I do my best to read all of the comments on lovefraud.com because I think they are a good barometer as to what people are thinking and questioning. One recent theme/question has been the issue of the realm of jerkdom. Just what is a jerk?
Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary defines a jerk as an annoyingly stupid or foolish person b: an unlikable person ; especially one who is cruel, rude, or small-minded. But how would a psychologist approach answering this question?
Psychologists studying personality tend to fall into two categories, with members of the first category being far more numerous. The first category of psychologists is composed of trait psychologists. A trait psychologist is someone who studies personality by looking at traits. Traits are words, primarily adjectives that are used to describe people.
The dictionary says jerks are foolish, unlikeable, rude, cruel and small minded. We might take the process further and ask everyone reading this to list adjectives describing jerks. We would then find jerks and make our own determination as to whether or not the adjectives describe them.
This trait approach is similar to that used to identify sociopaths and narcissists. This process allows us to put people in a category. So with this approach, we could find traits that differentiate between jerks, narcissists an sociopaths. Most of us think of traits when we think about people and personality.
There is another way to look at people and personality that considers motives rather than traits. Although the fundamental motives of love, power and achievement exist in all people there are individual differences in the degree to which these motives rule a person.
A motive psychologist might say that a jerk is someone with too little love motivation and too much power motivation. But then that also describes a sociopath and a narcissist. Aren’t motives after all more basic than traits? If you are interacting with someone, aren’t you most interested in understanding that person’s motives as opposed to observing their traits?
Consider the following letter we received this week:
There are certain things about my daughter-in-law that I just don’t understand. I am not a psychologist so I don’t know for fact what is wrong with her.
She and my son had a rocky relationship before marriage. She was pulling him away from his best friend but was herself going to spend time with the guy after she dropped my son off at work. She played them off of each other until they just went their separate ways. It was always his best friends fault.
This is what truly hurts me….. after she married my son they lived with my husband and I. We worked long hours and came home to a mess. She and my son neither one worked but expected us to clean up after her. She would cook and I was to play maid. When this didn’t go over she belittled me. She asked to talk to me privately. There wasn’t one thing about me she liked. She told me that she was tired of fighting for my sons attention. They moved out to my relief. I took what she said to heart and didn’t contact my son for anything. I left it to him to contact me if he needed me. This hurt him even though I explained I didn’t want to come in between them.
They had a beautiful daughter and she uses her against us at every turn. We have gotten used to it and don’t let her get satisfaction from it any more. She has planted pills on the floor of my mother-in-law’s home to make it look like her home isn’t safe. She has done that scam twice. She has told my other daughter-in-law that she is only with my son because he puts up with things other men wouldn’t. She has admitted to sleeping with other men but made it out to my son that she was made to share a blanket. I am truly worried for my son and his daughter. She is such a good liar. Oh by the way she makes it out as if she is the only person capable of watching my granddaughter. At my grandma’s funeral she became angry with my son for not catching the baby before she put chalk in her mouth. but then she didn’t catch her stick a holly berry in her mouth and that was ok. She was too busy flirting with my son’s cousin who btw is working on his masters”¦
Am I a paranoid mother and grandmother that just needs to continue watching people she loves be hurt? Or is there maybe something to this behavior?
What do you think?
Dear PB,
At the risk of offending you, I think you are “feeling guilty” and that you are allowing his “pity ploy” to iinfluence your feelings for him.
He had a hard childhood–so did I, and so did many people on here who were deeply wounded by rape, incest, and abuse of all sorts, and WE are not using others and feeling entitled to being supported by others, we do not lie in the face of EVIDENCE to the contrary. That behavior ALONE is almost “diagnostic” of psychopathic thinking.
Having been in your shoes, and thinking to myself that my son’s “broken home” (divorce from his mentally ill father and the chaos surrounding that) might have influenced him to the negative, I realized that people with much greater traumas in their lives are NOT users.
