By | January 19, 2011 69 Comments

LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: The dangers of friendship with a female predator

Editor’s note: Lovefraud received the following from the reader who posts as “Kerisee04.”

How does a person know if they have engaged in a friendship with a female sociopath? So often it is the romantic relationships that are discussed, and usually about male sociopaths.

First of all, it’s important to note that if you are a male, to the female sociopath, you either a sexual target or a source of financial gain. In my experience with the female sociopath, in her mind, there is no man beyond her reach. She has sexual fantasies about all men she encounters and runs scenarios in her head to accomplish her goal. In my naive state of mind, I had no idea this particular female sociopath was after my husband.

There really is no “friendship” with a sociopath. While the female target may feel a sense of obligation and social grace toward the female sociopath, the sociopath feigns sincerity. Some of the signals I missed were:

1. Back-handed compliments. “You dress frumpy. You need to find clothes that fit you better.” Or, “I know you don’t give your husband everything he needs.” Or, “Do you know how hot your husband is?”

2. Immediate soul-mate connection with my husband. “He and I are so alike.” Or, “It’s like we’re brother and sister. I understand him.”

3. Fake displays of emotion, similar to histrionics. She would fly off the handle over any changes that were made to plans, she would manipulate everybody to feel sorry for her and eventually give in to her out of pity.

4. Lack of boundaries. She would come over every day and stay until I literally kicked her out at 2 a.m. After I had surgery, I managed to stay up until 1 a.m. with her and my husband until I passed out from exhaustion. I found out the next day that she stayed until 5 a.m., alone with my husband in my living room.

5. Lack of shame. She would pull me into sexual discussions of fantasies, comparing sizes of anatomy, and playing games of truth or dare. These are things I would never under normal circumstances allow myself to take part in. No subject or dare was off-limits to her, and I was given the impression that she was my best friend and would keep all my secrets. Only later did I find out that she took mental note of everything I said to use against me when her lies finally came out.

6. Her attempts to be alone with my husband under the guise of platonic friendship. “He’s coming over to hang pictures for me.” And, “We met for lunch since we were both in the same area.”

There are so many flags I missed. Or maybe I didn’t miss them; I just ignored them. The most embarrassing of all is my nonchalant attitude when her affair with my husband came out. My husband (now ex-husband) had fallen victim to her seduction. Granted, things were not great in our marriage to begin with, but we had managed to be faithful to each other for seven years until she entered our world. My husband had a guilty conscience and finally came forward with their affair.

When the female sociopath found out about this, she immediately resorted to histrionics.  “I can’t believe he would do something like this to me. I finally trust someone, and they stab me in the back.” And, “It was an accident. We just went a little too far during the truth or dare game. Now you’re going to hate me and I’m going to lose my best friend!” She was flipping out and crying.

I had no time to think about the implications. I was thinking about the ways in which I could have unknowingly facilitated the affair. That’s exactly what she wanted. When I finally pulled away and talked with my spiritual elders, I told them I was worried about her. She was so messed up mentally over this that I feared she might hurt herself. After all, I was her friend ”¦ Then one of the elders told me something that finally turned on the light in my head: “Anybody that would do something like that to their friend is NOT a true friend.”

It took me a few hours to let that sink in and realize the magnitude of my situation. In the coming days and months, the story came out in bits and pieces. Some from my husband, who was trying desperately to hold on to me, and some from the female sociopath, who was trying to downplay the affair until she was backed into the corner with the truth.

When all her numerous affairs (we stopped counting at 30) came out, her husband slowly began to realize the predatory trap that she held him in. She had cheated on him throughout their entire marriage, sometimes dropping their two kids off at daycare for a “mom’s day off” and driving to another town for a quickie with one of her men.

When she talked with our mutual friends and elders about the situation, she was sure to exploit every secret I had confided to her and she would twist the truth to seem as though I coerced her and my husband into doing what they did so that I could divorce him. It all seemed so sincere. Except, there wasn’t a shred of truth to it. In fact, she was using projection. Her goal was to get me to say and do self-incriminating things so that she would have ammunition against me when everything hit the fan.

It was truly a time of awakening for me. There truly isn’t good in all people. Just most people.

Though healthy individuals like to believe that change is possible, I have come to the realization that when a person is animalistic in nature, contains no actual emotions or feelings, and looks for manipulation in everybody she meets, there is no possibility of healthy change. This female sociopath’s parents have held on to the hope for the past four years that she would change. They have even at times helped her out financially, only to be confronted with more of her lies.

There is much more to the story. This, in fact, is only a chapter—the first chapter of my entanglement with this particular female sociopath. But I feel it’s important for people to understand the complexities of so-called friendship with a predatory female. It’s important to recognize the signs and for your own good, to never give them what they want.

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I totally understand where you’re coming from. I learned a new term to describe the predatory female that I was friends with, “malignant narcissist”. When I first saw those two words used together like that it really clicked for me.

Like you, my story is very long & twisted. My ex friend was also the exgirlfriend of my exboyfriend(the sociopath). We bonded over everything the two of us went thru with our ex. Sounds nice & cozy & comforting knowing you have someone who knows exactly the way you feel, kind of like being on here. Right?! We would talk literally for hours on the subject of our ex, who also happens to be the father of our 2 daughters ( mine is 16 months old, her’s 10 years old). We always would talk about how worried we were for our daughters’ futures. Mind you this all took place before I found LF.

I knew she had multiple affairs when she was with my (our) ex. She cheated with her best friend’s fiance, her best friend having no clue as they were apparantly so close. Of course now they don’t talk, they even moved to another town to get away from her. BTW – they are now married. But anyway, like you mentioned above, a total disregard for her best friend’s feelings. Just feelings of entitlement for herself, and feeling she could have whatever she wanted because in her head “she is God’s gift to men”. Also too, a total disregard for feeling sorry for what happened. She didn’t care…she was only sorry she couldn’t keep the charade going on for her own benefit. Their affair kind of blew everything out of the water. That and the fact she was sleeping with her exboyfriend, who would make visits to their house when my ex was at work. Do you know how he found out? When he came home from work one day their daughter said “Dad, Uncle (name of the exboyfriend goes here) was over today.” Of course he knew exactly what was going on and was the cause of their break up.

The only reason she stayed with our ex was because of the money. She thought in her head he would always stay with her and give her whatever she wants no matter what because he loves her sooo much. She would spit on him, she broke his arm with a bat, she was never affectionate with him. She used their daughter as a scapegoat – she slept with her mom in her king size bed every single night her parents were together. Why? Because she didn’t want him sleeping in the same bed as her. Guess where he slept…on the couch. Coincidently…guess where their daughter started sleeping after they broke up…in her bed, in her own room. It almost sounds like I’m defending him. I’m not. The funny thing is…when I started dating my ex…he would tell me (jokingly) that he was in an abusive relationship(referring to the above mentioned narcissist). And he would tell me how I was an angel, and he loved that our relationship was so loving and drama free. Can you believe it?!?!

