Editor’s note: Lovefraud received this e-mail from a reader whom we’ll call “Lara.”
About three months ago, I met a 34-year-old German banker from Munich online (he added me on Facebook), after being very hesitant to speak to him, I gave into his persistence and we started a whirlwind romance over the phone for two months. He asked me to meet him in Paris and I did a few weeks ago, only to be dumped the day after we had sex together. I have been asking myself for answers but it was only recently that my friend brought to my attention that Y (German banker) exhibited the key traits of a sociopath.
Y added me randomly on Facebook and we had one mutual friend (A fellow Korean Uni student at my university in New York). I messaged him asking if we had met, only for him to say that he “met another Lara in NY who looks like me.” I believed him but then later found out he also added my friend and a few other girls (some of them my friends) randomly on Facebook. I thought this was very weird behaviour as I do not understand why a grown man would add random younger girls on his Facebook all of whom he does not know.
After further investigation, I found out he was messaging a few of these girls too asking to “speak on the phone as he was curious about their voice,” which is exactly what he said to me. I found this very unnerving—a grown man messaging a plethora of younger girls on the Internet asking to “hear their voice on the phone.” I confronted him about this and he got incredibly defensive and sent me an incredibly long and eloquent email explaining why he added us on Facebook as a “social experiment.” He also called me paranoid and asked me how I could be concerned about Internet predators when I had more than a 1000 friends on my Facebook.
Talked on the phone
After saying no many times to a phone conversation, my curiosity took over me and one day I agreed to a brief conversation. I thought that if he turned out to be a creep, I would just block his number on my phone. Our phone conversation turned out to be alright—he was a decent and pleasant guy. However, he continued to call me every single day from then on, along with numerous text messaging.
Soon, he told me he had grown incredibly fond of me and was using affectionate terms like “baby.” I asked him why he was interested in me, as I am a 21-year-old university student in New York, who he has never met before. He told me I underestimated myself and that he liked me because I am “well traveled, educated and down to earth.” I just could not grasp how a 30+ year old banker from Munich with good looks would stoop so low as to find a romantic interest with much younger women on the Internet.
Intimate questions
Soon after we started talking on the phone, he started to be very inappropriate with me, asking personal and intimate questions. He knew I was very uncomfortable with this but he still persisted. He would tell me to “think of falling asleep in his arms,” “our kiss,” and then he would ask me to “fantasize having sex with him.”
I don’t know how he found the confidence to talk to me in this manner, as I never reciprocated his affection or romantic interest. I was uncomfortable, so I messaged a friend of his, which I found through his Facebook list, and asked her whether I should trust him. She responded immediately with glowing reviews about Y, saying she was good friends with him when he lived in London and that he was incredibly charming, successful, social and that a lot of women fancied him. However, despite all his inappropriate behaviour, I was so completely charmed by his looks, intelligence and wit that my judgment was practically impaired.
Fly to meet him
A few weeks after this, Y asked me when my next university break was, as he wanted to see me. I had one coming up in a month, in middle March. He insisted that I fly to Munich to see him. I told him “absolutely not.” I would never stoop so low as to fly to Munich to stay with a stranger I have never met before (as a girl I need to maintain a level of dignity and self-respect). He was very persistent and said I could stay with him and that we would drive to the mountains and the outskirts of Munich to ski. I told him I would not do that, and if he really wanted to see me, he could come to New York. He told me he could not take time off work to fly to New York and so I had to go to Munich.
Anyway, I ended up deciding to go to London to visit my friends during my university break. I told him he could come to London to see me but he was not satisfied with that as “London is not a romantic city and I would be around all my friends and not spend time with him.” He said he was willing to compromise and that we should spend a “romantic weekend in paris—just him and I.”
I was very hesitant and all my close girlfriends told me not to do it, as they felt he was trying to isolate me to a place where I do not know people or speak the language. However at this point I had already fallen for him so I agreed to it. I told him I wanted to have my separate room from him but he was completely and utterly adamant that we share a hotel room together. During this point of our phone conversations, he was already telling me that he felt like he could fall in love with me, that he had told his mother about me and that I should move to Munich next year after I graduate from Uni. I couldn’t help but believe and fall for his words.