Anyoone who does not take responsibility, does not admit that they have done a bad deed (ESPECIALLY when “caught red handed”) is to me indicating that they are psychopathic, and because psychopaths really do not have a complete conscience, even if they do have a rudimentary one, (they do know right from wrong, just don’t care) I think your son is leaning to the “dark side.” I personally know how painful it is to give up the “hope” that ANY parent who loves their kid would have. Your son’s father also sounds like a psychopath and he couldn’t have been a good environment for your son, or even an adequate parent. So it appears to me your son got a “double whammy” of bad genes, and a poor environment as well, but the ENVIRONMENT ALONE wouldn’t likely produce the son you describe.
What I am saying at the bottom line is, that YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE for your son having a “bad life” or being “deserted” by his parents—HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS LIFE NOW, no matter what kiind of childhood he had. He obviously had ONE GOOD and caring parent, and I agree, you should keep your distance from him. His lack of insight, his trying to guilt you etc. (and you having some pity for him as well) would make you his perfect “victim.” Just as I was a perfect victim for my son…because I loved him. Now I see him for what he is, for the evil that is in his soul. I am glad that your son is apparently not as evil as mine, but I know that is not much comfort to you as a mother. We want the best for our children and I know that I kept thinking I could find the “magic key” to reach mine. But like the “search for the Holy GRail”–that magic key search is futile. Disengaging is the only hope for US, and there is no hope for them.
I had to look at what my son DID vs what he SAID, and oh, yes, he played the pity ploy well, and is continuing to do so with my mother. But I will never fall for it again. (((((hugs)))))
Heh! I remember telling my son once, that by his logic I should be Charles Manson – my two parents had nine marriages between them! Sorry! It smarts, and I don’t want to take away from his genuine feelings, but it does not excuse bad behavior.
I do feel a bit guilty – but only a teeny bit, and I think that’s normal and okay. But I cannot, and will not, be held responsible for what he does or doesn’t do with his life now. I’ve told him this outright.
It’s much the same as the N trying to convince me that I was crazy and responsible for his anger…NOT A CHANCE! Whatever I DID do, doesn’t rate the abuse…No!
I’ve never been a “not MY precious boy!” mother. I gave up on the “magic key” years ago, and I’ve served his butt up on a platter when it was the right thing to do. I also knew when he was 12 that I was going to have to listen to his g/f’s if I really wanted to know what he was about.
Maybe had I not had the life I’ve had, he could make me feel guilty all the time, or whenever he wants, but I’m quite certain I wasn’t put here to be a whipping post for others – no matter how much I care/d.
He tried to get me to go to court with him last year and I refused. He thought it would look good to have me there. First off, I stopped being involved in his legal stuff years ago, and secondly, “It may have looked good when you were 14, but you’re an adult and it would only look pathetic to have your mom in court now.”
Hmmm…My ex-Husband thinks both son and I over-react to his “piss test” remark, and that we’re making a big deal out of nothing. Ex-H never held a job (my main reason for splitting up with him). He was insanely jealous and a bit paranoid. He followed his first wife with a camera, and ultimately broke her nose. He’s been a house-husband to wife #3 for the last 20 years.
Gee, maybe that’s why son thinks the world owes him; he’s never seen his father work. In fact, in his world, women have always taken care of everything!
Pb: I hate to tell you my opinion on the court issue, but, no matter how old a person is … it is always positive when family members attend court proceedings. It is telling the court that this person is loved by family members, no matter what he/she did that brought them into court … plus, it makes the person think (for once) that all his/her family members took time off from work to be in court with them and to knock their nonsense off.
Either way, it shows family unity, no matter what the idiot did.
Peace.
Being in court is one of the major serious issues a person can encounter in their life. Even if it’s to be on jury duty.
Peace.
