Several weeks ago I introduced the idea that lying is the cardinal symptom of sociopathy/psychopathy. I believe that every sociopath/psychopath compulsively lies. Judging from the number of comments to the article, The cardinal sign of sociopathy: Every sociopath ______! you all agree with me. Since every sociopath lies, it is reasonable to ask if we can use lying behavior to help us identify sociopaths. The problem is that from time to time nearly everyone lies for any number of reasons, so lying is a rather non-specific finding in a person. It is instead pathologic lying that characterizes sociopaths and psychopaths.
In a recent paper, Pathological Lying Revisited (J Am Acad Psychiatry Law 33:342—9, 2005), Dr. Charles Dike and colleagues from Yale University discuss pathologic lying. They define pathologic lying as, “falsification entirely disproportionate to any discernible end in view, may be extensive and very complicated, and may manifest over a period of years or even a lifetime.” To translate, pathologic liars tell elaborate tales and the motivation for telling these tales is not always financial gain. Pathologic liars lie for pleasure, sometimes even when the truth sounds better. However, lying is by definition an interpersonal process, where one person attempts to impact another. In my opinion, there is always obvious gain in lying in that the end is impacting another person’s view of reality.
In support of the argument that the gain of pathologic lying is impacting another person’s view of reality, some have suggested that the root of pathologic lying is a person’s desire to play the role of the person depicted in the lie. There is a double consciousness in which two forms of life run side by side, the actual and the desired/depicted. In the liar’s mind the fantasy role and real life are not entirely separated. The role becomes the focus of the liar’s consciousness and that is why pathologic liars lie so easily.
Pathologic lying can be found in other conditions besides sociopathy and psychopathy. It has also been described in borderline personality disorder. But remember that this condition has been suggested by some to be very similar to sociopathy. Prominent clinicians have asserted that pathologic lying does not occur outside of psychopathy. In an important paper written in 1942, The psychiatric aspects of the pathological liar (Nerv Child 1:335—50), Dr. Selling said that “obvious mental disease, particularly a diagnosable psychopathic personality of some type” was responsible for pathologic lying.
Lest you now feel confident that you can diagnose sociopathy and/or psychopathy in your pathologic liar, I have to tell you that Dr. Cleckley himself stated that pathologic lying could occur in “normal people.” In a foot note on page 33 of The Mask of Sanity you will find the following quote:
“Such traits can occasionally be found even in wise and reliable people. A highly regarded and respected friend of mine, a doctor of philosophy, recently appointed professor of physics in a small but distinguished college, and the author of several useful and accurate contributions to scientific literature, is the first who comes to mind. This distinguished man has often regaled groups of acquaintances, myself among them, with accounts of working his way through the university by playing professional ice hockey at night, later setting type on a newspaper for several hours, rising before daylight to stoke tugboats on the waterfront, riding thirty-four miles to a high school to teach one subject and thirty-four miles back, as well as keeping house in a three-room apartment shared with six aviators and relieving the janitor of the building one hour during each twenty-four. All these activities were spoken of as being carried out simultaneously and along with full-time work at the university. He described in great detail and with apparent familiarity the duties of these positions. His only studying, he said, was done on the subway en route to his various duties. The same friend once came up from behind while another man and I were commenting on the height of a cliff on which we stood. The hazards of a dive from the position were being idly discussed. The newcomer at once estimated, probably with commendable accuracy, the height, the angle of landing, and all the technicalities of such a dive. He then launched into an astonishing description of a dive he had made in early youth from a bridge 167 feet above the Guadalquiver. One of the students to whom this excellent scholar lectures stated that it is the custom for each succeeding class to tabulate his adventures and their duration in these pseudoreminiscences and there from compute his age. The top figure so far is 169 years. Several classes have bettered 150. The students have great respect for him and confidence in him, as a teacher and as a man. They are particularly devoted to him. Let it be clearly understood that the person discussed in this footnote is not being brought forward as illustrative of the subject of this study. He is no part of a psychopath. He is, in fact, a character whose essential traits lie at the opposite extreme. The reminiscences here ascribed to him are not told boastfully or for the purpose of shielding himself or of gaining any material end. He is strikingly free of arrogance, kind to a remarkable degree, and altogether worthy of his strong reputation as a good and reliable man. His word in any practical matter is to be respected.”
