Several weeks ago I introduced the idea that lying is the cardinal symptom of sociopathy/psychopathy. I believe that every sociopath/psychopath compulsively lies. Judging from the number of comments to the article, The cardinal sign of sociopathy: Every sociopath ______! you all agree with me. Since every sociopath lies, it is reasonable to ask if we can use lying behavior to help us identify sociopaths. The problem is that from time to time nearly everyone lies for any number of reasons, so lying is a rather non-specific finding in a person. It is instead pathologic lying that characterizes sociopaths and psychopaths.
In a recent paper, Pathological Lying Revisited (J Am Acad Psychiatry Law 33:342—9, 2005), Dr. Charles Dike and colleagues from Yale University discuss pathologic lying. They define pathologic lying as, “falsification entirely disproportionate to any discernible end in view, may be extensive and very complicated, and may manifest over a period of years or even a lifetime.” To translate, pathologic liars tell elaborate tales and the motivation for telling these tales is not always financial gain. Pathologic liars lie for pleasure, sometimes even when the truth sounds better. However, lying is by definition an interpersonal process, where one person attempts to impact another. In my opinion, there is always obvious gain in lying in that the end is impacting another person’s view of reality.
In support of the argument that the gain of pathologic lying is impacting another person’s view of reality, some have suggested that the root of pathologic lying is a person’s desire to play the role of the person depicted in the lie. There is a double consciousness in which two forms of life run side by side, the actual and the desired/depicted. In the liar’s mind the fantasy role and real life are not entirely separated. The role becomes the focus of the liar’s consciousness and that is why pathologic liars lie so easily.
Pathologic lying can be found in other conditions besides sociopathy and psychopathy. It has also been described in borderline personality disorder. But remember that this condition has been suggested by some to be very similar to sociopathy. Prominent clinicians have asserted that pathologic lying does not occur outside of psychopathy. In an important paper written in 1942, The psychiatric aspects of the pathological liar (Nerv Child 1:335—50), Dr. Selling said that “obvious mental disease, particularly a diagnosable psychopathic personality of some type” was responsible for pathologic lying.
Lest you now feel confident that you can diagnose sociopathy and/or psychopathy in your pathologic liar, I have to tell you that Dr. Cleckley himself stated that pathologic lying could occur in “normal people.” In a foot note on page 33 of The Mask of Sanity you will find the following quote:
“Such traits can occasionally be found even in wise and reliable people. A highly regarded and respected friend of mine, a doctor of philosophy, recently appointed professor of physics in a small but distinguished college, and the author of several useful and accurate contributions to scientific literature, is the first who comes to mind. This distinguished man has often regaled groups of acquaintances, myself among them, with accounts of working his way through the university by playing professional ice hockey at night, later setting type on a newspaper for several hours, rising before daylight to stoke tugboats on the waterfront, riding thirty-four miles to a high school to teach one subject and thirty-four miles back, as well as keeping house in a three-room apartment shared with six aviators and relieving the janitor of the building one hour during each twenty-four. All these activities were spoken of as being carried out simultaneously and along with full-time work at the university. He described in great detail and with apparent familiarity the duties of these positions. His only studying, he said, was done on the subway en route to his various duties. The same friend once came up from behind while another man and I were commenting on the height of a cliff on which we stood. The hazards of a dive from the position were being idly discussed. The newcomer at once estimated, probably with commendable accuracy, the height, the angle of landing, and all the technicalities of such a dive. He then launched into an astonishing description of a dive he had made in early youth from a bridge 167 feet above the Guadalquiver. One of the students to whom this excellent scholar lectures stated that it is the custom for each succeeding class to tabulate his adventures and their duration in these pseudoreminiscences and there from compute his age. The top figure so far is 169 years. Several classes have bettered 150. The students have great respect for him and confidence in him, as a teacher and as a man. They are particularly devoted to him. Let it be clearly understood that the person discussed in this footnote is not being brought forward as illustrative of the subject of this study. He is no part of a psychopath. He is, in fact, a character whose essential traits lie at the opposite extreme. The reminiscences here ascribed to him are not told boastfully or for the purpose of shielding himself or of gaining any material end. He is strikingly free of arrogance, kind to a remarkable degree, and altogether worthy of his strong reputation as a good and reliable man. His word in any practical matter is to be respected.”
The bolding in the words above is mine. Could Dr. Cleckley himself have missed grandiosity and psychopathy in his friend? I don’t know. Why would a humble person, with no desire to impact others, engage in pathologic lying? Dr. Cleckley says the lying was not boastful, but it does sound like bragging to me.
I think the point Dr. Cleckley made in this footnote is that for him, harm done to others is a defining quality of psychopathy (sociopathy). He knew of no instance where his friend had caused harm to others. The point of harm done is very important to the readers of this blog, many of whom are searching for definitive proof that the person who has done great harm to others financially, emotionally, psychologically and/or spiritually is a sociopath/psychopath. The only definitive proof of psychopathy according to experts like Dr. Hare is a PCL-R score over 30. It is very rare for a victim to have the benefit of an official PCL-R score on a perpetrator.
As I read the scientific literature, I am struck by the fact that many people psychiatrists would consider psychopaths do not in fact score over 30 on the PCL-R. To make matters worse there are many who score 20-29 on the PCL-R who have done great harm. Remember, Dr. Hare initially intended his scale to predict recidivism, it is only recently the scale has been used to define psychopathy.