Going to Paris
Two weeks before Paris, Y and I had started talking considerably less as his company was working on a major buy-out and I was occupied with exams. He said it was good for our relationship, as it would make us miss each other more. However, as days went by, he completely stopped texting me or calling me. Before Paris, we spoke once on the phone and it was a very brief conversation ”¦ he asked me about my week and I told him “it was very stressful along with hormonal problems due to my period.” He responded by saying, “Wow perfect timing that your period is over in time for Paris.” I was very disturbed by his comment—out of everything I told him about my stressful week, he was only concerned and delighted to know that I had just ended my period in time for Paris. I started to question what exactly he wants from me. All our phone conversations were heavily intimate where he would try dig hard to get intimate information about me, and he would force me to say things to him that I was not comfortable with.
I flew to London three Thursdays ago on a red eye and then took the Eurostar to Paris. Cut to the chase, when I first saw Y opening the hotel door for him, I thought he was incredibly good looking and tall in person. Three minutes into our meeting, he pretty much threw me on the bed and tried to undress me. I told him to stop it as I was uncomfortable and that I wanted to spend time talking to him first. He seemed visibly annoyed and agreed to go have a drink with me near the Trocodero. During our drink he was very cold, distant and aloof. He was NOT affectionate with me at all.
We went back to the hotel room and I did sleep with him and then the next day at brunch in Paris, he told me “it was over and that he could not see a future with me as I was too young for him.” I was so stunned and confused. Where did this sudden realisation come about? Months after telling me he was completely “obsessed” with me? He said that he became “rational and decided it would never work for him.”
Kicked me out
I started acting irrationally and even told him that it was unfair that he did not give us a chance and that he made me feel so vulnerable by coming all the way to Paris only to sleep with him and get dumped. He became incredibly defensive and angry and told me to go back to London that same night. I was resistant as I was so confused but he pretty much kicked me out and booked me a train ticket.
During the painful last few hours with him, he acted like a complete chauvinist—making me feel bad that he wasted his weekend coming to Paris and that he could have been so many other things in Munich. He started calling his Paris friends on his mobile phone while I was next to him asking if they would have “dinner with him that night,” and while we were walking back to the hotel, he even used his knuckles and pushed me from behind as he complained that “I was walking too slowly.” He even said I should be grateful as he has so many “women on Facebook who are interested in connecting with him.” It is almost like he forgot that HE was the one who connected with me on Facebook and pursued me RELENTLESSLY.
Y did not even send me off to the train station—he asked me to drop him off at Gallerie Lafayette (a shopping mall) because it was on the way to Gare Du Nord (the train station). During this whole time, I was still so numb and confused about the situation that I did not even act disappointed or hurt by him. I even suggested we try to stay friends.
Numb and confused
I went back to London that Saturday night completely numb, confused and shocked by the situation. I gave my heart to this stranger I met on Facebook who convinced me that he was obsessed and was falling in love with me—only to fly to Paris and be used for sex and dumped the next day.
It has been a few weeks since the situation occurred and I have become more rational and objective. My friends are all very disgusted by Y’s behaviour and have been trying to let me realise that what he did was “unkind and unacceptable” and that he was basically an “Internet predator casting a wide net for young girls on Facebook.” I still have trouble seeing it that way, as I keep remembering the person I spoke to on the phone for months. I want to believe that everything he said to me was real.
However, the anger now has set in a little and I cannot believe he did that to me. We have not spoken since. Many times I feel like talking to him as I want answers—but I know this is wrong. I recently found out that Y asked another girl out on a date (one that he also added randomly on Facebook). Initially I was enraged and jealous that he moved on so fast. However, my friends try to tell me that as a sociopath, he has basically found his “next victim.”
There’s still a part of me that believes I was not good enough for him and did not meet his standards, which is why he discarded me. I also feel that perhaps I “deceived” him on Facebook, because he felt I was not as pretty in real life as I was online. I am trying to rid myself of those thoughts that are only self-destructive. I am taking it day by day ”¦ seeing a counselor. I cannot let this situation make me crumble in despair for it will be letting him win. I need to become stronger from this and move on with my life knowing that I learnt an invaluable lesson.
Dear Blue_eyes,
Yep, we do need to learn, but I WILL BET A DOLLAR TO A HOLE IN A DOUNUT THAT YOU WILL HEAR FROM HIM AGAIN. LOL
Dear Blue-eyes,
I bet my bottom dollar Oxy is right!!! And I hope you never respond to him and further that you simply delete him before giving the chance to waltz in and out of your life yet another time. You have the 3 strikes rule, but you havent deleted him as a friend? Remember to act upon the boundaries you have set for yourself and how others can treat you.