The bolding in the words above is mine. Could Dr. Cleckley himself have missed grandiosity and psychopathy in his friend? I don’t know. Why would a humble person, with no desire to impact others, engage in pathologic lying? Dr. Cleckley says the lying was not boastful, but it does sound like bragging to me.
I think the point Dr. Cleckley made in this footnote is that for him, harm done to others is a defining quality of psychopathy (sociopathy). He knew of no instance where his friend had caused harm to others. The point of harm done is very important to the readers of this blog, many of whom are searching for definitive proof that the person who has done great harm to others financially, emotionally, psychologically and/or spiritually is a sociopath/psychopath. The only definitive proof of psychopathy according to experts like Dr. Hare is a PCL-R score over 30. It is very rare for a victim to have the benefit of an official PCL-R score on a perpetrator.
As I read the scientific literature, I am struck by the fact that many people psychiatrists would consider psychopaths do not in fact score over 30 on the PCL-R. To make matters worse there are many who score 20-29 on the PCL-R who have done great harm. Remember, Dr. Hare initially intended his scale to predict recidivism, it is only recently the scale has been used to define psychopathy.
I am passionate about my believe that the combination of harm done to others and personality attributes be used to define sociopathy/psychopathy. We know that not all unempathetic or callous individuals do harm to others. Furthermore, not all who do harm to others do so because they are callous and unempathetic. It is the combination of harm and personality type that is the real issue.
In conclusion then, if a pathological liar has done great harm to you, s/he is most certainly a sociopath/psychopath.
Oh yes, Truthspeak, lies and deceptions and psychopaths and/or sociopaths DO go together like popcorn and butter or cottage cheese and pineapples; or, vodka and orange juice. You can’t have one without the other. I suppose you could, but, when it comes to “THEM” you can’t have one without the other.
I saw that movie you are talking about and yes, Mitchum played the perfect PSYCHOPATH in that movie. Absolutely. That was a great movie and it depicts the way things really are with ‘misfit’ human beings.
Happy evening to you Truth…don’t let it bother ya….
We are stronger and wiser.
Dupey
Sky,
Re the forum/support group for liars. Managed to read three posts before feeling the need to vomit.
These people had a “terrible childhood”
Aw that’s ok then. WTF?
{HICCUP!} Did someone say margarita?
Strongawoman, I don’t know a single human being out there that did not have some sort of issues during their childhood. Some had horrible experiences, others not so much. But, what remains consistent as far as I can tell is that the storytelling of spaths is SO elaborate.
The first exspath made claims that he had to “run away” from his mother that had moved to an adjacent country because she was “crazy.” Well, she may have been DRIVEN nuts by an extraordinarily abusive husband.
The second exspath didn’t talk so much about his childhood, but he wasn’t raised by his parents – he spent the majority of his time at his grandparents’ home instead of his parents’ house.
Pity seems to be the #1 ploy, and loveboming the companion to pity. BLEAH……yeah, everyone’s had some pitiful experiences in their lives – everyone. But, really….
Dupey….maragita? I’ll take 2 fingers of Jack Daniels, neat. LOLOLOL!!!!
And, what’s with the outrageous lies? I mean, the stories that are so outrageous that they’re questionable?!
“I worked for the CIA,” or, “I’m a decorated combat Veteran,” or, “I’m a recording artist,” or…….jayzus, let’s put them ALL out there – the one-liners and outrageous claims! WHY do they invent such outrageous claims?
If I were ever to even consider dating someone, again, I’d do a thorough background check – criminal, civil, AND military. Sound harsh? Nope – not in MY world!
Brightest truthful blessings!!!! 😀
Strongawoman,
My point in posting the link to the conversation between liars, is that there are some who want to quit lying. Spaths, on the other hand, have no intention of quitting their lies. That would be like quitting breathing for a spath.
So the question is, do they lie differently? Do they lie for different reasons? How can we discriminate between the two types of liars?
I remember being mortified by the lies my spath was telling a salesman. When the salesman walked away to fetch the merchandise, I whispered, “Spath, you don’t have to lie ALL the time, sometimes the truth is OK.”
