Several weeks ago I introduced the idea that lying is the cardinal symptom of sociopathy/psychopathy. I believe that every sociopath/psychopath compulsively lies. Judging from the number of comments to the article, The cardinal sign of sociopathy: Every sociopath ______! you all agree with me. Since every sociopath lies, it is reasonable to ask if we can use lying behavior to help us identify sociopaths. The problem is that from time to time nearly everyone lies for any number of reasons, so lying is a rather non-specific finding in a person. It is instead pathologic lying that characterizes sociopaths and psychopaths.
In a recent paper, Pathological Lying Revisited (J Am Acad Psychiatry Law 33:342—9, 2005), Dr. Charles Dike and colleagues from Yale University discuss pathologic lying. They define pathologic lying as, “falsification entirely disproportionate to any discernible end in view, may be extensive and very complicated, and may manifest over a period of years or even a lifetime.” To translate, pathologic liars tell elaborate tales and the motivation for telling these tales is not always financial gain. Pathologic liars lie for pleasure, sometimes even when the truth sounds better. However, lying is by definition an interpersonal process, where one person attempts to impact another. In my opinion, there is always obvious gain in lying in that the end is impacting another person’s view of reality.
In support of the argument that the gain of pathologic lying is impacting another person’s view of reality, some have suggested that the root of pathologic lying is a person’s desire to play the role of the person depicted in the lie. There is a double consciousness in which two forms of life run side by side, the actual and the desired/depicted. In the liar’s mind the fantasy role and real life are not entirely separated. The role becomes the focus of the liar’s consciousness and that is why pathologic liars lie so easily.
Pathologic lying can be found in other conditions besides sociopathy and psychopathy. It has also been described in borderline personality disorder. But remember that this condition has been suggested by some to be very similar to sociopathy. Prominent clinicians have asserted that pathologic lying does not occur outside of psychopathy. In an important paper written in 1942, The psychiatric aspects of the pathological liar (Nerv Child 1:335—50), Dr. Selling said that “obvious mental disease, particularly a diagnosable psychopathic personality of some type” was responsible for pathologic lying.
Lest you now feel confident that you can diagnose sociopathy and/or psychopathy in your pathologic liar, I have to tell you that Dr. Cleckley himself stated that pathologic lying could occur in “normal people.” In a foot note on page 33 of The Mask of Sanity you will find the following quote:
“Such traits can occasionally be found even in wise and reliable people. A highly regarded and respected friend of mine, a doctor of philosophy, recently appointed professor of physics in a small but distinguished college, and the author of several useful and accurate contributions to scientific literature, is the first who comes to mind. This distinguished man has often regaled groups of acquaintances, myself among them, with accounts of working his way through the university by playing professional ice hockey at night, later setting type on a newspaper for several hours, rising before daylight to stoke tugboats on the waterfront, riding thirty-four miles to a high school to teach one subject and thirty-four miles back, as well as keeping house in a three-room apartment shared with six aviators and relieving the janitor of the building one hour during each twenty-four. All these activities were spoken of as being carried out simultaneously and along with full-time work at the university. He described in great detail and with apparent familiarity the duties of these positions. His only studying, he said, was done on the subway en route to his various duties. The same friend once came up from behind while another man and I were commenting on the height of a cliff on which we stood. The hazards of a dive from the position were being idly discussed. The newcomer at once estimated, probably with commendable accuracy, the height, the angle of landing, and all the technicalities of such a dive. He then launched into an astonishing description of a dive he had made in early youth from a bridge 167 feet above the Guadalquiver. One of the students to whom this excellent scholar lectures stated that it is the custom for each succeeding class to tabulate his adventures and their duration in these pseudoreminiscences and there from compute his age. The top figure so far is 169 years. Several classes have bettered 150. The students have great respect for him and confidence in him, as a teacher and as a man. They are particularly devoted to him. Let it be clearly understood that the person discussed in this footnote is not being brought forward as illustrative of the subject of this study. He is no part of a psychopath. He is, in fact, a character whose essential traits lie at the opposite extreme. The reminiscences here ascribed to him are not told boastfully or for the purpose of shielding himself or of gaining any material end. He is strikingly free of arrogance, kind to a remarkable degree, and altogether worthy of his strong reputation as a good and reliable man. His word in any practical matter is to be respected.”
The bolding in the words above is mine. Could Dr. Cleckley himself have missed grandiosity and psychopathy in his friend? I don’t know. Why would a humble person, with no desire to impact others, engage in pathologic lying? Dr. Cleckley says the lying was not boastful, but it does sound like bragging to me.
I think the point Dr. Cleckley made in this footnote is that for him, harm done to others is a defining quality of psychopathy (sociopathy). He knew of no instance where his friend had caused harm to others. The point of harm done is very important to the readers of this blog, many of whom are searching for definitive proof that the person who has done great harm to others financially, emotionally, psychologically and/or spiritually is a sociopath/psychopath. The only definitive proof of psychopathy according to experts like Dr. Hare is a PCL-R score over 30. It is very rare for a victim to have the benefit of an official PCL-R score on a perpetrator.
As I read the scientific literature, I am struck by the fact that many people psychiatrists would consider psychopaths do not in fact score over 30 on the PCL-R. To make matters worse there are many who score 20-29 on the PCL-R who have done great harm. Remember, Dr. Hare initially intended his scale to predict recidivism, it is only recently the scale has been used to define psychopathy.
I am passionate about my believe that the combination of harm done to others and personality attributes be used to define sociopathy/psychopathy. We know that not all unempathetic or callous individuals do harm to others. Furthermore, not all who do harm to others do so because they are callous and unempathetic. It is the combination of harm and personality type that is the real issue.
