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By | April 28, 2010 245 Comments

TARGETED TEENS AND 20s: I met him on Facebook, was used for sex and dumped the next day

Editor’s note: Lovefraud received this e-mail from a reader whom we’ll call “Lara.”

About three months ago, I met a 34-year-old German banker from Munich online (he added me on Facebook), after being very hesitant to speak to him, I gave into his persistence and we started a whirlwind romance over the phone for two months. He asked me to meet him in Paris and I did a few weeks ago, only to be dumped the day after we had sex together. I have been asking myself for answers but it was only recently that my friend brought to my attention that Y (German banker) exhibited the key traits of a sociopath.

Y added me randomly on Facebook and we had one mutual friend (A fellow Korean Uni student at my university in New York). I messaged him asking if we had met, only for him to say that he “met another Lara in NY who looks like me.” I believed him but then later found out he also added my friend and a few other girls (some of them my friends) randomly on Facebook. I thought this was very weird behaviour as I do not understand why a grown man would add random younger girls on his Facebook all of whom he does not know.

After further investigation, I found out he was messaging a few of these girls too asking to “speak on the phone as he was curious about their voice,” which is exactly what he said to me. I found this very unnerving—a grown man messaging a plethora of younger girls on the Internet asking to “hear their voice on the phone.” I confronted him about this and he got incredibly defensive and sent me an incredibly long and eloquent email explaining why he added us on Facebook as a “social experiment.” He also called me paranoid and asked me how I could be concerned about Internet predators when I had more than a 1000 friends on my Facebook.

Talked on the phone

After saying no many times to a phone conversation, my curiosity took over me and one day I agreed to a brief conversation. I thought that if he turned out to be a creep, I would just block his number on my phone. Our phone conversation turned out to be alright—he was a decent and pleasant guy. However, he continued to call me every single day from then on, along with numerous text messaging.

Soon, he told me he had grown incredibly fond of me and was using affectionate terms like “baby.” I asked him why he was interested in me, as I am a 21-year-old university student in New York, who he has never met before. He told me I underestimated myself and that he liked me because I am “well traveled, educated and down to earth.” I just could not grasp how a 30+ year old banker from Munich with good looks would stoop so low as to find a romantic interest with much younger women on the Internet.

Intimate questions

Soon after we started talking on the phone, he started to be very inappropriate with me, asking personal and intimate questions. He knew I was very uncomfortable with this but he still persisted. He would tell me to “think of falling asleep in his arms,” “our kiss,” and then he would ask me to “fantasize having sex with him.”

I don’t know how he found the confidence to talk to me in this manner, as I never reciprocated his affection or romantic interest. I was uncomfortable, so I messaged a friend of his, which I found through his Facebook list, and asked her whether I should trust him. She responded immediately with glowing reviews about Y, saying she was good friends with him when he lived in London and that he was incredibly charming, successful, social and that a lot of women fancied him. However, despite all his inappropriate behaviour, I was so completely charmed by his looks, intelligence and wit that my judgment was practically impaired.

Fly to meet him

A few weeks after this, Y asked me when my next university break was, as he wanted to see me. I had one coming up in a month, in middle March. He insisted that I fly to Munich to see him. I told him “absolutely not.” I would never stoop so low as to fly to Munich to stay with a stranger I have never met before (as a girl I need to maintain a level of dignity and self-respect). He was very persistent and said I could stay with him and that we would drive to the mountains and the outskirts of Munich to ski. I told him I would not do that, and if he really wanted to see me, he could come to New York. He told me he could not take time off work to fly to New York and so I had to go to Munich.

Anyway, I ended up deciding to go to London to visit my friends during my university break. I told him he could come to London to see me but he was not satisfied with that as “London is not a romantic city and I would be around all my friends and not spend time with him.” He said he was willing to compromise and that we should spend a “romantic weekend in paris—just him and I.”

I was very hesitant and all my close girlfriends told me not to do it, as they felt he was trying to isolate me to a place where I do not know people or speak the language. However at this point I had already fallen for him so I agreed to it. I told him I wanted to have my separate room from him but he was completely and utterly adamant that we share a hotel room together. During this point of our phone conversations, he was already telling me that he felt like he could fall in love with me, that he had told his mother about me and that I should move to Munich next year after I graduate from Uni. I couldn’t help but believe and fall for his words.

Going to Paris

Two weeks before Paris, Y and I had started talking considerably less as his company was working on a major buy-out and I was occupied with exams. He said it was good for our relationship, as it would make us miss each other more. However, as days went by, he completely stopped texting me or calling me. Before Paris, we spoke once on the phone and it was a very brief conversation ”¦ he asked me about my week and I told him “it was very stressful along with hormonal problems due to my period.” He responded by saying, “Wow perfect timing that your period is over in time for Paris.” I was very disturbed by his comment—out of everything I told him about my stressful week, he was only concerned and delighted to know that I had just ended my period in time for Paris. I started to question what exactly he wants from me. All our phone conversations were heavily intimate where he would try dig hard to get intimate information about me, and he would force me to say things to him that I was not comfortable with.

I flew to London three Thursdays ago on a red eye and then took the Eurostar to Paris. Cut to the chase, when I first saw Y opening the hotel door for him, I thought he was incredibly good looking and tall in person. Three minutes into our meeting, he pretty much threw me on the bed and tried to undress me. I told him to stop it as I was uncomfortable and that I wanted to spend time talking to him first. He seemed visibly annoyed and agreed to go have a drink with me near the Trocodero. During our drink he was very cold, distant and aloof. He was NOT affectionate with me at all.

We went back to the hotel room and I did sleep with him and then the next day at brunch in Paris, he told me “it was over and that he could not see a future with me as I was too young for him.” I was so stunned and confused. Where did this sudden realisation come about? Months after telling me he was completely “obsessed” with me? He said that he became “rational and decided it would never work for him.”

Kicked me out

I started acting irrationally and even told him that it was unfair that he did not give us a chance and that he made me feel so vulnerable by coming all the way to Paris only to sleep with him and get dumped. He became incredibly defensive and angry and told me to go back to London that same night. I was resistant as I was so confused but he pretty much kicked me out and booked me a train ticket.

During the painful last few hours with him, he acted like a complete chauvinist—making me feel bad that he wasted his weekend coming to Paris and that he could have been so many other things in Munich. He started calling his Paris friends on his mobile phone while I was next to him asking if they would have “dinner with him that night,” and while we were walking back to the hotel, he even used his knuckles and pushed me from behind as he complained that “I was walking too slowly.” He even said I should be grateful as he has so many “women on Facebook who are interested in connecting with him.” It is almost like he forgot that HE was the one who connected with me on Facebook and pursued me RELENTLESSLY.

Y did not even send me off to the train station—he asked me to drop him off at Gallerie Lafayette (a shopping mall) because it was on the way to Gare Du Nord (the train station). During this whole time, I was still so numb and confused about the situation that I did not even act disappointed or hurt by him. I even suggested we try to stay friends.

Numb and confused

I went back to London that Saturday night completely numb, confused and shocked by the situation. I gave my heart to this stranger I met on Facebook who convinced me that he was obsessed and was falling in love with me—only to fly to Paris and be used for sex and dumped the next day.

It has been a few weeks since the situation occurred and I have become more rational and objective. My friends are all very disgusted by Y’s behaviour and have been trying to let me realise that what he did was “unkind and unacceptable” and that he was basically an “Internet predator casting a wide net for young girls on Facebook.” I still have trouble seeing it that way, as I keep remembering the person I spoke to on the phone for months. I want to believe that everything he said to me was real.

However, the anger now has set in a little and I cannot believe he did that to me. We have not spoken since. Many times I feel like talking to him as I want answers—but I know this is wrong. I recently found out that Y asked another girl out on a date (one that he also added randomly on Facebook). Initially I was enraged and jealous that he moved on so fast. However, my friends try to tell me that as a sociopath, he has basically found his “next victim.”

There’s still a part of me that believes I was not good enough for him and did not meet his standards, which is why he discarded me. I also feel that perhaps I “deceived” him on Facebook, because he felt I was not as pretty in real life as I was online. I am trying to rid myself of those thoughts that are only self-destructive. I am taking it day by day ”¦ seeing a counselor. I cannot let this situation make me crumble in despair for it will be letting him win. I need to become stronger from this and move on with my life knowing that I learnt an invaluable lesson.