I have a dear friend that has a narcissist daughter – I have finally convinced her of this. My friend live’s in constant anxiety and depression because of her daughter’s antic’s. I have suggested a few books for her to read and she said she agreed but’ how do I live with this’? I have learned so much about PDO’s but am at a loss as to how to help a mother in her 60’s cope with a narcissist daughter in her 40’s. Any book suggestions? Also I would like to say that there are good people everywhere and I don’t focus on PDO people, but when one is obvious and a friend is in pain because of loving a child that causes such pain, I want to help….thanks gang
Henry, SHE CAN’T LIVE WITH IT, she needs to toss the WOMAN out on her ear. She should not be supporting an N in her own home.
My sons are here right now, but it is not a case of “supporting” bums…and, this is MY HOME, and while they live here, it is them who have to get along with me, not the other way round. MY HOME. MY RULES.
My farm is a sanctuary, not a prison, and anyone who doesn’t like the way the “warden” runs the sanctuary can leave. LOL
In fact, I told son C that once when he was an older teenager and grousing about something…no bars, no one is stopping you from leaving….it is a priviledge to be able to live here, not a punishment…don’t like it….go elsewhere. I don’t OWE you a roof over your head. You don’t owe me a tongue lashing about the rules in MY home, paid for by ME.
I know people have problems with this. (I’ve had problems with this) She is obviously enabling her daughter, so I suggest
“THE ENABLER, WHEN HELPING HURTS THE ONES YOU LOVE” by Angelyn Miller, MA.
It’s a small book and easy to understand and well written, I think your friend might be able to see herself in it.
Then get her one on setting boundaries…another need I have/had.
thanks oxy but the daughter does not live with her – the daughter has a rich husband to keep her ego supplied and looks down her nose at her mother and only contact’s her when she needs something – too long of a story to go into but I do know this daughter is a N and was hoping for some book references. thanks i will right that down///
Henry: First rule of thumb when trying to figure out a problem … is get that sheet of paper, put a line down the center of the paper … Left Column is Good stuff about the daughter, Right Column is Bad stuff about the daughter.
It’s taking what is pushed in the subconscious mind out front to the conscious mind.
When your friend finishes pages and pages of the Bad stuff (RIGHT Column) about her daughter, she’ll see it for herself in black and white. No one can deny the thoughts they put down in writing … and she does this in private without her N daughter’s manipulation in the environment. Take her out for lunch Henry … for a few hours and give her the pad and pen and let her write away. Bring a box of tissues!
Peace.
Yes Wini, I hear you…and there was a time.
I did go to court for years (and jail visits, PO meetings, counselors, teachers, etc) – numerous times, but it got to the point where it was becoming a problem for me at work. Being a single parent, I had to provide a home for both of us, and I had to work to do that.
As for the court date last year…I’ve been dealing with the N, our court date, and trying to recover (not working much and flat-a**ed broke). My sons court appearance was in another city and I couldn’t even afford to get there, never mind the $10,000 bail. I was in a shelter when he was arrested last time.
I’ve done it all, and to engage in his legal affairs now is nothing more than me enabling him. He pulls out the repentant lost soul speech – usually while outright lying about, or minimizing, his involvement in whatever he did.
One time, I went to get my son released after my nephew called saying something about “armed robbery”. My son said he was “with someone who stole a pair of jeans”. Months later I found the police deposition in the closet and three of them had stolen $4000 worth of expensive jeans and his buddy pepper sprayed the clerks on the way out.
My doctor put it very well recently, “Be careful reaching out to a drowning man; sometimes they pull you down with them”
Besides, if you’re gonna go breaking into peoples homes or stores, and ripping off dealers and grow-ops, then you either get good at it, get killed, or you go to jail. I think most of us know that.
Henry: What’s a “PDO”? Are there any other siblings to help mom out? Do mom and daughter live together; how much contact do they have to have?
PDO personality disorder – know they dont live together – yes one other daughter that refuses to take anymore abuse from the N sister – very little contact