Donna Anderson’s important latest post reminds me that one topic which will never be worn out is that of the psychopath’s lies and their impact on others.
This week I want to very briefly introduce yet another take on this inexhaustible topic. Everyone lies, but there’s something else at stake in the case of the psychopath’s lies.
To illustrate: you might say about any regular (non-psychopathic) person, “Things would be better if s/he was to lie less often. Her/his soul or psyche would be healthier as would her relationships.” That’s true. Now try this on for size and notice how wrong it seems: “Things would be better if the psychopath was to lie less often. His soul or psyche would be healthier as would his relationships.”
Weirdly, this is patently not the case. The psychopath will be just as sick/evil no matter how many or how few lies he tells. It’s not a quantitative but a qualitative matter.
It is commonly said that a defining characteristic of psychopaths is that they are pathological liars. This is right if you mean that they are profoundly dishonest and not to be trusted. It does not mean, though, that psychopaths lie a lot. They do lie a lot and those lies cause havoc. But as I hope my illustration above shows, lying less will not make them better people.
So, how does this work? The thing about psychopaths is that even their truths are lies! Or rather, whether or not they happen to be telling the truth or a lie at any particular moment is not what makes them psychopathic. What makes them psychopathic is that they use and destroy people; truth or lies are for them just so many weapons for pursuing their prey.
M.L. Gallagher said a lot when she wrote this:
He is the lie….
From hello to good-bye. I love you to I hate you. You’re beautiful to you’re ugly.
It was all a lie….When friends or my family ask, but what about this, or what about that, I tell them. It was all a lie. There was no truth in him.
If I spend my time trying to figure out fact from fiction, all I am doing is trying to prove I wasn’t so stupid. See, this was true. That’s why I fell in love with him.
Truth is. I fell in love with him because I believed his lie.
When I discovered the truth, I was so enmeshed in his lie, I couldn’t find the truth in me. And so I sank.
rBLUE:
Listen to Oxdrover. She has more experience with P’s than any of us, and more than we ever aspire to! She’s as close to an expert on P’s as anyone, at least as far as personal experience goes.
Salvage yourself some peace of mind and happiness, stay away. Nothing but webs of lies and deceit will come from a S. Save yourself a headache, heartache, and pocketbook ache by moving on. You will not find happiness with a Sociopath. Never. Be strong.
rblue: I used to say the same thing “what if I am wrong about him” “what if THIS TIME he really means it”. My mom said something that really made sense to me and quieted my internal worry that I might miss out on something good if I didnt believe him.
She said “regardless of what he is saying The Risk is Too High with a man like that! The chances that all the garbage resurfaces again is too high! The chance that he is lying is too high. The probability of him being deceptive in the future is too high”. The likelihood that this man will hurt you deeply again is too high. You get the picture. Ya, maybe THIS time he’s not lying but are you willing to risk your sanity, your peace of mind, your future – and bank on a man that has shown you already what he is made of???
He is desperate for you to stop talking to that other woman because she makes it harder for him to keep up his Game.
You are on a merry-go-round that is out of control and you are losing your common sense and not listening to your inner voice possibly. So it feels like you are spinning crazy in your head ~ been there ~ done that. You have to stop, decide whether its worth it to have to DEAL with this guy and his ways now and down the road. Its probably going to be a bumpy one, for sure!!
hugs rblue – you would be okay without this man!
what do I do now when I’m feeling like I should call him to see if he is okay. He texted me asking him not to leave him. I feel bad. I’m trying not to call. I am trying to be strong. All of the support is good…. but I still feel bad. He says he wants to be a family with me and my son. The stuff about the money they take from women….he actually didn’t do that…he actually sent me money because he knew I needed help. (no child support at times and all) he said that is what a man is suppose to do…take care of his family, to make sacrifices for those u love. So I guess your gonna still say he is a s because of the other things….but I just wanted to share my thoughts im having right now…I guess I am just doubting things right now….not trusting myself because I have been so upside down confused about everything i feel like i might be going crazy!!!!
RBLUE,
He does NOT want to be a family with you, he wants to CONTROL you, he is “being nice” and saying waht you want to hear so that you will listen to him and be sucked back in.
HE IS A LIAR. He is not telling you the truth. He won’t tell you the truth.
You have not done anything to him that you should feel bad, he is the one that has DONE bad,
Go back and read the posts you wrote about how awful he has been to you, lied, cheated, etc.
They don’t have to take money from you to be a psychopath, they are a psychopath because they u se others in 100s of different ways, but they CANNOT love, they only pretend to.
YOU are in control of your own life if you want to be, you are strong if you will let yourself be. As long as you listen to him, he will control you, you will be confused and hurt and each time you go back to him, it starts all over. YOU have to decide that you want to take care of yourself and your son, or if you want to listen to his lies. As long as you listen to him, you can’t trust yourself. He will hold out the FANTASY of loving you, but it will NEVER BE REAL.
Come here and post, but don’t listen to him, don’t text him, don’t answer if he calls. As long as you do the confusion will go on.
Thisi the thing where YOU MUST SAVE YOURSELF AND YOUR CHILD, we can’t do it for you, we can only be your cheer leaders, your friends and support, but YOU must take the reins of your own salvation.