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Ox Drover

Dear Lara,

Thank you for sharing your story on LoveFraud. I am sure it must have been incredibly painful to share such a story. Fortunately, people on this blog do understand what it is to be targeted and dumped or used.

Whether or not he is a sociopath or not is really beside the point, the point is that he told you these “wonderful things” and you believed them. In spite of wanting to believe them, you also had some hesitation I think I am hearing as well.

That was your warning, your “gut” if you will, telling you not to trust this stranger that you have already caught in some inconsistencies.

I am glad that yhou are seeing a counselor and that you are working hard to not crumble in despair for this troll to hook you in.

I do suggest that you hang around here and read and read and read on this blog, all the older articles about how to spot a sociopath (or even just a toxic liar) and how to spot those red flags and listen to your “gut”—-you will recover, in the meantime be CAUTIOUS about new people you meet (internet or anywhere) and let people EARN your trust not just talk their way into it. Again, welcome to LF! God bless.

one/joy_step_at_a_time

lara, you said” I confronted him about this and he got incredibly defensive and sent me an incredibly long and eloquent email explaining why he added us on Facebook as a “social experiment.” He also called me paranoid and asked me how I could be concerned about Internet predators when I had more than a 1000 friends on my Facebook.’

oh jaysus, this sounds so familiar. i am just starting to uncover some of the things the ppath of my acquaintance did – mostly through flashbacks, and this really describes the process she used.

please do hang around here and read and learn. you are able to articulate what happened and that’s a great step. the more you learn the easier it will be to see what the did, and how he did it.

you said: ‘There’s still a part of me that believes I was not good enough for him and did not meet his standards, which is why he discarded me. ‘ i have a bit of this feeling in me too. i have had to keep it under wraps until i had the time and energy to dela with it. seems that time has come.

tkae good care of yourself. welcome to lovefraud.

best,
one step

behind_blue_eyes

Lara;

I think many people don’t understand how painful these short-lasting manipulations can be. As being a victim myself, it came be hard.

It took me over a year to learn some vital things that have really helped:

1) Accept that no matter how charming, sociopathic, manipulative, covert-aggressive and other “toxic” people exist.

2) You will never figure out their motives or be able to answer the question “why.”

3) You are desirable — predators don’t go for the undesirable.

4) Concentrate on their actions, not their words.

5) Dig deep, including all the warning signs you missed.

Wikipedia’s article on Psychological Manipulation is an excellent read. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

The “Basic Manipulative Strategy of a Psychopath” is particularly valuable:

1: Assessment Phase
Some psychopaths are opportunistic, aggressive predators who will take advantage of almost anyone they meet, while others are more patient, waiting for the perfect, innocent victim to cross their path. In each case, the psychopath is constantly sizing up the potential usefulness of an individual as a source of money, power, sex or influence. Some psychopaths enjoy a challenge while others prey on people who are vulnerable. During the assessment phase, the psychopath is able to determine a potential victim’s weak points and will use those weak points to seduce.

2: Manipulation Phase
Once the psychopath has identified a victim, the manipulation phase begins. During the manipulation phase, a psychopath may create a persona or mask, specifically designed to ’work’ for his or her target. A psychopath will lie to gain the trust of their victim. A psychopath’s lack of empathy and guilt allows them to lie with ease – they don’t see the value of telling the truth unless it will help get them what they want.

As interaction with the victim proceeds, the psychopath carefully assesses the victim’s persona. The victim’s persona gives the psychopath a picture of the traits and characteristics valued in the victim. The victim’s persona may also reveal, to an astute observer, insecurities or weaknesses the victim wishes to minimize or hide from view. As an ardent student of human behavior, the psychopath will then gently test the inner strengths and needs that are part of the victim’s private self and eventually build a personal relationship with the victim.

The persona of the psychopath – the “personality” the victim is bonding with – does not really exist. It was built on lies, carefully woven together to entrap the victim. It is a mask, one of many, custom-made by the psychopath to fit the victim’s particular psychological needs and expectations. The victimization is predatory in nature; it often leads to severe financial, physical or emotional harm for the individual. Healthy, real relationships are built on mutual respect and trust; they are based on sharing honest thoughts and feelings. The mistaken belief that the psychopathic bond has any of these characteristics is the reason it is so successful.

3: Abandonment Phase
The abandonment phase begins when the psychopath decides that their victim is no longer useful. They abandon their victim and move on to someone else. In the case of romantic relationships, a psychopath will usually seal a relationship with their next target before abandoning their current victim. Abandonment can happen quickly and can occur without the current victim knowing that the psychopath was looking for someone new. There will be no apologies for the hurt and pain they cause because psychopaths do not appreciate these emotions.

Lara, I am so sorry you had such an uncomfortable experience, especially after you had resisted this persons advances for some time. It sounds a lot like a date rape, using words instead of drugs. It also sounds to me like this person likes the challange of luring young attractive women into his net, and quickly bores once he has “conquered” them. And the knuckles in the back bit is downright chilling.

I am surprised that your freinds twigged to the Sociopath bit so easily, altho his behavior would fit the pattern. But it is a good thing to learn about their existance and to become aware of some of the red flags, altho preferably not through bitter experience. What makes them so effective at their game is US, and our determination to take people at their word, to expect that there is “good in everyone”, to try and accept strangers with an open and balanced perspective. That is what they use and abuse. Our good hearts and sense of fair play.

Puleese do not doubt your own worthiness over a person who could be so cruel and heartless, just consider yourself lucky that he is far far far away. And whatever he did say that caused you to be attracted to him ( besides the looks) you can rest assured is a well rehearsed “hook”. If you have any doubts, get a freind to engage him, from a safe distance, and see what happens.

Please don’t beat yourself up over this strange, inexplicable event in your life. But learn from it. The sad truth is that one in 25 of us are S/P/N/’s. Spotting them early and knowing how to steer clear may end up being a valuable lesson, despite the pain and confusion it caused you.

I would also take a wager that he is possibly not a “banker” and there were no freinds in Paris. But that’s just me.

Wishing you all the best,

ErinBrock

Lara:
Thank you for sharing your experience with us!!!
It took a lot of courage for you to write your experience out.

Please know….IT”S NOT YOU…IT”S HIM!

He was like a heatseeking missile……and you didn’t have the armour to protect yourself!

Keep your head high, educate yourself on Cluster B personality disorders and continue to share your story….
We can onnly change ourselves……

Good luck!

verity

Hi Lara, your story reminded me of the stories in the book The Emotional Rape Syndrome, which I found very useful when I started my healing. The terrible thing which happens in our brain when we find out we’ve been used. It’s a major shock and it takes a lot of work to get over. It’s also such a shock to even discover that these people exist. I can’t believe I got to middle age before I got up close and personal with one of them.

I had the self-doubt that you have too. I thought it was because I wasn’t good enough and it took a long time to get over that. It’s how they make you feel but it’s not real. My spathy/narc would only have been happy with Miss World, and only then until he got bored with her, which he would have done because it’s all about the chase for them. I’m building up my self-esteem and it does get better. Don’t take a disordered person’s opinion as having any meaning.

I wish you well. This site will help you no end. All the best to you.

Wow, behind_blue_eyes, that wikipedia entry is spot on! Thank you for that. It’s exactly right and now I know that the narc I met was a spath for sure.

pollyannanomore

Lara – thankyou for sharing your story with us – we understand the pain of being discarded as we have all been through it in one way or another.

You sound like a really mature, switched on, empathic young woman and this man targetted you to make you go against your own moral standards – this is common behaviour for psychopaths / sociopaths. They seek to corrupt everything good in their targets to try to make the targets like them in some way – this allows them then to believe that everyone is like them.

Please stick around and read lots here – learning is our best defence against future exploitation and pain. There are some good books too that have really helped me to heal from the destructive relationship I was in:
Women who love psychopaths by Sandra Brown and Liane Leedom – can;t recommend this one highly enough – it outlines the characteristics of both the abuser and the victim and spells out the process by which we are won over ie brainwashing and being placed under a ‘spell’ of sorts.