Back to the narcissist…when I became pregnant (by accident) that’s when all the trouble started with my ex. His true colors came out! He knew I was mentally removed from our relationship because I was ready to break up with him, but then I found out I was preggars. Because he knew this…behind my back he was trying to get back with his ex (the narcissist). All this time he should have been bending over backwards to make me happy, emotionally support me, be there for me, try to make the situation better for us. Of course on the surface he was doing that…even though I knew something was not right with the picture. And there he is telling his whore exgirlfriend how much he loved her, how much he missed her & their daughter, hom much he missed their life together. Of course you know SHE ATE THIS RIGHT UP. Finally vindication for her. She was already dating someone else at this time, and I honestly don’t think she would have done anything with our ex because she was never really attracted to him…he is cute…but to her he was only a cash machine. It just made her feel good. She was back on top. And of course our ex knew how to pull her strings…told her everything he knew she wanted to hear so she would be on “his side”.

To get to the heart of the story…she felt that both she and her daughter(who btw is the sweetest, loving, caring girl I ever met. Weird because her mother is a narcissist and her father a sociopath. Totally defies the odds on that one. And she truely loves her baby sister, my daughter sooo much) were always going to be number one in his life. The thought of a new baby taking away attention from her daughter totally sent her over the edge. How dare her ex go out and get some girl pregnant and take the spotlight off their daughter!!! That’s exactly the way she felt.

I didn’t become close to this woman until after I broke up with my ex. We met and talked when I was still with my ex, and she he was always nice to me, but it wasn’t until he was out of the picture we bacame close. Of course she feigned being sorry and understanding what I was going thru. I was very apprehensive with her because i knew her history from everything my ex and his sister told me about her. But she was being so nice and friendly. I thought “oh well”. It did feel good to have someone that knew how I felt. At this time too I had no clue my ex had this disorder. I was blaming everything on his drug abuse, which by this time was worse than ever before.

His ex (the narcissist) totally believed everything our ex told her. She thought his heart belonged to her forever, bear in mind the mother(me!) of his infant daughter was a single mom struggling thru all of this. She would tell me that he told her his heart belonged to her. How selfish can you be?! And she always led me to believe that they had this magical relationship. Never mentioned how she broke his arm, talked down to him, slept around on him, stole $30,000 of his money, the list goes on. Nope…never told me a word of this because she wanted me to think that essentially she was better than me. In her inflated head she never thought our ex or his sister would have told me all of this. No…I was just this nice, sweet girl who she knew she could manipulate. When I did call her out on this I told her I was always under the impression they were so miserable together. When I said that she said, “well…I was no angel” but never explained herself.

Sooo..the only reason we became so close was because how much her daughter loved her new baby sister(my daughter). I was even apprehensive about this because I honestly didn’t want my daughter anywhere near her father, but I thought if he knew he had this support it would make him want to get help for his drug abuse. But fast forward I know he is hopeless when it comes to his drug abuse, and of course i now know about his disorder as well. Do you know she knew he had this disorder when she was with him. A therapist told her. And she still continued to stay with him. I should say “use him”. So that shows you what kind of a woman she really is.

A couple months ago I told her I couldn’t let my daughter grow up with her daughter as sisters. Sad for her daughter…I really do love her. But if her mom really loved her as much as she claims she does she would have done everything possible to make sure she would be close to her baby sister. Not play games with me and let me think I was “second best” in our ex’s life. She truly is a sick woman. A malignant narcissist!!!

Like you said…it was a true awakening for me as well. Not all people are good…even though they come off this way. But the good part for us is we become stronger & wiser from our experiences! Her bad is making me an even better person.

It’s nice to know I’m not the only one affected by one of these people. And thanks for reading this long story. There’s still so much …you have no idea…but I gave you the “short” version!!

super chic

Kerisee04, thank you so much for writing this very interesting article. I appreciate the examples you wrote about, I’m so busy looking for these traits in a potential mate that I forget about looking at them in a friend. I don’t know how your “friend” found so much time to do all this! I was suprised to read that she is married and has kids, she must be one busy spath. I believe you are right that there is no possibility for any kind of change in these “people”, I prefer to call them pods (term originated by lostingrief) because they are not human as far as I’m concerned, the word you chose… “animalistic” pretty much sums it up.


Thanks Kerisee for showing us the tactics used by female predators. I have had several in my life and it’s true, they act like they are your best friend. For whatever reason, spaths, both male and female, have the ability to get under your skin more quickly than a normal person. You bond with them easier.
My crazy husband stealing neighbor was this way. I felt like she was such a nice woman. She portrays herself as harmless and an animal lover that feeds all the deer and squirrels and birds and takes in lots of stray cats. Then she told me she only dates married men. At the time, I tried to be open minded – and my brain had already fallen out anyway – so I said, “you can have my piece of shit husband, if you want” and laughed. Little did I know that she already did!! LOL! It must’ve caused her a narcissistic injury to know that that what she thought was stealing, was actually just taking out the trash!!! LOL!
Ahhhh! feels good to remember the fun parts of “when all the evil happened”.
In truth this woman was hideously ugly and a spath. She didn’t want to love a man, but didn’t want anyone else to have a husband either. She was filled with envy at anything anyone else has. This was apparent to my spath, who can smell emotions from a mile away. He is like a bloodhound for emotions and specializes in envy and shame emotions – as they all do. He smelled envy in her and decided to use her envious nature to pit her against me. He found several women spaths and a male one to pit against me. It would’ve been great to know the actual words he used.
I’m sure that he slandered me but somehow he also used my own good qualities against me by targeting their envy.
I had very long thick hair for a while and when he thought I was considering cutting it, he was adamantly set against it. Now I know why, he used it as part of seeding envy in others.
The only other thing that I know he told people is that I think I’m a saint and a do-gooder. I have never considered myself that way, but I can see how I must seem that way to him (aka SATAN).
That’s the interesting thing about studying spaths, you can get to the heart of certain emotions much more quickly by studying what spaths notice. Their higher emotions are shallow, but the primal ones run deep. They see everything as symbolic (they know the words but they can’t hear the music) of either envy or shame. It’s the only two buckets they have.


A female sociopath is incredibly deadly. I was married to one
One i would consider to be a socially adapt psychopath.
on top of it she was good looking extremely potent combination !!

She had army of powerful and influential ppl vouching her
how she was doing it ?
She carefully observed what kind of a person you are , what makes you happy, what is that you are embarrassed about how to gain you respect.
For eg if you are not a religious person but you respect religion she will appear to you as religious and pious
at the same time making you feel uncomfortable discussing details which you don’t know. IE
She will present herself to be an expert in the field in which you are not comfortable ,

There onwards the game starts . you will be showered with regular gifts(but not expensive), parties, you are special she will cook for you
in between she will tell you sob stories how tough life has been for her , in every story she is the victim , and then she will ask for something … Life is so hard but i still want to be happy would you be able to do this for me ?
your answer : of course dear
return on the investment 🙂
I was amazed by the kind of person details she knew about her boss . As long as she gets what she wants everything will be just fine the moment you start to say no there is problem , she will turn from sweet to not being so nice. if you still don’t give in you become the bad guy in her story and before you realize the magnitude of the problem its too late
She was doing the same with YOUR boss as well…. !!! cheers

The is just one dimension of her behavior in public
private behavior is much worse .