Rblue:
Visit this site below. This is how a N views the world.
http://www.cosmicwalk.co.za/signs-of-narcissism.html#
Rblue:
Here is another link, I think you may find it helpful; this website helps identify what you may be going through, and gives some advice as to what to do next. You are an ABUSED woman. You perhaps just don’t fully realize it yet.
http://www.cosmicwalk.co.za/dealing-with-abuse.html
Thanks Aloha for the dont move to Hawaii tip – I’ll trust ya on that 😉
rblue: mine gave me money and things all the time. I think because he knew no man ever “took care of me like that” or paid my way, or freely gave items to me that I could use. Like a leaf blower cuz it hurt my back to rake, or a hose rack because my hose was all over the ground, or a ladder so I could pick my apples… on and on. I went to see my dad in New Mexico and we went to stay at a casino/hotel one night in a resort town, and I got a message to go to the front desk. I went there and he had wired $200 to me so I could take my dad to a nice dinner. Always something.
Yes – in a normal situation – I would have thought wow, how nice!! But NO.. it was payoff for the fact that he was cheating and lying and he was keeping me pacified so I wouldnt think he didnt care or get suspicious. And he knows I am no way a materialistic person and therefore he knew how very very appreciative I was of those things. He did it so I would think “I couldnt leave this man, look how much he cares for me!!”. He cheated and lied through the entire 2 years of all his “caring and giving”.
You cant look at the surface of the things they say and do for you. You have to look at their character, their track record, the % of confusion they drum up in you, the risk factor, the ways he’s treated you so far, the compromises you have to make in order to keep peace, and the little whispering voice in you that is screaming “something is not right here!”
I know what you feel. I went back to mine 3 times after major mess ups on his part. I thought, maybe this time it will work. You may just have to get crushed one more time by him in order to believe your intuition. I did and I hope for you not to have to prove to yourself like that. Life is short and there are men out there with much less agony than he puts your mind through.
Ack. I’m hitting a road block here, and I could use some words of wisdom, if anyone has any to share.
Here’s the situation: My ex and I split a few months ago. At the time, he owed me quite a chunk of money. This was all documented and signed by both of us, and he had some time to pay me back. Well, he paid me back half of what he owed me before the deadline, and nothing since then. He has had excuse after excuse – he was trying to get a bank loan, waiting to hear from the bank, etc. Now, he’s laid off temporarily and can’t afford it, and also says he’s having some house problems and has no spare money. I’ve been pulling my hair out trying to avoid taking him to court – trying to negotiate, trying to give him extra time, trying to get him to agree to a payment plan. Nothing has worked. So, I’ve concluded I will have to take him to court – I know that even then I may not be able to collect my money, but without doing this I don’t think he’ll ever pay me. He says he is trying and that he just needs more time, but he has lied to me about so many things so far. On the other hand, he did pay me half, so maybe he’s telling the truth????
So, I’m working on drafting my court papers, and feeling very emotional. Some things are coming up for me that I haven’t felt in a long time. Like, what if he ISN’T really evil, and not a sociopath? What if the problem really was me? What if by taking him to court, I am ruining the chance for us to ever be together and be happy? What if I’m being a big bitch? Basically, he blamed the whole break up (he left me) on me and my not being a good enough partner. Which I know is crazy and wrong, but at the time I felt like he might be right, because I was so messed up. I haven’t felt these questions in quite awhile, so it’s really weird. I guess it’s just because taking him to court feels so final, like there is no going back after that point.
Also, he still has some of my stuff. He has promised several times to bring my stuff to me (he lives in a different town, and it’s a couple of hours drive away.) And he has backed out at the last minute every time. I was out of town when we split up, so unless I wanted to go back to the old house, I wasn’t able to get my things. At the time I was in NO state to go back there and see him.
A few weeks ago we had a friend of ours go to his house, with a Uhaul, and offer to pick up my things. He promised on the phone that he was sending all of my stuff in the Uhaul. Well, when the Uhaul got here, very little of my stuff was in it. My ex, of course, blamed this on our friend. He also claimed he “forgot” that a bunch of stuff was mine, despite the fact that I talked to him while they were loading the truck.
I was planing to go to his house to get the rest of my things (bringing a friend with me, of course.) But, as the day got closer and closer, I was getting more and more frightened. My ex was completely out of my mind shortly before we split up, and I was afraid at that time that he was going to be violent with me at a few points (which he never has with me, but he has a history of being violent with other men.) He has seemed somewhat calmer since then, but I don’t know if this is an act. Also, in the week before I was supposed to go, he was very rude and angry on the phone with me. Even now, even if I DO get all my things AND he’s not a jerk (and those are both BIG if’s), I know that going back to our old town and to our old house would be emotionally devastating for me. So, I cancelled the trip.
I was going to just add the cost of replacing my property to the court case I am starting. As I’m adding up the cost to replace my things, I’m realizing that replacing that stuff will cost more than I thought. Maybe it is worth a trip to his house to at least try and get my things? My gut is telling me not to go, but my brain is saying “It’s a lot of money to walk away from.” Ack. I don’t know what to do.
