By | August 12, 2009 100 Comments

LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: I am losing control as a parent

Editor’s note: A Lovefraud reader, who uses the name Samantha, has sent the following letter. She’s looking for suggestions and feedback.

I was married for 12 years to a sociopath who was a minister and had 3 affairs ”¦ it took me that many to finally “get it.” We had 2 children who were 6 and 8 when I finally filed for divorce 4 years ago. It’s been an ugly 4 years. During that time, I have worked as a teacher part-time making $22,000 a year with no benefits. I have been putting myself through school to get licensed in special ed so I can get into the public schools. I am almost there and got a new job this year. It’s not public school and still not any more money, but it’s special ed and will give me the experience I need to get in the public schools next fall ”¦ I’m almost there! (At least I get benefits this year ”¦ YEA!)

Anyway, I only state that to show my character ”¦ showing that I am doing everything I can to try to provide a stable life for my children.

While I’ve been doing that, my ex-husband has been working for himself (along with his wife) out of his $750,000 home and driving his $42,000 Cadillac and $40,000 expedition. They have traveled all over the country with and without the kids and have just spent an enormous amount of money. I started getting a call about 2 months ago from a collection agency looking for my ex saying that he owes $87,000 on a credit card and I’m a supplementary card holder. (I don’t think I’ll be responsible because I have not made any of those charges ”¦ meeting with an attorney tomorrow). Well, now he’s filing Chapter 7 bankruptcy. He got mad at me back in April and told me he wasn’t going to pay child support ever again (wish I had that on tape) ”¦ and he hasn’t. He is 13 weeks behind and is also refusing to pay for 1/2 of our son’s braces. So, he owes me ~$6,000. I have been working with the courts, but they do not seem too concerned about this ”¦ they just keep warning him.

He is also doing some horrible things with my kids and I am losing control as a parent. He is taking my daughter to counseling and won’t tell me who she’s going to and my daughter won’t tell me either (he has apparently made her too scared to tell me), he has allowed my children to get “facebook” pages and will not allow them to tell me their passwords so I can monitor them, he has pulled my son off his baseball team and placed him on a new one (this has created so much anger in the community and my son will never be welcome on that team again). These are a few of his controlling parenting issues.

Financially, he and his wife both work for her father now. Since he has stopped paying child support, they have gone to Cancun, FL (twice), New York, 2 concerts, and have spent money on other unnecessary items.

He is accusing me of being an unfit mother and telling me that if I don’t let him have 50/50 time, then he will take me to court to fight for full custody. I told him to take me ”¦ I have a thick binder full of emails, pictures, and facebook comments that help prove his character, and financial irresponsibility ”¦ not to mention alcohol ”¦ they drink like fish when my kids are around and when they aren’t. A little side note, when they were in Mexico, my 12 year old son was served alcohol and drank it because no one was around to supervise him (his 17 year old step brother who didn’t care).

I have been fighting for my children for the past 4 years and I am getting tired (his hope of course). I hate living in this town hate being near him and having to deal with him. It is ruining my relationship with my boyfriend, and I’m pretty much miserable. I don’t have any respect for our legal system because they don’t understand sociopaths and my lawyer tells me that she’ll never be able to get me and my children what we deserve. I am so tempted to just pick up and move 1/2 way across the country to be near my dad. I know that would be doing a disservice to my children, but I don’t know if I can live like this for 8 more years (until they are in college). If I were to move, the courts would decide which parent gets the children. Since he’s here, it would probably be him.

I guess I’m looking for support ”¦ any advice ”¦ any tips ”¦ anything. I am tired!


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Ox Drover

Dear Mother,

I am so sorry you are having this trouble with your X P but it is I am afraid, so TYPICAL it is almost diagnostic of psychopathy. It is not an easy thing to live with, endure or to fight. Because they have no conscience, they feel at liberty to scheme up things to do to your children that will make you upset, and to not care what it also does to your children.

KNOWLEDGE=POWER and I suggest that you go to the blog of Dr. Leedom (it is listed on the left side of LF ) and you will have some support there on dealing with your x and helping safeguard your children from his manipulations. It will not be easy, I know that, but I have laerned that having support and understanding from people going through the same thing helps.

I also suggest you read the book “Legal Abuse Syndrome” (available in the lovefraud store) which is a book on how the Ps manipulate the legal system against victims, and it also gives some good advice on how to heal and endure this at the same time.

You are between a rock and a hard place, because your husband knows you love your children and he knows he can EXTRACT EMOTIONAL BLOOD FROM YOU by doing things to them. I wish I had the answer that would make it all OK for you, but I do suggest you consult an attorney at least for advice, even if you cannot afford to hire them to go to court with you.

God bless you, and your children, stay strong even when you feel like you can’t go on another minute!!!! ((((hugs)))))

Elizabeth Conley

Dear Mother,

My heart goes out to you.

It sounds to me like your ex is doing things that are probably illegal.

Can a child’s counselor really interact with the child while avoiding interacting with the custodial parent? Is that legal? I wonder.

Can a child really have a face book account without the child’s custodial parent having full access to it? I wonder. It sounds to me as if you need to discuss this with whoever runs face book. I know nothing about face book, but this sounds extremely fishy to me.

In the process of figuring out who your daughter’s counselor is and what on earth is going on there, you might get still more hard evidence of malfeasance on the X’s part. Ditto with the face book accounts. I think he’s leaving quite a paper trail with all this acting out.

Working for a relative or friend is a time honored way for shysters to hide income and avoid paying debts.

You have a very low income, particularly for a family of three. You have not mentioned any public assistance, and yet I’m confident you qualify for housing and food stamps, free vaccines and some other types of aid. I suggest you apply for everything you can. In doing so, you will set social services on your X’s tail. Once they understand that you qualify for aid because he hasn’t paid child support, they’ll start to hound him mercilessly. Essentially, his debt to you will translate into a debt to them. They won’t get tired the way you have. They’ll hound him to the grave if necessary. His interactions with them will only add to the pile of documented malfeasance stacking up against him.

You may eventually be able to squeeze every penny of child support out of him, although not in the way you hope. For every penny of Aid the State expends on your behalf, they will garnish from his Federal and State Tax returns. They will be relentless. If he’s really stubborn, they may eventually garnish it from his social security checks.

The best way to hurt an S is to cause his misbehavior to be a problem to as many impersonal large organizations as possible. Facebook won’t risk a lawsuit to support his clearly illegal behavior, nor will a smart counselor. The local, state and federal government will be relentless in squeezing back child support from him once his debt to you becomes a de-facto debt to them.



Elizabeth Conley

One of the ways your X “wins” is to seem to your children to be more pleasant to be around.

This is why you need to get cheerful, even though it feels next to impossible. I suggest you find as many free and cheap amusements as possible, and participate with the kids when you can. I highly recommend you join a sane church. They will help you with this.

It will also be necessary to speak to as few people as possible about your problems with the X. Your relationship with your boyfriend, for example, cannot be dragged into your battle against the X. You need to be able to block his incessant crazy-making, and deal with his legal infractions in a productive, cut-and-dried manner. This is really, really, hard. I promise it’s worth the effort. Do this, and you’ll win an important victory over the X.


Dear Mother:
It’s all a nasty horrible game to them!
STAND YOUR GROUND…..find strength to keep going….you have to be in it for the long haul…YOU CAN”T GIVE UP NOW!!!
Any way you can go for a ‘modified’ legal custody order with all you have documented?
He can have no ‘veto’ powers.
This will prevent the ‘anonymous’ counseling situation, facebook situation and anything else he is doing without your knowledge.
It’s about the safety of the children.
If you live in a small town……I would certainly be on the horn, calling around to see ‘who’ your childs therapist is.
It’s great she is in counseling….yet….the suspicious anonymity is a concern.
As a parent you have the right to know.
Does your child have health insurance…..even if it’s through him….call the insurance carrier and ask for a printout email copy of her recent charges. This will reveal the therapist or firm. (assuming he runs it through insurance).
You have rights as a parent…..
If this info is still unavailable…..get it from the courts.
He is obviously brainwashing your children….you need to ‘up the anty’ with them, to protect what is going on.
Expect a fight from them too, but explain to them….’we hold no secrets’ and I am your mother.
Allow them to use YOUR computer to visit their facebook accounts…..when they are done….go into your ‘history’ page and you can click on where they were in facebook. Bookmark this page and it will take you in every time. This way you can at least monitor who/what/where they are doing and revealing online.
I go onto my childrens facebook and myspace…’s just amazing the personal info they reveal oline…….YIKES! It doesn’t matter what you teach them…..they do not understand the dangers…..and the S doesn’t think deep enough to care!
This is my offering to you……
I wish you strength and power in your fight for the safety and well being of your children.


Dear Mother (Samantha),

My stomach is churning so bad after reading your post I probably should wait to respond to you.

For what it’s worth, one of the 4 reasons I endured my controlling “marriage” to my “empty suit” for so long – 45.5 years and didn’t try harder to get out when our 4 children were minors, and then after the grandchildren started coming was because I KNEW he woud do what your EX is doing to you. Believe me, my staying didn’t “work.” He suceeded in fooling the lawyers, the courts, the legal system and brainwashing the adult CHILDREN anyway (but not the grandchildren, PTL! He didn’t care “two hoots” about them).

So, I am so glad you got out 4 years ago, no matter how hard it is now!!! Staying longer would only have made the problems you are facing now that much worse and harder — and you much older!

I think EC and EB and Oxy and have given you good advice and other than offering my emotional support, I can add nothing more at this time.