The sociopath next door by Martha Stout – excellent read that shows how ‘normal’ they can appear at first glance.

Stalking the Soul – excellent analysis of emotional abuse tactics and how they literally destroy the victim.

There is also lots available online – google narcissism, sociopathy or psychopathy and you will find plenty. Symptoms of narcissism are quite similar to sociopathy. Reading lots helped me to understand what happened and that it wasn’t my fault. It sounds like you are turning the situation over and over in your mind – this is common in the aftermath of these encounters – we try to make sense of something that makes no sense.

You have suffered a profound betrayal and it causes you to question everything you believed about the world, yourself and other people- it shakes your foundations to the core and is a difficult process of development to go through. Please be good to yourself during this time. Writing it all out in detail may also help you when you are ready to undertake this work. I am doing this at the moment and have been for months little by little as I can manage to face it – it really helps me to integrate the experience into my life history and make sense of it.

Welcome to Lovefraud and sorry you are here! You will find a supportive community here of people who understand what you have gone through and will be able to relate to the feelings and thoughts that come up as you heal from this.

Dani S

Lara, thank you for your story. You sound like a very smart young women. You have sadly been taken for a ride but dont get down on yourself, it had happened to the best of us!
The hardest thing is overcoming the confusion. You had the red flags right from the start but these people as so good and so convincing you did nothing wrong and you are good enough. He wouldn’t have taken no for an answer, he wanted you, the more you pulled back the more he wanted to play the game. It is about the game, it is what thrills them and drives them.
I am sorry that you met one and I wish you all the very best… Our thoughts and understanding are with you 🙂

learning

Dear Lara,

Thank you so much for sharing your story. This is a HUGE happening on these social networks. Amongst our family and friends predators ARE lurking. Especially targeted are the college/highschool students but thats not to say they also target many many others.

I have a FB account to keep in touch with my out of state family, my old schoolmates and to monitor my daughters :). They werent allowed a FB page unless they allowed me to be on it! I have disciplined them or brought to their attention “potential unsafe choices” they have made –ie. listing their telephone number, or joining a group that teens formed online that was inapropriate but funny or popular so they “joined” or just innocent things they feel would not be a problem until I enlighten, educate, inform them and then they “get it” or say wow, i never thought of it that way. Its been a great tool for me to teach them how to protect themselves or rather “give thought” to their choices and potential outcomes..etc.

I am going to take this opportunity to view your story as if it were my eldest daughter. And while I join every single poster who has shared with you the fact that this man WAS a predator and he conned you and manipulated you and emotionally abused you and really did a number on probably so many good kind caring SMART beautiful INNOCENT women, it is proof positive of how whether its online on phone or in person — they specialize in infiltrating minds, saying all the right things, things we want to hear, they are persistent, calls, texts, attention, invasive, sexual pressure/questions/intent… etc. they get us to eventually drop our guard and BELIEVE THEM, or say just enough to get us curious to partake.

I congratulate you on not going to Munich, Im sure many a woman has, which in fact makes it easier on him not to have to travel, and just dump them immediately after they have sex with him and send them away. You were a bit more challenging (thus him being annoyed that he had to travel — but still the outcome was the same — because its a sick game for them.

Before I read your story, just this week I logged on to my FB account and for the first time there was a friend request from a person I did not recognize or know (red flag for me) Instinctively I went to his page and it said we had 3 mutual friends (green flag for me) – but they were friends from HIGHSCHOOL that even in highschool I was never close to (redflag for me) plus I just had a weird feeling about it and I didnt accept! 10 years ago I probably would not have thought twice about it, but now that I have experienced unhealthy toxic people, I am way more self-aware of making choices that mostly benefit me, protect me and keep me on a healthy path.

Things I would say to my own daughter after possibly experiencing what you did. Warning: these may be unpopular comments, or received by some here as possible “blame” — but I will say in advance — its furthest from my truth – this isnt about blame – its about LEARNING about THEM and even more impt. about OURSELVES and OUR RIGHT TO OUR CHOICES AND BEING INFORMED, KNOWLEDGE = pOWER! This is how I would educate/ bring awareness and allow my daughter to make choices to protect herself or make changes going forward in her life.

1. take your friends and families advice very seriously when it comes to their assessment of a potential partner/relationship. They know you and care about you and love you — sometimes they see things we cannot.

2. While saying NO to flying out to Munich to meet a total stranger was a very good choice — choosing to meet in paris is no different, except it was more on your terms… but still it was agreeing to meet a stranger in a potentially isolating place. Who knows what could have been. There is nothing wrong with saying, if you would like to meet me you will have to come meet me in my hometown with my family and friends. If the answer is no – then this is not someone to pursue getting to know.

3. If at anytime ANYTHING FEELS OLD, MAKES YOU CONFUSED, or you cant grasp or understand… ie. why he would pursue someone so much younger online…why he would become sexual so quickly and make you uncomfortable…weird behaviors… odd comments… THESE ARE ALL RED FLAGS – you were wise to question so many things, but once you get answers you must ACT and END the CONTACT.

4. Life has a way of bringing goodness and good people into our lives. They are people who just flow so nicely in our lives, respecting us, listening to us consistently treating us with respect and kindness and understanding. We just have no red flags or bad internal feelings, perhaps a disagreement but it is sought to be resolved by both parties not just one. And life has a way of bringing challenges and BAD people into our lives. They arrive in unexpected ways, but interesting ways or exciting ways — yet they always come with an air of “somethings just not right – or peak our curiosity more than “others” or push our boundaries or come on very strong — its up to us to become educated and aware and proceed ahead in our lives KNOWING AND ACCEpTING NOT EVERYONE IS LIKE US, OR NOT EVERYONE HAS GOOD INTENTIONS.

5. Rely on ACTIONS. Decide based upon ACTIONS. Do not just listen to peoples words. Sociopaths just seem to know how to get into our psyche if WE LET THEM. Take things SLOW. Get to know ON YOUR TERMS. Do not be pressured to do this or say that or meet. If there is any pressure at all – ITS NOT RIGHT.

6. This has NOTHING to do with beauty or not living up to his standard. It might even be that your insistence on not going to Munich and not giving in right away in the hotel room, were signs that you WANTED TO pROTECT and RESpECT yourself and make healthy choices for yourself — you were not a pushover like he seeks out. You may have saved yourself so much more by not being a totally “EASY” target… he may have continued USING AND ABUSING you if you made it really easy for him!!! But you made it clear that you DO respect yourself and he doesnt really go for women who respect themselves and put themselves first!!! SO GOOD FOR YOU!!!

7. people have to EARN your trust. They cant just show up in your life and from day one you trust them. They have to EARN it. By respecting you, by keeping their word, by never treating you badly or making up excuses. You are ENTITLED to listen to your inner guidelines and TRUST yourself first – NOT THEM/OTHERS.

8. Its what they do (for a sick living) that ultimately puts us at a disadvantage from the start. But its also the CHOICES we make that can make the difference between pursuing and getting them the heck out of our lives/our worlds. They cant do what they do if we dont let them. Its very very very hard to know what to do when we have never been made aware about these people or when weve never had any experience with them, we dont have the tools to deal with them. Until after our first encounter — we all strive to make sure it never happens again. Could it? Anything is possible. But we reduce the risk/chances when we become self-aware and more aware about all the different kinds of people and how they operate in the world. WE CANT CHANGE WHAT THEY DO, BUT WE CAN CHANGE HOW WE pROTECT OURSELVES.

Im glad you have shared your story. Thank you. My two teenage daughters will be reading your story tonight. It will change their lives FOR THE BETTER, and you having shared your story here and reading the many articles and responses and also reading books (look at LF’s bookstore) WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOR THE BETTER TOO! Im sorry you had to experience a toxic unhealthy human being – we learn and grow and change — they dont.

bluejay

Lara,

A sociopath does not care about the wreckage that they cause in others’ lives. Thankfully, you will never have to see this jerk ever again. If anyone has a problem, it’s him, the sociopath. He is SICK. When I read your story, I was so glad to know that you got away from him (that you are safe), not knowing what this man is capable of, what his actual history includes. Always listen to your gut, having learned that this is what I must do too. Take care, being so thankful that you will be okay.

