Several weeks ago I introduced the idea that lying is the cardinal symptom of sociopathy/psychopathy. I believe that every sociopath/psychopath compulsively lies. Judging from the number of comments to the article, The cardinal sign of sociopathy: Every sociopath ______! you all agree with me. Since every sociopath lies, it is reasonable to ask if we can use lying behavior to help us identify sociopaths. The problem is that from time to time nearly everyone lies for any number of reasons, so lying is a rather non-specific finding in a person. It is instead pathologic lying that characterizes sociopaths and psychopaths.
In a recent paper, Pathological Lying Revisited (J Am Acad Psychiatry Law 33:342—9, 2005), Dr. Charles Dike and colleagues from Yale University discuss pathologic lying. They define pathologic lying as, “falsification entirely disproportionate to any discernible end in view, may be extensive and very complicated, and may manifest over a period of years or even a lifetime.” To translate, pathologic liars tell elaborate tales and the motivation for telling these tales is not always financial gain. Pathologic liars lie for pleasure, sometimes even when the truth sounds better. However, lying is by definition an interpersonal process, where one person attempts to impact another. In my opinion, there is always obvious gain in lying in that the end is impacting another person’s view of reality.
In support of the argument that the gain of pathologic lying is impacting another person’s view of reality, some have suggested that the root of pathologic lying is a person’s desire to play the role of the person depicted in the lie. There is a double consciousness in which two forms of life run side by side, the actual and the desired/depicted. In the liar’s mind the fantasy role and real life are not entirely separated. The role becomes the focus of the liar’s consciousness and that is why pathologic liars lie so easily.
Pathologic lying can be found in other conditions besides sociopathy and psychopathy. It has also been described in borderline personality disorder. But remember that this condition has been suggested by some to be very similar to sociopathy. Prominent clinicians have asserted that pathologic lying does not occur outside of psychopathy. In an important paper written in 1942, The psychiatric aspects of the pathological liar (Nerv Child 1:335—50), Dr. Selling said that “obvious mental disease, particularly a diagnosable psychopathic personality of some type” was responsible for pathologic lying.
Lest you now feel confident that you can diagnose sociopathy and/or psychopathy in your pathologic liar, I have to tell you that Dr. Cleckley himself stated that pathologic lying could occur in “normal people.” In a foot note on page 33 of The Mask of Sanity you will find the following quote:
“Such traits can occasionally be found even in wise and reliable people. A highly regarded and respected friend of mine, a doctor of philosophy, recently appointed professor of physics in a small but distinguished college, and the author of several useful and accurate contributions to scientific literature, is the first who comes to mind. This distinguished man has often regaled groups of acquaintances, myself among them, with accounts of working his way through the university by playing professional ice hockey at night, later setting type on a newspaper for several hours, rising before daylight to stoke tugboats on the waterfront, riding thirty-four miles to a high school to teach one subject and thirty-four miles back, as well as keeping house in a three-room apartment shared with six aviators and relieving the janitor of the building one hour during each twenty-four. All these activities were spoken of as being carried out simultaneously and along with full-time work at the university. He described in great detail and with apparent familiarity the duties of these positions. His only studying, he said, was done on the subway en route to his various duties. The same friend once came up from behind while another man and I were commenting on the height of a cliff on which we stood. The hazards of a dive from the position were being idly discussed. The newcomer at once estimated, probably with commendable accuracy, the height, the angle of landing, and all the technicalities of such a dive. He then launched into an astonishing description of a dive he had made in early youth from a bridge 167 feet above the Guadalquiver. One of the students to whom this excellent scholar lectures stated that it is the custom for each succeeding class to tabulate his adventures and their duration in these pseudoreminiscences and there from compute his age. The top figure so far is 169 years. Several classes have bettered 150. The students have great respect for him and confidence in him, as a teacher and as a man. They are particularly devoted to him. Let it be clearly understood that the person discussed in this footnote is not being brought forward as illustrative of the subject of this study. He is no part of a psychopath. He is, in fact, a character whose essential traits lie at the opposite extreme. The reminiscences here ascribed to him are not told boastfully or for the purpose of shielding himself or of gaining any material end. He is strikingly free of arrogance, kind to a remarkable degree, and altogether worthy of his strong reputation as a good and reliable man. His word in any practical matter is to be respected.”
The bolding in the words above is mine. Could Dr. Cleckley himself have missed grandiosity and psychopathy in his friend? I don’t know. Why would a humble person, with no desire to impact others, engage in pathologic lying? Dr. Cleckley says the lying was not boastful, but it does sound like bragging to me.
I think the point Dr. Cleckley made in this footnote is that for him, harm done to others is a defining quality of psychopathy (sociopathy). He knew of no instance where his friend had caused harm to others. The point of harm done is very important to the readers of this blog, many of whom are searching for definitive proof that the person who has done great harm to others financially, emotionally, psychologically and/or spiritually is a sociopath/psychopath. The only definitive proof of psychopathy according to experts like Dr. Hare is a PCL-R score over 30. It is very rare for a victim to have the benefit of an official PCL-R score on a perpetrator.
As I read the scientific literature, I am struck by the fact that many people psychiatrists would consider psychopaths do not in fact score over 30 on the PCL-R. To make matters worse there are many who score 20-29 on the PCL-R who have done great harm. Remember, Dr. Hare initially intended his scale to predict recidivism, it is only recently the scale has been used to define psychopathy.
