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By | November 20, 2008 233 Comments

How a deficits disorder can cause so much grief and pain

Sociopathy, many experts agree, is a deficits disorder.

The sociopath, in this view, is missing something—things like empathy, remorse, and basic respect for the boundaries of others.

When you think of a deficit—something missing—you don’t necessarily think dire consequences.

You may think, instead, things like less”¦incomplete”¦limited.

For instance, the idea of intellectual deficit might spark the association, mental retardation.

Instead of invoking fear, this tends to elicit our understanding, even empathy. The mentally retarded individual is missing something that most of us have—a normal intellectual capacity. You think, this is unfortunate, for that person.

When you think of kids with attentional deficits, you’re likely to bring some extra patience toward the challenges their condition presents. Your accomodation is based on recognizing their behaviors as originating in a deficit.

When dealing with the Asperger’s Syndrome population, you understand their social inaptitude as arising from a neurologic difference. And so in responding to the Asperger individual’s peculiarities, you allow that he or she, on a social level, is operating with less than a full deck.

In general, when speaking of disorders of deficits, we tend, or at least try, not to take the consequences arising from the disorder personally. We recognize the deficit as something the person doesn’t ask for and, at best, struggles to control.

This isn’t to deny, or minimize, the impact of the individual’s difficult behaviors. But in locating that impact in a deficit, we can potentially experience it as less personally injurious.

Sociopathy, however, presents an interesting challenge in this regard. Research increasingly implicates brain differences in sociopaths. Sociopaths, we are learning, fail to experience and process certain emotions like nonsociopaths. Their capacity to learn from aversive consequences appears to be compromised. And they show evidence of certain enduring forms of attentional pathology, involving defective inhibitory and impulse control.

The sociopath, in a word, appears to be a psychologically handicapped individual.

Yet it’s hard to empathize with the sociopath, who himself lacks empathy. And how not to personalize his actions—actions that can cause so much personal pain? And how not to personalize that pain, even if it results from the sociopath’s deficits?

It brings to mind the concept of processing a vicious dog attack. The dog is vicious. It attacks you. It knows it is attacking you. We can even imagine that it knows, on a primitive level, that it is wounding you. The dog needs to be leashed, kept away from others. Improperly secured, it sees you walking down the street, primitively registering your vulnerability. And then it attacks, remorselessly.

While it’s true that we can ascribe to sociopaths (and not dogs) a capacity to evaluate their prey and plot their means of attack, we run the risk, I think, of giving the sociopath too much credit.

After all, if the sociopath’s deficits destine him to interpersonal exploitation, does his exploitation become personal simply by virtue of his capacity to plot it?

Sure, the vicious dog, unlike the sociopath, may lack calculation and plotting skills. But for all intents and purposes, unless locked-up, both will inevitably attack and/or violate. The vicious dog, if it doesn’t attack you, will attack someone else. And if you are lucky enough to escape the sociopath’s transgressions, someone else won’t be.

From this perspective, the sociopath’s deficits will take forms of interpersonal exploitation just as surely as the child with ADHD can be expected to obnoxiously disrupt others, heedless of their boundaries.

From this angle, it’s possible to construe the sociopath’s aggression as tantamount to a hurricane’s damaging your house. The wreckage may be great, and traumatic; but it is the wreckage, ultimately, of an irrepressibly violent, impersonal force.

Arguably, this defines the sociopath: an irrepressibly [interpersonally] violent, impersonal force.

We hope, through our awareness, prudence, and luck, never to suffer its destructiveness. But if less lucky, we can remind ourselves that the sociopath, in the final analysis, is about as pointless, worthless, and arbitrary as a natural disaster.

(My use of “he” in this article was for consistency’s sake, not to suggest that men have a patent on sociopathy. This article is copyrighted (c) 2008 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)


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Elizabeth Conley

I’ve got a huge quarrel with the “culture of dysfuntionalism”. It is extremely tiresome to see every deviation from dead center of the normal curve labeled as a disease. All the so called “Asperger’s Syndrome” individuals I’ve ever been made aware of have simply been smarter and more individualistic in thought than average. This is a disease? I think not! God help us all if brains and individuality become marginalized. We used to treat the absent minded professor with a mixture of appreciation for his gifts and good humor. Now we look down our noses at him with supercilious pity. This is not a wise choice.

Sociopaths, Psychopaths and Narcissists may have an empathy deficit, but they have a charisma surplus. They are able to lead whole herds of average people around by the noses, and make them enjoy the degradation 99.9% of the time. Deficient? I think not.

By the current definition of deficient, we all qualify or none of us do. Who’s more handicapped, the Narcissist leading the herd or the herd? How about the “asperger’s syndrome patients” watching the herd’s antics in puzzled bemusement? What if none of the people are deficient? What if the group is simply diverse?

We are social animals. We have substantial deviations from the norm within our population because our thrivancy depends on the mutually beneficial interactions of individuals with different strengths. (Boy are we making a bad choice when we marginalize people with “Asperger’s” and “ADHD”. These are some of the most capable people we have, and we need to learn to appreciate what they offer.)