Pure Evil will always come in an attractive package.

When a decent person makes an indecent request it should immediately ring alarm bells. Any contact which such a person is extremely detrimental for your professional and personal well being.



After you’ve been involved with a sociopath, you feel like you’ve been put through a blender. Once you’re apart from them, you do regain your equilibrium, but you must keep them at a distance. Sociopaths don’t know the meaning of friendship – how to even be one. I’ve thought this about my h-spath – he lies to everyone, using his “friends”, involving them (unknowingly on their end) in some of his b.s. stories, each “friend” catching on that he’s toxic and dropping him. It doesn’t even register in his brain why he doesn’t have as many “friends” as he once did – gee, probably because you’ve stabbed people in the back and they’re sick of it. It’s actually quite sad that these individuals are plagued with this disorder – it controls them, not the other way around.


My experience with a female spath was awful. I’m still reeling from it nine months later. I met her at work and we had a friendship. The apt. above us became available and she moved into it. The hell started within three months. Looking back I see she first tried to drive a wedge between me & my husband. When that didn’t work she drove a wedge between our landlord and us. The landlord was a total pushover for her. She demanded things and witheld the rent till she got what she wanted.

She was (unkown to me) sneaking into our apt. thru the basement door. She took about three thousand dollars over a span of about six months. One of her tricks was to call the landlord all upset, then when he showed up she would get in her car and leave. Leave us with the landlord. Well, one time she called to say her locks were “jimmied” (who talks like that??). She demanded the landlord call the police on us. He told her to call the police herself because it was her apt. She would not. That got me wondering why she would not call the police herself. Lets see…she claimed she gave a massage to a guy in her apt. and then he wouldn’t leave and she had to go to work so she got in the shower. I told her she was NUTS…well she claimed he took all her rent money…what was she going to do??? She wanted us to give her the money for her rent and we did not do it. Now her locks are jimmmied and she still won’t call the police? I noticed by then she’d been robbing us slowly but surely taking a little at time milking it. So, back to the landlord and jimmied locks. The landlord showed up to change her locks and as usual she got in her car and left. I waited for her to come back and I called the police.

Yikes! The detective that came ran her plate number–what a looong history of larceny she had. I told him we were missing money and since it was cash I thought we had no recourse. He said we should have called right away. The landlord told the cops there was nothing wrong with her locks he just changed them so she’d shut up. Well, once she knew we found her out…BIG criminal record…the war was definelty on. She was a effing nightmare. We eventually got a lawyer to break the lease and moved. She got evicted.

One of the things I did notice about her was that she HATED other woman. Her name for women was the “c” word. When I first met her I thought this was a woman going thru a hard time in her life. I had NO idea this was how she lived ALL the time! I’ve been reading this site for a while and she does not fit the physical description of most of the woman that have been illustrated on here. She was short and heavy and her personallity was aggressive and mean. She had a few boyfriends but they never lasted cause she’d pick fights with them and argue and they just wouldn’t come back. She thought she was superior in intelligence to most if not all people, yet she used the wrong words in a sentence a lot. She went to nursing school 20 years ago and never graduated, and never paid a dime of her student loans. I remember her getting calls still to give them money and she outright told them they would never get dime from her cause it was their fault she never graduated..ugh. I see a lot of traits that she had were like a lot of the men that are written about here. I don’t believe she was lesbian or bisexual. Very confusing.

I’m dealing with the aftermath of this person. I could tell ya stories that would curl your hair! My trust in people is gone, I hope not for good, but I’ll never see the human race again like I did before I met her. She loved to hear of other peoples suffering and emotional pain. Once when my friend of 25 years son passed away, she called and I told her I couldn’t talk-upset about friends son, she said”You wouldn’t believe the day I had at work today, that effing “c” blah, blah, blah” I just looked at the phone I couln’t believe it…On and on with stories like that. When I tried to get untangled from her the story just gets worse and worse. In the end she got evicted…but walked away after causing us and the landlord thousands of dollars and not to mention the emotional pain I’m still in. I want to go to therapy but I don’t trust anyone I don’t know! Including therapists, co-workers, men, woman, children!

Thanks for letting me get some of the story out. It’s all jumbled cause I’m all jumbled. I appreciate the people that post and give good insight about these “people” I read the posts here pretty much everyday, so thanks.



I hear you! There are more good, decent people in the world than sociopaths (in my opinon). We’ve had a hands-on education in human nature, that there are definitely some people to avoid in life (and for good reason) – they’re trouble-makers with a capital T. Put your education to good use, causing it to make it a better you, more “street smart.” That’s how I’m viewing it now.

kim frederick

Sounds like a night-mare, Ana. I’m glad you’re here. There are a lot of good articles in the archives, including several on the female type of psychopathy. It helps to learn as much as you can. I hope you’ll stick around and share more of your experience with us.
I just wanted to extent my cyber hand, and welcome you to LF.


Thank you for your replies Bluejay & Kim. Yes, I will keep on reading. That new article about the female sociopath made my skin crawl! Her whole thinking process and how she views people…scary.


Hi Ana,

Welcome to LF. When I first joined this website someone said “welcome to the worst club with the best people”. So True!!! I extend the same welcome to you!! It really is a safe place to come to…whether you just read the stories and articles and/or post your own comments…it really is a safe haven. I wish you the best of luck in regaining your life & sanity back!!

I, like you, would feel like my head was spinning with everything that was going on in my life. There’s an article on here about when you have a sociopath in your life it feels like your head is in the spin cycle of the washing machine. I think everyone on here can associate with that feeling. Again…good luck!!!

I read that article about the female sociopath as well. Scary indeed…at least she was brave enough to give us “innocent” people what their thought process is like. I can’t imagine living like that. It’s funny because I always wanted to know what was going on in my exboyfriend’s (the sociopath) head. I couldn’t understand how he could inflict all this pain & devastion on me. It wasn’t until I found LF that I got a very clear idea of what his thought process was like. LF answered all of my questions about him!

I was wondering if anyone heard about Jesse James – the exhusband of Sandra Bullock – getting engaged. He just got divorced in March from Sandra, due to his infidelity! He met Kat von di (I don’t know if I have her name spelled correctly) this past summer and started dating her. They just announced their engagement yesterday, and Jesse was saying how 2010 was the best year of his life, mind you he divorced Sandra in 2010 because of his cheating!!! That seems wrong on so many levels!!! He was also saying how his new fiance is the most caring & loving person he has ever met, and he is so lucky to have someone like her in his life!!! Is it me or does Jesse James seem like a true sociopath?!?! And does it seem like Kat von di is totally being lovebombed as well?!?!

Ox Drover

Ah, yes, the sociopathic “friend”—-had a couple of those, one in particular! It is no “worse” or “better” or “easier” or “harder” than breaking up with anyone that you love and trust and are betrayed by!

FRIENDS do not mistreat you, Friends do NOT BETRAY YOU, and friends do not steal from you. Friends do not talk to you like a “yard dog” that has just torn up their trash, and you know, I am finding it easier and easier to disengage from this kind of “friend” all the time and the first sign of malicious behavior and/or attitude is all it takes now, no “second” chances over and over. Screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on ME.

