been a mixture of many emotions…happiness for my new found freedom, grieving for the death of a the fantasy I allowed myself to continue dreaming/hoping about, anger toward him, anger towards myself for being “too nice”, guilty for kicking him out when he is broke, and sometimes, just plain NUMB…I couldn’t feel anything….just mentally/emotionally/physically drained.
Nonetheless, I had no contact with him at all (pick-up of his belongings is thru legal authorities). Yesterday, he wrote me an email asking if I was ok and could we speak and of course, “I love you”. Though I haven’t replied, I have read this email at least a dozen times….and remind myself each time that this is just another lie….another piece of “bait” he’s put on his hock to reel me in again.
What’s really confusing/amazing to me is WHY we (the victim) is still drawn to these losers/con artists, knowing what we know and living what we’ve lived…..WHY?
This upsets me cause I can see how my “weaknesses” and “imagined love” for this man made me a perfect little toy to be played with in his game of fools….
WHY DO WE STILL HAVE THE URGE TO RESPOND, COMMUNICATE WITH THEM, AFTER EVERYTHING THAT WE HAVE LIVED AND KNOW ABOUT THESE CRUEL BEINGS???
I’m so much smarter than that…why?
I hate him for my weakness for his words/attention/touch/etc.
Sounds weird, huh?
Dear Glinda,
My P-son in prison had an “affair” with a female major who was very attractive and very married. She came into the visiting room one time when we were there visiting and you could SEE the sparks fly between their eyes—it was SO OBVIOUS to me, I can’t see why her co-workers didn’t KNOW IMMEDIATELY.
She was RISKING a felony conviction and losing her career if they got caught. WHY? To have sex with an inmate who probably won’t ever get out!? DUH! Unless she was also a P.
There was also a secretary in the same institution who was having sex with an inmate and another staff member. She was knifed to death and the inmate was knifed to death as well, it was labeled a “murder suicide” in the papers, but my son told me that her staff-member BF killed them both when he found out about her and the inmate. Either way is likely. Doesn’t matter, two dead people.
A friend of mine who worked in a co-ed federal institution (medium security) said that there were from 1-4 staff members fired each month for having sex with inmates, both male and female staff members.
I don’t understand WHY staff would have sex with inmates, but in the book I am reading about risk assessment, apparently this is a VERY common thing in prisons with mixed populations and mixed staff members. There is also quite a problem with homosexuals either having sex with inmates. As well as staff rape of inmates, both straight and gay. (head shaking here).
Neither do I understand why institutions have mixed sexes in the same institution, or why there are female guards in a male prison, or why there are male guards in a female prison. Gimmie a break! I am for “equal job and other rights” for women, but there are SOME THINGS THAT ARE NOT EVEN LOGICAL.
I worked for a while in an adolescent psych unit with 12 year old males 6 ft tall or taller, who were budding “Ps” and the only way I made it was because I had a “linebacker” on each side of me who was a mental health tech. Even then I almost got killed one evening when by mistake I was left alone with a patient who had it “in for ” me. After surviving that night I decided it was God’s way of telling me that I didn’t want that job any more.
As a nurse practitioner I could have made “nice money” working in a prison, but never was tempted in the least, even though I had a prison near me at one place I lived.
Welcome FREEBIRD,
Your question, “why we are still drawn to these losers/con artists, knowing…” is the question we have all asked, and repeatedly asked—there are “thousands” of blogs here about that very subject, and so I won’t repeat them again, but read on and I think you will find lots of answers—and all of them are RIGHT.
Nah, it doesn’t sound WEIRD, at all. WE here understand and it isn’t weird to us, but yes, most people would think it was weird, but they haven’t had the experience. This is one of those things that to fully understand it you have to experience it I think. It is so foreign to most of what we think we know and believe. I was discussing this subject today with a female physician friend of mine who got SUCKED into a relationship with a P. Doctor she worked with. She was DEVESTATED while he went on his merry way—we came to the conclusions that the smarter you are, the bigger sucker you make for them because you think you are smart enough not to be “conned.” PRIDE GOETH BEFORE A FALL. LOL
Again, welcome.