Criminal behaviors should be prosecuted, unhealthy relationships should be avoided, and everybody should work hard to develop their strengths and correcting their shortcomings. What energy that’s left over is well spent encouraging and helping others and building a good life. This is how things work in a “culture of personal responsibility”, and work they do. This is how individuals, organizations and cultures maximize their potential.

Labels that identify capable people as deficient should be used very, very sparingly. Each careless label projects characteristics onto the subject that cannot possibly be accurate, leading to considerable confusion in relationships and harm to the individual. This is not good for the community as a whole. In the end, it’s a mutual appreciation of our strengths and a willingness to work on our shortcomings that makes us well.

I’ve dealt with sociopaths and narcissists, and I’m pretty sure I’ve dealt with a psychopath too, although I decided not to hang around long enough to confirm my suspicions with respect to the P. No two ways about it, these folks were exploitive. They were WRONG to treat me the way they did. Not just pitiably sick, but culpably wrong. That being said, I was a doormat and a patsy. I should not have put up with these people for as long as I did. I own that half of the problem, and I’ll be darned if I’m willing to scapegoat them for my errors as well as theirs. If I do, I won’t stand a snowball’s chance in H#ll of doing better the next time around.

I don’t believe they have an empathy defiict- I believe they choose to be callous and cruel. If they did have such a deficit, they wouldn’t understand how/why the “pity ploy”, a hallmark of psychopaths, works.

An aside- my psycho claimed to have aspies and adhd at different times- both ploys for pity. And at the same time exhibited loads of charm, sex appeal and even admitted his manipulativeness.

I have blogged on the diff between aspies and psychos.
http://holywatersalt.blogspot.com/

Wini

Elizabeth Conley: What you wrote is thought provoking. May I add, that this idiotic competition theory engrained so deep in our society’s fabric needs to stop. Our country is past it’s infancy stage where competition was necessary to build a new world. Now it’s built, and collapsing at the same time due to the old ideas of competition. Compassion, respect and individual creativity(s) should be the new norms set forth in society as we rebuild our infrastructure and get away from the negativities of the old competitive spirit is the only way to go.

Peace.

Indigoblue

This is Hardly worth a debate anymore!

These people are imoral non-everything! In the old days these people where disposed of because that is what needed to be done with them! They detract from the mutual good of the group or Society! It sounds cruel but hey life is not fair! I could have been a perfect angel and be run over by a truck ! Oooops sorrry about your luck!

Having said that I will Totally Blow your minds with I want them to be Healed! but that is not a possibility at this time In our existance! Only God heals these things! LOVE JJ

Wini-

It’s so true we are not called to win at all, and in reality what is “winning” a pressed board plaque, a new counter top, a better car… and those I see as WINNERS….they forfeited what’s important long ago for the ephermal.

Indigoblue

WINIBAGO YOU HAVE MALE

Wini

holywatersalt: Yes, they have been conditioning themselves from a very young age to be what they turned out as adults to be. Making said decisions at such a tender age, not realizing their way, was not the way to go.

Hey, what can you expect when they thought more than their elders that warned and reprimanded them along the way.

If you don’t use compassion, you loose it. If you don’t use anything, you loose it.

What I mean by loosing it is actually, going dormant.

Peace.

Elizabeth Conley

Dear Wini,

I’m one of those odd birds referred to as a “Libertarian”. This doesn’t mean I believe the same things the other Libertarians do, it just means we’ve all agreed that we don’t have to agree on very many things in order to coexist peacefully.

So I’m wary of a movement to reject competition and idealize compassion. If someone is willing to assume the risk of going into business for himself in order to produce a better product, is he a vilely competitive person out to win at the expense of others? I don’t think so. I suspect you don’t either. It was the idealization of cooperation over competition that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union’s economy. Competition is healthy, at least within a legal system intended to protect the rights of all.

Compassion is often taken to far. Compassionate people are often unconsciously arrogant, and act with contempt for the rights of others. They are so sure they know what is best for the unwashed masses that they trample individual rights in the process of “helping” people. It is very compassionate to let career criminals go free to re-offend, but it can only be done at great risk to the rest of us. It is very compassionate to tax at a high rate in order to rebuild the beach front condominiums of hurricane “victims”, but it’s hardly fair to those who build their homes in sensible places. Compassion, like competition, can be taken too far.

For better or worse, I advocate a culture that respects human rights and holds individuals responsible for choosing to violate the rights of others. It doesn’t make for a perfect society, but it does foster health in an imperfect one.

Indigoblue

Elisabeth
We bankrupted the soviets by forceing them to try to compeet on a Global scale Star wars or their suspecion that we could survive a first strike! Hello we Bluffed and they took the Hook so we won! after all we are the Psycopath nation what have we to lose ?? nothing

Elizabeth Conley

PS – I was once party to a discussion among friends as to whether it would be a good idea to put up a political candidate for a city office. After a feasibility study, we concluded that we had only one really big problem with the plan. None of us wanted to be the candidate. We discussed our various shortcomings for the position of candidate, and why each of us was both ill suited and unwilling. Finally we agreed that we’d need a Narcissist, Sociopath or Psychopath for the job. We’d have to find the subject, groom the subject and find a way to set boundaries for him/her. This seemed rather unpleasant and unethical to us, so we abandoned the plan.