As I am learning and continue to learn I wanted to share with you that some of the choices you were making with him were possibly setting you up to become a shoe-in victim.
Based upon the fact that you exchanged numbers and HE disappeared, really suggests that no attempts be made by you to pursue anything further with him. By chance you bump into him with ANOTHER guy, and he basically pleads with you to “save him” from the guy (wonder how many times he does that when he is out)… anyway you shared that it was YOU who said “Ill call you tomorrow” — probably best not to go there with a guy who has already disappeared once.. but you gave him benefit of doubt, as we all do at times.
Reading “posts” can NEVER ever tell us the truth about a personality. A serious together kind of guy who has your number but only chooses to FB you on and off is a red flag…
When he mentions coming to NYC… you automatically offer him a room at your place. I think it was setting you up for becoming a potential victim… let him get a hotel, he didnt even ask for a place to stay, you offered it to him – that could have really been used against you.
Im glad you addressed the sexual aspect of rooming together and you were upfront and honest about your lifestyle and general likes/dislikes about clubs, etc.
He did not respond. THANK GOODNESS . Because I was getting concerned that he may have taken you up on your offer and taken advantage of your good kind decent self. Remember LET OTHERS EARN YOUR TRUST…. perhaps if he had visited and stayed at a hotel and you got to know him over the course of several days and grew closer via phone and in person – eventually you could offer him to stay one time down the road….
UNFRIEND HIM. Dont let yourself get tempted or hung up on why he disappeared… red flags are before us for reasons — warnings– you are learning in terms of not attempting to contact him again — but to be able to say you have learned you will have unfriended him.
In my book 3 strikes is WAY to many. One and done!!! And I share all of my thoughts with you because you share that you really are a very friendly giving caring person… let others really EARN that part of you. Dont give it away!
Glad you are learning…thats the first step 🙂
Dear Learning,
GREAT ADVICE and great rationale to back it up! I agree with Learning, Blue, I think her take on the “save me from him” ploy was just that, an attention grabbing PLOY!!!! hee hee
You know the old saying “two heads are better than one” well in the LF case a BUNCH of heads are better than one!~!!!! LF ROCKS and so do you Learning!
Yeah, Blue-eyes, I think the whole,”save me from him,” gig is pretty reprhensible, because remember if he’ll do it with you, he’ll do it to you. Next time it’ll be you, having a wonderfull time, being told how wonderfull you are, beginning to let your guard down, and falling in love with this wonderfull, charming man, and he’ll be mouthing these words over your shoulder to the good-looking young guy in the back of the room.
To me it shows a lack of integrety, dishonesty, and bad charactor. He’s totally degrading the guy he’s with, and thinks he’s making points with you. YUCK, YUCK. DID I SAY YUCK?
Lara-your story is sad to me but I’m glad you put it out here. Please read all the posts here because being here will really help you deal. It has helped and it still helping me. I am really starting to wonder if there are way more spaths out there than we think. Now since I’ve educated myself I see through everyone and don’t trust anyone either. No trust will be given based on someone’s words-only their actions. People have to earn my trust now and I am quick to throw out anyone who is toxic in my life. I am careful with facebook. I recently had a guy from work who is classic spath ask to be my friend on fb and I am not going to allow that. I spend WAY too much time with people at work and they are not going to be a part of my facebook. I keep my home life and work life totally separate. I have learned so much about me and the importance of being good to myself and respecting myself and only associating with people who treat me the way I deserve to be treated. Everyone here will be of great help to you. ((hugs))
To all;
Thanks again for the support. I think many of us are at risk for sociopathic manipulation due to our own honesty and idealism. This often makes it hard for us to see the reality of the predator’s game.
While I don’t know enough of Luc to label him a sociopath, his actions are toxic and selfish, enough reason to stay away. Despite all his Facebook postings regarding respect and romance, he is merely after sex.
I see an pattern too that I did not understand but now I do. Luc, talks about respect but showed me little, both in the bar and afterwards. It was just days before my operation (and he knows of this) that he “charmed” me into agreeing to his NYC visit. You would think that a “respectful” person would show some concern in this area.
Of the multiple conundrums displayed by Jamie, the one that baffled me most was that he views himself as an “honorable” person who is only interested in a monogamous relationship. Yet, he is not trustful and wants “forgiveness” should he stray. See, there is much you can learn about somebody when they answer nearly 1000 questions about themselves.