I do “contest” one small part of Oxy’s message, though, “…because your husband knows you love your children.” Perhaps there is some aspect of “knowing you love them” in him but I highly doubt it. Instead, he can’t love so can’t even comprehend your love for them. To him, they are possessions and he OWNS them. He will do all in his power to WIN them away from you — just as if they were a money transaction. Please investigate this part of the equation so you know what kind of battle you are fighting on their behalf.

I’ll write more later but I just wanted to be sure you were aware of how your EX views the children, not as a normal person, for sure.



I can’t add much to the excellent advice you’ve received here already. I’m writing to let you know I read your post, and I appreciate what you’re going through for yourself and your children.

My Dad was an alcoholic whose behavior became that of a sociopath when he drank. My Mom knew we needed to leave but she simply didn’t have the strength or resources to do it. So I grew up in a combat zone, and have spent my life dealing the the effects.

Making the break is courageous; it is also a long war because someone that imbalanced won’t break contact until he decides it’s no longer entertaining or worth his while to keep tormenting.

My only advice is to respect your limits: you are in effect functioning in a combat area now, so it’s in your best interest to pay attention to how tired you feel, and set about making some plans to take care of your basic needs. You need sufficient sleep, and even a little downtime, even if it’s only a fifteen-minute drive listening to your favorite music, and periodic rest, even if you can grab five minutes of quite time. Keep it up every day, anything to keep your batteries charged. I learned how valuable this is from watching my Mom. Don’t put yourself last on the list.

I’m so sorry that you’re going through this awful time, and I hope you catch many good breaks. Being here can help you so much! Read, read, read here when you can — these folks get it, and many are parents in your situation.

Keep coming back!

All the best,


The reason that I posted in the first place was that I knew I would get support from people who completely understand what I’m going through…’s getting worse daily though.

In meeting with the bankruptcy lawyer, my name may be on some of the credit cards. When we were married, I’m sure we signed joint cards…but I never kept the cards. So, when we divorced, I didn’t have any cards to cancel. When I pulled up my credit report, they did not show up because I’m not the primary card holder. So, now, if he files bankruptcy, they will come after me and a divorce decree does not overrule a credit card company. So, the fact that I have very little debt, a good savings account and equity in my house, means only that the credit card companies will come and take all that. All because my ex! So, where does that leave me and the kids?

I am absolutely hopeless right now. I don’t think I have the strength to do this. If I lose everything I’ve fought for, how will I survive? I would have to move in with my dad (1/2 way across the country) and what would happen to the kids? Why is our legal system so helpuful to criminals and not to the people trying to do it right? Where is my justice? Why isn’t there anyone who can help me?

Ox Drover

Dear Samantha,

I am so sorry that you are going through all of this, and that you feel so helpless. It may not be as bad as you possibly think, and you may not be as helpless as you think.

I am NOT an attorney, and I know bankruptcy laws have changed in the past few years (as well as vary from state to state somewhat) but you should I think CONSULT an attorney ASAP about the equity in your house, and your other assets so that you can take advantage of the fact that the card companies have NOT YET come after you.

In my state a home’s equity cannot be attached in a bankruptcy, in some states I know it is a certain amount of equity can’t be attached, but the rest can. So you need to KNOW what the laws of your state are. You might be able to google and find out some stuff on line, but a consultation with an attorney who specializes in bankruptcy is a good idea. Sometimes they will give you the first consultation free in hopes you will hire them.

As for savings in cash etc. I would get that taken out of your name in a bank and have some put back where no one knew about it. Don’t put it in someone else’s name though unless you are absolutely sure that even if they died, you could get your money back. You can also buy postal money orders from the US post office (keep a record of the serial numbers) and also travelers checks and make them out to yourself and those would be untraceable pretty much and fairly safe, much safer than “greenbacks” in case of fire or theft.

Protect yourself anyway you can, but DO NOT GIVE UP and don’t feel hopeless if you can help it. You are NOT without ways to surive even if it seems like you are!!!

Yes, the “IN-justice system” does give criminals an advantage, but sometimes we have to find ways around this to protect ourselves. Good luck. You are NOT ALONE, and there IS SUPPORT HERE!!! (((Hugs))) and God bless you and your children.


Samatha. I plan to respond to you in depth (I identify with your plight) after I get home from my sister’s funeral.

But, I can’t help but agree with Oxy’s plan to consult a lawyer about this. Any knowledgeable new lawyer, that is. It is true that the first hour for questions is free of charge.

Then, if there is any way you can get the names of the credit cards, you can write to them directly to remove your name from them. A lawyer could help you with this.

I got my name off of all but one of them. (EX handled ALL the money and made all kinds of decisions without my input.) My letter to remove myself from the others included that fact. I was “heard.”

Good luck to you. Writing those letters when one is upset is HARD but if I could do it, so can you. We are women. Hear us roar!


BTW, I didn’t use a lawyer to write my letters. Once you get the credit card names you CAN do it yourself after the lawyer explains what you should write.


Dear Mother,

I also am a mother who was left with 2 kids and no support. I remember one Xmas we had $50 dollars to survive for 15 days. I made it a chanllenge for the kids (offcourse they did not know I had only $50) .The challenge was : how little can we live on a dayly basis to donate money to the poor kids for Xmas. We never knew that chicken wings was so good for Xmas..Until today we have chicken wings for Xmas. We managed to survive the 15 days at Xmas with $50 and the kids felt so good. It was like a game for them and they won the game.. Just ideas to make things easier for you…

Keep coming back here and you will get a lot of support and great ideas to overcome all the difficulties you are facing now.

Big hug!


I brought up three kids totally on my own, I worked and raised them, without any support from their fathers. In Oz there was no enforcement. But I hear it is starting to change. It was a waste of time…If I had known how the two oldest would turn out I wouldn’t have bothered. Two of them are cluster B’s. The youngest is the only one capable of love. Now i only see him occasionally but I live for those days.

Ox Drover

Dear Samantha,

You are among one of the brightest, toughest group of men and women on the planet I think, she hasn’t posted here, but one of our members, Bird (I’ve seen her on the threads lately) was left alone at 6 months preg and she made it and is doing great! I remember the time over a year ago that her posts were just like yours, full of confusion, fear, grief, and loss.

Brilhancy’s game for her kids shows that even utter poverty is not the end of the world, but you aren’t even there yet so take some action before the card companies jump on your back.

Visualize us behind you like the “network” on that cell phone commercial….visualize every one of this army of great and strong people behind your back cheering you on!!!! YOU CAN DO IT!!!! (((((hUGS))))


Dear Mother,

I so relate to your situation! I have been raising my 3 children since I divorced my SP husband – and since my divorce have had to take 5 post divorce actions.

Women in our position need to become warriors to survive – and I what I mean by that is – we need to pay attention to DETAILS.

– Take care of yourself first. Make sure you eat right, and get enough sleep and apply the “oxygen mask” over your own face before you try to help your children (and your students) (I’m a teacher also)

– Keep a log of every disturbing thing your children’s father does. Keep it factual. A friend suggested to me that I do this – at the time I thought it wouldn’t help – but it does! In my spiral notebook I kept (tried to) an unemotional account of incidents with dates written. (Very similar to a teacher’s anecdotal log)

– YOU are a terrific example to your kids. They are helped tremendously by your love and positivity toward them – that will help them. Try to keep conversations about your kids: Keep your time with them about them. Kids need this for their development. I taught my son how to ride a two wheeler when he was 5. Yesterday, we baked chocolate chip cookies together (he’s fourteen). I work hard to keep the vibes good and peaceful in my home.

– You are a life affirming presence in your children’s lives (no matter what is going on with their father). I grew up with a sociopathic mother – but my dad was – lucky for me – sane and warm and he respected what I had to say. He is no longer alive, but he saved my life and saved my sanity.

– Believe (or pretend to believe) that it will all work out. You and your children will prosper and find loving relationships. Believe with intention. Intention is very powerful. Make a picture in your mind: What does freedom feel like?

– Keep telling your story! You’ve helped me in sharing your story. Thank you.


Dear Mother,

I am in a similar situation as you. My ex is 4 months delinquent with CS. I am calling the state CS every week/every other week to follow up on the account. I am waiting to go to Family Court to file a petition order against him. This is a judgment that cannot be dismissed in bankruptcy and will have interest accrue on it. I am trying to get his drivers license suspended and then my kids cannot go with him when he is driving. I also sued him for money he owes me in our divorce agreement. My attorney said that I will get my money when he gets a job. She feels that he doesn’t have any accounts or assets in his name as they are in his wife’s name. She also said the squeaky wheel gets the oil. My ex is married with a baby on the way, but he cannot support his own two kids. He is working under the table and his wife has a decent job, who pays for all of his stuff. I recently pulled into his driveway and saw his huge addition to his house. I almost threw up after I took pics of it on my cell phone. He is just sucking her dry and making me angry! He wouldn’t have anything if he didn’t marry her. However, I don’t have to be married or with someone to support me. I live within my means–something that he has never done and never will. Also, my attorney said that character doesn’t apply in the court of law. I was very shocked and stunned by this, because that was my defense when he took me to court to get my kids to have primary residence with him. Find a good attorney who will fight for you and your kids.

In regards to counseling–perhaps you should take your daughter to your own counselor (so you can be involved) or find out from her doctor who this counselor is–the dr should know about this.

I don’t have any advice, but I just wanted to share my story with you to let you know YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!!! I look forward to reading the rest of the comments as sometimes I need to know I am not alone…

Kuddos to you for getting a job with benefits! One foot in front of the other–go forward! You are doing the right thing for you and your family.

Take care of yourself.