I think if I add these replacement costs to my court case, he will flip out. Well, I think he will flip out anyway, but I’m sure he will feel like I’m being punitive and vindictive. He is the type of person where NOTHING is ever his fault, ever. I think a judge might wonder why I didn’t go to his house to try and get my stuff. I wonder if “He’s an abusive asshole and I feared for my safety” is enough of an excuse for a judge?
I’ve feared for a while that it was going to come to this point, but I’m still surprised by how much emotion this court case is bringing up for me. I think it’s just acknowledging that this guy really is a jerk, and really is trying to screw me over. And that yes, it is really, finally, truly over. I’ve known that for a long time, but this somehow feels SO final.
So yeah…. if anyone has words of wisdom right now, I’d love to hear them. I know sometimes it’s easier to be wise and objective when I’m not involved myself! lol
Greengirl:
Right now, your situation is described so well by the thought, “I can’t get my pain soothed by the person who caused it.” It’s something we do, because when the P was good, he was very, very good…so when he hurts us, we look to HIM to assuage that pain. Only, the person who hurts you is never the person who can heal you.
The court case is dredging up all this feeling because, as you said, it is a turning point. A “forever end.” No going back once you file those papers, and yet there’s always this little voice inside our head that thinks, “Maybe…someday”. As in “maybe, someday they will be better. We can try again. We’ll make things work out.”
But if you file this case, that little voice is silenced.
Where you’re stuck is plausible deniability. It’s plausible that the friend forgot to get all your things. There’s just enough of truth in that thought to make it possible — but really, likely? You know this P. If he wanted you to actually HAVE all your things, he would have made the effort to put all your things aside and make it clear what was to go on the truck and what wasn’t.
They LIKE TO KEEP YOUR STUFF. Crazy, I know. I read it on the Vaknin forums, over and over again. Experienced it myself, firsthand, several years ago with some movies I wanted returned from him. He still has those movies.
It’s their way of keeping doors open. Your court case is a clear message to him that you are slamming the door closed. It’s also a clear message to you of the same thing, and a little part of us never wants to do that. We love these people – obviously, or our personal histories would not be littered with hair-raising stories of crap we let them do to us!! But we’re learning to love ourselves more.
You filing in court is an example of both those loves pushing up against each other: your love for him and your love for yourself, duking it out, on paper.
It’s hard, but we have to let our love for ourselves triumph. It’s the basis of our self-respect and without it, we’re truly lost. I don’t have a court case, per se, but there are tons of triggers every day that make me want to pick up the phone and call him. I will feel instantly better….but eventually he will be the catalyst to feeling so much worse.
Every time we act in ways that show we love ourselves more than the person who mistreated us, it’s a tiny victory on the road to a healthier, happier life. Your paperwork is a huge victory…and that’s why it’s so conflicting and difficult, I think.
Words of wisdom…always easier to give someone else. Those are mine. 🙂 Take care.
greengirl:
I can totally relate to your intense emotional/physical/sexual connection to your ex. This bond can be very powerful.
However, I believe you have answered your own questions regarding what to do from here. Look at your list. You said it was 8 pages typed! That is a HUGE list. It sounds like he has had an affair, is violent, is not paying you back, is not returning your things, and he lies. You have done the right thing by NC, you are strong and are helping and advising others here.
This man is controlling you in every way possible. You are getting a total mind f _ _ _ . You know that he is bad for you, but have the glimmer of hope that he’ll turn into the man he was or you thought he was. As stated here before many times, that person does not exist, nor did he ever exist.
Be sure you have documented what possessions he has of yours (send him a list via both regular and certified mail). If you can find the energy to collect your things personally, you should do so. I would recommend you go with a friend/uncle/brother, and try to make an appointment with him, but if he is reluctant to schedule a time, go unannounced. Try not to be surprised nor hurt if there is a woman there with him; they interchange victims very quickly. Also you may need to call the authorities to retrieve your things while you are there, so be sure to have the list you have sent him with you. He did not “forget” which things are yours, he has no intention of returning them.
Also, you may check the statute of limitations on the money he owes you. It sounds like he is making no effort whatsoever, not even $50 per month. I believe the repayment of half the loan was just to pacify you temporarily. Sociopaths are full of excuses and lies. They are all about winning, power/control, money, sex, and status (not necessarily in that order). An honest, ethical person would make every effort to return your things and repay you. Obviously he is making no effort in either regard, and continues to play mind games with you regarding the money, your things, and the other woman.
Remember, a repressed rage is at their core, so you need to proceed with extreme caution regarding your personal safety. It sounds like you are fearful of him and his history of violence. Do you want to spend the rest of your life in a fearful, unhappy, and controlled situation, worrying yourself sick about who he is seeing? Of course not. Even the most intense intimate relationship is not worth a life of torment.
The situation with this man will never improve. Your hopes, dreams, and future do not lie with him. There is a much happier place in the world for you…without him.
You said it best, “I already KNOW in my heart he’s a bastard”. You need to watch out for yourself, and stop making excuses for him or questioning yourself. HE is the lie.