Buttons

Lara, it sure took courage to post your story, here. Your story is horrible, heinous, and very, very important and I’m grateful that you were compelled to share it. I can’t even imagine how terrifying it must have been. Thank goodness, he didn’t string you along for longer than he did!

You’ll be just fine, my dear, even though this has been a horrible ordeal. You’ve learned a very valuable lesson, and that is to TRUST your SELF!

bulletproof

I’m clinging on to what behindblueyes says:

3) You are desirable predators don’t go for the undesirable.

need to beleive this or I will end up alone for the rest of my life. I feel really detestable because he treated me like that. I know things in my head but my body has been hurt badly.

Ox Drover

Dear Bulletproof,

YOU ARE DESIRABLE—the feeling that we get from them that we are not desirable is a total lie! It is their hateful legacy to us, to get us to feel badly about ourselves so they can feel superior! NOT true, it is like everything about them, A LIE!

I realize that my X-BF-the-P is totally undesirable, not me! He has nothing but lies and more lies to offer anyone! So what is so desirable about that? About him? He remarried a couple of years ago, to a nice woman, so he could have a respectable wife to keep his harem from wanting him to get married to them. It isn’t gonna happen. But I actually feel sorry for his wife, because she will eventually find out. I found out thank goodness before I married the beast! It is HIM that is not desirable, not us!

(((Hugs)))) and God bless.

alohatraveler

Lara,

UGH… I hate that this happened to you. I met a guy in one of my classes back in college. He started paying all kinds of attention to me. He invited me over to study at his house. We ended up in bed together and I will never forget what happened. When he was “done” he rolled over and looked at me. He said, “I have this problem. Once I sleep with a girl, I don’t like her anymore.” I left and he never spoke to me in class again.

Remembering this is sickening to me.

I feel overwhelmed sometimes by the number of bad people out there. Right now, all I can see is bad.

I am glad I read your story today. It reminds me to be so very careful out there.

Buttons

{{{Bulletproof}}} The ex spath used to say, “What man would even put UP with you, let alone want you?” I remembered what I was like BEFORE the spath, and I’m still that person, but evolved and moving in the direction that I need to be.

No, I’m not pretty, anymore. Yes, I’m obese. Yes, I have a lot of issues, but guess what? I actually am beginning to LIKE Buttons. Buttons may not look like an airbrushed centerfold, but I’m witty, smart, loving, and honest. And, I don’t need anyone else to validate Buttons.

You don’t need someone else to validate you, either, Bulletproof. You are smart enough to have gotten yourself out and you are searching and growing. What does “desirable” mean, anyway? Is it the spath’s definition of a porn actress, or the inner qualities that surpass the physical?

one/joy_step_at_a_time

buttons – you don’t need to be a centerfold to attract a spath, just have an apt, a wallet, compassion, etc…aka SUPPLY.

bird

Lara,
Read women who love sociopaths. You sound typical of one (just like me). Excitement seekers who get a thrill out of hopping planes and meeting strangers. I have done it too, and you are actually lucky you were dumped right after the first time. I was strung along for a couple years and then discarded at 6 months pregnant after promises of family love the whole time. It’s important to know that you have the trait of excitement seeking, because it’s a trait you share with sociopaths and it will be a common link that will bring you together with one. Surprisingly enough not ALL women would hop a plane to meet a stranger in a foreign country (but we would). It’s not that we have to change who we are, it’s just that we need to understand our traits so we protect ourselves. Fyi-if he’s the real deal, this isn’t the last you will hear from him. Stay no contact girl, because he will still be able to seduce and abuse you again. Take care out there

Ox Drover

Dear Bird,

You gave some good insight to Lara! Glad to see you around. Hope you are doing well and feeling better than last time and that my Baby Birdie is doing well. He must be getting to be such a big boy noW! ((((Hugs)))) and always my prayers!

bird

Oxd-we are doing well. I hope you are doing well also

behind_blue_eyes

Here is a lesson in learning. Last November, in a Berlin, Germany bar, I met this guy from Luxembourg. We chatted for about an hour, he seemed like a nice guy. He was attractive, a lawyer, spoke French and German… We exchanged phone numbers. Then he disappears… A bit latter, I see him attached to this somewhat unattractive (IMHO) German guy. Luc see me: “help me, I need to get away from this guy…”

I laughed at him and said, “we reap what we sow. I will call you tomorrow…” The next day I call him. “How did it go?” Luc’s response, “I jumped in a cab without him and went to my hotel…”

Over the following months, we chatted a bit on Facebook, but nothing more than that. However, from some of his posting I am beginning to think he is a serious, together kind of guy.

About two months ago he IMs me. “I did not realize you were back in New York City. I have never been there and I would love to come over in June…”

We chat for a couple of hours and all seems very nice. “I have room at my place, you don’t need to get a hotel…” I also add that this was not a sexual advance and if he did want to stay at my place, it would only be as friends.

He was very happy about my offer. The Luc asks me a question. “I am your type? You are very much my type…” To this, I respond yes, but make it clear to him that if he wants to stay at my place, there should be no expectation of sex. However, if, we seem to really like each, I would rule that option out. I then ask him what he likes to do, if he wants to go to museums, a play. I also told him that due to my health and my then pending open-heart surgery, I did not drink any more and would not me joining him at clubs and bars every night if that is what he wanted to do. Luc told me he was not really into all that and was more of a “cultural” person.

Then he gets very flattering toward me as we chat a bit more. It was getting late in Europe so Luc logged out. Later in the evening, I sent him a nice message with some ideas on things to do and such. He did not respond.

I see him on Facebook and I send him an IM. He does not respond. I try once more, he does not respond. THREE STRIKES.

While I have not “unfriended him” it has been over a month since my last attempt to contact him. I have no intention of making any attempt to contact him again.

I am learning…

Ox Drover

Dear Blue_eyes,

Yep, we do need to learn, but I WILL BET A DOLLAR TO A HOLE IN A DOUNUT THAT YOU WILL HEAR FROM HIM AGAIN. LOL

learning

Dear Blue-eyes,

I bet my bottom dollar Oxy is right!!! And I hope you never respond to him and further that you simply delete him before giving the chance to waltz in and out of your life yet another time. You have the 3 strikes rule, but you havent deleted him as a friend? Remember to act upon the boundaries you have set for yourself and how others can treat you.

As I am learning and continue to learn I wanted to share with you that some of the choices you were making with him were possibly setting you up to become a shoe-in victim.

Based upon the fact that you exchanged numbers and HE disappeared, really suggests that no attempts be made by you to pursue anything further with him. By chance you bump into him with ANOTHER guy, and he basically pleads with you to “save him” from the guy (wonder how many times he does that when he is out)… anyway you shared that it was YOU who said “Ill call you tomorrow” — probably best not to go there with a guy who has already disappeared once.. but you gave him benefit of doubt, as we all do at times.

Reading “posts” can NEVER ever tell us the truth about a personality. A serious together kind of guy who has your number but only chooses to FB you on and off is a red flag…

When he mentions coming to NYC… you automatically offer him a room at your place. I think it was setting you up for becoming a potential victim… let him get a hotel, he didnt even ask for a place to stay, you offered it to him – that could have really been used against you.

Im glad you addressed the sexual aspect of rooming together and you were upfront and honest about your lifestyle and general likes/dislikes about clubs, etc.

He did not respond. THANK GOODNESS . Because I was getting concerned that he may have taken you up on your offer and taken advantage of your good kind decent self. Remember LET OTHERS EARN YOUR TRUST…. perhaps if he had visited and stayed at a hotel and you got to know him over the course of several days and grew closer via phone and in person – eventually you could offer him to stay one time down the road….

UNFRIEND HIM. Dont let yourself get tempted or hung up on why he disappeared… red flags are before us for reasons — warnings– you are learning in terms of not attempting to contact him again — but to be able to say you have learned you will have unfriended him.

In my book 3 strikes is WAY to many. One and done!!! And I share all of my thoughts with you because you share that you really are a very friendly giving caring person… let others really EARN that part of you. Dont give it away!

