Donna Anderson’s important latest post reminds me that one topic which will never be worn out is that of the psychopath’s lies and their impact on others.
This week I want to very briefly introduce yet another take on this inexhaustible topic. Everyone lies, but there’s something else at stake in the case of the psychopath’s lies.
To illustrate: you might say about any regular (non-psychopathic) person, “Things would be better if s/he was to lie less often. Her/his soul or psyche would be healthier as would her relationships.” That’s true. Now try this on for size and notice how wrong it seems: “Things would be better if the psychopath was to lie less often. His soul or psyche would be healthier as would his relationships.”
Weirdly, this is patently not the case. The psychopath will be just as sick/evil no matter how many or how few lies he tells. It’s not a quantitative but a qualitative matter.
It is commonly said that a defining characteristic of psychopaths is that they are pathological liars. This is right if you mean that they are profoundly dishonest and not to be trusted. It does not mean, though, that psychopaths lie a lot. They do lie a lot and those lies cause havoc. But as I hope my illustration above shows, lying less will not make them better people.
So, how does this work? The thing about psychopaths is that even their truths are lies! Or rather, whether or not they happen to be telling the truth or a lie at any particular moment is not what makes them psychopathic. What makes them psychopathic is that they use and destroy people; truth or lies are for them just so many weapons for pursuing their prey.
M.L. Gallagher said a lot when she wrote this:
He is the lie….
From hello to good-bye. I love you to I hate you. You’re beautiful to you’re ugly.
It was all a lie….When friends or my family ask, but what about this, or what about that, I tell them. It was all a lie. There was no truth in him.
If I spend my time trying to figure out fact from fiction, all I am doing is trying to prove I wasn’t so stupid. See, this was true. That’s why I fell in love with him.
Truth is. I fell in love with him because I believed his lie.
When I discovered the truth, I was so enmeshed in his lie, I couldn’t find the truth in me. And so I sank.
“They like to keep your stuff.”
So funny and so true! Many times it is really random stuff too. My crazy ass stepmom has some of my useless crap and will never give it back to me, just because. So she can keep my old single bed comforter and my mini glue gun and my old barbie dolls! I never thought of it that way before, as something that they all do. It makes sense though, not only as a way back in but as a little trophy. “You don’t talk to me anymore, but I still have your plastic Halloween earrings! So there!”
Greengirl,
If he does owe you a lot of money, so much that you can’t let it go, then yes you should go to court to get it back. It will help to keep records of everything. Letting your gut be your guide is a good plan, going there will be putting you at risk for more manipulation and emotional pain. Try to practice no contact as much as possible and communicate through an attorney or if absolutely necessary, through email where you can save his words for documentation.
You can argue that he might be mad at you for filing the case, but who’s to say that he wouldn’t try to get back at you just for not being with him anymore?
It doesn’t matter what he will try to make you believe about what you are doing. YOU know that he owes you a whole lot of money and has your stuff. Trying to get it back is not punitive and vindictive, it is YOUR STUFF and YOUR MONEY. He is being punitive and vindictive by not giving it back to you.
If you do go to court, expect the worst. Do not plan on him not being a jerk, he most likely will be on his worst behavior. Maybe reading the book that Donna just posted about will help you navigate the legal system better and anticipate what kind of crap he will pull in court. Others on this website have gone through court cases with sociopaths so they might be able to give better advice.
Don’t doubt yourself, though. You know what he is and what he is capable of. Don’t let his words have power over you. It is good, in a way, that you know what kind of things he will say when you file the case. Use your knowledge of how he operates to protect yourself.
Ariadne:
According to NPD sites (and really, I’m no expert on this or any other subject, but it comes up over and over again), the N/P/S “interaction” with others consists of soaking-up your good qualities, transferring or projecting his/her bad onto YOU, and waltzing away.
It would stand to reason then that they keep your stuff, because these items are a. annoyance bargaining chips (the plastic earrings example is great) b. representative of a potential “way back in” if they ever want one, and, finally, c. physical manifestations of the idea you are but an object to them, and they “conquered” and own a piece of you forever.
That’s allegedly also why they return to you, months, years, decades down the line: if they see us as objects or parts of them, they feel a part of them has gone missing. So it’s like tracking down a limb or something.