In conclusion then, if a pathological liar has done great harm to you, s/he is most certainly a sociopath/psychopath.
great article. My only problem with the conclusion is that you have to wait for the liar to do great harm to you before you can call him a spath.
Anyone who read Cleckley’s book would have to agree that he is a very intelligent man — who was REPEATEDLY taken in by spaths. His own stories attest to that. Though he described their behavior perfectly, he was flumoxed as to why the spaths did what they did.
The quote in the article about the wise professor, could easily have been talking about my ex-spath with one of his masks. He didn’t reveal his evil to everyone, only to other evil people and then of course to some of his victims. But I know that other victims never knew what hit them. They died thinking he was the most wonderful person, so wise and capable, entertaining and the best friend they’ve ever had. He loves animals too, you know, he wouldn’t hurt a fly. He’s got that heart of gold under a tough exterior… a regular hero.
right.
😯
IMO, all liars are deeply troubled in some way. The danger is too great to risk underestimating them.
SkyYou said all liars are deeply troubled. I believe that.
I used to think the lying was mostly about manipulating me. It was about control.
I realize now that le lies to project the reality he wishes were true. Its a fantasy because his life, and he, is empty. Pathetic.
And i realize now that sometimes he believes his own lies. How could somebody not? This means he has a deeply flawed view of reality.
How pathetic.
Athena
The only time I saw the ex spath get agitated was when someone didn’t believe his lies. He didn’t get nervous or anxious about anything but he would act slightly different when I didn’t buy into the bull honkey. It was not really noticable unless you knew him and could evaluate his body language.
The liespotters web page was more helpful to me than your average “How to Tell If Someone is Lying” website because it talked about the “tell”. The small indication that the person is lying, the ex spath had a smirk which was the “tell” and proof to me that he experienced satisfaction from lying.
It is official, my therapist said he is a sociopath. It’s nice to be validated.
Ahhhhh yes, Hopeforjoy…..Duper’s delight. The smirk.
here’s an example of a self-admitted spath whom people describe as:
A married former civil servant, those who knew him described him as well-educated, articulate and sociable.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2168824/Im-everyday-psychopath-Murderer-tricked-way-pensioners-home-showing-Age-UK-charity-leaflets-bludgeoned-death-jailed-life.html#ixzz1zilmPLXd
How many of our spaths pass for normal? or even exceptional?
The only way to know if someone is a spath is to tell them, “I love you.” that’s when they reveal themselves.
Hi Athena, Hi Hope, Hi Kim!
Skylar (et al), I can’t speak to whether or not all pathological liars are sociopaths. I agree with OxD that, at the very least, they’re troubled.
The exspath appears to be a mild-mannered, civil, intelligent, and “normal” person. What he truly is would blow anyone’s mind away if they knew the facts of the situation. And, he is quite a pathological liar and uses “omission” as a very useful tool: if he didn’t SPEAK a lie and only witheld information, then he’s not really a liar.
pfffft……..I wish people didn’t feel the need to lie, but sometimes they do. Those who are pathological in their lies are useless.
Yes, my expath used omission as an important tool. He hides, actually, and changes the subject, and speaks very little. That way he can’t be held accountable to what he says.
Once I told him I thought he was a compulsive liar, and I asked him to stop. LOL! As if he would say, “oh, jeepers, she’s right, I will stop.”. LOL! I accused him of lying to me about his where-abouts. He WAS lying. So then, he was so agitated that I caught him in a lie that he jumped on a plane and flew all the way across the country so he could “PROVE” to me that he was actually where he said he was.
Oh my god. Stupid.
Athena
It’s an interesting question. I regularly check posts at a forum for people seeking help as they suspect their partner is a compulsive liar. Chances are VERY high that their partner is a sociopath, not just a compulsive liar who lives in fantasy land.
And it has made me consider how much the lies create a fog for the other. The victim gets so wrapped up in trying to find out the lies, confronting the sociopath with the lies, and categorizing the type of lies that the victim cannot see the forest through the trees anymore. All they are seeing are lies after lies, hoping to get the truth out of the spath (even if they already know the truth), and thereby avoiding to recognize the actions the lies are trying to cover up. The victims then often go looking for a treatment for the lying, which is but a symptom, and therefore pretty useless and beside point.
An example, victims would say “he/she lies about stupid, silly stuff, then there are the party lies, the financial lies and then there are the other woman lies”, instead of saying, “He lies, boasts, parties, gets us in debt and cheats”. Ultimately I think this is how the lies serve the liar – to get the victim so focused on the lying aspect, instead of the harmful actions.
I tend to think that most liars are spaths, but can’t be sure because I’ve read, on the internet, people who lament being compulsive liars. Of course, they could be lying about their regrets…
but anyway, I hope to be able to come to some conclusion, so I googled: “I lie about stupid stuff”
Sure enough, there’s a forum for that!
http://www.psychforums.com/compulsive-lying/topic7278.html
I’m in the middle of a project and can’t spend too much time on reading it, but I thought I’d see if anybody else can glean some insight from the discussion between compulsive liars. Keep in mind that they might be lying, or they might be suffering from cog/diss as well. Take what you read there with an enormous grain of salt!
And you might need a margarita to go with that.
😀
Okay…..this might be somewhat off-topic, but I’m watching “Night Of The Hunter,” as I type this. Anyone who hasn’t seen it really should, though it might be triggering.
It’s a MUCH older movie with a very young (and, handsome) Robert Mitchum who plays the role of a preacher who tracks down the widow of a fellow prison inmate who was executed. Mitchum lovebombs the entire town and the widow (played by a beautiful Shelly Winters) so that he can locate money that Winters’ deceased husband had stolen.
This movie is packed with some really skeevy stuff – the way that Mitchum’s character works over EVERYONE by outright lies and manipulations. OMIGOSH…….
Yah….lying and sociopathy go together like popcorn and butter.