Spath seemed to think about it for a second, then responded, “Oh, OK.”
So there are some things we can know.
First, I’m pretty sure all liars have low self-esteem. Even if the lie is just about the weather, the lying HABIT originated from low self-esteem. It made them feel better to lie about themselves.
Second, I felt mortified just being in the presence of the lie, yet liars don’t seem to feel any shame whatsoever about being caught lying. Granted, some will rage at you if you accuse them of lying, but that’s just more manipulation. So whatever is missing in a liar is similar to what’s missing in a spath: the ability to feel shame.
I don’t believe that spaths don’t HAVE shame. I think that they have bypassed, unfelt shame.
From a website on sex addiction, I read that sex addicts are actually addicted to shame. Their ability to “numb” the prefrontal cortex when doing shameful behavior, becomes addicting and then they desire to be shamed even more, since they feel the opposite of shame. They feel narcissism.
Maybe lies have the same effect?
I agree with all the comments made about liars. Mine had it all – the terrible childhood where he was treated sadistically by his stepfather and beat on almost a daily basis. How he left home at 16 and lived in the YMCA while he finished high school while working at McDonalds. How his natural father had tried to kill his when he was a baby by bashing his head into a wall. The real father was an alcoholic who killed himself. After high school he went in the Navy and became a Corman (?). Got married to his first wife who’s mother was a therapist. Had two children but never cared enough to contact them after the divorce. I’m sure mommy-in-law saw right through him and convinced her daughter to run.
All of this was meant to envoke pity at his “poor” childhood and to explain some of his bad habits.
He also lied a lot by omission. It would have been easy for him to tell me he was renting a house for him and his girlfriend since I had told him I thought he was dating someone and since I only wanted to be friends it didn’t matter. But no! He lets me find out through his real estate agent. What a coward. I’m going to add that to my list of “why I hate my spath”
I think lies of omission are just as bad and hurtful as a down and out lie! Hang them all from the flag post!
Stormy…..flag post? How about a good ‘ole oak tree? (snort, harrumph)
Pathological lying……hmmmmm. First of all, the adverb, “pathological”, marks this kind of lying as abnormal, which furthar marks some, other kinds of lying as ok.
Well, maybe not ok, but normal. Anyone who asserts they have never told a lie, is a liar, IMO. Does that make lying ok? No. Just human. But what distinguishes a human frailty from a pathology?
If a liar is lying to cover up a mis deed, that is a red flag. If a liar is lying to protect his image of, all around good guy, that’s a red flag. If a liar, is lying in an attempt to produce an image of himself, that isn’tcongurnt with who he truley is, that’s a red flag.
I think I get your point, Skylar.
If I judge myself as ok, just the way I am, and believe that other people will also judge me to be ok, just the way I am, I won’t need to fabricate a false self, or an image.
Yeah, all that is shame based. Maybe, forgivable, but still, hurtful to others, and dishonest. Then, there are the liars that set out to con. They are deliberately duping in an effort to take from others. Is that shame-based? Maybe, but it’s still evil,
“Adult children of alcoholics lie, when it would be just as easy to tell the truth.” One of the symptoms, of being raised in an alcoholic home. Are all children raised in alcoholic homes, psychopaths? No. But they certainly have some issues.
It goes back, again to the discussion we had about the scandalon…that thing we trip over, because of our weakness….not intending to fuck up, but fucking up, none the less.
We all want to get our needs met. If I tell you I’m not a lowly waitress at a diner, but an aging film star, or that I have a Ph.D in rocket science…..will you love me? Will I love me? If you love me, will that make me ok?
I don’t know, for sure, what I’m getting at. Certainly not saying we should pity the liars, and some liars are just pure evil.
Kim..
When I was a teenager I lied about who I was because I was so ashamed of who I was. Reality is I didnt have a clue who I was. I was so used to covering up the truth about my childhood with lie’s because the truth was to hard to bare. I mean who want’s to tell the truth when it is so ugly?
So, now I am being true to myself and what you see is who I am, flaw’s wart’s and all. I never conned anyone out of a thing. I never set out to hurt someone with a lie. All I ever wanted was to be loved by people that couldnt or wouldnt. So to thyne ownself be true.