I really don’t know but this makes logical, intuitive sense to me. My mind lately is focused on unconditional love…my own failures in the r’ship. Not to say that he isn’t what I came to believe (although, like Greengirl and many others, find those niggling doubts remain). Think someone once said to me that by trying to shift the blame back to ourselves, by thinking that maybe they aren’t so bad, we’re trying once again to “fix” the outcome. If it’s our fault, and our fault alone, it’s “fixable.” If we see it as being their issues, we lose all sense of hope and/or control.
All of this said, I do believe I failed. In the sense that I allowed the triggers, I reacted poorly, I failed not to create boundaries but to enforce them strongly. I let his nuttiness bring out mine. And since mine came out, there’s no denying it exists and I need work all on my own to be a better partner to someone else who sincerely wants me as one.
Have always believed real love is about seeing the bad and loving someone, anyway. This is the first time the theory was tested and another goal post was seen beyond “seeing the bad and loving anyway” — that is “seeing the bad, loving anyway and not letting it break your own integrity.”
At the end, did it feel like the choice was your life, your sanity or the P’s — to anyone else? It so felt that way to me, like a physical need to RUN for my life.
All we can do with all this muck is try to swim our way out to becoming better individuals, and that’s where my brain is lately. I believe that for everyone here, the story of the P they encountered showed that person to be exactly what they exposed themselves to be, without question, and we have to be self-protective. But from there I guess it’s all about US and how to grow with what we’ve learned.
Peggy
“A repressed rage is at their core…”
Can you elaborate? My youngest kept saying this is what she saw in him. I was dumbfounded at first. Yet she was adamant. How is this repressed rage tied into S’paths? Did I miss a link? 🙂
Greengirl:
You are, I think, trying to “normalize” his thinking–this is where they shine, with the “Mind Fv
some how my post got cut off—you can’t normalize their thinking, they don’t think like we do.
They practice the “plausible deniability” as there MIGHT be a grain of truth in what they say.
If you want your stuff, you will have to go there and get it bac (and yes, take a LARGE MALE FRIEND)
TIP OF THE DAY: YOU CANNOT NORMALIZE THEIR THINKING, THEY ARE NOT NORMAL
If we borrow money we will go sell plasma to at least make token payments on it, they borrow it without any plans to pay it back. In fact they enjoy not paying it back.
Orphan:
I think they only have 2 emotions, real emotions. GLEE when they “WIN” and RAGE when they “loose”.
I think you are right. Also think my brain is rye toast from trying to figure all of this out. Ah, how beloved is a mystery to me….
So, I will try to quit and worry only about fixing my own demons. It’s important we recognize disordered people for what they are, but to me it’s also hugely important I own what I did wrong. And there was plenty of that –none of my reactions involved anyone holding a Glock to my head, and the only way out of this mess is to figure out ME.
Remember that post where when I kept wondering why God brought all this into my life….the words “I want you to heal” came back? Well, for as long as the focus is safely off my own actions, I’ll never heal and will probably subconsciously seek out strange behaving, dramatic men to keep distracting me from whatever it is that I refuse to look at within my own soul. More than anything else I do not want that.
Read somewhere awhile back that the rest of the verse that begins with “God only gives us as much as we can bear” also ends in the line “without making a way of escape.”
Have always believed something beyond us leads us to enlightenment, wants us to grow as individuals, forces us into uncomfortable places in order to achieve that and then leads us to our own discovery of how to save ourselves. Think finding Lovefraud was part of that “leading.” Now I just have to keep following and be brave enough to look inside at all the crap that happened when I was a kid.
Not sure that much bravery exists. Sometimes just thinking about it I start to get all teary-eyed, like right now. It’s like this big wound right in the middle of me that I just keep trying to dance around…and it is the very thing that led me to accepting the unacceptable behaviors from others.
I’m scared of therapy. Keep finding ways to avoid going, rationalizing that life’s too busy (and it is busy, but not TOO) or I can’t afford it. What’s really happening I think is that I’m frightened of what I’ll learn and scared of dropping into the rabbit hole so deep it’ll be impossible to climb back out.
