Several weeks ago I introduced the idea that lying is the cardinal symptom of sociopathy/psychopathy. I believe that every sociopath/psychopath compulsively lies. Judging from the number of comments to the article, The cardinal sign of sociopathy: Every sociopath ______! you all agree with me. Since every sociopath lies, it is reasonable to ask if we can use lying behavior to help us identify sociopaths. The problem is that from time to time nearly everyone lies for any number of reasons, so lying is a rather non-specific finding in a person. It is instead pathologic lying that characterizes sociopaths and psychopaths.
In a recent paper, Pathological Lying Revisited (J Am Acad Psychiatry Law 33:342—9, 2005), Dr. Charles Dike and colleagues from Yale University discuss pathologic lying. They define pathologic lying as, “falsification entirely disproportionate to any discernible end in view, may be extensive and very complicated, and may manifest over a period of years or even a lifetime.” To translate, pathologic liars tell elaborate tales and the motivation for telling these tales is not always financial gain. Pathologic liars lie for pleasure, sometimes even when the truth sounds better. However, lying is by definition an interpersonal process, where one person attempts to impact another. In my opinion, there is always obvious gain in lying in that the end is impacting another person’s view of reality.
In support of the argument that the gain of pathologic lying is impacting another person’s view of reality, some have suggested that the root of pathologic lying is a person’s desire to play the role of the person depicted in the lie. There is a double consciousness in which two forms of life run side by side, the actual and the desired/depicted. In the liar’s mind the fantasy role and real life are not entirely separated. The role becomes the focus of the liar’s consciousness and that is why pathologic liars lie so easily.
Pathologic lying can be found in other conditions besides sociopathy and psychopathy. It has also been described in borderline personality disorder. But remember that this condition has been suggested by some to be very similar to sociopathy. Prominent clinicians have asserted that pathologic lying does not occur outside of psychopathy. In an important paper written in 1942, The psychiatric aspects of the pathological liar (Nerv Child 1:335—50), Dr. Selling said that “obvious mental disease, particularly a diagnosable psychopathic personality of some type” was responsible for pathologic lying.
Lest you now feel confident that you can diagnose sociopathy and/or psychopathy in your pathologic liar, I have to tell you that Dr. Cleckley himself stated that pathologic lying could occur in “normal people.” In a foot note on page 33 of The Mask of Sanity you will find the following quote:
“Such traits can occasionally be found even in wise and reliable people. A highly regarded and respected friend of mine, a doctor of philosophy, recently appointed professor of physics in a small but distinguished college, and the author of several useful and accurate contributions to scientific literature, is the first who comes to mind. This distinguished man has often regaled groups of acquaintances, myself among them, with accounts of working his way through the university by playing professional ice hockey at night, later setting type on a newspaper for several hours, rising before daylight to stoke tugboats on the waterfront, riding thirty-four miles to a high school to teach one subject and thirty-four miles back, as well as keeping house in a three-room apartment shared with six aviators and relieving the janitor of the building one hour during each twenty-four. All these activities were spoken of as being carried out simultaneously and along with full-time work at the university. He described in great detail and with apparent familiarity the duties of these positions. His only studying, he said, was done on the subway en route to his various duties. The same friend once came up from behind while another man and I were commenting on the height of a cliff on which we stood. The hazards of a dive from the position were being idly discussed. The newcomer at once estimated, probably with commendable accuracy, the height, the angle of landing, and all the technicalities of such a dive. He then launched into an astonishing description of a dive he had made in early youth from a bridge 167 feet above the Guadalquiver. One of the students to whom this excellent scholar lectures stated that it is the custom for each succeeding class to tabulate his adventures and their duration in these pseudoreminiscences and there from compute his age. The top figure so far is 169 years. Several classes have bettered 150. The students have great respect for him and confidence in him, as a teacher and as a man. They are particularly devoted to him. Let it be clearly understood that the person discussed in this footnote is not being brought forward as illustrative of the subject of this study. He is no part of a psychopath. He is, in fact, a character whose essential traits lie at the opposite extreme. The reminiscences here ascribed to him are not told boastfully or for the purpose of shielding himself or of gaining any material end. He is strikingly free of arrogance, kind to a remarkable degree, and altogether worthy of his strong reputation as a good and reliable man. His word in any practical matter is to be respected.”
The bolding in the words above is mine. Could Dr. Cleckley himself have missed grandiosity and psychopathy in his friend? I don’t know. Why would a humble person, with no desire to impact others, engage in pathologic lying? Dr. Cleckley says the lying was not boastful, but it does sound like bragging to me.