Elizabeth got it right when she suggested Samantha get different agencies on her ex’s tail. This helps to set the momentum – and these agencies can be very helpful in hounding. Involve as many people as possible, and they’ll begin to understand – the more you “shine the light” on the behavior patterns of Sociopaths, for others to see – you don’t have to work quite as hard – and can give your loving attention to yourself and your children.

It’s all about getting your story out, and getting the support and advocacy that you deserve.


Dear Donna and Lovefraud readers,
After reading many of the posts on this site I am confused as to the nature of a true sociopath. Can such a person seem to be a mild-mannered individual not given to bullying or domination?
Here’s a very short version of my story. I married a younger man who seemed to be a intelligent, gentle soul that wouldn’t hurt a fly. When this man did really destructive things to our lives, I often thought that he was just incredibly immature or that he had fear issues. He seemed capable of true love but over time I came to realize that he was only capable of expressing love but not really feeling love.
My ex is a parasite in that he actually seems to become the person he is with. He adopts one’s hobbies, likes and dislikes, religion, etc. With me he was a gentle and devout Christian that seemed to share my future goals and ideals. Yet, throughout our marriage he sabotoged every plan we made however small and he ruined us financially. He is a psychopathic liar, a thief and a total fraud. He claimed that God never answered his prayers and that he had deep rooted fears of confrontation while he did awful things in secret… yet, he always left clues and trails that would ultimately bring about discovery of what he was doing. For example, he lost his job with the USPS and was charged with grand larceny when he was caught on video stealing from his cash drawer. He knew the camera was there. He bounced hundreds of checks over a 15 year period. He borrowed money that he never paid back while writing checks that I would see that made it seem like he was paying the money back. On and on I could go about the things that this man did to himself, to me, to his own daughter and finally to my entire family. In 2005 he began an affair with my son’s wife that resulted in disaster for me and my son. He left me homeless, destitute and unemployed (I was 55 at the time.) when he ‘took over’ my son’s life stealing his wife, his home and all that he had. Now he is married to my ex-daughter-in-law and lives is what use to be my son’s home. He doesn’t seem to have any guilt at all regarding what he has done and he doesn’t seem to mind the fact that my grandchildren absolutely despise him or that what he and their mother have done has hurt these children emotionally. He also abandoned his own daughter and now claims a broken heart over the idea that she wants nothing to do with him.
There is a good deal more to this story but it isn’t needful to go over it here. My confusion about this man and the concept of a sociopath is that he is not physically violent, is not a bully, is not much of a charmer, is extremely quiet and shy acting, is very introverted and seems to avoid the limelight in every situation. He is capable of putting on a personality that will appeal to certain types of women (me included) but I don’t believe that he actually has a real personality. I would have called him an incomplete individual and a narcissist but there are aspects of the things that he has done to others that convince me that he is a heartless sociopath.
I’d appreciate some feedback regarding this type of individual. I’ve had a very hard time getting over all of the things that have happened over the last many years. Now, he is affecting my grandchildren and I’ve seen ugly changes in them because of his presence in their lives. I also believe that my ex-daughter-in-law is a very deluded individual that believes that everything that my ex-husband did while he was married to me was because of his ‘fear’ of me. (The man claims to have a phobic fear of any type of confrontation.) Furthermore, since he has been with her, he has ‘become’ exactly like her.


Oh dear, Samantha,

First thing I would do is get onto your “state division of Child Support” and turn his a** in – list his address, phone, what “they both do for work” – assets you kNOW about, collection calls to you for HIS credit card charges, etc – everything you can think of to tell them on their website.

FILE for a legal separation and STATE the date you separated.

Get it filed – have a hearing and then once it’s signed, you can send it to the BIG THREE credit reporting agencies and GET YOURSELF off of those accounts.

The State will go after HIM, he canNOT “lose” the back child support he owes, even IF he files a bankrutpcy! Great new national laws we have.

Lemme tell ya how I know this stuff: My guy’s ex used him to live off of, stole from him – both money and Savings bonds – wouldn’t get her oldest kid (NOT a child of My guy’s, but her FRST hubby) – I turned her first hubby into Div of Child support here – stupid ASS, put in a statement (wit”L”ess declaration, stating she was SUCH a wonderful mother – hah! – on letterhead he’d purloined from his employer (SEE? I said he’s a STUPID ASS!!!) With that info, I entered his employer’s data into the CS website, and then we FILED as a coutner-statement to HIS BS witLess declaration – IN HIS OWN HANDWRITING, his 6 page, legal length pages, “laundry list of his complaints against her PARENTING capabilities, back in 1998, that he sent to her as his justification for “kidnapping” (i.e.: “custodial interference) the older boy and hiding him out across the northern US for 7 months. He was finally caught in SoDAK with passport apps, photos, and a fake driver’s license. The child was interviewed, then flown home to his mother and my guy, while the JERK /slash/ FELON got to come back to stand trial, via every slow-moving chain-gang county to county VAN possible – it took the various counties in 7 states about 3 months to get him back to the “charging” county.

Then when the jerk BRAGGED to our Guardian ad Litem about how he paid XX thousand dollars to ‘the mom’s attorney’ for a retainer against MY guy’s divorce (they HAD agreed to go Pro Se, but she came screaming in with an atty, at the last possible second; he further bragged to the G.A.L. about giving her another 500 and 400 bucks *atty fees* AND another 200-250 per month “for extras for the boys…” – I figured if he had THAT kind of money just ready to hand over to HER, he could damn well pay her an increased amount of CS for the older boy (due to his former ‘poverty level or less’ income status at the time of THEIR divorce) – his child support was set at $68.00 per month since 1997, when they’d divorced.

She had no interest in “stirring up the tensions” as she told the G.A.L. by taking the JERK back to court — so I made it my mission to turn him into Div Child Support at every oopportunity ovewr the past 3 years. When he left “major metro’ area in OUR state, and moved to a small town in the southern part of our state and was then working in a MAJOR metro area of, we’ll call it Oregon; I googled him and his ‘mug” popped up on a website, as a salesman.

Fortunately, there was the businesses fax, phone, street address, etc. all useful info that I entered into the CS website – he then pulled up stakes and moved to somewhere near the Great Lakes area. AND although SHE denied in court that she knew where he was…I came hom efrom that hearing and within 15 minutes, not only had his new address, a map of their part of town, the city and state names, AND his phone number…all of which went where??? Into the CS collection website.

You really have to SELF-protective, pro-active and EVER-vigilant in order to shut these scamming sucking free-loaders down…

Just a teensy part of MY last three years’ of work – that and reading LF weekly!! It works – and I hope you can do something to get your children the financial support they need. GL to you.



PS maybe our resident ‘mouthpiece’ Matt will weigh in – he’s been helpful in guiding victims of narcissopaths thru a few “legal rocky shoals” – I read some posts by him earlier today, and he’s BAAAAAAAAAACK!

Hi Matt, you world traveler, you!

Other folks have different experiences, but we’ve all somehow qualified to be in ‘this club’ – you’ll get good advice here, in many ways, covering lots of different situations. We’re GLOBAL!


After weeks of researching having a narcissistic ex husband, I found your web site. I was married, to who I am quite certain was (and is) a narcissist, for 11 years and together with him for 17 years from the time I was 16 years old and abandoned by my father (a relationship that has since been repaired). It has always been about him, and I lost my own identity while with him serving his needs. I have been divorced from him for 8 years now and he still haunts me and my family. I’ll call him “George”.

At which point I had two very young children with George, I found this great need from within to find myself, and began to play my violin (my first love, before him) again after many years. I practiced and practiced in a desperate attempt to find myself. George did everything in his power to tell me how wrong I was to start playing again. Even though I only practiced early in the morning when the children were asleep (before going to work) and then in the afternoon (immediately following work) when they were napping at the sitter’s house, he was determined to make me feel horribly guilty and tell me constantly that I was taking time away and neglecting the children. He fought me tooth and nail over this, and eventually, I believe this was the beginning of the end. I quit the violin again because the punishment for playing was unbearable.

Early on in the relationship, I followed him to college to Northern California. He had chosen his school because of a full ride baseball scholarship, and I followed with a full ride music scholarship to a school near by. After one year of being up there, he decided that this was not the place to be for him and his baseball, so he then wanted to go down south. There I went down south to follow him again to Cal. State Fullerton where he wanted to play ball and had a full ride baseball scholarship.

My dreams of getting into UC Berkley with a full violin scholarship were crushed. It mattered not that my chances were high (I studied privately with the UC Berkley Symphony conductor who asked me to audition, telling me that this would all happen). My academics were also up to par, but George told me that if I stayed in Northern Ca. that it would not work between the two of us. So, off I went back to Vegas, and then down to Cal. State Fullerton where I had to pay out of state tuition and where I gave up my violin playing, mostly to work my butt off trying to cover tuition, room, and board, and to attend his baseball games which were almost every day. It’s funny, out of the hundreds of games that I attended at CSUF; George never acknowledged my presence, even when walking directly by me to the snack bar. Not once. But he sure did make me feel guilty and awful if I ever missed a game.

After finishing undergrad and grad. school at Cal. State Fullerton, I had a new dream. I wanted to go and get my Ph. D. in Speech Language Pathology and would have had a full ride/Fellowship almost anywhere I wanted to go. I had done much research in my undergrad years and presented at a national conference in my field already. I begged and pleaded and gave him a list of 20 programs in 20 different places that we could go to where I could study and do research. It clearly was not going to happen and was discarded like gum on the bottom of his shoe. He was going back to where his family lived and where he wanted to begin his Chiropractic practice.