LilOrphan:
I have read about the repressed rage several times, but am copying the link for one in particular. See the section entitled, “Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt”
http://202.6.52.14/articles/334.htm
Sociopaths are intrinsically full of rage (controlling, manipulative, seeing us as chess pieces or objects) and juvenile and or infantile when they don’t get their way (tantrums, acting out). They view everything in life is about THEM. Usually they are good actors (the mask that they wear to fool us), but we get occasional glimpses of the cruelty, ugliness, spitefulness, vengefulness, hatefulness and anger when they 1) leave us or we leave them 2) aren’t getting their way 3) are trying to control our behaviour 4) the glass breaks, i.e., the image of perfection is no longer reflected back to them 5) they are having affairs or engaging in other activities they don’t want us to know about, and we are less valuable to them as their needs are being met elsewhere, 6) they are “caught” doing something, etc.
Many/most Sociopaths have a history of violence…bar fights, conflicts at work, spousal abuse, child abuse, etc. They are like spoiled brats; they think they are the center of the universe. You can sometimes see it in the pictures, the “blankness” or vacancy, and sometimes the hidden anger, and often at least the lack of a smile or any real warmth reflected in their eyes. Go back and look at some of your pictures of him, sometimes that is very telling (although we don’t recognize this at the time). Frequently the camera captures the cold indifference in them.
My sociopath initially hid his anger very well, but started acting out more frequently, seemingly over nothing. He became verbally and emotionally abusive, and potentially physically violent as time went on (there is an escalating pattern or cycle of abuse). He had a history of assault charges, pointing a gun at his sister’s head, hitting and choking his ex-wife, getting into barrrom fights and having fights at work (construction job sites). Of course I did not know all of this at the time (particularly about his ex-wife). And most of these episodes happened in his late teens and early 20s, but he got into a fight at a job site when he was 54! As stated in previous posts, it is my belief that Sociopaths become “better” sociopaths as time goes on, and perhaps more in control of their rage, or better able to conceal it, or become better manipulators. I cannot prove this in any way, it is just my untested theory.
I think we all need to remember that Sociopaths can be very dangerous. Ted Bundy was a sociopath. He was very charming, handsome and bright, and very premeditated in his evil, murderous intentions. Bradley Cunningham was a sociopath (Dead by Sunset by Ann Rule), Scott Peterson was a Sociopath. Sociopaths want to WIN, and WIN AT ALL COSTS. Remember, they have no conscience, guilt or remorse…they don’t care about us when they’re with us, after they leave us, or if they kill us. It wouldn’t bother them any more than squishing an ant on the sidewalk. Sociopaths thing it is their RIGHT to control anyone and everyone, at any cost.
Question to All:
I have read (somewhere) that Sociopaths are often hypochondriacs. My S said he had constant “migraines” and took Excedrin several times a day, in fact was never without them. However, I have been around people with migraines and they are totally debilitating…they cannot be around light, noise, etc., and often throw up as a result of the severity of the headaches. He had NONE of these symptoms, just said he had migraines and popped the Excedrins. So in looking back I have determined he did NOT have migraines.
Furthermore, any time he was sick he was the WORST PATIENT EVER. I mean horrible, sick and grouchy, sick and grouchy, absolutely miserable to be around. I am wondering if the illness reveals the ugliness that is beneath the mask.
Has anyone else experienced this with their S’s?
Orphan,
I totally see where you are coming from. We can’t fix them, and I see that there definitely was something within me that made me fail to stand up and set appropriate boundaries. That is WHAT I CAN FIX. Sure, it is scary, VERY SCARY to look at yourself under a microscope.
Yet, we can and should focus on ourselves and see why we allowed them to stay in our lives long enough to cause us this much pain, or why we have allowed multiple Ps into our lives.
Looking back at my family of origin, I can see the multi-generational “people pleasing” and protection and enabling of the Ps by the women who were given the role of keeping the consequences of the P’s behavior focused not on the P but on the victims and in quieting the victim’s complaints, without ever addressing the P for their behavior.
It is amazing to me how strongly invested we (the women of the family) were in keeping the dysfunctional “status quo” at almost ANY PRICE.