I agree that Jesse sounds like a psychopath, or at least very high in the traits!


Aerin, thanks for the comments.
I’m starting to worry because I can’t find my orig. birth certificate. I know I just moved, but I checked and it’s not with all the other papers it should be with.

She actually did to me what she said her last landlord did to her: go into our apt. and go thru all my personal papers/and steal money. I kills me to know she read all my twins personal stuff (she is deceased) from her lawyer regarding her estate etc. Now I can’t find my birth cert. and I’m wondering if she stole it. She stole money, but she also stole “things” like my hydroculator! She also has problems with getting electricity because she did not pay a 3,000.00 bill and they shut her off years ago until she pays. Who lets the bill get that high?? It could be a lie cause she is the one who told me ugh.

I’m going to keep looking for it.



What you went through is horrible. I have only two concerns about the events you relate.

First, you are going very easy on your ex-husband. Yes, it was good of him to confess and shows some degree of conscience, but he made a commitment before God, a commitment he consciously violated.

Second, from the way you relate the story, this person is still a part of your life. You need to severe that. If you have mutual aquaintances, either severe them too or if she comes up ask not to hear about her. From the way it sound like you are trying to prove to yourself that you are the bigger person looking out for the mental state of this person.

You are the bigger person, you don’t need to prove it. Now get out while the getting is good.

If you are maintaining a connection in the hopes of some kind of closure, your independence is your closure. Her absence from your life is your closure. Seeking closure from some interaction with her only feeds her power and reduces yours.

Get her out of your life and get on with yours.

Good luck and God Bless.


Hi folks,
it’s been a long time since I’ve actually written here, though I do pay attention to your postings, and sometimes, like today, it seems your topics come at just the right time.

It does seem like people who attract predators are capable of attracting more than one type of predator. I recently met a woman who is making me very nervous, and this article speaks to many of the reasons why she makes me nervous. Quite frankly, I have no husband or mate for her to steal, but I currently have a new apartment and peace of mind (which I worked hard for, after my experience with my pschopathic ex-boyfriend.)

(We made contact because we had both registered for a seminar about 1 hours drive from where we live, and the organizers gave her my name as someone who she could ride with. Yes, I drove.) Well, the first time she came to my house, which was also the first time I’d ever met her, she settled right in and made herself right at home. We had a nice time — and I realized after the day was over that she was making some of the same types of overtures my ex- did on the first few dates (asking MANY personal questions, withholding her own information, agreeing with nearly everything I said, saying at the end of the day that we were meant to be friends.) At the end of the day, too, she asked if she could sometimes stay at my place on nights when the weather is bad (she lives about 1/2 hour away, in the “snow belt” near me. I said “sure,” but then afterwards, I started wondering if this was a good idea. She wrote to me three times within a day of meeting her, offering all kinds of help and advice, and saying we must stay in touch.

Am I wrong to be worried? I’m not sure what else I might offer to her, but I really am concerned about letting her into my life too quickly. . .

meanwhile, the e-mails keep coming! I haven’t answered for a couple days. . . .

thanks for all your help, and as always, thanks for this fabulous forum. (I am a member on FB, too!)


So sorry to read the story that brought you here.

I don’t want to unduly alarm you, but you NEED to report this (the birth certificate theft) to the police, ASAP. Secondly, contact every credit reporting agency in your jurisdiction (I don’t know where you live), and any other organization you can think of where she might be inclined to use your ID (e.g your bank, credit card agencies) and give them the number of the police report (or perhaps even a copy – I’d ask the police what’s appropriate here). Also, *very important*, ask those credit organizations to contact you whenever a credit check on you is requested (I believe that all credit reporting agencies internationally are required to provide this ‘service’). I would do this even if you eventually find your BC. She may have taken a copy of it, or taken it and used it somewhere and then returned it. When it comes to identity theft, the more proactive you are the better protection – it becomes more obvious that you aren’t ‘claiming’ theft to cover for your own bad behaviour. I don’t know how large or small your local police division is, but most of them will be able to give you assistance, and more specific information than I have here. Also, I’d bet a good number of LF’ers have gone through this and could be more specific. Most important thing though is to report this to the police – sooner rather than later.

You have an excellent point about attracting more than one type of predator – and great observation about how this “friend” is using the same techniques as your ex. Your instincts are good – I think you just need to let yourself listen to them (the first few pages of “The Gift of Fear” come to mind).

My advice would be to: “Run Away! Run Away! Run Away! Run Away!” (Sorry – just saw a documentary on Monty Python and couldn’t resist)!

Ox Drover

Dear Louise,

I think you should listen to your gut, it is not uncommon for predatory people of various kinds, including borderline personality disordered, to be so “instant friends” with you that you sense something is wrong. The “instant best friends” is a good sign that there is some problem with her boundaries so I think that you are wise to keep it at “arm’s length” for quite some time if not forever.

Also on the other hand, sometimes people who are JUST very lonely will be actively seeking for friends, but at the same time, IT IS A RED FLAG AND CAUTION IS THE WORD OF THE DAY! In MHO anyway. Glad to see you are around though Louise, welcome back!


Really sorry to hear about the hacking. I know that being hacked for some people can feel the same as being robbed.
Glad to see that everything is back up, and I hope you are OK.

Kinda reinforces the whole point of this site…


Hi Oxy,
Good points about lonely people sometimes coming on too strong. But I’m thinking that the request to “sometimes stay at my place on nights when the weather is bad” on the first day that you meet someone REALLY doesn’t pass the smell test.

Ox Drover

Annie, I agree with you about the smell test on that particular woman, to request such a “favor” on the FIRST MEETING is wayyyyyyy over and beyond the boundaries I think.

I was just making the point that not ALL “overly friendly” people are predatory but SOME sure are and almost always the psychopaths and borderlines ARE “overly friendly” at first. Even doing favors for you and “love bombing” you from the get go.

Looking back on every REALLY dysfunctional relationship I had with someone I met (rather than had as a relative) EVERY time they were “overly friendly” from the get go—“love bombing” me with flattery etc. right from the start, then BINGO!!!! BAM-O!!!! the back stabbing using and abusing!

Now I am pretty leery of anyone who comes on too strongly at the first of the relationship. It just doesn’t pay to let your guard down too soon with this kind of person.


This may be out of context but I believe it relates here. I had posted at the end of the O for Umbrella thread about my two girlfriends.

The fact that the one validates me but still looks at exH as having come across as a nice person. The people at my daughter’s group home believe the same. Yes, he did look good to other people who hadn’t been gaslighted by him.

The second girlfriend, on the other hand, has had a habit of taking the wrong side in an argument. Although we have known each other since we were toddlers and have been in and out of each other’s lives for years, we had really had a falling out recently. I stood up for myself and let her go in a flying email battle a few months ago. It was recently I got in contact with her by email to let her know of the death of a relative of mine that she knew. She emailed me back and said that she was glad that we were talking again.

I had a long talk with her on the phone late Saturday Night. As I listened to her talk about her former passisve aggressive husband, I brought up the break up of my marriage again. She very rudely told me to “Get over it.”