Glad you are learning…thats the first step 🙂

Ox Drover

Dear Learning,

GREAT ADVICE and great rationale to back it up! I agree with Learning, Blue, I think her take on the “save me from him” ploy was just that, an attention grabbing PLOY!!!! hee hee

You know the old saying “two heads are better than one” well in the LF case a BUNCH of heads are better than one!~!!!! LF ROCKS and so do you Learning!

kim frederick

Yeah, Blue-eyes, I think the whole,”save me from him,” gig is pretty reprhensible, because remember if he’ll do it with you, he’ll do it to you. Next time it’ll be you, having a wonderfull time, being told how wonderfull you are, beginning to let your guard down, and falling in love with this wonderfull, charming man, and he’ll be mouthing these words over your shoulder to the good-looking young guy in the back of the room.

To me it shows a lack of integrety, dishonesty, and bad charactor. He’s totally degrading the guy he’s with, and thinks he’s making points with you. YUCK, YUCK. DID I SAY YUCK?

erin1972

Lara-your story is sad to me but I’m glad you put it out here. Please read all the posts here because being here will really help you deal. It has helped and it still helping me. I am really starting to wonder if there are way more spaths out there than we think. Now since I’ve educated myself I see through everyone and don’t trust anyone either. No trust will be given based on someone’s words-only their actions. People have to earn my trust now and I am quick to throw out anyone who is toxic in my life. I am careful with facebook. I recently had a guy from work who is classic spath ask to be my friend on fb and I am not going to allow that. I spend WAY too much time with people at work and they are not going to be a part of my facebook. I keep my home life and work life totally separate. I have learned so much about me and the importance of being good to myself and respecting myself and only associating with people who treat me the way I deserve to be treated. Everyone here will be of great help to you. ((hugs))

behind_blue_eyes

To all;

Thanks again for the support. I think many of us are at risk for sociopathic manipulation due to our own honesty and idealism. This often makes it hard for us to see the reality of the predator’s game.

While I don’t know enough of Luc to label him a sociopath, his actions are toxic and selfish, enough reason to stay away. Despite all his Facebook postings regarding respect and romance, he is merely after sex.

I see an pattern too that I did not understand but now I do. Luc, talks about respect but showed me little, both in the bar and afterwards. It was just days before my operation (and he knows of this) that he “charmed” me into agreeing to his NYC visit. You would think that a “respectful” person would show some concern in this area.

Of the multiple conundrums displayed by Jamie, the one that baffled me most was that he views himself as an “honorable” person who is only interested in a monogamous relationship. Yet, he is not trustful and wants “forgiveness” should he stray. See, there is much you can learn about somebody when they answer nearly 1000 questions about themselves.

None of this made sense to me until I realized it is all about control.

Luc is not respectful. He wants to be “respected” because it is a symbol of control; if you “respect” me, you do what I want, while at the same time I do whatever I feel like doing.

Jamie does not want a monogamous relationship. He wants others to be monogamous to him, Being a flight attendant, he can come up with 1000 excuses to maintain his honour. “I was dunk. I was 3000 miles from home on a flight and lonely. My gay crew mate came on to me…”

Let me pose one question? Do most of these predators stayed fixated on one target until they loose interest, or are they able to simultaneously manipulate multiple individuals?

Jamie and Luc seem to be “in the moment” fixated. However, 10 years ago I was involved with another sociopath, a guy named Paul who was playing multiple people simultaneously. Me, a women and a third guy…

PS; I am fully expecting Luc to contact me at some point. Jamie, doubtful as he has a pattern of cutting people out of his life. I am presuming that Jamie knows I stumbled upon his online profile, since the website settings are such that it allows users to track visitors to his page.

If so, then Jamie knows I figured everything out and he would be angry that his cover is blown. Since has a pattern of shifting blame, I am a “cyberstalker” to be shunned.

Rosa

Blue Eyes:

“Do most of these predators stay fixated on one target until they loose interest, or are they able to simultaneously manipulate multiple individuals?”

From what I have seen, they are definitely manipulating multiple people simultaneously.
Isn’t pathological lying part of their essence? I would say yes.
Just because they may not be manipulating multiple people romantically, does not mean they are not manipulating others.
They could be manipulating others professionally, taking advantage of someone else’s social connections, or playing on elderly people’s sympathies for $$, etc.
Manipulation is not just for sex.

Psychopaths like to break people off from their friends and families, and create rivalries/jealousies in people.

I believe part of the reason for this is because it keeps everyone distracted from what the psychopath is doing, and it also prevents people from getting together and “comparing notes” on the psychopath.

Because, once people start networking and talking to each other….that’s when the lies are exposed….and everything starts to unravel from there.

You say that Jamie & Luc were “in the moment” fixated.
But, is it possible even Jamie & Luc were manipulating other people simultaneously?
Is it possible that Jamie & Luc were very good at making you “feel” like you were the only one, when in fact, you probably were not?
That’s another trick psychopaths are very good at, especially during the seduction phase, is making you feel SO SPECIAL….like you are the only one.
But, in actuality, it’s hardly ever the case.
Be careful of that trick.

~When sociopaths are in control, they rarely leave a relationship without having another already lined up.
How do you think they accomplish this if they are not manipulating multiple people simultaneously?

bulletproof

thanks Oxy and Buttons

I have to work everyday on validating my self….that’s why I post on lovefraud with my struggles and hopefully to arrive at a better attitude so I can have another relationship! (not happening any way fast)

Oxy you say:

I realize that my X-BF-the-P is totally undesirable, not me! He has nothing but lies and more lies to offer anyone! So what is so desirable about that?

Oh yeah…I totally agree, re affirming my new attitude, we are desireable because spaths do not go for dead people…they want the loving energy to feed off..I was the big juicy orange he squeezed every drop out of before he dropped me in the bin….takes a while to re juice.

Buttons you ask a great question:

What does “desirable” mean, anyway? Is it the spath’s definition of a porn actress, or the inner qualities that surpass the physical?

IT’S THE INNER QUALITIES THAT SURPASS THE PHYSICAL- YAAAAYY!

Buttons

{{{Bulletproof}}} That’s the girl! Some of the most radiant human beings I know would not fit into our societal definition of “beautiful.” Nevertheless, when I am in the presence of these people, I am envigorated, enlightened, and feel a sense of 100% agape. They ARE beauty and they ARE so very, very valuable.

behind_blue_eyes

Rosa;

You are right about both of them. Luc’s suave French act is merely his mask to get what he wants. Of course I always seem to forget that Jamie was active on a dating website…

I guess in the case of Jamie, my ego prevented me from accepting the possibility that he “found” somebody else, as I thought might be the case from one of his last emails.

Here is a hint to all. When somebody associates a name with a person — I went out with my friend “Catherine” for lunch, that is a friendship thing. When somebody does not, that is sexual.

Thus, when told something like “On Saturday, I went out with my friend Catherine for lunch and then had a late night playing guitar hero with a friend…” read that to mean the “friend” is more than just a “friend.”

Lies of omission are used by all sociopaths.

jennifer1011

Please, is anyone even surprised by this? My ex spath has more than a thousand friends on Facebook, and at LEAST 80% of them are teenage girls or girls in their twenties that he has NEVER MET. Random friend requests on Facebook…my daughter gets them and her profile is private. What kind of man in their late 40’s friend requests little girls and young women he’s never met…a PREDATOR.

Twice Betrayed

My PX was in his late 40’s and had an affair with a 19 year old and continued to chase teens and younger females till the day I dumped him. He has married a woman his age, but I suspect it’s for show and he still continues his predatory behavior.

Ox is right, always listen to that ‘gut’ feeling, that feeling way down in your stomach that feels uneasy, telling you something is not right here. Follow that, it’s our protection. As I have said before, man is the only animal that overrides this, animals move and survive using it. Don’t listen to the words being spun, listen to your instincts. Obey them! I try to always do this now and my life is far better!!!!

As far as the rejection he used by saying you were not as pretty as your facebook picture etc…that’s just devaluation, a common tactic used by sociopaths to project blame back onto you. Also, to destroy your self esteem. These men have deep seated issues that have nothing to do with us at all. They are not female ‘lovers’, they are female haters. The goal is to destroy and sex is used to ‘hook’ and overpower. It’s not based on desire, it’s based on power, control and degradation. All the pretty words he used in the beginning were just to beguile you. In the garden of Eden, the serpent [devil] “beguiled” Eve. What is the definition of beguile: To deceive, hoodwink. There you have it. For the sociopath it’s all about the con. Never, ever forget that. I’m not going to.