Looking at how my mother (who is not a P but a toxic enabler) became a P-by-proxy (my term) by her actions, taking over the task of “punishing” me because I did not go along with the P’s (my son’s) attempt at control. He passed on to her what he could not do in person because he was in prison. She became his surrogate punish-er. She too, in a way, is both victim and persecutor.
Anytime you change the family dynamics and “opt out” of the assigned role within the family, there will be a shift in the status quo and other members of the family will escalate their behavior to get you back into line with your “assigned role.”
How much dysfunction is involved, and how invested in maintaining the status quo I think will determine just how much pressure they will put on you to resume your role.
Actually, I really pity my mother, because maintaining her role, and assuming the role of substitute P, she has lost everything that was dear to her in the world, and yet she is unable to admit her part in it as it would totally destroy her own self image if she did. Our relationship will never resume, because I can’t allow it to for my own sake. Being that I am her only child, that leaves her destitute of the support and respect that she should have at this time in her life (age 79 in 2 weeks) What a sad way for anyone to spend their declining years, at a time when they should be coming to an acceptance of their lives.
And, yes, Peggy, psychopaths ARE dangerous, not just CAN BE. If they haven’t killed someone it isn’t because they are not capable, but simply that they have not reached such a stage of rage that they felt they “had to” to get what they wanted.
Scott Peterson reminds me very much of my P-son. I can see my arrogant son doing just what Scott did. BTW I read a book by Laci’s mother. Prior to the murder the family didn’t “see” the signs of P in him, but after the murder, he behaved just “sooooo P” (though she didn’t call it that) that any of us would have immediately recognized him as a P. I “knew” within a couple of days after Laci’s death that it was Scott, just from the things I saw on the news. I have a feeling the cops did too, it just took them a while to get the “goods” on him.
His excuses and stories were so “P” that they just didn’t “wash”—you’d think as smart as he was he would have come up with some better ones. My guess is that he went in to a rage and killed her without advance planning and had to make up some stories on the spot. Or that he had planned another way to do it, but didn’t have all his ducks in a row before he actually did kill her.
Peggy, Dr. Hare goes along with your theory that they “mellow out” some as they get middle aged or older, and I think like you that they just become “better at it” and less openly violent.
My son had difficulty hiding behind his mask when he became frustrated and would let it drop–the last time I saw him in person he did that—and it shocked me so bad, and I recalled Hare’s saying that they say incongruous things almost in the same breath—and when he went into the rage, bragging about the murder he committed, maybe trying to scare me—and then went right back to “But Mooooommmm, what would Jesus do?” I could have been knocked over with a feather, it was right out of Hare’s book. Text book case.
That shocked me out of DENIAL. I just wish I had had sense enough not to let him see my “cards” though, or to know I SAW through him. It only provoked him more.
Yes, exactly it! It doesn’t matter who I was with, even though he was a total psycho, I didn’t have to respond that way. And in order to find a decent partner, those parts of me have to be fixed. You can only go in three different directions when dealing with a P or S: towards being like them or away from being like them or charging neutral.
God knows I don’t want to become like him or charge neutral to people like that. Both are mistakes in reacting to the craziness. I want to be centered and focused enough to say goodbye early on when a person starts exhibiting those traits. And the way to become capable of that resides inside, only.
In a normal relationship, with a normal, healthy, non-addicted, non-disordered person, you can find normal reasons for why things ended or went the way they did. With someone like him, the end is always abrupt and non-existent, because they never give you closure and they always return AND they always act bizarre about halfway through. Seems to be right when they think that you are “theirs” – like when he asked about marriage and three days later said all gleefully that he “got me to believe him.”
No fights. Several months into it. Normal people don’t admit they love you and then enjoy twisting your head around three days later. They don’t talk about marrying you unless they’re sure. Only really twisted people do that and do it for the sole purpose of ENJOYING it. He got off on it.
But the flip is that normal people don’t accept that crap from other people, too. Right then, in my kitchen, whether I cared for him or not, I should’ve shown him the door. Or at any number of other points, prior and after.
Fixing me means being the person who not only knows that (I did know it, even then) but jumps on the opportunity to do so.
That’s the point to strive for in our healing. That’s a place they’ll never even visit in their own sad, pathetic lives, let alone live.