For those of you who didn’t read that post, let me explain that I now believe that this girlfriend is a classic Narcissist. I didn’t know it all of these years because I am only now realize that my mother is at least on the continuem. This girlfriend has reminded me of my mother this past year. My mother believes that everything that happens to me has to be at least a little bit my fault.

This girlfriend has to be the queen bee or the alpha female. Even though she is three years younger than me, if her advice is not taken, I am wrong. We are both Christians but she is a SUPER SAINT. She believes God talks to her. I believe he speaks to me also, but in different ways by confirming what he has shown me. God is very very patient with me.

I do not believe that she thinks God speaks to her audibly….BUT she still has in the past looked at us like she is the saint and I am the sinner. That is because I dared to date before my divorce was final.

I thought I could trust her again with my feelings. No I can’t.

On the other hand, I had an “aha moment” a few days ago regarding my 25 year marriage. None of it was my fault.

I had that same realization after years of processing the loss of my first marriage. He was gay and abusive. He was not abusive because he was gay. They were too separate things. The closure of that marriage was easy.

My second marriage I believe had been a power struggle from the beginning. I was the passive, dependent person, but when I started becoming more independent he because more covertly aggressive. He thought that when he left me I would fall apart. I didn’t. It has taken me until now though (almost three and a half years) to realize that the failing of this marriage was not my fault either.

The reason I came to that realization was because he was a master manipulator, verbal abuser, gaslighter, and as much as I stood up to him verbally, I NEVER realized what actually hit me until very recently. I am still processing it, and don’t know the whole story yet, but at least I don’t feel sorry for him now.

The girlfriend I mentioned is not a predator but is not a real friend either. She takes pride in the fact that she was the favorite child of her parents between she and her younger sister. She likes to give advice but cannot take advice nor gentle criticism. I am back to the drawing board on her. She is not someone I can count on.



Trying to edit above post but computer a little slow so don’t want to risk losing the post, so please excuse incomplete sentences, etc.

I am starting to realize that there are other times that this girlfriend not only didn’t validate me but actually put me down. It is like my eyes have been open the last few years when everything else in my life started making sense.

One thing I don’t do as much now is self-deprecating humor. I do not let anyone else get away with put downs of me either. They can have their opinions about anything, but when it comes to my thoughts and feelings, they are my thoughts and feelings and I know best.


lesson learned


This could be ME!!!! But only when related to exPOS. I can’t quite verbalize it, but I have instant repoire (sp) with some female friends of mine. But we DO respect one another’s boundaries. It’s kinda like tobe on here. We got to know each other here, and because our experiences with our exPOS’s were similar, we started a friendship off blog and on email. But it doesn’t feel or seem like a desperate sort of needy thing. It feels healthy to me. We share A LOT of personal stuff regarding our past Spaths and how we are or are not handling it. She’s a bit further up the road than I, and I don’t always agree with things she says nor she with me, I think, but that’s OKAY. It’s a great learning experience with a different kind of friend now. I’m LEARNING NEW BOUNDARIES IN A SAFE FRIENDSHIP!!

Who could ask for better than that??? THIS is the kind of friendship I wish I could have with BOTH men and women! My women friends outside of LF, I don’t see too much at the moment as a result of my isolation and trauma. But they understand and we all KNOW we are friends, whether we speak for days on end, or not at all for weeks on end.

I hope that verbalizes it better. I’m REALLY embarrassed about my boundary violations with last exPOS love bomb. I wish I could have had a friendship with her, but I guess the truth is that I really could not have. I wasn’t healthy enough to speak to her without thinking about exPOS and his smarmy shit. I’m truly grateful to her however, for sharing with me what he was doing and her openness in being so honest and truthful with me. It was eye opening in that what he is doing on his “Dates” is, in fact, LYING HIS ASS OFF. I read those emails we exchanged often to help remind me that that is who he really IS< not what I wanted him to be or thought he was for so long. I don't think we'll ever connect again, she and I, unless she contacts me (she asked me not to email/text anymore, don't blame her), so it has to be TOTALLY NC for right now. It doesn't even matter if it's an acquaintance. I'm not healthy enough to go there yet.


Ox Drover

Dear Truetoself,

This kind of “friend” none of us need! LOL I’m not sure if you read that I have just gotten back from a visit to my “best friend’s” house in another state, and starting to realize now dysfunctional the relationship is now, and maybe has been to some extent or another for the last 30 years. Her husband “went off on” me after being rude and “put down’s” the entire time I was there, even though she AND he had invited me there to help them butcher a cow that they had no idea how to do….but when he became overtly abusive I walked out and set the boundary in concrete.

Just because someone sits in church doesn’t make them a Christian (Christ-like) any more than sitting in a chicken house makes one a chicken. My egg donor is on the front pew every week 3 times a week and writes big checks for the church, but she LIES and manipulates and punishes anyone she can’t control or lure into doing her bidding. It took me a long time to realize that she was capable of the out right LIES and so on, but I finally got it.

Don’t think that someone is Christ-like just because they claim to be. Jesus himself warned the disciples that there would be “wolves in sheep’s clothing” come among them, Paul preached about the false prophets among even the very early church, so if you see someone who is BEARING ROTTEN FRUIT you can know that their “tree” is rotten as well, Jesus said that we would know a rotten tree by seeing its rotten fruit. She sounds pretty rotten to me.


really? 3 times a week?
My mother prays on her knees every night. She doesn’t do it in public, she does it in private – she has always done it. But then the fact that she has all the characteristics of a narcissistic mother, just confuses me.
hmmm… I just remembered, both my grandmothers prayed every night too and I think in the morning as well…
Could it be that they think they control God? Is all that praying part of their narcissism? But I pray too, when I’m in deep despair or profoundly happy. So confusing.
Maybe my mom is not a sociopath, maybe she is just a narcissist addicted to drama.
Oxy, when I think anything but positive thoughts about my mom, I feel a type of panic in my stomach. I know its because as children, our very survival depended on the trauma bond, but knowing and feeling do not mesh. I have cognitve dissonance.
Did you have that too when you finally saw your mom for what she was?



My mother, too, was a narcissist with a capital N. Growing up with her was more like being shoved down every day. She never had a kind or supportive word to say to or about me. She was beautiful & brilliant & as phony as a counterfeit $3 bill. My most vivid memories of her were always of red fingernails tearing my hair, slapping me, dragging me away from the family dinner table for spilling milk (literally &/or figuratively.) She constantly criticized my daddy & me. But worshiped & adored my older brother, who she’d cuddle with in bed til he was in his 20s. I walked in many time in my life & found her laying beside him, leaning against him (draped on him), & cooing in his ear. My daddy stayed out of the house as much as possible. I left home, ran away & got married in Mexico when I was 16.

I never had one moment’s cognitive dissonance about what I knew she was as a person & a woman & a mother just because she was “my mother”. I met my mother full-face when I read The People of the Lie 20 yrs ago.

I always felt blessed that I could see & accept what she was All My Life, rather than being caught in a “trauma bond.” As as astrological counselor, I was often amazed at people who’d convinced themselves that their parents were “perfect”….& who’d try to defend them when I’d point out their parents’ relationships with & attitudes & actions toward them…..& who would later have to come back & say, “I just couldn’t accept it then. But I know it’s true.”