Thank you OxGrover for your response.
The funniest thing is happening to me….well, at least I choose to see it as funny, at this point.
Mr. S is calling EVERY mutual friend and telling them that I am the psychopath…that I am the abusive woman who took all of his millions (yet, I’ve supported him for nearly 1 1/2 years), that I have “break downs” that consist of sitting in the middle of my backyard (which still has at least 1 foot of snow) and rocking myself for comfort, that I accused him of killing my bird….basically, that I AM INSANE and need to be committed to a mental institution…!!!! How do I know this? These mutual friends are calling me (I hadn’t contacted any of them after booting his ass out) and checking how I am doing and actually asking me ABOUT HIM….ASKING IF HE IS DESCRIBING HIMSELF….!!!!
I’ve read thru this blog about gaslighting….and through my relationship, I lived this exact scenario over and over again. Now, even after he is out, he continues with his mission to convince others of his milicious stories about me….only for it to be turning around on him (though he has no idea that these friends are calling me in the background).
Have any of you experienced this scenario? I want to go back to the blog on this subject, but am not sure where I saw it. Any help/direction/story would be helpful.
Not letting it bother me too much, as it is back-firing on him, but like so many other situtations, you want to feel that you are not the only one being targetted in this manner….still need the support group from this wonderful and resourceful website.
OxDrover,
This is good: “the smarter you are, the bigger sucker you make for them because you think you are smart enough not to be ‘conned.’ That is the irony of it all, because we are so smart!
Freebird,
Yes, the S will go on and on blaming you for everything and attempting to make you look like the crazy one. He’s looked right at me and told me “You need help”. About the only help I needed at the time was to get far away from him, and start healing myself from his years of emotional abuse. I am doing that now, but it is going to take a long time. You have to be strong enough to completely ignore him and know that you are the healthy one.
FREEBIRD,
That, like many of their behaviors has a NAME–“the smear campaign” and they all seem to do it! So that is one of the things you can expect.
Some people may actually believe their lies, especially if they are really good and the people don’t really know you all that well.
The smear campaign is one that they use if they work with you, and sometimes they can ruin a job or a career for you if they are good enough at it and highly placed. Been there and experienced that one for sure!
My mother, who is an “P-by-proxy” (my term) as she is a malignant ENABLER and protects the P (her grandson, my son) from the consequences of his behavior–was the one that told me that I was a Psychopath and told everyone in the community how I had mistreated her–fortunately not everyone believed her, especially when her newest “golden children” (the wife of another son of mine) and my mom’s live in caregiver went to PRISON for trying to kill my DIL’s husband, son C. LOL So sometimes the “smear campaign” can back fire on them—it is NOT funny though, when they are successful. You can read here how many people they succeeded in smearing pretty badly.
It is, though, almost funny, (if the damage wasn’t so bad) how they are in so many ways SO PREDICTABLE.
When I was in nursing school, I learned to recognize certain children with various “genetic conditions” just by looking at their faces. Children with “condition x” would display a certain facial characteristic that was unique to that condition. Children with “condition Y” would display another unique set of characteristics, so that simply by looking at a child you could pretty well know what was wrong with the child. Even though, each child still had his OWN unique facial features and was identifiable from all other children in the world by his own UNIQUE face, just like the rest of us.
I think Ps are pretty much like that, yet there are quite a few similarities in the “faces” (the way they act) that are unique to their “condition.”
Sometimes in the nursery there would be a child born that “just didn’t look right” in the face, we couldn’t put our fingers on it and say “it was most likely condition X or Y” we just knew that some how that child had a “problem” just by looking at it’s facial characteristics. Maybe the ears were set too low, or the forehead too short, there was SOMETHING that made us know that that child had a PROBLEM. As nurses are want to do, we called it the FLK (funny looking kid) syndrome. Many times these children would later test to have some genetic condition that was so rare that it was seldom seen, but because we were attuned to “looking for” anything possibly wrong with a new born infant we knew to keep looking for something even though we didn’t know just exactly what.