I think the point Dr. Cleckley made in this footnote is that for him, harm done to others is a defining quality of psychopathy (sociopathy). He knew of no instance where his friend had caused harm to others. The point of harm done is very important to the readers of this blog, many of whom are searching for definitive proof that the person who has done great harm to others financially, emotionally, psychologically and/or spiritually is a sociopath/psychopath. The only definitive proof of psychopathy according to experts like Dr. Hare is a PCL-R score over 30. It is very rare for a victim to have the benefit of an official PCL-R score on a perpetrator.
As I read the scientific literature, I am struck by the fact that many people psychiatrists would consider psychopaths do not in fact score over 30 on the PCL-R. To make matters worse there are many who score 20-29 on the PCL-R who have done great harm. Remember, Dr. Hare initially intended his scale to predict recidivism, it is only recently the scale has been used to define psychopathy.
I am passionate about my believe that the combination of harm done to others and personality attributes be used to define sociopathy/psychopathy. We know that not all unempathetic or callous individuals do harm to others. Furthermore, not all who do harm to others do so because they are callous and unempathetic. It is the combination of harm and personality type that is the real issue.
In conclusion then, if a pathological liar has done great harm to you, s/he is most certainly a sociopath/psychopath.
Dupey, I feel that lying-by-omission is absolutely worse than out-and-out lying. The main reason is that the “LBO” factors in to every agenda that spath has – from gaslighting to financial fraud.
How many times can readers remember the spath in their life (mother,father, sibling, lover, coworker, etc.) say to their face with unwavering eye contact, “I never SAID that.”
Never “said” what? That you were a sneak, cheat, theif, con, and contemptable wretch?
The “LBO” are a powerful ingredient in crazymaking, as well. I can’t recall how many times the exspath would say that exact phrase, “I never SAID that.” So, in SpathWorld, unless it is SPOKEN, then it doesn’t exist.
And, how they flounder when they’re called out on “LBO!” The exspath would stammer, splutter, and become all KINDS of indignant, and he STILL tried to convince me of his truthful honesty, at all times. “I’m not LIKE that,” or “I’ll never abuse you like THAT.”
Oh, my……….what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive………
Brightest blessings on this dangerously hot day – stay cool and hydrated everyone!!!!
Okay, so lying has its many motives, but one of the most important motives is (IMHO) for the purposes of gaslighting and crazymaking. I’m not saying that a pathological liar wakes up each morning and says to themselves, “Today, I’m going to lie-by-omission so that I can cause my spouse to believe something that will generate trust, and I’ll use that omission to indicate that I ‘never really said that’ so that they firmly believe that they’ve lost their minds.” No, of course they don’t do this.
But, the result of the LBO is that victims do, indeed, begin to believe that they’ve misheard something, misinterpreted, or have downright lost their minds. The exspath had already launched a campaign of gaslighting a couple of years before the initial discovery. OFTEN, he would claim, “I never said that,” and, in very few cases, it was true that he didn’t “SAY” it, but he sure-as-hayell inferred it! “You’re losing your memory,” was one of his pet sayings as he is much younger than I am. ANYONE ELSE had this exact quote regurtitated on them when they questioned the spaths about facts or quotes??
Some good discussion on “crazymaking” from “The Path Forward” blog by Lisa Scott:
http://www.lisaescott.com/2010/11/15/crazymaking-behavior-narcissist
Truthspeak:
No, they don’t wake up and think I am going to lie and say this and that today. It’s so ingrained in them, they don’t think about it at all…it comes very naturally to them and THAT is what is scary!!! That is why sometimes it is so hard to detect…it’s just part of them, who they are and it’s part of their nature.
Truthspeak: I feel the same way about LBO.
Oh yes, the “I never said that” move. The ‘crazymaking’ parts. I remember them well. I was stronger than “IT” though and I think “IT” may have been the one making “ITSELF” crazier than “IT” already was to begin with. I actually feel ‘sorry’ for the horrid people who have approached me on this journey, ‘minions’ in every sense of the word. They are not my problem. “IT” is not my problem. I have been twisted around, jerked, turned upside down, threatened, you name it and I am still here. Not because of the ‘being’ but IN SPITE OF IT. I am the stronger one.
Oh yes, my first mistake was listening and opening the door and caring in the first place. And I have been told: “It was YOU that was caring and giving it, I just took it. What is wrong with YOU that you allowed it to happen?” THAT is the logic and reasoning of a psychopath/sociopath.