I was so angry and hurt. I had worked three jobs during my undergrad. years all the way through, while we both took out the max in student loans to get by. I put us through our graduate and (his) doctoral programs by being hired early on an emergency credential to work full time in the school district through my graduate program. I worked all day until 3:15PM while my first class would begin at 4:00PM after my commute to CSUF from work. My last class would end at 10:00PM at which time I would eat dinner and study. I did this for three solid years, pulling so many “all-nighters,” that I cannot even tell you. I was highly exhausted and highly addicted to caffeine.

Sam worked briefly during our undergrad programs as a part time server at Red Robin three nights a week for about 9 months, but that was all. He quit and then went to Chiropractic school after being injured in baseball and not being able to play pro. ball, which was his dream. He was depressed and seemed to define himself through baseball only.

Looking for a way to help him, I filled out and completed all of his essays and admittance packets for entrance into Chiropractic school (as I had done for all of his college admittance packets also), and he ended up going. During this time, while I worked my butt off, he went to school most of the day, while playing the rest of the day. His car was known as the “fun car” with all of his friends because he had golf clubs, tennis rackets, ping pong rackets, fishing gear, boogie boards, etc, all in the car so that he (or they) could go and play after school. I only wish I had time for one ping pong game, but never would have. I was so secretly envious of his lifestyle.

When we finally made it through school, I so badly wanted to do something for me and go and get that Ph.D. It didn’t matter to him, so off to Vegas we went, where there was no Ph.D. program for me, but this was for him to begin his career. I began my profession as he studied for board exams, etc. I continued to work as a Speech Path. while he finally got a part time job for another Chiropractor and worked three days per week, fishing and golfing on the other two.

Because there was no Ph. D. program for Speech Pathology in Las Vegas, I decided to begin another master’s degree in School Administration. In retrospect, I did this to fulfill some kind of need I had to feel worthy of something, or to have something for myself that I could feel proud of. Going to school and working had been the only thing I did that made me feel worthy. Sam’s constant demeaning pushed me down so far in my personal life, that this was my life line. Even though he hated that I was going back to school, and began calling me a “professional student,” the program was only one night per week, not much work, and didn’t take much away from him. He had his own hobbies, like golf and a new fishing hole to hang out at. I fought like hell and begged and pleaded until he let me have my one night a week at school.

Finally, he started up his own practice. At first, we had some very hard times, but he finally started making a living and contributing after a while.

During this time, I came to a breaking point and wanted out so badly. I was afraid. I secretly got counseling (out of fear that if he knew about it he would use it against me), and then as a homework assignment for counseling, I tired to discuss the things in our marriage that I thought needed to change. I was frightened to have this discussion because of the consequences I knew he would impose on me. He told me to “go have my f’ing fairy-tale romance somewhere else,” and to go “f” myself. He told me that it was what it was and he wasn’t changing a thing.

A few days later, he went out of town with a friend to help him take his board exams. I went to a friend’s house in California for the weekend, and tried and tried to call him but could hardly reach him at all. The one time I did, I asked him why he wasn’t answering his phone in his hotel room that night (all night). He yelled at me and made me feel that I was the one who did something wrong.

The next night, I ended up in an unexpected situation with another man who was a friend of my friend. By the end of the night, I had kissed him. This was wrong on my part – the biggest mistake I have ever made I think in my life. Though there is no excuse for my behavior, I think the abuse that I had suffered emotionally finally caught up with me and I was so angry. I couldn’t take the “cut downs” and the constant demeaning. I couldn’t even verbalize what it was that I was hurting from. It was a systematic “one upmanship” and unraveling of my self-esteem and self-concept. I made a bad choice and rebelled. For one night, I couldn’t, and wasn’t any longer going to try and live up to his expectations he put on me which were so unrealistic. I was acting out. I was so tired of feeling like such a nothing of a person and being pushed down by him every time I thought I had something going for me.
After this happened, I sought counseling again. The counselor told me not to tell him. I did anyway. I didn’t tell him out of guilt because it was the first time I didn’t feel guilty toward him, only toward God. I felt as is I hated him and wanted out, and if I told him that he would let me out. He would leave me out of shame of me and would finally decide I wasn’t good enough! I even made the story worse than it was and told him it was more than a kiss.

I then quickly moved out to my mother’s house, and thought I was out. I have no idea what happened, but he reeled me back in. I moved back in and continued the marriage. Now, the emotional abuse was worse than ever. And finally, I felt horribly guilty for what I had done, and couldn’t take it back and couldn’t make it better. I can’t describe what I lived, and the things he yelled at me for three straight years following. I was never going to be done paying for this. Never, ever. He now had excuses to mistreat me even more. A free ticket to terrorize!

He did whatever he could and whatever he wanted to hurt and abuse now, and did it blatantly. He did other smaller things also, like staying out all night long sometimes without even telling me he was leaving, etc. It was bad. He spit in my face and doesn’t even remember doing it. He broke things constantly ”“ windshields, walls, etc. with his fist to scare me, or to “get things through my head.” One phrase he used all of the time was, “You’re never going to get it, are you?”

After dealing with years of being exposed to George’s pornography, at this point he didn’t even care anymore. He did what he was going to do, and almost put the pornography in my face. He knew that this hurt me, but didn’t care when I found it how it made me feel. There were videos, magazines of every sort, pay per view movies, all kinds of stuff on his computers, but there was never any real intimacy with me. He would never really look into my eyes and expose himself at all during any physical encounter with me. The times he did look into my eyes were not out of intimacy but out of control, or threat-like behavior. During this time, he wanted children and we had been trying for a while. We had difficulties getting pregnant, and he told me at one point that if I didn’t get pregnant, it would be acceptable grounds for divorce. I felt under the fire and knew that if I didn’t bear children soon he would leave me.

I also wanted children. After three years of trying, we had two children, 17 months apart. The first was a girl, the second a boy. Wow, did he ever glow! I thought this might be a new start. He appeared to love his children, and was very much a part of every single thing with the babies. He was so involved that even the motherly things that I shared with my children, he was a part of. It was almost as if I had a hard time sharing some of the mother/child things because he always seemed to be in the middle of every experience and every move I made. At times, I felt that I had to fight to have a moment with my children, but didn’t dare buck his authority. He dictated how I would do everything and how I would mother my children. If I did things my own way, I was a bad mother. It was as if he felt that I was incapable, or was trying to make me and those around me believe that.

I developed this thing where I think I was acting passively aggressive by not accepting his meaningless apologies when he wronged me, or verbally abused me anymore. It was like I was making a stand, but it was the only control I think I had. I would hold out for hours, sometimes a day or two. I was so tired of him reeling me back in with empty “I’m sorry’s” to serve his own needs just to do whatever it was to me again with no care or concern. At the same time, I stopped apologizing to him for many things. That was when I had this need to find myself and began to play my violin. And this was when he told me that he needed someone who “adored him.” He didn’t feel as if I did anymore. Actually, I idolized him for so many years, but now I was so confused as to what was happening to me and why I was feeling the way that I did. Why was I feeling so cheated? Why was I feeling like everything he said was a lie? How did I loose my self in this whole thing?

A couple of months later, when I was developing more skill on my violin and had gotten to the point where I was before I stopped playing, he began acting as if he was extra involved in something else – I had no idea what, but if I didn’t know any better, I would have thought it was drugs. It wasn’t drugs, but he was detaching himself and disengaging with me.

His behavior continued to change. I was used to him leaving in the middle of the night without telling me and being on his computer for hours on end into the late hours of the night. But he was distancing himself from me to the point where I told him that I was feeling like I was loosing my best friend. I still idolized him most of the time, and loved him very much, but he didn’t feel it was enough. He responded to me, that he was not interested in “being my friend” anymore and “didn’t have anymore patience” for me. If I wanted a “friend” I was to find that elsewhere. He had no patience for me at all. When I made a mistake of some kind or made him mad, he now would skip the whole degradation part and just put a fist through the wall and remain withdrawn, withholding every bit of “love” that I would be able to get from him previously after the degradation.

Shortly after that, I found him in the middle of the night, on his computer, where he would be every night, talking to another woman. I found out that he had been calling women on the phone, getting to know them, emailing them, instant messaging them, etc. He had pictures of himself on the computer that he was sending out to them. He had a web cam, and was having cyber sex with them over the web cam. There were four women who he was doing this with that I communicated with, and a whole bunch more that he had been corresponding with over the years of our marriage, some even from before the internet started when he would leave them messages on the pre-internet “message boards” and “social networks.” All of this was found in his computer.

It was as if I was the one who had done something wrong for catching him and finding this stuff. He felt that I drove him to it. He was the one angry at me, and I was just hurt. I believed I had driven him to this. He yelled at me because I was playing my violin now and taking time away from us and him. He told me that it was my fault that he was doing these things because of my mistake three years earlier.

One of the girls he had been corresponding with told me that he had told her that he was divorced for a year and taking care of his children on his own. She told me that he would call her in the evenings after work, and that he had plans of meeting physically and going out of town a couple of weeks from then. He had already been on many out of town trips with his friends, but this was his “fun” time and I wasn’t going to give him a hard time about it.

Then, I found an electronic eye in our bedroom, which he would set up to be on me at night. It would beep him downstairs and let him know if I had gotten out of bed. He would then get off of the computer so that he didn’t’ get caught with the other girls, but would tell the other women that he had to tend to one of his children who he was supposedly rearing by himself. One night his beeper thing didn’t work, and in I walked to the computer room while he was talking to a new girl. I tried for eight months after that to make it work, but he was so angry at me.