Nicolaid

Dear Lara,

I live one mile away from the Trocadero.

A few days ago, I discovered the « seduction community », an informal network of men who practice what they call « the game », hoping to become « Pick Up Artists » (PUA).

Basically, their underlying assumption is that many women will never consider dating a decent guy, but will easily fall for assholes.

These men claim they used to be considerate towards women but were systematically ignored. The very women who had rebuffed them with contempt were mysteriously attracted to blatant jerks and then whined because they had been used for sex before being dumped unceremoniously.

So these « beta males » decided they had to work hard in order to look like those sexy assholes. Their mantra : improve your « jerk quotient » and learn to mimick « alpha males ». Their descriptions of alpha males and the various tips they give to wannabe PUAs remind me of psychopaths : confidence, cockiness, shamelessness, superficial charm, charisma, self-entitlement, lack of anxiety, glibness, callousness, manipulativeness.

Their aim is to become some kind of artificial psychopath to deserve the longings of young ladies like yourself. They believe that if they treat women like objects, their « targets » will sheepishly and willingly submit and spread their legs open.

The sad truth is that your story proves them right.

I don’t think you are that naive. Any 21 yo could have seen from the very start that this guy was fishing for sex on an industrial scale. Still, you went ahead. You focused on skin-deep qualities (the height, the status, the age, his « charm », his good looks) and disregarded every red flag on the process.

If more people knew that you are willing to cross the ocean just to have a quickie with an unknown who ingratiated himself with cheap flattery, you would soon have 10 000 men eagerly solliciting you, from all around the world, to become their friend on Facebook. Even though he was « very cold, distant and aloof », « NOT affectionate (”) at all », you slept with him. You rewarded him for being a jerk. What’s the point of being nice?

Unfortunately, many women « reward » psychopaths to the point that some otherwise regular men wonder whether they should try to emulate them.

There’s no way out of psychopathy, because so many women choose to mate with them, even when it’s obvious (except for the woman) that the man lacks moral qualities. Think of Rihanna, Sonia Rolland, Sandra Bullock, Salvatore Briatore, etc.

You should read Roissy’s blog and Devlin’s essay entitled Sexual Utopia in Power. I don’t share their political views but their analysis are sharp, quite realistic and thought-provoking.

http://roissy.wordpress.com/
http://www.scribd.com/doc/23724929/Sexual-Utopia-in-Power-Devlin

Your pain will quickly dissipate. I hope you’ll just retain the cold nugget of wisdom that can be extracted from this depressing story.

A 32 yo male.

Rosa

Speaking of pick-up-artists, there was actually a show on VH1 called “The Pick-Up-Artist”.

It was a reality show based on the concept of transforming socially challenged men into “players”.

And the “aficianado” pick-up-artist who taught the nerdy guys how to become players was a guy named “Mystery”.
I am LMAO right now. 🙂
If you have never seen the show, it’s worth watching for a little comedy relief, if nothing else.
The bullshit tactics that were being taught on this show….all in the name of “getting a woman” were priceless.

It was one of the creepiest (and funniest) reality shows I’ve seen so far.
Like I’ve said, pop culture (in the U.S.) is in the toilet right now.

http://www.vh1.com/shows/the_pickup_artist/season_1/series.jhtml

Rosa

After all, doesn’t every girl want a man like “Mystery”. 🙂

Isn’t he the sexiest thing you have ever seen? 🙂 🙂

I can find one of these in my local club on any given Saturday night…..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_(pickup_artist)

Ox Drover

Rosie, Thanks for your comments, they are right on. I couldn’t see the video feed (slow connections) but your comments about this sort of thing is RIGHT ON! And the MEDIA feeds on it.

Lara got “hoodwinked” and “beguiled” all right, but I don’t think that makes Nicolad’s comment of “ANY 21 year old could have seen from the start!” necessarily true. IN fact, Nic, I think it is somewhat demeaning and devaluing to Lara.

She made a risky decision, expecting better results than she got, but I think EVERY ONE OF US HERE has done the same thing, took a risk on trusting someone and had a poor outcome. At least hers didn’t take her a life time to figure out and she will definitely have learned a great lesson at the cost of a broken expectation, and a plane ticket.

I knew a guy years ago who woulde walk up and down the street and approach women and say “Do yoiu want to Fark?” to strangers, and it amazed me how many women took him up on this. He laughed about it, thought it was a RIOT and that these women were pitiful creatures. He was just proving how pitiful THEY WERE! DUH???? It never occured to him to look in the mirror.l

verity

My story could be called ‘I met him on his forum, was used for sex but he kept me around so he could look like a good guy while he was doing just what he pleased.’

There’s a possibility the Narc I knew was one of the blokes Nicolaid mentions, rather than an actual spath (although he ticks the ’10 signs’).

He admitted when caught that he’d ‘f***ed up’ by telling me he loved me when he didn’t. Said that he ‘hadn’t ever had anyone with dad issues before’, as if that was an excuse.

He’s a very inadequate person who has learned a whole bag full of tricks that unfortunately do work on those of us who are vulnerable. There are a lot of women who get taken in by these manipulations because of previous abuse. Once the trauma-bonding starts it’s hard to make the break. The sex was terrible, I didn’t like or admire him, felt contemptuous even, but was hooked. Brain chemistry goes wrong and then it takes a huge effort to get away.

I’ve gained much more than a ‘cold nugget of wisdom’. Because of past abuse I carried on even when the red flags were wrapped around my neck, but it’s been a life-changing event for me that has made me happier than ever before. Still got a bit of work to do but I have learned at last to love and value myself and be far more discerning about the company I keep. No more abusive mummy’s boys for me. It’s taken loads of work but the rest of my life will be transformed.

one/joy_step_at_a_time

Nicolaid – do you think it is possible for you to share your incisive wisdom without being toxic towards women?

You often have interesting and pointed arguments, but then also add degrading sentiments.

You have little credibility when you do that.

The purpose of this blog is to support one another. I see nothing supportive in your post.

lara100

Hi this is Lara the author of the article, thank you so much for ALL your comments and advice. It is amazing what a wonderful and useful resource the internet is.

Just the other day, Y called me after 2 months of not talking after Paris. I had made a lot of progress with healing, and viewing him as a monster and a sociopath made me get over him a lot faster… He called me out of the blue because he wanted to return a piece of clothing that I had left with him in Paris and also he needed help because the girl that he had added (whom he had found me through) had apparently messaged one or two of his female friends on facebook telling them he is a ‘creep who adds Asian girls on facebook”. So he wanted to know whether I had her email address or phone number…
I took the opportunity to calmly and diplomatically tell him about my feelings to everything that occurred in Paris. I told him that i held no anger towards him as I have moved on with my life and don’t believe in holding onto grudges. I also told him that I am glad I took the bullet for many 21 year old girls out there and that he is lucky he chose me as his victim because I am strong and resilient; he could very well have ruined another girl’s life. I told him what he put me through was unfair and I wish for no one to ever go through such an experience. Because there has been 2 months of silence between us, there was no exchange of expletives nor was there animosity. It was all very calm. However, although he listened to what I had to say, he said that we were both consenting adults in the situation and that we were BOTH to blame. I told him that although I did eventually agree to take a train and meet him in Paris, that I ALWAYS told him I felt it was a bad idea and that he should just meet me in London (where I was on Spring break) for dinner, and not stay together or anything like that. I reminded him how incredibly pushy and adamant he was about our whole unrealistic whirlwind relationship and meeting in Paris. He said although he admits it was wrong of him to propose the idea of Paris, he feels that as a 21 year old girl, I cannot put all the blame on him and that I should take half of the responsibility too- what are your thoughts on this guys? He also kept saying how Paris was a ‘bad idea’ and that the moment he entered the door and saw me he realized ‘just how crazy the whole idea was’. Are these just plain excuses? I feel like I am somehow being manipulated again into thinking he is a normal person again!!!