I am passionate about my believe that the combination of harm done to others and personality attributes be used to define sociopathy/psychopathy. We know that not all unempathetic or callous individuals do harm to others. Furthermore, not all who do harm to others do so because they are callous and unempathetic. It is the combination of harm and personality type that is the real issue.
In conclusion then, if a pathological liar has done great harm to you, s/he is most certainly a sociopath/psychopath.
Kim & Hens, I’ve told lies of all sorts! REALLY BAD ONES, too….but, once I understood the ramifications of what I’d done and how my actions had impacted people that I didn’t even know (let alone my own family), I stood accountable and have endeavored to avoid lying, since.
Now, that’s not to say that I still don’t lie – oh, yes I do. A student may ask, “Is this a good painting?” I do not tear that person’s efforts apart by telling them that another artistic expression should be considered. I tell that person that I like their use of form, shadow, or something….”It’s a great effort!” Is that a lie? Well, if we get down to brass tacks, it is, because I did not respond with, “That is the most hideous thing I’ve seen, and you have no business trying to paint.”
Today, I don’t lie about things that have to do with my character flaws, foibles, mistakes, and credentials.
Hens, very well put: “I was so used to covering up the truth about my childhood with lie’s because the truth was to hard to bare. I mean who want’s to tell the truth when it is so ugly? So, now I am being true to myself and what you see is who I am, flaw’s wart’s and all.” Shame-core, here, too. Now that I know what it is, I can look at it square in its ugly face and say, “Yeah….I’m not perfect. Sue me.”
Brightest blessings
Truthspeak 🙂
We’ve all lied….and telling someone their painting is “interesting” when you’d rather say “hideous” is not a bad thing…or telling someone their dress is nice when you don’t like it is a “social lie” and I don’t think is a bad thing at all. It is to save someone’s feelings. That is not a bad thing at all. It is TACT.
To tell a story that is meant to mislead someone or conceal a truth that they NEED TO KNOW AND HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW….that’s a horse of a different color. And it doesn’t in my opinion make any difference if it is done by withholding information or by words that are false. It is is meant to mislead someone then it is a LIE.
One lie doesn’t make a person a “pathological” liar, and even two lies don’t….it is when lying is a way of life, when conning is part of their lying behavior. That kind of person is generally a psychopath in my opinion. Or at the very least untrustworthy and I don’t want to deal with people I can’t trust.
DarwinsMom
I think your post, above, was very insightful. Yes, the victims are shocked by the lies, and try to sort them out, rather than say, “BAD NEWS” and get the hell away.
I spent sooooo much time digging into the reality of my spath – this lie, that lie, holy shit another lie…thinking this little piece is true, or that little piece is true, but it AIN’T.
The ENTIRE MAN IS A LIE.
Ugh. Gross.
Athena
Sky,
Interesting concept….the spath lies in a way to feel superior. It is without shame…..bypassed that emotion which prevents a human being perpetrating evil upon another.
My ex hated liars. Pure projection. He lied with aplomb. What is it Truthy says? It’s “opposite day” in spath land.
I understand what you said re compulsive liars who think they have to make their life more interesting. Serious lack of self esteem. Ye I’ve done that. Er, when I was a kid!!! I’ve exaggerated the truth.
But to say oh I have a problem with lying and I need a forum to support me cos I can’t help it. Nah. Not buying that I’m afraid.
Tell the TRUTH. It’s as simple as that. Its a habit yes. It’s not a compulsive habit. IMO anyway.
Liars! Get a grip. Get a life. Or get a big kick up the arse from the rest of society. That’s what I say. 😆
“From a website on sex addiction, I read that sex addicts are actually addicted to shame. Their ability to “numb” the prefrontal cortex when doing shameful behavior, becomes addicting and then they desire to be shamed even more, since they feel the opposite of shame. They feel narcissism.
Maybe lies have the same effect?”
Skylar;
There must be something to this. For example, my x-spath used the same profile name on a serious dating site and various porn ones. Thus, anyone googling his profile name would find online videos he posted of himself masturbating (and trust me, he is not much of a porn start) plus learn about his tastes unsafe and rough sex.
I was embarrassed when found this stuff, yet he obviously is not.
He most active online profile is a complete lie — age is younger, says he lives in a very affluent neighborhood, he even lies about his male endowment, or lack thereof, should I say? Yet he says he is “looking for somebody who is good for me…”
How can anyone expect to find somebody good for them with a profile based upon lies?
BBE
It’s just a pile of shit, isn’t it? They hurt themselves, and others, on purpose.
By the way, I ran across the song by the Who. Is that how you ended up with your handle?
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/w/who/behind+blue+eyes_20146515.html/
Athena
BBE:
And what is his (or anyone like him) definition of “somebody who is good for me?” I can guarantee you it’s not someone who is considerate, genuine, kind and not a liar. It’s probably someone just like him who he is really looking for because I feel the spaths with their shame don’t feel like they deserve someone good…they think they deserve abuse. They shun someone good…
That’s one of the best songs ever…we’ve talked about it on here many times. You must not have been around during those times, Athena…
Louise, apparently not! When I heard it on my ipod I about fell out of my chair. Very fitting!