We’d only resolved our differences a scant 5 yrs before she died in 02, &, even tho I never excused her treatment of me, I forgave her & did treasure the “love” I felt from her in those years.
And then she died. Alone in a hospital. With no one around her because my sociopathic cousin–who was my mother’s “companion” for 6 yrs for the purpose of changing the will & stealing our inheritance– told the family that Mother didn’t want visitors til she was better (she was very vain), & that she was getting better. She lied. Mother died. Alone. I tried to get to her in time when I found out the truth, but I was too late.

Now I feel more than panic in my stomach when I think of her & how cold it must’ve been for her…..leaving the planet so very alone. I feel a deep, deep sadness that has no resolution. I was very bitter for many, many years….so angry at the fucked-up-ness I had to endure as a child (Thank The LORD, I had Wonderful Grandparents, who saved me as a human being!!) I don’t have that bitterness anymore….sadness for her, sadness for me….but I know that the only thing I can do is to try to accept myself with whom I am as a result of & in spite of her handicapping me. And to try to work & grow from that.

I think I wore those handicaps as a tragic little red badge of honor for most of my life…..if anything good has come out of what J did to me & left me with, it’s that I know now that I have to get better. I’m trying to go with Hen’s little mantra: “I’m not the same anymore. I’ll never be the same again. But I’m going to do my best to make that a Very Good Thing.” [apologies to Hen’s mantra….I can’t remember the exact words anymore.]

Ox Drover

Dear Sky,

Yep, sure did. I had caught on some to the gaslighting, but I kept making excuses for it, “well, she probably just forgot” or “I must have heard her wrong” etc etc. but she was LYING. Then one day I CAUGHT HER IN A LIE, and the funny thing was she was accusing me of being the liar with her own lie still in her mouth.

I said to her, “You are lying, would you like me to call son C to confirm what I am saying about you telling a lie?” She looked at me with a look that would have turned me to stone if she could have, and said “WELL, just try to tell me that you never lied to me>” I looked at her and said “Yep, I sure did, when I was 15, that’s 45 years ago. I lied to you then.”

If looks could have killed she would have killed me on the spot then too, but I KNEW THEN that she not only COULD LIE, but that she had BEEN LYING TO ME FOR YEARS and I had been making excuses for it. Minimizing it. Denying it.

It truly did not dawn on me, Sky that she was CAPABLE of lying to me or anyone else, and then when I saw that SHE WAS/IS A LIAR to accomplish her purposes I was gob-smacked on the spot. I had thought she was so “holy” and that she truly believed what she preached, but I saw that she did NOT practice what she preached, that she did not hold herself to the same standards of honesty that she tried to hold others to.

Jesus warned his disciples that there would be fakers who pretended to follow him, “wolves in sheep’s clothing.” None of us are perfect, we all “sin” and do things we shouldn’t but those who have a continuing pattern of deliberate abuse of others are NOT “Christians.”


Annie, Oxy and others — thanks for your thoughts. Yes, I’ve been concerned about the idea that she may just be lonely — I know that feeling way too well!

But I’m also very concerned about the fact she wants to make my brand new apartment – the one I moved into to get myself off of my ex’s radar (you might recall, I got a protection order against him) – her home in the city, AND the fact she works at the same place he does!

I feel bad about cutting her off, if she is indeed a lonely soul — I brought this up in my woman’s group last night, and they all said “run away, run away, run away!” (or the equivalent of that) As the leader said: “if she’s meant to be your next best friend, that will happen anyway, but you have to preserve your space.” And that is what I am resolved to do.

It’s hard to be borderline paranoid. But my ex was really crazy, and I know he had other people watching me for him for awhile. . .

I hope everyone is staying warm this winter–

Oh, and I LOVE Monty Python. . . . .

Ox Drover

Dear Louise,

Sugar I agree totally, RUN do not walk AWAY from this woman.

If this woman is indeed a “lonely soul” she is Still NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to mend her loneliness. DO NOT feel guilty about rejecting her offer of “friendship.” You are NOT required to be friends with any and everyone who offers friendship to you. DUH!

Oh, and I LOVE MOnty python too. One time at a living history encampment I had a pair of small young steers and a 2-wheeled cart, and several of my friends and I were Monty Python fans, so we got a guy to lay in the cart with his feet in the air and his head hanging out the back like he was DEAD and one of my friends dressed in a long flowing cape like a monk, and another guy dressed up like a French Marine from the 1700s and we went through the camp at DAWN on a COLD morning ringing a big cow bell shouting “BRING OUT YOUR DEAD, BRING OUT YOUR DEAD” and waking everyone else in camp up. About half the people CAUGHT IT and half didn’t, but they ALL of course wanted to kill us, but I think it was one of the most innovative practical jokes. Since that time about 10 years ago, there is now a TRADITION in our group of having at least one morning where someone wakes everyone else up at the crack of dawn with some form of tomfoolery—one morning a guy dressed as a French Marine went through camp with his snare drum and one woman came out of her bed and went after him and grabbed one of his drum sticks trying to take it away from him and shove it up his arse I imagine. He kept hold of it, dragging her along, but he was STILL DRUMMING WITH THE OTHER STICK, rat-a ___., rat-a____,rat-a_____. His eyes were as big as saucers as I am sure she would have done him some damage if she could have gotten the stick out of his hand! LOL

The tradition of our story tellers is awesome so the stories get better as the years go on and the retelling! It isn’t lying, it is EMBELLISHING the story! LOL


Hi! Everybody,
Haven’t written in a while, but I read all the posts.

Most people are nice, and wouldn’t go out of their way to mess somebody up, unless you are dealing with a psycho.
So it’s really hard to see the signs, unless of course you have been burnt, by one.

Female Psychos, they are just as bad or worse.

These people are very attractive, and very seductive,
and they seem to be very into you, even when they are giving you the predatory stare, you probably think they are so into you.

They study you, and find your weakness, and then use it against you.

They want everything fast, they won’t take no for an answer,
and somehow they convince you. You have fun with them.

They play the victim, bad childhood, bad marriage, you feel sorry for them, after all, they seem nice, you would never
imagine for a minute, how badly, they are going to screw you.

After they hook you, they totally change, you know there is something wrong but you can’t figure it out.

I had a psycho girlfriend, she was a Demon, and she seemed so nice.

They don’t give up, you fight, they fight, they threaten you,
they make a scene at your house or job, you can’t confront them, they run away, and then come back like nothing.

You can’t trust them, you don’t know anything about them,
all you know is that you have a Demon harrassing you, and you can’t get rid of them.

They bring out the worst in you…

They turn everyone against you, your neighbours, your friends, family, they have no boundaries, they’ll call all hours of the night, or knock at your door all night long, they don’t care about you, all they want, is what they want.

Whether it’s your house, your money, your job, your stuff.

and it’s hell to get rid of them.

I fought back, you think that you are crazy, or going crazy,
I got stabbed in the eye, she hurt my cat, I got arrested,
I unmasked her, exposed her, fought and fought some more

Then she wanted to know if I wanted to be her Valentine…

Lucky for me she found someone else…

If it’s too good to be true…. Beware… you are in for a hell of a spin.