From what I’ve observed, I must conclude that many other committes have come to the same conclusion about the qualifications of a candidate. Unlike us, they decided they were willing to follow through with an S, P or N candidate. Mostly N I think, a few Ps. An S would be the hardest to handle without constant risk.

When push to shove, I don’t think it’s just that Ns, Ps and Ss want to be the apparent heads of various movements and organizations. It may also be that very few other people earnestly desire to make the sacrifices necessary to be in the limelight.

Elizabeth Conley

Indigoblue,

If you want to consider our nation to be psychopathic, you go right ahead. Personally, I think we’re more like a big, dumb, exuberant, wet golden retriever bouncing through the nudist colony summer picnic, but what do I know?!

Perhaps the effect is the same, although I maintain the intent is different.

Wini

Dear Elizabeth Conley: One, we can never compete. There is no such animal … only that it exists down on earth. God made us all perfect. Each of us are perfect. It’s man that judges what that perfection is by the so-called competition beast that roars it’s ugly head in our competitive society.

I try not to get pulled in to all the competition that is shoved down our throats in life. Not that I couldn’t be competitive, but I stepped back and saw the bigger picture of what the reason to compete really was. I’m naturally gifted in any sports … so I just played sports for the fun of it. Not that it meant anything to me to win or loose.

Same thing at work … the bosses were always putting the carrots in front of employees to kill each other over winning the prize. It was ridiculous, it made people into animals instead of being creative. They lie, cheat, steal to win at any cost… then they could NOT produce when they got a promotion, so they kept the competitive title and bonus of more money and just shoved the responsibility of getting the work done back on me … who would rather be creative and productive and not be competitive IDIOT.

And you want to know how anti-social personalities are made … look at our society in general with all this competitive bullshit of having to win and who cares about ethics, morals, righteous qualities and the rest that comes along … just winning and getting what you want is the name of the game and the winners have more money, more toys, more titles …more wanting the superficialities in life to make them a competent person in life and forget about qualities of what really matters life.

So Elizabeth … just goes to prove, there are many more sides to looking at anything… compromise … a little of this and a little of this.

Peace.

tryingtorecover

I’m going to a different topic to post. Do you remember what communism did to people? People risked their lives to escape. Sound familiar? We’re the psychopath nation?

Elizabeth Conley

” just goes to prove, there are many more sides to looking at anything” compromise ” a little of this and a little of this.”

… and so we can move forward in accord, appreciating everyone’s point of view and respecting the rights of all.

God Bless You Wini. It’s always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you.

gillian

Steve Becker,

Excellent article. Thanks. I completely agree that sociopaths lack empathy, remorse, and respect for the rights of others. Maybe in some way they do have empathy, the argument that they must in order to know that they are hurting others and enjoy inflicting that pain is interesting. Personally I don’t know how much of that is emotional empathy. Or intellectual understanding upon which they gain the pleasure in the taking, the using, the manipulation, the power.

They may have some good qualities. I suppose even Ted Bundy did. However imo they are evil, absolute predators in our society, often so skilled at deception that people are unable to identify them in time to prevent the most heinous damage. I wouldn’t want one in a company I worked for. And I have worked with them before. Perhaps they do have some management skills, but in my experience, never without a knife hidden up their sleeve.

No thanks.

Elizabeth Conley

tryingtorecover,

I remember all too well. All of our nations are flawed. Studying the genocides within the old Soviet regime and Red China made my blood run cold. What we did to the American Indians was also evil. What’s going on is the “Democratic People’s Republic” of Korea is foul too.

The very name of the DPRK shows how far a Sociopathic regime will take its disinformation (lying).

Wini

It’s not me Elizabeth, I try to live my life the way the Bible tells me. God is the one you should thank.

Peace.

Wini

Elizabeth Conley: That’s because people don’t realize that God has already given us everything we need (each and every one of us)… so some people get frighten, imagine that others are the enemies that they have to eliminate due to lack of abundance of anything in the world. There is no lack of abundance of anything. It’s all perception again. If you think negatively that there is a lack of abundance, then your actions will follow through with that mindset. Same goes with the positive mindset knowing their is enough of abundance for everyone.

Oh heck, I just wished everyone would read their Bible and stop listening to their own insecure, stupidity, selfishness and greed.

Peace.

Wini

Oh, and Elizabeth Conley: Competition is just a fancy word to hide behind the greedy intentions of why someone/anyone insists that you must compete.

Teachers start the competition early in a person’s life … go compete with your classmates so as to give your teacher a break in having to instruct you personally, on a one on one level.

High school is the same, you have to learn this so you can compete in the world.

College is the worst … forget what you’re learning, compete and cheat to get those grades that you so richly paid for.

Work … competition at it’s highest grade of showing management how they can yank your greedy strings.