None of this made sense to me until I realized it is all about control.
Luc is not respectful. He wants to be “respected” because it is a symbol of control; if you “respect” me, you do what I want, while at the same time I do whatever I feel like doing.
Jamie does not want a monogamous relationship. He wants others to be monogamous to him, Being a flight attendant, he can come up with 1000 excuses to maintain his honour. “I was dunk. I was 3000 miles from home on a flight and lonely. My gay crew mate came on to me…”
Let me pose one question? Do most of these predators stayed fixated on one target until they loose interest, or are they able to simultaneously manipulate multiple individuals?
Jamie and Luc seem to be “in the moment” fixated. However, 10 years ago I was involved with another sociopath, a guy named Paul who was playing multiple people simultaneously. Me, a women and a third guy…
PS; I am fully expecting Luc to contact me at some point. Jamie, doubtful as he has a pattern of cutting people out of his life. I am presuming that Jamie knows I stumbled upon his online profile, since the website settings are such that it allows users to track visitors to his page.
If so, then Jamie knows I figured everything out and he would be angry that his cover is blown. Since has a pattern of shifting blame, I am a “cyberstalker” to be shunned.
Blue Eyes:
“Do most of these predators stay fixated on one target until they loose interest, or are they able to simultaneously manipulate multiple individuals?”
From what I have seen, they are definitely manipulating multiple people simultaneously.
Isn’t pathological lying part of their essence? I would say yes.
Just because they may not be manipulating multiple people romantically, does not mean they are not manipulating others.
They could be manipulating others professionally, taking advantage of someone else’s social connections, or playing on elderly people’s sympathies for $$, etc.
Manipulation is not just for sex.
Psychopaths like to break people off from their friends and families, and create rivalries/jealousies in people.
I believe part of the reason for this is because it keeps everyone distracted from what the psychopath is doing, and it also prevents people from getting together and “comparing notes” on the psychopath.
Because, once people start networking and talking to each other….that’s when the lies are exposed….and everything starts to unravel from there.
You say that Jamie & Luc were “in the moment” fixated.
But, is it possible even Jamie & Luc were manipulating other people simultaneously?
Is it possible that Jamie & Luc were very good at making you “feel” like you were the only one, when in fact, you probably were not?
That’s another trick psychopaths are very good at, especially during the seduction phase, is making you feel SO SPECIAL….like you are the only one.
But, in actuality, it’s hardly ever the case.
Be careful of that trick.
~When sociopaths are in control, they rarely leave a relationship without having another already lined up.
How do you think they accomplish this if they are not manipulating multiple people simultaneously?
thanks Oxy and Buttons
I have to work everyday on validating my self….that’s why I post on lovefraud with my struggles and hopefully to arrive at a better attitude so I can have another relationship! (not happening any way fast)
Oxy you say:
I realize that my X-BF-the-P is totally undesirable, not me! He has nothing but lies and more lies to offer anyone! So what is so desirable about that?
Oh yeah…I totally agree, re affirming my new attitude, we are desireable because spaths do not go for dead people…they want the loving energy to feed off..I was the big juicy orange he squeezed every drop out of before he dropped me in the bin….takes a while to re juice.
Buttons you ask a great question:
What does “desirable” mean, anyway? Is it the spath’s definition of a porn actress, or the inner qualities that surpass the physical?
IT’S THE INNER QUALITIES THAT SURPASS THE PHYSICAL- YAAAAYY!
{{{Bulletproof}}} That’s the girl! Some of the most radiant human beings I know would not fit into our societal definition of “beautiful.” Nevertheless, when I am in the presence of these people, I am envigorated, enlightened, and feel a sense of 100% agape. They ARE beauty and they ARE so very, very valuable.
Rosa;
You are right about both of them. Luc’s suave French act is merely his mask to get what he wants. Of course I always seem to forget that Jamie was active on a dating website…
I guess in the case of Jamie, my ego prevented me from accepting the possibility that he “found” somebody else, as I thought might be the case from one of his last emails.
Here is a hint to all. When somebody associates a name with a person — I went out with my friend “Catherine” for lunch, that is a friendship thing. When somebody does not, that is sexual.
Thus, when told something like “On Saturday, I went out with my friend Catherine for lunch and then had a late night playing guitar hero with a friend…” read that to mean the “friend” is more than just a “friend.”
Lies of omission are used by all sociopaths.