I then proceeded to ask him whether anyone ever told him that he may be a sociopath. He had never heard that term before so I read a quick profile of a sociopath: superficial charm, manipulative, controlling, self seeking, lack of realistic plans, lack of empathy, remorse and guilt, criminal versatility. Surprisingly, he was willing to admit that he felt he possessed many of the characteristics but was quick to shoot down the fact that he had never committed a crime before and emphasized how he ‘has never touched drugs, never smoked nor does he drink coffee.’ I also told him that the fact that he is 34 and his longest relationship ever was 2 and a half years encompasses the sociopath trait of ‘not being able to commit long term’, that and being ‘selfish’. He said that his main desire in life is to “get married and have a family as there is point being successful and making lots of money if its just for himself’. I told him he was delusional to have these desires about family and money when all he cares about is control, power and HIMSELF. He did not have much of a rebuttal to this and somehow I felt like what I was saying was settling into him.. He just kept telling me he thought I was ‘mature and intelligent for a girl my age’….

Although I felt incredibly liberated and at peace after talking to him and calmly telling him everything I felt (after months of counseling, healing and reading)…the days that followed I began to think how much of a REAL HUMAN he sounded on the phone… After months of concluding he was a monster and a sociopath,he sounded like a vulnerable and confused human with emotions on the phone. In fact, it made me feel sorry for him and even want to HELP him. I became distressed and confused..I wondered: “I thought sociopaths have no emotions????”…

Now I am stuck in a rut and don’t know how to move on from here..Was he manipulating me into thinking he is normal person after all? Where do I go from here? Was he perhaps a normal guy who got infatuated way too soon and was then hit with reality later? He keeps trying to play the good guy card and say that ‘he was being practical for both of us as there was no way it would have worked out because of the age diff and the long distance’..However, I reminded him of this ALL THE TIME way before Paris but he was still so adamant and certain it would work out. I know he has issues and he probably is a sociopath. He admits he likes control and that he frequently manipulates..however the fact that he was able to admit these flaws of his made him seem more harmless and more vulnerable to me…He seemed more human to me and I feel like this is subsequently undoing the healing process!

Thoughts please!

verity

Hi Lara 🙂

I was where you are for a long time. Still don’t know whether the ‘man’ I knew was a spath, but your conversations with Y are very familiar. Manipulation, denial and deflection, it’s what some people do. Crazymaking behaviour.

It no longer matters to me whether the one I knew would be diagnosed as having a Cluster B personality disorder or not — he IS abusive and toxic and has left a trail of destruction behind him. I have known good men and the difference between them and his type is huge. I no longer care to be anywhere near anyone who would MAKE ME ASK THE QUESTION! A man shouldn’t make you wonder whether he’s pathological or not.

I’m glad you’ve been healing. Please don’t let his mind games set you back. Just let him go back into the ether. The more contact you have with men who make you ask the question, the worse you’ll feel.

one/joy_step_at_a_time

Lara – block his phone number, k?

Everything he said is just a load of crap. seriously.

I am sure others will comment and break out the behaviors he displayed (like gas lightning, mirroring, the pity ploy, etc.) so i won’t comment on them.

Do not listen to what he said – look at his actions. You don’t need that in your life.

Rosa

Lara100:

In just one phone call, he has been able to destabilize you, causing you to doubt yourself.

That’s why No Contact is so important.

I dated older men when I was your age too.
When I was 21, I thought “older” men in their 30’s knew everything. They don’t!!
It’s just the impression that they feed to young girls, and the girls fall for it.

I recommend that you go NO Contact on this guy.

From what I’m reading in your 5:49 p.m. post today, I am worried that a few more calls from this man….and you will be back in Paris with him again.
Unfortunately, the ending will probably be the same.
So, why even go there, right?

witsend

Lara100,
This is what sociopaths do with ONE phone call. They put you right back in the fog again.
You think at the time that you might be able to get some closure by speaking your mind to him. But instead he speaks a few words and has you “thinking” again.
This is why N/C is so important. 5 minutes is all it takes for a sociopath to put a “spin” on REALITY.
But your reality is your truth. Don’t let him suck you in with words.

ACTIONS speak louder than words.
His actions = reality.
His words = Lies.

Ox Drover

Dear Lara,

He showed you that he was UNFEELING, by his actions and the way he treated you. He i s LYING with his words, and trying to PLACE BLAME on you for “half the blame” of how HE ACTED.

I think it was UNwise for you to go there in the first place to meet a man you had never met in a foreign city, but if you talk to him any more it is “STOOPID” to the max! YOU KNOW what he is now, he has SHOWN you, so no contact, NO, NONE, NADA, ZIP, ZERO!!!! Unfriend him on your FB and block his calls to your phone numbers! Keep on working on YOU there is NO hope for creatures like him! ((((hugs)))) and God bless.

jeannie812

He made everything at HIS convenience. And he has to have you by him RIGHT NOW! You HAVE to come to him. You change your plans to be with him in Paris. You go against your standards because he says so.

If his GOOD stories don’t work, he turns on the pout, if that doesn’t work he turns on the temper.

He thinks stripping off your clothes in 1 minute and jumping on you (like a dog on a tree) is what you want. Cause that is what he wants, so he assumes it must be what you want.

You said the forbidden word “NO” to him. Well, that’s it — he is done. He has a slew of other prospects to use up. OUCH!!!!

Please don’t beat yourself up over this. We are average people and are NO MATCH for a sociopath. They mastered their predator skill all their life, while we were being law abiding citizens.

You are young and fortunate enough to have the technology of a computer to help you through this.

I didn’t have this as a young adult. Nor did I get the guidance growing up at home.

I ran into one spider web after the next. The predators saw me coming a mile a way.

dancingnancies

lara, he isn’t gonna admit he’s a sociopath. in fact, just listening to anything he says in my opinion is a waste of time. sociopaths ALWAYS blame the victim, and obviously in this case what he did was wrong, he freakin’ love bombed you for sex, making you believe something that wasn’t real, then casually says that it was consensual? I think not.

IveBeenUsed

Dear Lara,

I haven’t commented in a very long time. I’m mostly a lurker but I just couldn’t let this pass. You’re so very young with lots to learn so PLEASE learn the lesson your experience with this man is trying to teach you. When you went to Paris, you met the REAL person, not the one he pretends to be on the phone! THAT was the REAL man, the cold, dismissive one that left you feeling small, ugly, undesirable and used! The one that lured you to Paris for sex and then couldn’t wait to get away once the sex was over. Of course, this had nothing to do with you. He’s SICK! You would have never gone if he’d behaved this way in the beginning. That’s why I chose the word lured.

Someone said this before me but you were one of the lucky ones. I only wish my experience had been as brief as yours. Not that I’m making light of what happened to you, by any means. I’m so very sorry you were hurt by this monster. And I do have to say that by calling someone (a stranger to you) that claimed to know him wasn’t a foolproof way of determining his character. Certainly not enough to go flying off to Paris to meet him, no matter how romantic it sounded at the time. How many times have the neighbors of the serial killer, when interviewed, said “Gee, we thought he was such a nice guy! He always bought presents for our kids!” I’ll say again how very lucky you are….. think about it. Rejoice, have a party and thank your lucky stars, girl!!!!!

Now, on to my next piece of advice: Don’t speak to him ever again, please, please. And please don’t give him any information about your friends. Monsters like him really exist and we’ve ALL got up too close, got “mauled” and were left with life long scars. BLOCK him immediately! He ONLY called you because he was worried about himself, worried that someone was saying something bad about HIM! He didn’t call to really speak to you because he doesn’t care, no matter what he was prompted to say during your conversation.

He would have never discussed any of it if you had not said the things you said. A real man would have NEVER treated you that way in the first place. From what you said, he never apologized for anything, just repeated that you were to blame, too, even though you did nothing hurtful to him and he behaved like a complete A**.

Believe me, he’s spending plenty of time worrying about himself and you don’t need to waste any of your precious time and energy on him. LEARN the lesson life has taught you early on. You’ll know next time what to avoid, you’ll know the red flags and always listen to your gut. GOOD LUCK, honey and I’ll pray for you. I mean that.

learning

Dear Lara,

I was catching up this morning and have gotten as far as your recent post about being contacted by the jerk who treated you HORRIBLY in Paris. I have not read any responses to it, but I look forward to doing so, as I know there will be some great support and advice.