And you wonder why our country is going belly up all at once. Big difference in learning to perfect how to be a greedy prick out in the world … but show me common sense, someone who can step back and see the bigger picture than the greedy myopic picture, show me who is humble and can create?

Peace.

Elizabeth Conley

Dear Wini,

I understand that we have a system within the management of most corporations, schools and other organizations that seems competitive in an adversarial way. It seems like the best way to get ahead is to be cut-throat. There seems to be a system of winners and losers, where the vast majority of people must be losers. This is unhealthy, in that it undermines cooperation. Usually people within an organization are happier and more productive when the cooperate. Cooperation is a very good thing.

Independence and choosing to do things to the best of one’s ability is good too. If you have a good invention or a great idea, it’s only natural to want to see your idea come to fruition. Making your dreams real is a creative process.

Wouldn’t it be awful if you couldn’t express your creativity for fear of being seen as competitive? Wouldn’t it be awful if “competitive” became the “new evil”? What if excelling at anything was seen as bad? What if “the nail that sticks up gets hammered flat” applied to anyone who had a good idea they wanted to try?

This is what I mean when I say that it is dangerous to villainize competition. Rather than consider competition innately bad, we should recognize those situations where cooperation is good.

How do we foster cooperation between employees? (Some corporations use 360 degree evaluations to achieve this. It seems to work well.) Is cooperation a good thing between students? Some educators think so. They call it cooperative learning, and in most cases all students benefit. Personally, I think competitive grading systems are unwise. It is better to establish the bar between pass and fail, and leave it at that. This does not mean that mapping student performance on the normal curve is not an effective way of discerning whether your teaching and standards have been effective or not. Students do not have to no their relative standing. That statistic can be used privately by the teacher in order to adjust instruction and evaluation methods.

If we punish people for striving, or for accidentally doing better than average, that’s a very cruel form of tyranny. I cannot see how that could benefit a culture. Let’s instead reward cooperation where it is appropriate and accept apparent competition where it is inevitable. Yes, some ideas will work better than others, some businesses will succeed while others will fail, and some students will do better than the rest. Ironically, some businesses will succeed because their employees are more cooperative with one another, or their partnerships with other businesses are more effective. Some ideas will be better than others because they are collaborative efforts, and some of the students will excel because they have benefited from the cooperative learning model. Would we punish cooperation by calling it a form of unfair competition against less cooperative entities?

No, I’m not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. All libertarians are this annoying!

Elizabeth Conley

PS Wini,

I am annoying you, aren’t I? I apologize. To make up for my annoying behavior, I won’t post another word on this topic. You can have the last word!

In Christ,

Elizabeth

Wini

Elizabeth: I can’t answer everything you wrote in one sitting without thinking about it fully.

All I know is that if you do the work, you learn the lessons needed to do that particular work. You then gained confidence and wisdom of how to do said work to move on to the next set of instructions to do the new work and learn the new lessons.

Step by righteous step up the ladder we go (old school of how our country once was).

But, not so in today’s society for the last 40-50 years … it’s lying, scheming, conniving that has been applauded and who cares that the idiots who did this didn’t learn a thing to be in the positions they held. They looked good, they earned a high salary, their houses are bigger, their cars, boats, planes are nicer. Yet, what do any of these folks learn as they scurried up the ladder … they learned how to smoke screen if anyone figures them out, they learned how to ax those that were competent in their organization so as not to be out shined and shown to everyone that they don’t do anything but cause chaos to flourish..they learn to continue to fight to kill the livlyhoods of anyone close to them … still not producing, not being creative, not moving the company forward, not being beneficial in any way, shape or form to the company except for their own selfish greed of what that company can do for them.

And everyone is shocked over the 700 plus trillion dollar bailouts for the banking industry and the car industry and then what other big egos companies are next?

I say, fire those idiot big ego CEOs or demote them to the bottom wrung of the corporations so they can keep a job and learn each level of the corporation from the bottom up step by step (like our forefathers did). Promote from within those individuals that are creative and were kept down in their careers, get rid of the huge salaries and perks as the carrots to hold in front of greedy people’s faces … just give the real workers in those companies a chance to take the lead and get their companies out of the mess that the big egos with their greed got them into the dumps.

The real righteous folks in those companies can make a comeback … just give the real people the chance to do their stuff.

Peace.

Wini

Elizabeth Conley: You aren’t annoying me. I love a good debate … keeps my mental juices flowing.

Peace … you can write anything you want, I love reading it. It’s called putting all the thoughts into the basket and trying each to see what works.

Elizabeth Conley

Good. I think you’re really cool. I’d be crushed if I annoyed you so badly you shunned me in frustration. I’ve gotta go check my little knuckle heads’ work now. They’ve been on their own program quite a bit today. That can be both good and bad!

Elizabeth Conley

… and like you, I coulda cheerfully drawn and quartered some of those Psychopathic CEOs during the banking “crisis”. Pulease!!! I don’t know where to start!

Wini

Elizabeth Conley: Yup, doing the work and learning the lessons is reward in itself. Leave the carrots to the rabbits in the world (LOL).