He became even more controlling and even harsher in his judgments of me. He was emotionally abusive to me and was doing it in front of our children. I was used to being harshly judged by him, but it became much worse. He made me feel like I was a real hussy – slut. As if I was going to cheat on him or was looking for an opportunity. I wasn’t, and wanted nothing but for the pain to stop. At the same time, my already low self-esteem was more crushed. I went and got implants and new clothes to try and feel better about myself. He twisted it into something where I was accused of trying to get the attention of other men, which was the last thing I wanted. I just wanted to be the one he wanted. I felt I was so lacking in every area. Maybe if I changed my physical appearance, I would be good enough.

My first mistake three years earlier, when I kissed the other man and told him it was more than that caused me enough pain and abuse for a lifetime, and there was no way that I was going to go through that again. I was definitely not an attention getter, and did not want any attention from anyone but him. Throughout our marriage though, if I ever tried to look nice, I was told that I was doing it for other men and made to feel like a prostitute. All I got out of the implants and new clothes, of course, was negative attention from George, and it all backfired.

After eight months of trying to make my marriage work again, I gave up and again began to look for a way out. The same person that helped me look through his computer to find out what all he had been doing ended up being my rock and my strength. Yes, it was a man. Barely even knowing him when he helped me look through the computer, I now clung to him as he made me feel like I might be worth something. Eventually, after a few months more of me begging for a divorce and pleading my case, George moved out of the house when I told him I was going to start seeing the other man. He was furious and told all of our friends that the reason we were getting a divorce was by my choice (which it was) and that it was because I was having an affair. Nothing physical ever happened with this other man until we were separated and the damage was done. I’m sure it helped me gain strength to leave George, but I didn’t leave George for the other man. I so badly needed to find my own identity and get out of prison and feel worthy. I so badly wanted to know that I was a good mother, but never could have felt that way with George constantly demeaning my every being. Nonetheless, it was wrong, again, for me to reach out to another man.

I took the blame of our divorce, I took the fall, and I signed the papers as he wanted them. There were no attorneys. George took his chiropractic practice free and clear, there was no alimony after 17 years of being together, and I got no financial settlements. His practice was thriving and worth a lot of money (in fact he took out a jumbo loan against the practice just in case right before our divorce to devalue it significantly in order to “expand his practice”). I would be responsible for five years of student loans that were taken out to pay for Sam’s chiropractic education, and I only got 50/50 custody of my children. I was afraid, and took the deal, and ran for the hills. I was just shocked that he was finally giving me a divorce. I paid severely, however. And still pay, as do my children. The other man was charming, but I knew I needed to find myself and I let him go shortly after.

I never knew what a good parent I was until Sam left, and I began to see other parents and other mothers parent their children. George became unbearable after the divorce. I was wishing I didn’t do it because of the new level of misery I had to live. It was a whole new hell, and he was going to make me regret my choices. It became so bad at points that I thought if we got back together, it would be easier. I was discarded though. He almost gave me a chance once, but he told me that I would have to chase after him and show him that I adored him more than I ever did when we were married. I physically ran to the bathroom and threw up after this and knew I couldn’t do it. I had come this far, had found myself, and couldn’t go back. Even through it was harder to be divorced from him than it was to be married, I didn’t have it in me to go through the abuse again. And I didn’t love him anymore, and would have never been able to pretend I did. I just so badly wanted peace for my kids, but didn’t know how to give it to them.

The new money he was coming into was his. The new homes were his. His new lifestyle was his. He had no compassion that I worked so hard to put him through school. It was o.k. because I had my freedom and knew that one day I would be able to break loose from his control. Having kids with him was what he used to control my every move, and he did it well. The need for us to have to talk about this or that just never seemed to end.

One day when my kids returned to my house for my custodial time, they told me they couldn’t kiss me anymore because I had too many germs crawling all over my mouth. “Daddy told us that you were kissing too many men and that they all have bad germs and that we can’t kiss you anymore because we will get them.” To this day, my son is still germ phobic. He rarely will kiss me on the lips and will not drink from my glass or eat from my utensils.

Now, it is 8 years later. After not dating anyone for almost a year, I met a wonderful man. We got married and pregnant shortly after. We have a beautiful baby who is 16 months old and are happy. We’ve been together for three years now and I love him very much. I know now what a real apology feels like. I know now that I don’t have a problem saying “I’m sorry” either. I still have not come to the conclusion that I’m not crazy, but I feel better about being a successful partner in a relationship than I ever did.

The process of me getting married was another thing to get through with George. He never had a girlfriend in all the eight years of our divorce, until after I married and became pregnant. Before this, I think he had commitment problems that he blamed on me. Nonetheless, he is now in a serious relationship and is supposedly going to get married soon. Of course, the new girlfriend benefits from all of my hard work earlier in his career and during his education. And of course she thinks I’m a raving psycho. ex wife. She has observed me spewing venom so many times, having no idea what I have lived, or some of the things he still does to me, usually purposefully. Sometimes, I wonder if I am a crazy psycho ex. wife when I don’t control my tongue and what I say to them. The last 8 years with him as a co-parent and ex have been worse than the 17 years I was with him prior in a bad relationship. Not in terms of my life, but in terms of having to deal with the cruel things that he does.

My biggest challenges have been that Sam does things that affect the kids, will not co-parent fairly, and will not follow any guidelines we set. I have had to continually set boundaries, and he has continually crossed them. At one point, I had to get a protective order (and he told all of our friends again, that I was lying). He, of course, violated it, and got right in my face. When I filed a police report, he again said I was lying and “set him up”. He saw me from 200 feet away, and could have walked the other direction, but instead walked right up to me and put his face in my face. I dropped the charges because of the threats from him and his attorneys, but the investigator did not and the city made him go to court. He made a plea.

Even after going to court for violating the protective order, one time he came over to my home on his birthday, and when I answered the door, he repeatedly shoved his sun glasses in my face, calling my a “whore” and yelling this at me about seven or eight times while the children were out in his truck. It’s been so awful, and although through mediation we have set different boundaries for exchanges, etc. and he would no longer be coming to my door for anything, he finds ways to intrude into my life and continually cross boundaries.

My husband wants this to stop and so do I. With George, however, the goose is never good for the gander. Nothing has ever been fair with him and I have lived a life with his double standards for years and years, and it is just worse now. He is all about power and control. He will use the smallest thing to control me, whether it be my time, my money, my kids, etc. I feel like this is never going to end and that he will never give up being cruel to me.

Now, with his new girlfriend (who is clueless and things he the greatest man alive), they together do things to get at me. The latest is that I showed up with my son at his all-star baseball game, and saw that all of the other parents had parent shirts to support the team. I was not told, of course, because George was (and still is) the coach. So, I walked up to the other parents in my regular shirt, and sat down, only to turn around and see his girlfriend wearing a mother’s shirt with my son’s name and number on it. She’s done this three times now, and it hurts. She has also started talking about me to other parents, and even called up my husband and told him a bunch of lies about how I am still stuck on my ex. I’m sure this is what he would like her to believe.

She tried to arrange to meet up with my husband to show him texts or emails that Sam told her about that were supposed “love poems” and stuff like that. I have never written him any love poems, ever. It turns out that my husband tried to make arrangements to meet with her, but she was never able to come up with the goods to show him. Probably because Sam didn’t have what he told her he had, and she was never provided with such stuff that George told her I wrote. But still this affected me because here was George’s girlfriend now, trying to get in the way of my marriage!

Sam controls my time with my son because he coaches his baseball teams (2 teams at a time which he plays on at the same time) and he ends up getting my son almost every night for either practice or a game. George is living his baseball dreams through my son. My son does not want to disappoint his father and would never admit it if he didn’t want to play baseball every day. I think he loves it, but I also think he’s been programmed to. There was one time in which he actually stated he only played baseball for his father, but then he took it back the next week after going over there.

My daughter wants desperately to live with me, and needs her mother right now being in middle school, but George would never allow that to happen. So, she goes over there for his week and makes the best of it. We have been to court and to mediation and the conflict never seems to end. This last time we went to mediation was at his (or more probably his girlfriend’s) request. He came to mediation with the new parenting agreement already written, and he pulled this off! He actually charmed the mediator (who was another male) into using his (and his girlfriend’s) agreement as the template. I felt this was SO biased and not fair, but wanted to go to parallel parenting, which is what the mediator suggested, and so I agreed to most of the terms and signed it.

The new girlfriend was pushing parallel parenting because she did not want him to have the ongoing communication with me that he had. I agreed with her, but, she, of course, thought that it was me that has been the initiator of all of this communication and conflict. My husband has been around longer than the girlfriend and can attest that most of the communication has been initiated by him. In fact, George loves to wait until he leaves for work in the morning and then start texting away. He creates conflicts that make me have to communicate with him constantly. I hate this. The sound on my phone that tells me there is a text message literally makes me physically ill, and I have to change it often because of the physical response I get from hearing it go off.

When I allow him to get to me, I get so fed up and can’t take it anymore, and am so very angry at him, that I just go off and start texting him mean things. I say horrible things to him and feel that I am acting out of control. My anger gets the better of me, and I catch myself giving him the very reaction that he wants from me, and enjoys the most. Following this, he loves to swoop in and play Superman to “make things better.” I hate him for this, and need to be able to give no reaction to his antics. He is very creative, however, and there always seems to be something.

Every week when I get my kids back, there is something. The baseball thing makes parallel parenting very difficult because of the ongoing need for communication and the ongoing interaction at my son’s games. George also controls my time with my son because he schedules practices and games on nearly every one of my days with my son. We have now tried to make a recent decision to keep my son out of his baseball activities with his father on my days. I feel that this eliminates the conflict, but at the same time makes my son pay. George is going nuts and will probably take me to court over this. However, I have given my son the choice to play baseball on my days in my neighborhood, and he is choosing to play golf instead on my days. He feels that without his father, he does not want to play on another team over at my house.