The same with the Ps–sometimes you can immediately spot one by his actions, other times you just know he is an FLK–you almost instinctively KNOW that there is something OFF in this individual, but you aren’t sure just what. BUT DON’T IGNORE THAT INSTINCTIVE feeling—there is SOMETHING wrong with that individual’s behavior that may turn out to be a “rare” form of P–or one with more “cover up” skills than is usual.
Almost 100% of the time bloggers on here knew SOMETHING was wrong, that there were some RED FLAGS, but IGNORED IT, GLOSSED IT OVER, EXPLAINED IT AWAY, but I can’t think of but one or two bloggers who didn’t have SOME warning.
Instead, we doubted ourselves, doubted our own intuition, let them take over and “explain it away” BECAUSE we DIDN”T WANT TO BELIEVE there was anything “wrong” with our LOVED ONE. It is that DENIAL of the defects in ones that we love that HOOKS US. Just as some of the parents of children born with problems don’t want to accept that their child is not perfect—we don’t want to accept that our “beloved” (lover, husband/wife, son, daughter, parent, friend, boss) is A MONSTER.
Even when my child, my talented, social, wonderful son, started showing definite signs of being a Psychopath of classic proportions and horrible violence, it was so painful for me to accept that my son was a VISCIOUS MONSTER, not only capable of murder, but actually PROUD that he was, that at great emotional cost to myself, I keep up the malignant HOPE rather than face the ugly and painful truth.
The truth is indeed very painful, but in the end, facing it will set us FREE. Relive us of the pain, and allow us to heal and move on with a life that is healthy and happy.
OxDrover
I’m really sorry to hear that your son has turned out to be a psychopath. What a nightmare it must be for you to have your own child grow up from a sweet, innocent baby into a monster.
I’ve heard many views on this site (particularly from Dr Leedam) about the genetic and environmental origins of psychopathy. Is there anything in your opinion that you might have done in bringing your son up that contributed to him being like this? Or was it something that was there to begin with and merely grew despite a nurturing and supportive enviornment. My own experience of colonial school systems was quite interesting for me in this regard. Some teenagers I knew were beaten up very badly at school and at home and turned into very gentle adults, despite being brought up in apparently very violent and unstable conditions. In other cases I saw children that seemed (for no apparent reason) to be evil. They fought, intimidated, stole and behaved appallingly despite having had apparently loving homes (although, having said that, ones impression as an outsider isn’t always something to go by). My gut instinct is that genetics plays a much bigger role than we dare admit to ourselves. How else can I explain the existence of very gentle and caring people in the face of a total lack of love on behalf of their parents? For example, I know one guy who was beaten so badly at boarding school that his spleen ruptured. His parents on finding out, were very concerned that he didn’t come to be known as a “wimp” in the local community, and sent him straight back as soon as he got out of hospital with a “stiff upper lip”. Often as a kid he would be found at his friends houses scavenging for food because he had none at home and he and his brother were clearly invisible to their otherwise empty, mean and loveless parents. Both of those boys grew up to be respectable, successful young men and both are some of the sweetest people I’ve met, neither would hurt so much as a fly. The older brother has even married and had children and settled down in an apparently happy relationship. The younger brother has more trouble with intimacy but is by no means a wicked person. According to many psychiatrist types, both these kids could not possibly have turned out that wel. Similarly, I was at school with people who didn’t have violent homes, who weren’t beaten up at school and who were comfortable and middle class, and yet, exhibited what I believe to be rather psychopathic traits (interpersonal manipulativeness, violence, impulse control problems etc)
Having had a child develop (in your own estimation) into a “viscous monster”, could you perhaps comment on what I’ve just said.