We can make them T-shirts with the big lettering of F-O-O-L-S and send them so they can sell them curb side to make a living.

Unbelievable … that so many people believe in the it’s so shiny, it’s so pretty, it’s so handsome … instead of plain old common sense rule of thumb.

Funny, I was just send a joke about the obituary of Common Sense the other day … if I find it, I’ll will share it with LF bloggers … makes you open your eyes.

Peace. I’m outta here.

Indigoblue

I still have it

Indigoblue

Most Golden Retrievers arnt paddling around the pond on Nuclear Aircraft Carriers , And BOOMERS ( nuclear trident subs ) . USA has both a Big Mouth and a BIGGER Stick ! LOVE JJ

lostingrief

how do we know that they don’t change? i can’t help but feel that my ex is being really nice to his new, young, beautiful, stylish, rich, pregnant (all the things that i wasn’t to him) girlfriend.
why would he be mean to her? she’s everything he was wanting, regardless of our 20 yr history.

Ox Drover

Dear LIG,

Sugar, he will be nice to her FOR A WHILE, but then she will some way “disappoint” him and he will start to see she isn’t the perfect person for him, and he will go out and seek another….they don’t change. It is always the same, “idolize, devalue and discard” just like a dance, step one, twirl, step two, twirl and step three.

As far as your “I can’t help but believe that…..” YOU CAN HELP BUT BELIEVE THAT, because it is not true…BELIEVE THE TRUTH INSTEAD OF THE FICTION THAT HE WILL HAVE A “HAPPY EVER AFTER” WITH HER, BECAUSE THEY WILL NOT HAVE A “HAPPY EVER AFTER” ANY MORE THAN HE DID WITH YOU. IT ISN’T IN THE P’S ABILITY TO HAVE A HAPPY EVER AFTER WITH ANYONE.

Dear Elizabeth, I love your posting and I agree with you about most things. which means I think you are REALLY SMART! LOL

Most people in this world, in one way or another, I think, “look out for number one”—to one extent or another, the Ps just take that to a new level, and we (victims) don’t take it to enough of a level. There needs to be a balance of being “helpful” to our fellow men and taking care of ourselves. Unfortunately the BALANCE is skewed in the Ps to the point that they actually enjoy producing suffering and the balance in us is the other way, we enjoy giving til it hurts, hoping for a return of love, which from them we NEVER GET.

Having a balanced life is I think our best goal. Trusting, but not being an idiiot and trusting everyone without some caution, or “giving them another chance” out of pity or whatever “reason” we can come up with. On the other hand if you trust no one, you can’t get close enough to another person to experience love. Maybe because the P “uses” others and knows he does that, he figures everyone else is a user as well, so he can’t trust at all, and therefore can’t love. Maybe it is a “trust deficit”—who knows? I don’t, just an idea that hit me as I typed.

I think one thing that made my P son so angry at me was he had me “figured out” an thought he could predict my behavior, and thought he could predict behavior in the rest of the family too—for example, he advised the Trojan Horse P in a letter to “don’t worry if you piss mom off, Grandma will always take my side against mom.”

He also thought that he could predict the TH-P’s behavior and the DIL’s and his brother C’s as well, but obviously he couldn’t, and that was what blew the whole thing wide open in the end and lead to our escape and the failure of their plot.

It never occured to those that knew me the best that I would ever realize I was being targeted for murder and run like a rabbit and hide. My son thought that I would stand and fight (and lose) never realizing that he intended to have me killed.

My mother never realized that I would ever “divorce” her no matter what she did to me. I never had in the past, and “the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior” but I am learning to use new techniques—this OLD DOG IS LEARNING NEW TRICKS. LOL

Even though the psychopath may genetically be “missing” something,” the ADHD child who is genetically missing some impulse control can LEARN IT, and the child with inherited anxiety disorders or social anxiety disorder, can LEARN TO BE LESS ANXIOUS WITH PRACTICE. The child with no eye sight can learn to compensate, the child born with one leg can learn to compensate. The deaf child can still learn to communicate. The psychopath can learn new behaviors and can learn right and wrong, but the choose not to.

My ADHD son has learned impulse control and is a fully functioning adult. I can swear he wasn’t born with any impulse control though. LOL

I believe that though Ps have some genetic deficits that at the same time they CAN over come them, but choose not to. Just like an alcoholic CAN stop drinking, but most choose NOT to.

They are not without the ability to learn. They are generally able to refine their techniques to be better crooks, so I think the COULD refine their behaviors in order to at least live and work in society. Ted Bundy was NOT UNABLE to stop murdering, he chose to murder. He hid his crimes because he knew there would be consequences he wanted to avoid.

Ted was very arrogant and did get away with many of his crimes, and even escaped from custody twice. His own arrogance though brought him down in the end.

lostingrief

geez, ox. i was waiting for the skillet to boink me but good!