Because this affects my son, I am guilt ridden, and don’t want my son to suffer. I see the sadness when he misses his games while at my house, but at the same time, he seems moor at peace and is more expressive with us. Still, I know my son wants to be playing on George’s teams on my weeks with him and hate that this conflict has affected this for him. Should I try and set more boundaries, once again, and put my son back on his team, knowing that he will not stick to whatever we agree to in order to reduce the conflict, or should I stick to my guns to eliminate the conflict by not dealing with him on my days with my children? I want to do what’s in the best interest of my children. The level of conflict and contention during shared baseball games gets to my children. To use the words of my current husband, they are like fish out of water not knowing who to show loyalty to, who to kiss even, or who to sit by. It’s awful for them and for us.
My children hear all the rumors that are started by George and his girlfriends about me at my son’s baseball games, and they are affected by these. Where do I go from here? What is best for my kids? How can I stop reacting and loosing my composure over the things he does to me and my children? How can I stop him from getting to me? I can’t carry around this anger anymore, but I don’t know how to let it go when he is STILL affecting me so much, trying to exert his power and control in any way he can.

At times, I can’t contain my anger anymore when my children return to me and start to tell me all the things that they have said about me or that they have done to the children, etc. I have cried in front of my children and they should not be exposed to this. I know I have to stop reacting to all of this. How? Am I the one that is crazy? Is what I have described just a problematic relationship with two sides to it, or is it as bad as I have thought it has been? Am I overreacting to a bad relationship and somehow have some kind of anger problem over it that is coming from within? What things can I take responsibility for here that I can use to control my own life, and my happiness? What are the choices that I can make to improve the situation?

Ox Drover

Dear JLP,

All I can say is “WOW!” You ARE in the RIGHT PLACE! Welcome to LoveFraud, sorry that you “qualify” for “membership in our club”—however, if you have to join a “club” of this sort, THIS IS THE BEST ONE IN THE WORLD!

KNOWLEDGE=POWER, and so hang around here and LEARN, I suggest that you start by reading the hundreds of articles in the archives (just the articles, save the comments for later) and keep coming here and blog with the rest of us.

There are some INCREDIABLY SMART and great people here, and this is a place of validation—and, NO, YOU ARE NOT CRAZY!—-and compassion and caring!

Anger is a normal and natural state, but not one we want to be in the rest of our lives, but “how?”–it takes time, knowlege, support and work!

I also suggest you go to “raising the at risk child” blog of Dr. Liane Leedom (look on the left of the LF page) and you will find support there fo ryou and your kids and co-parenting with your psychopathic x.

God bless, I’m glad you landed here, this is a good place to heal. (Hugs)))


thanks for your story. It’s a good thing that you were able to post so many details so that others can really get a sense of the horror of life with a P.
I’m amazed at your strength. You went to school. I dropped out after 2 years of college because my exP made me too miserable. (but I think he was poisoning me too, because I was very sick).

You didn’t say if you have read any books on narcissism or if you undestand the root or basis of this personality disorder. I don’t want to repeat stuff you already know.

If you have been reading these posts you might have come across the advice I tell everyone: Be BORING. Be BLAND. Become a gray rock. Channel a plain, gray, boring rock. No sparkles, no patterns, just so gray and boring. Your voice becomes a monotone, your eyes become dead. Your answer to everything, is “I’m fine, that’s fine, I guess, ok, not today, ok, well maybe.”

They can’t stand anything boring. They need to feed on your emotions. They are vampires. Boring makes them starve. At first they will amp up the volume, but if you stay boring, they just slither away. You have been reacting for years, so this will make him suspicious. You need to have a plausible explanation for your change in behavior: tell him you are on an anti-depressant, like Paxil or Prozac. My ExP could not stand it when his friend took the prozac. he said, “I can always tell when Forrest is taking prozac, he’s like dead inside”. It bothered him because he wanted to punish Forrest who was sensitive.

The narcissist, wants all the attention all the time. He was excited to have children because they would be the source of more attention and also because he knew he could manipulate you more through them. But most of all, from what you have told us, he was trying to suck emotions out of you and you seemed to have plenty to give him.

I’m impressed that you were able to triumph as much as you have with virtually no knowledge and just sheer willpower. My hat is off to you. Now, arm yourself with as much knowledge as you can, about this PD, use that knowledge to overpower him and then spread the word. People need to know about this evil so that others don’t have to suffer even a fraction of what you have. You sound like you could be an army of one! We need you on our side.

Which books have u read on narcissism?


BTW, they also torment their victims “by proxy” as you have discovered with the non-kissing children. when you become boring, he will recruit more people to torment you by proxy. Stay the course, do not react.


Thank you so much OxDrover and Skylar. I will read the section on the “At Risk Child.” Arming myself with knowledge sounds like a great idea right now. I really don’t know a lot about this and have just started reading the articles on this website over the last few days. I ordered my first book on narcissism and should recieve it in the next day or so.

This is all hitting me kind of hard, but I’m finally beginning to understand what has happened to me, and almost half way beleiving that maybe it wasn’t all my fault, and maybe it wasn’t just my emotional problems that got me to where I was at my lowest. The peices are finally starting to come together for me though, and I might finally “get it” after all.

I love the “boring” idea and I’m going to use that. He’s tormented me a lot “by proxy,” so I’m used to that. I don’t know how many people around me he hasn’t used yet, so he’s running out of avenues, I think and hope, other than the children unfortunately.

Thank you so much both of you! I’ll keep you posted on how things go.


Girl……What a post!
I hope you keep a copy of that for your review…..
Exactly what you stated about walking away….was the exact reason why I chose to fight my S.
I knew that I could give him everything jsut to get out and it still wouldn’t make him go away!
Do NOT let him intimidate you! DO NOT GIVE HIM POWER OVER YOU!
You are in the right place, I am proud that you have catapulted yourself into the education mode…..I assure you….YOU WILL FIND ANSWERS… and in your search…..
It will be overwhelming and emotional.
I suggest…..for now…..BITE YOUR TONGUE and keep a ‘forced’ smile on your face.
Until you know more of what your dealing with and come to grips with him.
DO NOT REACT….it fuels them….
GO back, spend time and read old posts… will be blown away at how you can relate to the stories of our lives.
It will begin to ‘make some’ sense to you… will never understand the ‘why’ part…..just rest on the idea of BECAUSE!
Keep your strength, educate yourself, raise awareness, trust yourself, and remain patient…….HE WON”T CHANGE.
BUT….there are things you CAN do!
I can’t give you advice on the child rearing issue…In a sense…I was lucky…mine abandoned the kids….after much harassment and abuse……so I never ‘formally’ went through a custody mind fuck.
Just in the courts…..and his behaviors showed to the judges each time!
BUT I KNOW……in time….the kids WILL figure this out….see him for what he is……
As I see it, all you can do for now is love and support your children……..and stick to your guns.
Shake it up…your reactions and make them NO REACTION.
Welcome again,,,,,,you will find an immense amount of support here!
Get reading girl!

Ox Drover

Dear JLP,

Dr. Leedom has a separate blog site, not just a few articles, but she also has a son by a psychopath, so she knows from what she is talking about…

NO, IT IS NOT YOU, it is him. He will try to convince you that it is you, try to convince others it is you…that is standard operating procedure with them SOP.

His whole motive, as Erin says is to GET A REACTION from you, and lwhen you stop reacting, he will “turn up the heat” for a while to get you to go back to “playing his game” again, so EXPECT that.

The other thing is that all the things he does, in the long run are “small change” if you don’t let them get to you—-so who really cares 10 years later which little league team your kid played on? Look at things in PERSPECTIVE and save your outrage for the BIGGER FISH of things.

A friend of lmine said “Don’t sweat the small stuff, and remember it is all small stuff”—I wish I had listened to her more. But the point is you are just so irritated and stressed that you must get some PEACE IN YOUR LIFE or even the little things will send you into a tizzy. That is ALSO ANOTHER TACTIC they use to keep us OFF BALANCE and upset all the time. That gives them an advantage over us because they do these things COLD and not upset. Calculating all the way.

Again, glad you are here—and like Erin says, READ YOURSELF BLIND!!!! I will keep you in my prayers ((((hugs)))))


EB and OxDrover,
I am going to make a commitment to myself to hold my tongue! After starting to read the stuff on this site, I think I might find the power to do this.

I’m gonna have to look at Dr. Leedom’s stuff. The baseball thing is the hardest thing for me right now because it’s so hard to find a team that will allow a kid to play on “half time.” Almost unrealistic. That’s the biggest avenue my ex has to control me right now and he’s making me feel so awful for my son.

When I think about it and talk about it with my current husband, we still think that our kids are more at peace not having to be in the middle of the conflict at baseball, but I can’t, as a parent, take away something my son loves like this. I can’t find a way not to take it away and still remove the kids from the baseball conflict. The end solution in my head still tells me that I should put my son back onto his baseball teams and take whatever it is, in the gut, when I’m there like I have for the last four years. Maybe my kids are affected less by all the conflict at baseball than they are if I take my son off of these teams.

The time away from my son when he’s at baseball kills me because my ex, being the coach of these teams, schedules games and practices on almost every one of my custodial nights, but I don’t know which way to go or which is in the best interest of my kids.