I am passionate about my believe that the combination of harm done to others and personality attributes be used to define sociopathy/psychopathy. We know that not all unempathetic or callous individuals do harm to others. Furthermore, not all who do harm to others do so because they are callous and unempathetic. It is the combination of harm and personality type that is the real issue.
In conclusion then, if a pathological liar has done great harm to you, s/he is most certainly a sociopath/psychopath.
callmeathena;
I choose “behind_blue_eyes” indirectly. First, it was on article the “sociopathic stare” that first made me think I was involved with one. Even the night I met him it was evident, as I saw him staring about me from across the room. However, I did not understand the significance.
Since both our eyes are blue, I was thinking about a name containing blue. While I had always liked the song “Behind Blue Eyes,” it did not realize until I started researching sociopaths did I realize the song is mostly like about one, hence the name.
“And what is his (or anyone like him) definition of “somebody who is good for me?” I can guarantee you it’s not someone who is considerate, genuine, kind and not a liar.”
Louise;
Well, if you really want to attract “somebody good for me,” perhaps a smart way to start is with the truth. I was certainly ready to accept some of his truths: that he worked in a fairly notorious profession for a gay man (flight attendant), that he did not have a great childhood, like most gay men over 30 probably had a bit of baggage and that he was starting to show his age….
Of course, that was just the tip of the iceberg. As Skylar points out, sociopaths always throw in some truths to distract you from deep truths, the basis of their shame, his being that not only is he an aging gay flight attendant, but an HIV+ one as well.
Interestingly, to the best of my knowledge, he is only very active on either mainly American or International web sites, not domestic UK ones. Why? He travels for a living and while away from the UK, he can lie as much as he wants.
So he creates a profile based on who he wishes he was (expensive Kensington address younger, taller, photoshopped pictures, well endowded…) instead of who he really is. The odd thing is, he does not need to lie. He actually is charming, intelligent, not bad for 38…
However, besides hiding that he is HIV, is suspect there is more baggage and this is the real reason why he lies…
BBE
Well its a good name.
My spath too had a lot in his favor. Looks, intelligence and wealth. But he lied about everything. I couldnt understand it. Lied and lied. No matter what compliments and assurances i gave him, he kept lying.
I was shocked at the extent of his early lies. I thought he would dtop if i complimented him. Then i realized the lies werent about me. They were about him. And it wasnt just about x or y or z. He IS a lie. I think thats the difference between white liars “those pants look fine on you” vs spaths.
I find it so amazing how much and how long i have been grieving this.
I used to go running back to him wanting him to fix it and make it better. But he cant. So now i am learning that i can only grieve who he is, moreso than what he has done.
Sad.
callmeathena;
Anyone involved with a sociopath wants to be the Luke Skywalker who sees the “good” in Darth Vader and by not giving up, “saves” him.
That is pure Hollywood. In reality, Darth Vader would have killed Luke Skywalker, Oxdrover’s situation in reverse.
Yeah, the BBE song is my spath to a “T.” Listen to those words and that’s mine…blue eyes and all.
I think their need to lie is just horrible. I came from a very dysfunctional family and I’m not a liar. Actually, I tell the truth to my own detriment. The OW is a HUGE liar. She always said how poor she was growing up. Maybe that’s why she lies…I’m guessing it started in childhood…because of being poor, maybe she felt like she had to lie to her teachers or something at school…who knows. I just try to grasp at anything as to why they lie the way they do. I just don’t get it. If I was a liar like that, I would be so scared all the time…afraid that I was going to get found out. Who wants to live like that? If you tell the truth, there is nothing to hide. I would hate to live their lives. They also are very good at avoiding and hiding when they don’t want to deal with something. Avoidants big time. And giving the silent treatment. I hate both of those tactics…makes the victim of it feel so helpless.
“I think their need to lie is just horrible. I came from a very dysfunctional family and I’m not a liar…”
To this day, my head spins when I think about the honest way I handled my possible HIV infection, while at the same time he was not honest about his.
In retrospect, he never asked me about by test results but this is also part of their game, what they don’t talk about is part of the mask…
BBE
Yes I agree. Somebody earlier in this thread posted the same things. Lies of ommission are just as bad. (sp).
Athena
But they sometimes slip. For example, the night I met the x-spath, I told him of all my health problems. When I asked about his health status, he said everything was OK except for high triglycerides, which struck me as odd for somebody slim and reality young.
At the time, I did not realize that such is a very common symptom of HIV medication. Today, if a met a guy and he told me the say, I would pointed ask him if was a side effect of medications.
I have an eerie story that happened last month that I will post tomorrow. At least is shows I again have learned something here…
BBE:
Exactly. You have to also look at what they “don’t” talk about as part of the mask…it’s the avoidance.
Can’t wait to hear your story.
Lies of omission are just huge with ppaths/spaths…and lying by omission is the same as a lie.
“IT” and I have had this go-around, many times, in the past. How omission is as filthy as lying…
You have to listen to all the things they DONT say as much as you listen to the things they do. The truth is in the things they don’t say more than it is in the things they do say. In the omission lays the real truths, I have found.
All those things they don’t want you to know because if you find out, you won’t want them anymore and then what would they do? They would have no entertainment nor the bolstering of their ego by ‘getting one over’ – how powerful that makes them feel. That’s why they do it. For the personal rush it gives them and no other reason. They are addicted to the ‘control’ and ‘dominance’.
The rush of screwing with someone elses life and turning it upside down without conscience nor regret.
You are absolutely right, Louise: You have to look at what they DONT say…that’s where the truth is.
Dupey