It is VERY VERY difficult to ACCEPT THE TRUTH about these people, because given the chance to get “in” again – they are able to do what they did ALL over again – which is confuse, twist things around, say things we WANT to believe and convince us (falsely) that they are someone they really arent. Who is he? Well if you want to be honest with yourself – HE is THE GUY HE SHOWED YOU TO BE IN PARIS, as well as right before Paris (no contact) and right after Paris (no contact).

What is he doing now? He is drawn to the fact that you never contacted him again – because most women become confused and hurt and angry he is use to them lashing out at him, explaining how they feel to him, ad giving him the opportunity to play his game some more…

Please dont become one of the many who just cant get out or ahead of the mind games. Please trust your innerself – remember what he put you through in Paris FOR NO REASON. Remember that he walked into that room and showed no signs of thinking this was crazy – but rather literally tried to have sex with you the minute he walked in. And got put off when you said – can we go have a drink instead….

Something else that took me AGES to figure out…. when we are dealing with a normal healthy guy – we know that whats best is to express how we are feeling/how we felt about something that went wrong, we know and feel comfortable telling them what was inappropriate in hopes they accept and respond to it with apologies and understanding and wanting to grow and learn and change with us — yes this is normal interaction with normal healthy partners. But what you , and I and so many of us have to get our heads around is we erroneously believe that by speaking up to these toxic men that they are listening to us (THEY ARENT – THEY WILL SIT THERE SILENTLY – BUT THEY ARENT TAKING ANY OF IT IN – THEY ARENT CARING ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY – THEY JUST KNOW YOU HAVE TO TALK AND GET IF OFF YOUR MIND AND ONCE YOURE DONE THEY CAN TWIST IT TO BE THAT YOU ARE TO BLAME OR YOU ARE TO TAKE HALF THE BLAME AND THEY TAKE VERY LITTLE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS.

It feels good to say I said this to him and I said that… and by all means its important for us to get it out of our system.. unfortunately just not to the perpetrator who will never change and only manipulate and deny.. and this is something we all really need to grasp and accept. We arent dealing with real caring giving loving souls.

Another VICTIM already notified others of HIS TRUTH. He really and truly only called you for the other girls EMAIL to SHUT HER UP and he was willing to listen to the backlash from you as well as Im sure he was curious as to how in the world you were able not to contact him and give him hell like he is use to from so many many women.

If you are wondering and questioning anything about him. You already have the answer. He showed you. Never forget… he showed you… in Paris – thats him. He is EXACTLY what you feared from the very beginning. Your inner instincts were right. Dont get clouded and jaded by his words again.

We just dont want to believe its true. In fact we struggle with accepting that there can be people not like us and so many good people weve met along the way in our lives. But we have to accept and believe what happened – thats the only way we can be strong enough to move on and not allow any more contact.

Use abuse and manipulate me once – ITS ON YOU. Use abuse and manipulate me twice – ITS ON ME.

Dont become another joy ride/game player for him. Cut him off and out of your life. There are DECENT GOOD CARING GUYS OUT THERE. He is not one of them. He is a creep with thousands of random girls on his Facebook to choose from… dont be confused … be smart.

NO CONTACT. And remember explaining anything to him is worthless. Yes he will listen, or make you feel like he is — but he will not absorb it or care about it — like we would if someone was trying to explain something to us for the benefit of a better outcome and brighter days together — they just listen until you stop talking… and then they do their conning and manipulating while we are feeling a bit better that they “listened and perhaps understood and digested it” — NO NO NO NO NO.

They dont change. They dont want to change. They like what they do and how they get others to give themselves away or how they got others to believe their lies or how they got others to give them what they want/need ( a favor, an email address, money, etc..) or how they get others to give them sex.

ALL FOR NOTHING BUT FOR THE THRILL OF THE WIN OF RAPING ANOTHERS MIND, BODY AND SOUL…. That is the general make-up of a toxic loser – and he is one. Clearly.

behind_blue_eyes

Lara;

I am so sorry to learn that this person contacted you.

In my own terrible experience, I found I had little recovery when I concentrated on Jamie’s words and my connection with him. When I concentrated on his actions, I almost immediately began to feel liberated.

While I am not 100% healed, at least I was able to make an emotional break so that when I meet another person, I won’t be consciously or subconsciously “comparing” the new person to somebody who probably does not exist. Such is the charm of the sociopath — they “mirror” you to get what they want. Therein, comes the deepness of connection.

Like yourself, I am glad I learned about sociopaths and found Lovefraud. Still, it took me months to accept that Jamie is a sociopath, even though he has all the traits consistent of a sociopath, save for criminal behavior. To that, I simply did not know enough about him and his younger days…

Do what I did. Forget the your empathy and forgiveness. Be stark, honest and concentrate on his actions, not his words.

“He called me out of the blue because he wanted to return a piece of clothing that I had left with him in Paris and also he needed help because the girl that he had added (whom he had found me through) had apparently messaged one or two of his female friends on Facebook telling them he is a “creep who adds Asian girls on Facebook”. So he wanted to know whether I had her email address or phone number…”

DO NOT THINK FOR ONE MINUTE HIS CALL HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOU.

The clothing was a ploy to get what he really wanted, the your friend’s email address or phone number. At that point, you should have hung up on him, called your friend and warned her.

That he tried blame shifting is not surprising. Jamie did the same to me. Remorseless sociopaths always shift blame.

In my last 1 and 1/2 years, I have been hurt and I also hurt somebody. The person I hurt is a very nice guy, honest, open, loving and without baggage. The reason the relationship could not work was due to issues of distance (I live in New York, Nicolay lives in St.Petersburg, Russia) income (he would be dependent upon me), language barriers… You get the point.

I know I hurt Nicolay very much. In all of our conversations, I never tried to shift blame to Nicolay. Jamie blame shifted to me.

I told Nicolay I was deeply sorry that I hurt his feelings and have the greatest respect for him, I never received even the slightest “I am sorry” from Jamie.

To this day, I wish there was a way things could have worked out with Nicolay. I doubt Jamie gives me much thought, except on his flights to New York where Jamie’s jealousy might eat at him, as I have two things he wants very much: Manhattan and mojo.

Regarding Nicolay, I take 100% blame for hurting his feelings. I should have known that a relationship with him would not be practical. The fact that I hurt Nicolay’s feelings weighs very heavily on me.

But *we* honestly tried and together, *we* openly discussed the possibilities and difficulties of our relationship. *We* had a dialog, not a unilateral decision by one party. There is another sign of a sociopath: they make rapid, unilateral decisions regarding a relationship. They leave your head spinning.

For over two months you were doing the correct thing and he unilaterally popped back into your life. Now you need to do the right thing for your own well-being. Block his number, unfriend him on Facebook, warn your friend and get support from here and elsewhere. Forget the “poor him…”

That logic is like feeling sorry for the crocodile who bit your arm off because he was hungry…

And don’t feel sorry about putting the crocodile to sleep…

blueskies

Lara,

The advice above is spot on.

Why do we, after every weird/hurtful/inhuman thing we knew they did, still try to paint the picture different?

I still struggle a little with this, but I am getting better: I have a ‘user’ (at the least) niece. someone I cant help, cant do anything about because I KNOW it wouldnt be like reaching out to someone ‘normal’ in need…she’d bite me…that’s sometimes normal..(here comes the not normal) and suck everything out… then move on…as if it were nothing… infact as if I had done something to her. I sometmes ‘worry’ about her, but it’s getting more intellectual (i.e she’s going to be doing this forever!.. and there’s nothing I can do…) than emotional.

The sociopath I knew this week has ‘dropped in’ on an on line profile of mine… second time in the last few months (blocking in progress)… I still go down the path of thinking a little about why…is he missing me…? hell no. a whim. possibly. A whim from a crazy baby that I will not respond to…because responding is feeding the crazy baby with my self..?and to sound paranoid (but not really, probably the most spot on) god knows what his agenda might be (seriously – god knows!) in me responding …. the sky’s the limit!

anyway… here is a good song:) I like the lines: “Never fall in love with potential, ’cause you can see with your own eyes, all the pretty faces and sorry words, can take away your pride.”

xx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4XXkz4iFUM

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