I just want my kids to be at peace and I’m willing to sacrifice whatever I need to to try and make that happen. That’s the trap I always find myself in, and that’s the one my ex sets for me constantly. Most times, that means giving in to whatever the conflict is in an attempt to eliminate the conflict for the kids, but that’s also a big lie in my head, becuase I just keep thinking, “this one has got to be it.” “If I just do make this last concession, this will be the end of it,” and “There can’t possibly be anything more.” I know, now, deep down, that he’ll cause a new conflict as soon as the latest one is solved.

For now, though, I will give as little reaction as possible! Thank you so much for all of the support! It’s helping me! And thank you for keeping my in your prayers – I never would have made it this far without my faith. 🙂


Read as many books on the subject of narcissism as you can. As you become more educated on the subject of evil (that is what you are dealing with, no matter which name we choose to use:N, S, P, or E), you will be able to speak with your children, on the subject. You won’t sound like a fire and brimstone preacher. You will sound coherent and plausible. They will listen and understand. Actually, it almost seems like children actually “get it” better than adults do. They percieve an injustice very clearly. They aren’t muddled by the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) that adults have ingrained into them.
You can give them books to read after you have read them – depending on their reading skills. The books, “the sociopath next door” and “Why is it always about you?” aren’t too complicated for a 10 year old. They will soon perceive what their father is. Hopefully you can do this before they become like he is. Sometimes kids do, but having a mom that knows all about it could help avoid that problem.

Ox Drover

Dear JLP,

All narcissistis are not psychopaths/sociopaths but all S/Ps are Narcissistic to one degree or another (usually HIGH) since they have NO conscience (they only fake one sometimes) and they are so manipulative and so on, this is standard procedure for them.

He has manipulated your son in such a way to take up as much of your time with your son as possible, and pith you off as much as possible. That is his goal, and he is succeeding at this point. You can’t change the situation apparently, but you CAN change your REACTION to it.

Just the simple fact of REALIZING what he is doing is going to help you I think.

Dr. Robert Hare’s site is a great one to start on, plus reading the articles here (the ones that are archived by month on the left of your screen) Dr. hare’s book’ “without conscience” is about him first styding them in prison, but keep in mind that not all psychpaths (as he refers to them) are CRIMINAL or openly violent, BUT keep in mind they are all viscoious MONSTERS inside.

The more you learn the better you will be able to cope. Glad you have a new husband that I assume is supportive. Educate him as well. the more he knows the more supportive he can be to you.

And, come here and rant, vent or whatever you need to do. this is a great site. god bless.


Not sure if this is feasable or even dooable….but….
I am thinking…..
If you can regain your composure and ‘spray yourself down’ with repellant…..
Can you become involved in your sons baseball?
Be there at practice, be there at all games……even though the coach is the ex/dad…..why can’t you ‘participate’ in that for your son? NOT THE EX…..the son!
You will need the strength to repel whatever it is he throws at you……
But counter effect his scheduling and be in control of your time with your son……take him and bring him home from practice the ex schedules……’play along’ with that?!
Just because he is in control of the schedule, doesn’t mean you have to let him go home with the dad each time (during your visitation).
If you give up too much power it won’t look good in custody hearings. And this will be the avenue he will exploit.
You need to counterbalance it.
If the child has another engagement or lots of homework during your time, take him to practice and tell the son he needs to tell his coach he must leave early today……
Take control of your parenting time.
You must be careful not to alientate your son from his favorite activities.
My oldest played all the sports for his father…..the father (S) coached only for the glory, and naseatingly uses that (to this day) as his glory badge…..”I WAS THE COACH”….yeah, yeah, blah, blah……
It pushed our oldest into individual sports he could be in control of himself……in the end he wanted nothing to do with his father or being coached (put down) by him.
His father practiced him day and night…..and the son didn;t want to ‘get better’…..he just wanted the time with his dad….of which he never received….the S gave his time to the good athletes…..the stars…..all for his own glory! His own son was just a token he could use as …..”I coached my boy”.
Reality was…….he did it all for himself…..he wanted to live through his son…..and son resisted.

Okay, back to you……
You have made good choices, your heart is in the right place… need to develope a strategy, note it all down and learn about yourself. It’s not your fault….but it’s the situation your in and will be until your kids turn 18…..and maybe beyond! You know this… it’s great your figuring this out now! I commend you.
When you are triggered to react by your ex……go against everything you feel…..reactionary feelings and STOP.
Dont react……it throws them off balance and they don’t know what to do……
Eventually you will be able to see his next moves……but he will no longer know how you will react.
Keep a smile and have conversations with yourself during those times…’s okay to think it…..JUST DON”T SAY IT!
‘Welcome’ the GF……(trust me, her life is no different than what you lived with him!)
I remember I sat next to S’s GF at an event……Oh, that freaked everyone out……I chatted her up fierce…..blew her away and was as nice as pie… to the point where she questioned the portrayal of me that was presented to her…..
I am not suggesting you become her BFF……just learn the game and play it more strategically for the benefit of YOU and your kids.
Think of all the people you know that give society the perception they are in control……of themselves and situations…..
You regard them as strong and in control……
We all have insecurities……just keep them close to your sleeve.
Maybe become the team mom….official or unofficial…..ALWAYS bring snacks and goodies and drinks for the kids……even offer them to the parents in the stands……
Bake brownies every week……
You must be consistant though…..hit em hard….kill em with kindness……
Become the most popular mom on the field……
It’ll kill him!
My ex HATED THIS……and I didn’t even realize what I was doing….I just knew he was pushing me ‘out’, so I counter balanced him.
I took all the kids after practice to 7-11 for slurpies…..
It didn’t cost me very much, and it became ritual……I would order pizzas to be delivered at the field……
The kids always knew I WOULD BE DOING SOMETHING FOR THEM… a team!
I think if you force the issue of finding another team for you son, it might cause great problems… will divide him from his ‘friends’ and usual players……this might cause anger towards you….this is what you don’t want.

My 2cents for today…..


Can you pick up your son after baseball when it’s on your nights?



Thank you for all of your support and great ideas! I will read some of those books. I have one now called the Wizard of Oz and other Narcissists. Has anyone read it?

I do take my son to practice and then pick him up two hours later when it’s over on my days. For the last four years, I have not attended the practices though in an effort to minimize the conflict. I do go to my son’s games though, which are frequent. Sometimes he has up to four games in a week. When at games, I sit off somewhere to the side in my lawn chair and stay to myself. It’s only been for this last three weeks that we haven’t been participating, but I dont’ like the effects it’s having on my son, so we have to get him back in.

I love Erin’s ideas about getting more involved with the boys and the parents, but I have to say it scares me to death. I’m very shy and I haven’t ever talked to most of them. Maybe if I start by even sitting in the stands, it would would be a start.

You guys were right about it getting worse before it gets better. Since I haven’t allowed him to get to me for these three weeks, he is now emailing my husband asking him if he can meet up with him to “discuss the families and the kids,” just the two of them, “man to man.”

He told my husband in the email, that he has never had a chance to meet any of my “men” (as if there were so many of them), and despite his invitations to do so, they “all” refused.

In reality, following our divorce, he met up with the fist two to “discuss the children” and took them both on a long walk down the canyon behind my house bashing me the whole time. Each time, they were disturbed about the things he said to them about me, mostly lies and some half truths. The only thing he told them about the kids was one last comment before the walk ended: “If I ever find out you touch my kids, I will burry you in a whole out in the desert.”

Following these conversations with each of new boyfriend, he got a big reaction out of me. I was highly upset. This time, there’s going to be no reaction, although I dont’ think my husband is going to entertain him.


it’s obvious he really enjoys the “bashing by proxy”.
that’s why I would be very careful about socializing with the other parents or with any of the kids. He could use it against you. He has already established a connection with many of the children as the coach. If he realizes that you are involved he will try to use them against you too. it could be dangerous, these people have NO scruples. There is NO behavior too low for them to stoop to. I would stay away from the kids and perhaps try to get to know the parents, slowly, one at a time. And don’t do it too openly.

I may be being more paranoid than most, but my XP turned the entire neighborhood against me by talking to them about me, WHILE WE WERE STILL TOGETHER! That’s what is astonishing. What kind of person would listen to a “husband” bash his “wife” and think badly of the wife rather than the husband?
But I know that my P’s radar was finely tuned to ferret out sick people such as himself. So he noted that the neighbor is a husband thief. She outwardly admits that she prefers other peoples husbands over being married herself. So of course you know she is a P with husband envy. Well he knew this too and worked every angle, presented himself as a prize and had her go out and slander me by proxy.
The other neighbor was one of his drug customers before she even moved there. He smelled her out as a P and a practicing wiccan, I won’t even tell you how I think he got her to hate me. It’s too bizarre, I don’t have proof but I know him, I know how he works, it all fits.

I guess what I’m saying is that you cannot underestimate them and their fantastical imaginations for creating CHAOS. They are Lucifer himself. Believe me. It’s true.


I so believe you and can relate to this all too well! This is why I have stayed away from talking to anyone. I’m afraid to death. I’ve been down that road so many times with him. Yes, the kids and the parents are all very close to him and think he’s some kind of baseball hero. He’s pretty idolized out there, and walks in his glory.

The last time he “bashed by proxy,” he had his neighbor girl (that he had a relationship with) take me to court to try and get a protective order against me when I was 7 1/2 months pregnant. The lady also almost got me fired.

Here’s that story:
I was a school administrator at an Elementary School. My daugter was in 4th grade. The next door neighbor had a 6th grade girl who was in Middle School, and I think may have been having some adjustment problems. This other little girl was scaring my 4th grader, telling her that in Middle School, all of the kids swear and smoke and have weapons.