Ox Drover

Well, darling LIG, you DESERVED two BOINKS, but since my son C is home now and I am in such a GOOD MOOD I decided to be a lot nicer and just give you a good “tongue” lashing, or is it a “finger lashing” LOL

But whatever it takes, you get out of that twisted thinking mode and get back to REALITY you are as powerful as you THINK YOU ARE! So positive thinking is the operative word. Write down 500 times and turn it in by morning “HE WILL NOT CHANGE FOR HER OR ANYONE ELSE.” ((((HUGS)))))

Hi Wini & Liz:
Regarding competition, I guess you have to look at the motivation. If a person is competing just to be better than someone else..then envy is involved. If the motivation is to get more money, then greed is involved. If a person is just

I don’t like the big wigs in the corporate world who have more than enough money than what they know what to do with. Does someone really need millions to live? I believe we should all live by our means and any extra money should be given away. Those people who hoard their dollars while people in the world are starving really make me said. I say hoorah for Bill Gates and Warren Buffet!

Indigoblue

If I only Had a BRAIN? BEAM ME UP SCOTTY There is no intelegent life here! We are off to see the Wizard ! The wonderfull Wizard of OZ! Can ToTo come too? TOTO was the only sane member of the pose! Sorry Henry Toto was’nt a Weiner dog :)~ Hahahaaha If I only had a Weiner? A big one! :)~

Wini

Iwonder: It depends if someone is obsessed with money, Obviously the people around me during my painful crisis … that’s all they cared about … what was in it for them! Making deals behind my back, smiling to my face, pretending to be representing me … and making deals for themselves, career moves, making money off of my pain … GREED, GREED, GREED … yes, the American way of life today.

Wini

Iwonder: Those CEOs are blinded by their greed. Does anyone know any? I do. All common sense goes out the doors with them. It’s amazing. They only thing they care about is … what’s in it for them? What can the company do for them, for their portfolio, what bennies and perks can they get, their retirement package … then they give the company some proven work from years gone by …. which was completed already and that they resurrect … they are all surrounded by other upper managers that are just as blind and just as greedy … It’s an unending saga with the likes of them … all fools blinded by their greed.

They will lay off 1000s of employees to save a CEOs perks and retirement packages … and none of these folks care nor notice that 1000s of people were downsized and out the door.

All I can say is thank God for small favors that most of them have drivers to cart their butts around … I’d hate to be in traffic with an clueless airhead like them behind the wheel of a vehicle.

Did anyone notice how they made it to DC begging for a handout? Corporate jets.

Good grief Charlie Brown.

It reminded me of when the courts used to call us (we worked next door to the court) and tell us they cleared their docket for the day … the gang members are coming in … so be on your guard.

Gang members used to be in court … standing in front of a judge, for say, selling illegal narcotics.

They don’t have a real job that shows an income, yet they are standing in front of a judge with $100 dollar sneakers on, designer clothes, designer hair styles, gold dripping off of every finger, around their necks, on their ears … they smile and they’ve got caps made of gold … daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. They are wearing the wealth of their illegal activities … arrogant as well as clueless.

Peace.

Peace.

Elizabeth Conley

Wini,

Did you work for a law firm? This scenario sound way too familiar.

I know someone who works for a law firm downtown. The Freaks of Nature who slither around the law firm are blatant in their disregard for the law, rights of others and societal norms. At least one lawyer at the firm is abusive, (No way to tell from my perspective whether S, P or N) and the employees function together very badly. There is adultery, slander, backbiting, divisiveness, targeting, gaslighting, and a pervasive niceness scabbing over the whole festering bundle of puss. The niceness is very thin. The receptionist specializes in nasty-nice. (the art of technically polite, saccharine sweet hostility)

She does real well there, which makes her suspect in my mind. She reminds me of a remora, because she seems to be able to function symbioticly with sharks. She fascinates me, but I sense it’s not safe to drop my guard.

If you worked in someplace like that, it’s a miracle you’re not locked up in a padded room and wearing a “love me tender jacket”!

Elizabeth Conley

About the human remora:

I’ve been thinking a lot about how some people can rub along with Ss, Ns or Ps without becoming targets. Maybe I’ve developed a working theory.

A selfish affect may be very helpful. The more careless, lazy, rude and unreliable an individual is, the more likely the S or N will be to overlook that person as a potential target. Ss and Ns are much nicer to jerks than they are to goodie-two-shoes. Therefor, occasionally treating the S or N like dirt early in the relationship might be helpful. Of course, you’d have to recognize the S or N early enough to make this selfish affect impact their sensibilities in time to make the difference.

Anyway, I think that’s how human remoras survive and thrive while swimming with sharks.

Observations – opinions? Anyone?

Indigoblue

Why are People Malining animals? The Human animal is in itself The most Maligant Creature to ever walk the Planet!
Seems Freedom of Choice comes at an Imeasurable Price ! LOVE JJ

Indigoblue

Would that Firm be Blogin + Blogin :)~

Indigoblue

Would that Firm be Blogin + Blogin :)~

Wini

Elizabeth Conley: No I didn’t work for a law firm (LOL).

I worked next to 2 court houses … in the city.

Oh, and an answer to your thoughts about insulting an anti-social at the beginning might have you off their hit list. Not true in my case. My boss that went after me, waited almost 20 years to get me for what transpired between us in 1981.