The only difference between me and the other dupesters in his twisted world, is that “I” DONT believe a word that comes out of his mouth anymore. In fact, it’s just over. Period. NC all the way for me. I am NEVER going back to that nonsense. And that is exactly what I told “IT” when I said GOOD BYE for the final time. I meant every single word I have ever said to “IT” and now “IT” knows it, without a doubt.
GET THEE BEHIND ME SATAN.
Yes, Louise, their evilness is an ingrained part of them. They don’t think about their awfulness, at all. In fact, when I mentioned a person ‘changing’ and having to reflect upon oneself to effect that change, I was told:
“I don’t have time for reflection…”
How scarey is that? Hm?
Can you imagine a person living a life without personal reflection? I can’t. I will always believe, despite what the professionals tell me, that PEOPLE ARE CAPABLE OF CHANGE but ONLY IF THEY TRULY WANT IT. These people could care less about change. That is way too hard for them. Professionals keep trying to convince me that yes, there are people in this life who do NOT have the conscience nor strength as others of us. Not capable of effecting that change in themselves. That it isn’t them I should be focusing upon, but myself. I will never believe that people are incapable of change, physiologically, because I believe that it is a choice. It’s a CHOICE to be the way they are. I absolutely believe that. But, I am open to listening and reasoning another thought on this matter. My defense is MY LIFE and that I CHOSE to be different than a psychopath because of my hardships. And, that is REALLY the point, isn’t it?
Dupey
Louise;
About a month ago, I was messaged on a gay social application by somebody close to Newark Airport. When I looked at his thumbnail picture, I did a double-take as he looked much like the x-spath. Thankfully he was not, but the resemblance was strong. And the guy of course is a flight attendant on a flight to Newark.
I started chatting with him and he seemed nice. I told him I could not meet him that night, which was fine by him as the said he wanted to chat… So we chatted a bit and I he asked me if I wanted to meet for a beer the next night, as he was coming back again. I told him I was free, we chatted a bit and then I seemed to loose him.
The next day, out of the blue he messages me, telling me he “fell asleep” the night before. I asked him if we were meeting for a beer and he became a bit evasive.
At this point, the whole situation has an eerie resemblance to one I had with the x-spath: flight attendant on a layover at Newark Airport, being evasive about meeting me, at the same time seeming interested…
Then he got pointedly sexual, so I asked him if he was HIV+. His response — yes.
Well, at least this one was honest…
BBE:
Wow, that is eerie! You are right…at least he was honest.
So why did he become evasive…was it like he wanted to meet, but then was apprehensive because he knew he was HIV+?
BBE…..omigosh….that is WAY too eerie and, thankfully, he appeared to be truthful about HIV+.
I have NO intention of entertaining another “relationship,” ever again. This doesn’t mean that I hate men or that I don’t believe that healthy relationships exist – just not for me.
A couple of months ago, someone glibly suggested that I “give women a try,” to which I responded, “Do you honestly believe that sociopathy is only reserved for hetero males?” Lots of snickering and an abrupt view of my back closed the subject, instantly.
BBE…it’s tough to meet “normal” potential parnters, these days. You’ll meet someone that doesn’t have an agenda when the “time is right,” I’m sure.
Hugs
Louise and Truthspeak;
The conversation was exactly like one with the x-spath. First, he tells me he is going on a flight to Newark Airport. When I tell him I could meet him for a beer, he becomes evasive, then agrees to me.
In the case of the x-spath, it was a question of how I would get home. Being from London, the x-spath did not realize the NYC transportation system runs 24X7…
This very conversation with the x-spath made me think he was hiding something. I spoke to three friends about him. One told me that regardless of anything, he is a flake and to dump him. The second told me that he was probably insecure about his body (there is some truth to this) and maybe I was intimidating him. The third friend happened to be a woman who several months before started dating a British guy. She said British guys are cold until you get to know them and that maybe I was moving too fast for him.
I believed the woman. Then, in conversation, when the x-spath told me that “it takes him a while to warm up to people…” I figured she was right.
Thankfully, I did not ignore the red flags this time, hence asking the guy if he is HIV+. In addition, and I hope I do not offended any gay male flight attendants here, in my book now they very much fit the stereotype of guy in every city party boy. I dismissed this stereotype when I fell for the x-spath’s mask. I did not dismiss it a second time.
I do have to wonder if I had not asked the guy, would he have told me…
BBE…..prolly not – it might have ended up a LBO – lie by omission. Who can say?
I think you were very smart!! Didn’t this recent event give you a sense of control and boundaries? AWESOME!!
I won’t ever have to worry about asking anyone that question! LOL
BBE please do post your story.
Yes, lies of omission all over the place. Makes my skin crawl.
Athena