There was another story about a knife that this other girl had supposedly heard about or seen. Some kid supposedly had this knife in detention and “no one did anything about it.” My daughter was terrorized, and I wrote an email to my ex asking him to please deal with this. He, of course, did not do so and it kept happening.

I told my daughter these were all rumors and not to listen to this. She told me she did not want to go to Middle School, ever. I told her she needed to stop listening to all of this garbage and tell this other little girl that these were rumors.

My daughter ended up, not only confronting the little girl, but her mother (the woman that was seeing my ex). My daughter told them both, very firmly, that these stories about knives, etc. were rumors and lies, and that she didn’t want to hear them anymore.

My daughter was then punished by her father for being disrespctful to the neighbor. I texted him, asking him if he could tell me what was going on. He told me that these were not rumors. I texted him back asking if this had been reported to the school. He told me he didn’t think so, so I told him that I was going to report this then and was obligated to so so as an administrator in the district with knowledge of this.

I called the school police and reported this. I told them that I was an administrator in the district but that I was calling as a parent with a parent concern. I told them that this could be a rumor and that I didn’t know if this little girl had actually seen the knife or heard about it.

I then texted Sam that I had reported it, and that it might be better if the next door neighbor took her little girl in to school in the morning and went WITH her to the office because I was sure that they would be questioning her and I didn’t want her to be afraid.

He then texted me back, “It was two years ago, and a butter knife.” I called the campus police back and informed them of this.

The next day, they began an investigation and for whatever reason, the neighbor girl was searched.

The next thing I knew was that my supervising administrators were doing an investigation on me on whether I abused my administrative authority and conducted an unjust investigation at another school. It took three days to get the tape of me calling in to the campus police. Those were three days of hell for me at work until they got the tapes. Then, just when I thought it was o.k. at work, I found out she wrote to all of my district supervisors, a statement about me being dangerous around chidlren, full of all kinds of lies about me.

This was confusing for me and my district level supervisors. I was at a top level school and worked SO very hard for so many years to get there. I was then denied a promotion following this and was told that it was due to this letter that this person wrote.

At the same time, I was served with court papers for the protective order that this lady wanted. I had to go to court and try to prove that I never did a thing to her or her daughter! She wanted an order for herself, her daughter, and her son. My ex had provided her with emails that I had written him out of concern for my daughter, who was being scared by her daughter. Thank God the judge saw through all of this and did not issue the order. She read my emails and stated, “This sounds like a concerned mother.”

Then, for the next three years, until he got this new girlfriend he has now, this lady who took me to court and her son were on my son’s baseball team, and of course, drafted by my ex. I felt shunned every season by all of the other parents. She was the team mom, did not include me in anything or give me important information she was passing out to the other parents, left me off of the snack schedule, etc. I continued to go to games to see my son play, but got awful looks and stares from the other parents. My daughter had to hear all kinds of untrue stories about me from the other siblings at the games who had heard the stories from their parents, etc.

It was awful. But I go to these games for my son and no one else. And this is what I think I need to continue to do.


So you DO get it.
You’ve already experienced it.

There is a single common thread in both of our stories: emotion.

Everything your P did was about working your emotions. Concern for your daughter is an emotion. reaction to the letters and the knife, reaction to your daughter’s emotion, etc…
He used your emotions to trip you up and get yourself into these situations. My P tried to do the same to me. It worked for a while, but since I didn’t care about my neighbors, it didn’t drive me crazy. In fact, I’m so glad he did it because otherwise, how would I ever have IMAGINED the extreme lengths that he would go to? Not ever would I imagine that a grown man and my grown neighbors, would ever spend so much time sitting around thinking up schemes to make someone miserable. ESPECIALLY someone who was always being kind and helpful to all of them. They actually FOCUSED their hatred on my kind deeds! YEP! unbelievable but true. He told them that I thought I was a saint and presented this lie with such disdain that it made them hate me more and they kept trying to pull on my sympathy strings to make me dance. What kind of human being hates another for being sympathetic? Only a P. And they all did it so I know they were all P’s!

That’s why you must present yourself as emotionless, even when you are overwhelmed with emotion. You must train your daughter the same way, but NOT YET. Be very careful because she spends every other week with him and she won’t be able to NOT slip up and reveal your ‘GRAY ROCK STRATEGY’. You will have to either wait until she’s older, or try to train her covertly, in such a way that she doesn’t even realize it.



I am not a parent, so I don’t usually respond to the parental problems that are posted on this site, because I don’t think it is appropriate for me to do so.

I just want you to know that I think you are a GREAT MOM, and you and your kids are going to get through this just fine.
In the end, the sacrifices that you are making for your children, plus all of the “biting the bullet” that you will have to do with George/Sam? are going to pay off for you.

The one silver lining in all of this is at least your baseball-loving ex seems to be a pretty hands-on dad. Look at it this way, at least he is not a child abuser. He does not appear to be beating or sexually abusing these kids, from what I have read. So, THANK GOD for that.

I think all of the decisions you are making about possibly putting your son back onto his baseball team, and attending the games are good ones.

I have enough experience taking care of children to know that the one thing kids really understand is LOVE.
But, you already know this.

I agree with everyone who is telling you to stop letting him trigger emotional reactions out of you, especially in front of your kids. You are going to have to be calm, cool & collected at all times. Try to resist his attempts to gaslight or trigger a reaction out of you. It will be hard at first, but you can do it. Eventually, he will back off. Never let him see you sweat!

Just try to focus on your beautiful kids.

Good Luck!



Like Rosa, I am not a parent. However, I grew up with an S father and a malignant N mother. I agree with what Rosa says. Count your blessings that your ex isn’t abusing them. I was physically and mentally abused by my parents. My father tried to drown me when I was 8. Suffice it to say, I would have given anything to have had at least one parent in my corner.

You are also lucky in that your husband doesn’t rise to the bait of your ex. That must drive your ex absolutely bonkers. Score one for the good guys.

Awful as it is, your “sentence” does have a release date — the day your son and daughter each turn 18. By my calculations that is 6 years in your son’s case and 8 in your daughter’s. In the meantime, go the “wallpaper paste” route — as in be as interesting as… That will also drive him bonkers.

I also suggest that you keep a “dedicated” email address and cell phone number solely for your ex. And then I’d put it in a drawer and check it once a day — if that — and only on the days that the kids are with him. There is nothing, and I repeat nothing, that he has to say that is of any interest to you. If you check it more often than you need to, you are wasting energy on this oxygen thief (those subhumans who steal oxygen that is better used by us thinking, feeling humans).

Ox Drover

Dear Matt,

GREAT advice!!!

I haven’t officially welcomed you back, but am doing that NOW! Glad you are back and hope your trip was great! Glad to have your VOICE OF REASON and “COMMON GOOD SENSE” back here too! You seem to be able to cut to the chase and get to the bottom line so well. Guess that’s your “lawyer” training! Or is it? LOL

Hey, I met another great lawyer, though she is retired now, and will be working with her at the DV shelter near here and with the court apponted advocates for foster kids—though I am not taking on a case of a foster kid (too much for me right now) will just be doing education for the CASAs.


Hi again Matt,
Do you have a date in November that is officially the “no contact ” date. I would like to arrange to congratulate you on that day as it is mine on NOVEMBER the Ist and I am counting down the days Matt. It has been such a long journey…and so filled with trials and tribulations. I really want to celebrate it with you as I know it is approximately the same time and you gave me such strength to stay no contact reading your posts. So great to have you back.


I need you to stay in contact with me on lovefraud Rosa until November, as I am going through a rough patch. I know you will. Thankyou from the bottom of my heart. Love always,



Yes, you know I will.


Thankyou Rosa:
“In hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before the world began.” Titus 1:2
God never made a promise that was too good to be true.
So you and I will make it through Rosa, no matter what.


Thanks everyone for all of the great, super, super advice. I’m going to digest it all. What does an official date of “no contact” mean?



I am counting on that.


I need your prayers as i am going into court tomorrow re the ex husband has been charged. I don’t know if I will go into wps yet. It seems too big a move to get my head around. Its my decision.
love you.


Tilly, its not just Rosa you can stay in contact with. we are all here for you:)x Keep us all posted on what’s going on for you so we can support you.x



Of course, you know I will be praying for you.
I support your decision.
Gosh, Tilly, you have SO MUCH on your plate right now.
God has brought us this far, and He will see us through.
I know He will.
Love you, too. ((GIANT HUG!!))

P.S. Start carrying pepper spray with you, if you have not been doing so, and are feeling unsafe.
In fact, anything you can spray in someone’s face will suffice.
Do not allow yourself to be a sitting duck for anyone.
Be safe at all times, Tilly.

Let us know how things go in court.

Ox Drover

Dear Tilly,

It is a scary thing to go into court and testify, and like Rosa, I will be PRAYING FOR YOU! I believe the prayers will be answered positively! (((hugs))))

I hope that he rots in prison forever!

OVEN CLEANER is also a good spray to have along, it is really some GOOD PROTECTION if you need it!

There are lots of people here praying for you, Tilly! BE OF GOOD COURAGE! ((((hugs)))) Oxy


Dear Rosa:
Thankyou so much for being there for me today. I know that you know how much your suppport means to me Rosa. This is the hardest thing I have ever done. I will be thinking of you and your jokes (that I have written down !), They said the trial will be on for a long time. My art teacher suddenly feels like a welcome distraction.(but not really). She has told me I have to do an three extra (massive ) paintings to pass. But I am shaking to much to sketch them in court.
I have got constipated diarroeah ! I am keeping my son out of this one. So I need you Rosa. I will talk to you tonight.xoxoxo


JAH: Thankyou for supporting me.((((JAH)))

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