1981 I was a union steward for an employee that worked for her (my boss). She wasn’t my boss at the time … I worked in another location in our place of business.

Long story short … I represented a black woman who was forced by this boss to sign in and out when she left the floor to get a drink of water or go to the bathroom … but, she never forced her white subordinates to do the same.

This woman filed a grievance and I was the union steward that represented her at the step one hearing.

Well, not only did I have to tell this boss that congress signed the bill freeing slavery under President Lincoln … dot, dot, dot … and you can guess her reaction at this meeting.

From that meeting on every time that boss saw me or any of her underhanded supervisors saw me in the hall way, they would actually face the walls of the hallways … like they were invisible. It was the strangest behavior I had ever seen, grown adults acting like immature children.

Anyway, years later, these lower level bosses took over our building … forced the “real” bosses out into retirement or transferring … and who do you think insisted that I now come work for her? You got it. Yours truly …

You know some of the trumped up charges against me was that I was prejudice about minorities, gays, men, female co-workers etc. Anything they thought could stick, she tried to stick it on me.

Funny … the woman I represented in that 1981 grievance became one of my best friends in there and was still working for this boss for all those years … as soon as that boss started on destroying me, this co-worker jumped ship and left our place of employment all together. To this day, she is still one of my best friends and told me that if she ever had to come back to the state we were in to testify on my behalf she would.

Why did she leave our place of employment? She knew when our boss finally went after me, there was no hope what-so-ever that our boss would ever find her heart.

Peace.

peterd

Sociopaths are not only lacking the part of normal personality – concience, their personality have an extra component that normal personalities do not develop and do not need – ability to wage mental wars against other people.

When was the last time you planned a psychological attack on somebody close to you in order to get something?
When was the last time you consciously planned on how to weaken such person thought process so that you can to get some profit from it ? Never, right… ?

If you were given a task to seriously destabilize another person intelectual abilities so that this person starts doubting his/her sanity than you probably would not know where to start. Why doing such a stupid thing anyway, right ? Only sociopaths learn know how to do it – normal people do not develop such abilities because they are thankfully not needed in a normal human interaction.

I used to be a math tutor for many years and I developed a great deal of insight into the thought process of my students. I could synchronize my own intelect with the thought process of the student solving a math problem – and by simulating his way of thinking I could quickly pinpoint and repair weak points of the
students problem solving abilities. I was a really good teacher and my results confirmed that.

Upon having contact with sociopaths I realized that If I ever wanted to act like one a few things were required. First I would have to synchronize my way of thinking to observe thought process of another person – just as I did with my students – this is not easy and it takes patience to learn. I think average people have no need to learn this skill, only teachers (and possibly sociopaths learn it by experience)

Second – I would have to wait until the other person came to a confusion – a crossroads in his/her thinking and right than I would have to conciously mislead them pretending to believe what I knew to be nonsense. It would be like teaching somebody in reverse – actually diassembling their healthy thougth process instead of improving it – brainwashing.

If sociopaths would do that all conciously – it would take enormous amount of work, and they really would be sort of evil geniuses. The understanding of other person thought process while the person is solving a problem is something I was able to do only after countless hours of interaction in a period of a few years. In reality sociopaths are not “geniuses”, they rely on life experience and they observe what we tend to neglect – automatic reactions in people. There is no “magic” involved – all causes and effects of their behaviour can be deduced by logical thinking. I am all for demystyfying sociopathic behavior – from the point of view of a math teacher there are some basic calculations involved – but nothing we could not understant.

P.

bird

Speaking of deficits, I really need to discuss the SPEECH PATTERNS of sociopaths. My sociopaths speech and writings are really hard to understand. When I first met him, I thought the way he spoke was mystical and intriguing. I had to read what he wrote up to 5 times to “get it.” It was so out there and cool. When the mask started slipping, the speech patterns became dichotomies that I found hard follow. Now when I see his speech pattern, I see it is an incomprehensible mumble jumble. It is scattered and left for interpretation. I think this is part of the brain deficit. Did anyone else experience strange speech patterns?

Ox Drover

Bird,

They contradict themselves, as if they can’t remember the meanings to words connected to “emotions”—they can also say “nothing in 10,000 words or more.”

Their “logic tree” doesn’t have the same “roots” that the logic tree for the rest of us does and they can twist reality. That’s about all I can say on the subject.

Ox Drover

I’m not sure if this is the appropriate thread to post this on, but I thought it might sort of fit.

I saw 20/20 tonight and it was discussing the “Safe Harbor” law in Nebraska that was for mothers/fathers to take their children to a hospital and leave them there without “abandoning” the child or being prosecuted. It was intended for babies, but no age was put on it and people from Nebraska and other states began to bring their children, mostly older children there and turning them over to the state.

The head of the human services division in Nebraska was denouncing these parents as “taking the easy way out” and “abandoning” these children.