Thanks for these wonderful posts


Louise and Oxy,
Oh my – I think we’re showing our age! Oxy, I LOVE your “Bring out your dead!” story!!!!!

I’m really hoping that the good that can come out of Kerisee04’s letter is that we all stop looking at psychopathy/sociopathy as gendered behaviour (or age related, race related, ability/disability related, etc…) and learn how to ‘read’ it in everyone. One of the major reasons my mother has gotten away with her behaviour for years is that no-one suspects it in a female professional with a good reputation, despite pretty clear evidence that wouldn’t be overlooked were she male.

Re: Louise’s situation: this is teaching me to role-play what certain types of people would do in any situation. I think there is a significant difference between a shy ‘lonely’ person, a ‘needy’ person, and a P/S/N. I know some very shy people. Most shy people are lonely because they don’t ever make the first move – they would never dare to ask anyone if they’d like to go for coffee. The shy people I know would never DREAM of asking someone if they could ‘use your place’. At most, a shy lonely person following advice to be more assertive might accidentally overstep through lack of social skills, but they would immediately retreat afterwards – they absolutely wouldn’t be following up with multiple e-mails.

As for needy people: someone on here (Kathleen Hawk?) used to post that once someone crosses your boundaries that’s the signal to protect yourself – it doesn’t matter whether they are inappropriately needy or a P/S. Oxy is right there – we have no responsibility to ‘fix’ someone else’s loneliness. I tend to do that, and it’s a hard lesson to unlearn, because you feel like such a big meany. But that’s how we can be taken advantage of (or more accurately how we can LET ourselves be taken advantage of), because we give others the signal that that’s OK to do.

Also, your “friend???” may be lonely for a reason – and needs to learn her own life lessons. Which she can’t do if she’s rescued. I saw it as my role to protect my younger brothers growing up, but the consequence was they never learned to stand up for themselves.

But what I find most interesting is your brilliant observation that your “friend” was following THE SAME PATTERN as your ex. But then it sounds like you are discounting your own perceptions and spending a fair amount of energy (and guilt) wondering if she’s just lonely. I’m not sure if this is universally true, but my observation over the years has been that, until we’re really educated about psychopathy in women, it will be far too easy for people to misread the danger signals unless, as imfree says, you’ve already been burnt by one.

That’s also why I take exception to Steve Becker’s (and I’m a big fan of his articles) choice to only use the pronoun “he”. That seems so innocuous and trivial – but it really isn’t. Anyone who took Women’s Studies in the 70’s/early 80’s was thoroughly educated in just how powerful (and misleading)exclusive use of those pronouns could be.

So, for those who haven’t yet been ‘burnt’ by a female psychopath, I think it’s helpful to just ask yourself say “What if?” in questionable situations with women. *What if* that women was a psychopath as bad as any male psychopath I’ve encountered? What would their behaviour look like/feel like? And just connect the dots.

Ox Drover

Annie, I agree with you completely about women being just as bad or worse than male psychopaths, but many times women high in these traits are also labeled as “Borderline Personality Disordered” That name is a bad one I think, but it was named back when those people were thought to BE on the “borderline” of psychotic (crazy) but in reality it is very much like the Narcissistic and psychopathic PDs, in fact, I think that ALL of the various “different” Personality disorders that are labeled this or that are really just various forms of THE personality disorder. Sort of like a German Shepherd is a dog, and a boxer is a dog, and a beagle is a dog, but they are all DOGS. A Border Collie and a Wolf are both canines but they have different social “skills” if you will and a bit different inborn temperments.

A female dog of most breeds is somewhat differently turned than most male dogs, less aggressive etc. but a female wolf is more aggressive most of the time than a female beagle would be. So the gender differences are somewhat biological and that may account for the “different” diagnoses of different “personality disorders.”

It doesn’t mean though that a female “borderline PD” can’t be as toxic and as dangerously aggressive as a male “psychopath” though.

I wish that the mental health professional community would come together on a concensus for naming these disorders. But you have to realize that a HORSE DESIGNED BY A COMMITTEE looks more like a CAMEL! Everyone has to get their “hump” added here or there for their own egos. LOL


Hi Whyme,
I’ve been struggling a bit to respond to what you wrote – I can relate to quite a bit of it.

I can totally relate to your most vivid memory being the fingernails. In my case it was the claw-like fingers (my mother was an OR nurse and never wore nail-polish). I’d never thought about that before; it’s funny how my memory can’t really see the face – but the fingers are always what comes back to me – pinching, grabbing, pulling, twisting. Very much like the hands of that British woman caught on camera slyly, cruelly putting that cat in the garbage can. One hand being all smooth and efficient opening the bin, the other hand being all stroking and affectionate getting the cat to trust her – and then the fingers becoming hard, efficient and cruel talons – swiftly picking up the cat by the scruff and then quickly tossing it. Then swiftly and cooly closing the bin and walking away as if nothing ever happened. When I first saw that on TV that’s what I focused on – and what stayed in my memory. Her hands.

As for what you said about your brother. This may not help you directly (on the other hand it may), but what you’ve described could very likely be sexual abuse of him, or just on the edge of it. I won’t go into specifics, but my own family had something somewhat similar – although it certainly wasn’t “consensual” in our case (not that it ever is – consensual is a very inappropriate term here but I can’t think of an appropriate one at the moment). You may want to consider checking out BloggerT7165’s site: “”. It’s the first link in the “Blogroll” section on the left of this page. He’s a very nice guy – if you wanted to ask him any questions I’m sure he’d be more than happy to answer them. Finding his site has helped me put together some very big missing pieces in my understanding of my family’s own “story”. This is stuff that most people won’t dare touch, so my kudo’s to you for being brave enough to even talk about it.



The “can I stay here sometime” so soon is the huge red flag in my opinion.

That is what my ex bf spath wanted – a place to stay on alternate weekends to get away from his alcoholic treatment center halfway house. When I write that it seems like that happened an eternity ago. BUT, women spaths want the same thing. They are opportunists. If they see something that would be to their advantage they will take it.

On the other hand a regular friend may want the same thing but a little more time would pass before that would happen. I would love to have a friend that I felt comfortable enough to stay at their house and them at mine, but that type of friendship takes cultivating. Otherwise it is instant intimacy which could turn out to be your worst nightmare later on.



Oh, dang! I just saw this blog and I had to respond to it!

My former friend SANDY was after my husband; She was after any man, dog, or tree.

Sandy’s marriage ended when her husband was emotionally and physically abusive. He ran up her credit card debt, and he had a mistress on the side.

Sandy came “into her own”. She healed herself…and became the most dangerous women known to your relationship.

Sandy was after my husband. Sandy would put me down by announcing that if a man wanders it is because his wife is not satifying him.

I pointed out that her husband cheated, was it that she did not satisfy him? She poo-poohed that and said her husband had his own issues…

Sandy was so competive with me. She told me that my doctor is wrong, and ofcourse her doctor is right. One night she mentioned her doctors name. This is the funny part. Yep! You guessed it, we had the same doctor! See, we were going to same clinic. Well, Sandy was now done talking about her doctor. I pried her on. Come on Sandy tell me more about how your doctor knows more than mine….but Sandy was tight lipped.