Incidentally, the reason I log on tonight (and I haven’t done for many months) is because I was mugged at gunpoint lastnight and kidnapped for 20 minutes in Cape Town (south africa). I was in a restaurant, finished my food, left and was greeted by a member of the kitchen staff as I left. He enquired as to why I was walking home, and I mentioned that the car was round the block. He offered to walk me to it. We walked, he chatted to me about the restaurant, told me about his child, his wife, how his parents had been quite rough and how he wanted an honest life. When we got to the car he then asked me if I could drop him off home. At this stage I thought, well, he’s walked me all this way, he’s an employee of a restaurant I frequent, its probably safe. I got in the car, drove him in the directions he gave. Very soon I found that we turned into a blind alleyway in which I stopped. He said, cheerfully, my child is here, you must see her, she;ll come to the door now. As I got out the car he came over to me, showed me a gun, and his demeanour changed from that of a pleasant, responsible and charming 18 year old to a predatory reptile. His eyes were filled with a spooky emptyness and rage. He told me to hand over my money, and my cell phone and then told me to get in the passenger side of my vehicle. Then he jumped in and started driving around cape town. I asked him where we were going, to which he replied, “don’t worry, nothings going to happen to you, I’ve killed to many fucking people”. I wondered whether I should try and open the door and escape onto the road and run into the night of Cape Town, or whether I should sit still and hope he wasn’t driving me to my doom, or attempt to punch him with all my might whilst he drove. Then he stopped. He got out, said, “drive, and if you ever mention this to anyone I’ll hunt you down and kill you” and then walked off. I sped away without looking back.
I got thinking today. Is this man a psychopath? Or is he a troubled product of apartheid south africa who has learned to view me as “the other”, “the enemy”. I know one therapist here who habitually deals with rapists and murderers and who says the trouble is that so many of them don’t fit the bill of a psycopath. Many of them do terrible things, and yet appear to feel remorse and shame afterwards (and in her estimation it’s not simulated in many cases). In her opinion only about half of the people who commit these things fall into the category of having no conscience, no remorse, no capacity for shame, habitual absence of impulse control etc) Whatever it is, I feel more uncertain about how to judge behaviour like I experienced.
Very often I feel the discussions in this site seem to throw all aspects of bad behavior into the psychopathic box. Sometimes I feel that this is done to such an extent that I’m left feeling that the people commenting are damaged and incapable of empathy and compassion themselves for they fail to realise that all human beings do bad things at times. For someone to have an affair (as an example) or cheat on somebody does not in my opinion constitute imoral behaviour that signifies a psycopathy red flag (indeed the idea that this is imoral is quite an anglosaxon cultural phenomeno; try speaking to the french, they think it’s almost an integral part of marriage!). Shakespeare and everyday life have taught me that we all do bad things, and that ones idea of psycopathy should perhaps lie more in the detail of the acts and the context of them, rather than the existence of human shortcomings (indeed is man not a fallen creature?).
In summary, I’d appreciate your insights since you seem to have first hand experience of dealing with your own son and generally appear to have astute instincts on a variety of matters.
Dear Beastflow,
First off I am so sorry that this happened to you. I love your country and was there in 1966-7 doing wild life photography and am planning a trip back there to visit friends this year.
I can’t say if this young man was a psychopath or not, but his behavior was definitely violent, and impulsive. Also he may have planned to do that to you from the start, or may have just acted on impulse. Either way, it doesn’t bode will I would believe for this young man’s life being good.
I realize that not all societies and cultures agree on what is “moral” or “immoral”–and that changes with time and location even with the same people. My own 7th to 12th century ancestors in Scotland and Great Britain would most likely have thought me a witch and burned me at the stake for my beliefs which they would have thought were from Satan.
Islam, today, the radical group, dehumanize women and kaffairs (non-believers) and would like to exterminate us as vermin. My own country at one time thought that “indentured servants” and “slaves” were the property of their owners and could be treated as subhuman.
There were times that the Christian church and countries tried to exterminate the Muslims. Are all those psychopathic behaviors? Not generally, but they are belief systems shared by a large group–a culture.
Not everyone who robs a liquor store here is a psychopath, but psychopaths rob liquor stores…not every man who cheats on his wife is a psychopath, but psychopaths tend to cheat sexually.
It is as you said, the “context” and the fact that the psychopath has a belief system that equates others with “OBJECTS” and they are not properly able to bond with other humans, and thus treat them with malice or disregard entirely.
You are right, the oppressed and abused don’t always turn out to be oppressors or abusers, but many times kind and caring people. There is a BIG I think genetic component to psychopaths, as well as some environmental and learning aspects as well.
I hope that you recover from your trauma, be good to yourself and be very careful in the future.