20/20 spoke with some of the mothers and the grandmothers who were trying to raise these children and who made the painful decision to “abandon” these children to the state of Nebraska. Many of them were dangerous children with Bi-polar and “conduct disorder” (budding psychopaths) who were violent, and so violent that the parents, grandparents, and sibs were not safe.

They showed weapons made by an 11 year old, a stick with sharp nails and screws in it like a pin cushion. They interviewed the sibs of these children, who lived in fear of the “abandoned” child before the child was turned over to the state.

Some of these children had been hospitalized up to 26 times in their 10-12 yr life for violence. One mother said that when her son realized where she was taking him, he started begging her not to leave him, promising that he would not hit her or his sibs any more, that he would go to school, etc. Earlier she had described how he would curse her and strike her and his sibs, refuse to go to school, had been suspended, etc. and even had a video of a rage in which the child broke his own hand.

While my heart goes out to these children, my heart also goes out to these parents who made such a terrible decision to give up their children for the sakes of themselves and the sakes of the other children they are trying to raise—most of the time single handedly.

Other parents who made their children “wards of the state” because they made too much money to qualify for medicaide but didn’t have health insurance for treatment for the child’s mental illnesses.

The 20/20 interviewers were not very sympathetic to the head of the DHS for Nebraska who was totally 100% “blaming” the parents for not being able to handle these children and “taking the easy way out.” I could see the anguish in the faces of these women who had taken the last step possible in an impossible situation. My heart bleeds for both the children and the parents.

Wini

peterd: My bosses insisted that I go to the employees assistance program and explain all to the analyst there what was going on with me in the workplace. Of course, I refused after finding out how my co-workers who also were suing this team of managers were sold out by the employees assistance program. Who on that staff, I could not say because I refused to go. They analyze you, figure out your Achilles’ heel and serve it to the bosses in order for them to easily destroy ever fiber of you. Using you, against yourself. NOTHING DOING. I stayed as quiet and humble as possible and conditioned myself to take their insults, each and every day. I was fighting fire with kindness and compassion … though it exhausted me every day because of the amounts of players working on me every day. I figured they had at least 70 master minds pulling all the strings. They even brought in this retired personnel officer to go after my blood. That was the most unbelievable. Here this man retired years ago from the blood bath … and he’s resurrected to personally do me under… it was amazing to watch his oozing sleaze come alive. The guy actually smiled and smirked at me every chance he could and made no bones to tell me he was hired specifically to get me.

Of course, my kindness to him unglued him to no ends. They would always tell me from day one meeting “Wini, look how long we are giving you, no one has ever gotten so much time”. I had no clue what they were referring to until late that evening, before I went to bed, the words hit me like a thunder bolt … “look how much time we are giving you” … meant, most people loose their cool, tell us off by now and then we nail them for insubordination.

I always treated them with respect and they hated me for being a lady throughout all the hell they put me through.

Peace.

Wini

Oxy: I saw the tail end of that 20/20 show discussing the “Safe Harbor” law in Nebraska. That head of the human service division should take all those children in his home for a few months before he opens his mouth to make any comments about those children or their family members.

What a disgrace he is to the entire human race. How does anyone think this man can do his job if he doesn’t have an ounce of compassion? Absolutely NO compassion for either the children or the adult family members who made this gut wrenching decision? Typical bureaucrat … at it’s shining best for all to see, just collecting his paycheck every two weeks waiting for retirement.

Peace.

Wini

Bird: My EX had dyslexia and my sister had a hearing problem that was operated on when she was in 4th or 5th grade.

I’m wondering if they all have some form of physical ailments that they view as some sort of deficiency and hence, want others to pay for them being born with such? Again, it’s a negative mindset conditioned in themselves as children.

I’m wondering if therapist should work back from said ailments to find out what they thought of their ailment at a young age and how it affected their self esteem versus if they have this same thought process about the ailment as they aged?

You could just be on to something.

Peace.

Wini

Elizabeth Conley says: I noticed that the careless, lazy, rude and unreliable individuals (aka jerks) where I worked were the first ones to attached themselves to the psychos bandwagons. They just loved the energy of the chaos they could cause.

I also saw how the anti-social personality bosses would kick those that attached their wagons to them. They used everyone, the sniffling idiots and the decent (goody two shoes), mature folks. It was an equal opportunity destruction of careers and psyches on their part.

If the idiots (or jerks) got slapped down, they kept coming back for more. Brood for a few days and right back into the mix, relishing in it .. the insults, the chaos, and being allowed to keep the chaos flourishing… they were drunk with power of the chaos. Clueless to the fact that a new regime would come in and responsible people had a memory of all their antics for the years chaos reigned.

It always amazed me how these jerks thought that tomorrow would never arrive… as they basked in the breadcrumbs an anti-social personality threw their way for the short period they would reign.

I never saw jerks ever try to attach their wagons to decent bosses … always keeping their distance, somehow knowing that decent folks were surrounding a decent boss and they had no chance, no chance what so ever to get their way with a real boss.

Funny, the jerks always said nice things about an anti-social personality, but would never say anything nice about a decent personality … always looking for the negative side to a decent person. I found that an interesting concept too.

Peace.

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