Sandy was such a pig. We were at a mutual friends party. Sandy had one guy humping on her rear-end while her boyfriend humped on her front side. Sandy looked at my husband and pointing into her open mouth. She shouted it is another hole to fill. (I gotta point out they were clothed)

Then Sandy took some guy behind the garage. Yep at this mutual friends house. When mutual friend found out she was upset. What would the neighbors think if they saw it? (oh, by the way, Sandy’s boyfriend was at party when Sandy took some guy behind the garage)

Yet, Sandy was invited again… Our mutual friend wouldn’t listen to me about Sandy. She said she likes Sandy cause Sandy is fun.

We were at mutual friend house party. I was divorced by this time and I had a boyfriend. Sandy chased after my boyfriend around the house all night. I told her to knock it off. She laughed in my face. She really thought she had the upper hand.

So I had to show her she didn’t.

When Sandy went to give my boyfriend a deep kiss goodnight. I reached for Sandy’s stinky boyfriend and gave him a sweet kiss. I turned around with a sly smile at Sandy. I saw her soul on her face.

But, yucky! I stooped to her level and kissed her stinky boyfriend! spit, spit, spit….

I didn’t care about getting rid of my boyfriend. I already knew he was a no-good. But, that I kissed Sandy’s sloppy seconds? spit, spit, spit….

The best way to describe Sandy…. “Eighteen or eighty, blind, crippled or crazy; It don’t matter”

Mutual friend finally broke off friendship with Sandy. Sandy told mutual that she rubs something on her nipples so her dog will lick them. Sandy said what a rush this is.

So this adds a new description to Sandy. She will do it with a man, or a dog or a tree.

super chic

imfree, good to hear from you!
Thanks to everyone for writing…
seems I’ve got to pay attention to everybody!


OMG that is soooooo funny. you could get that published! I’m not kidding! you are gooooood.
The title would be, of course, “a man, a dog or a tree”
Try submitting it to a women’s magazine.
It’s a sad fact that there are more sick people out there than there are good. I know no one wants to hear that, but it’s true. Most people’s narcissistic (infantile) side has taken over. Sandy is a classic case. I’m starting to see that the problem is a lack of values. Robert Hare says that Psycopaths have shallow emotions. Fuk that, they have shallow everything. They are as shallow as infants. They have the values that infants have. What values are that? you might ask. Yours, theirs or anyones. They simply mimick what they see. and Jeannie, you described what we see on MTV all day long and Sandy was mimicking it.

Distressed Grandmother

This is a lot off topic but need advise from my friends that I have grown to trust. I tried to find a topic to suit what I need right now but cold not. My grandson is starting to lie like a trooper He tells half truths and really over plays it. I heard him tell his hockey team a down right lie like he had no self esteem left and had to make a lie to look important. I saw today that he got quit upset when I did not enable him. He came without permission here from school. He wanted a pop to take to school, which is a pop free school. When I said no he took it like it was a rejection or something. I had not seen him for a while and bumped into him at a hockey game. That night he ran here from home at 10.00 at night saying he found his mom and spaths stash he wanted to stay here. I said I can not keep you here I have to let your mom know where you are or Grandpa will have to drive you home. He then said what will happen if you don’t? I said they will call the police when they can not find you. Then I will be in trouble with the law for harboring you. He then said phone the police then I am not going home. I said just because you found there stash is no reason to break up a family a lot of family’s do drugs. I do not agree with it but it is no reason to break up a family. Then he proceeded to tell me how the spath came home drunk one night and had passed out naked on top of him, he felt alienated. Then I thought do not even go there with this and went to the phone and phoned the police to deal with this. Apparently the law found out it was just a drunken mistake and sent the boy home again. He got his hockey taken away now for doing this it did not seem to effect him at all only made him more determined and has came her every day for lunch. I got a call from my daughter yesterday with her sweet voice saying. Mom I need you to come to my house every Saturday to come and see the grandson I am talking about she did not mention the other two and went on to say for some reason he can not get you out of his system and I don’t know why? I then replied because he loves and misses us. She then said I do not want you telling him you miss him when you come and see him. I then said I do not wish to have you breathing over my shoulder and video taping me which I found out they had already done the last meeting before Christmas. She said well he is not coming over there. I then said oh you are still punishing me are you. She under her breath said a snarky no. I then told her that if they handled the last meeting right I would have already been there but I do not and will not be controlled or manipulated that we would need a mediator to work this out and come up with a reasonable solution that will work for all of us. She snapped at me then and said call a mediator. I said fine! good bye. What is your advice on how I should handle this. I did oxy get some help some med’s and a mental health worker. I’m not sure I should have listened to the mental health worker though. He told me that my grandchildren need to see me at hockey and school when I bump into them.He said that Locking my self in the house is wrong for them and me but if I did not go to that hockey game none of this would have happened. I know none of you are in this situation but all of you know more than I do.


I’m so sorry you are having to deal with this crap! This is really bad news but I guess one thing we have to realize is that things don’t stay the same. They either get better or they get worse and it looks like they are getting a bit worse for your grandson. I think I remember that he is around 10 or 12 years old?
You have handled it well so far. You have stayed out of it as much as you can so that you can’t get blamed.
Your grandson is beginning to learn how to manipulate. He is seeing that his behavior can elicit emotions and create drama. This is what he wants, but the reasons why can be varied. No matter what the reason, it probably has a root cause in fear. He feels uncertain about his status and his safety in this world. At this point he is looking to exert power over someone in order to make himself feel powerful because he feels just the opposite. He has chosen you as the one to exert power over.
Grandma, this is much bigger than either you or I can handle. He needs a therapist, quickly. It’s time for you to use your acting skills to convince your narcissistic daughter that it’s in her best interest to get the boy into therapy.
I think that being compassionate with her is the first step. Tell her that you are concerned about the boy’s behavior. and that this is a vulnerable age where things can either get better or worse because it’s right before the teenage years. I think that the thought of a troublesome teenager might scare her into getting him help.
Tell her you do not want to be involved in “counseling him” because you aren’t qualified and you don’t want to meddle. You only love both of them and want them to be happy.
Offer any assistance, such as taking him to appts or paying for the therapy. DON’T let her use this as a trump card on you, Grandma. Don’t let her try to manipulate you because of your concern. Be very aware, but non-emotional.
You are right, I don’t know much about kids or parenting – never done it, but I know about manipulitive people. They come in all ages. I hope my advice is of some use to you.

Ox Drover

Dear GRandmother,

I think the child does need counseling, and you might get your daughter to speak to the counselor in school for at least an assessment of his needs as a first step. If that doesn’t work,, then you can call the counselor at school and she can take it from there, I am under the impression that she cannot reveal where the tip came from.

If you go over to your daughter’s house to visit I would take my own digital audio (sound only) tape recorder in the pocket of a shirt or jacket, and also take along a friend who would make a good witness.

The witness could hang back enough to let you and your grandson have some privacy, maybe stroll out to the front or back yards away from others, yet in site of others.

I do agree to have you go to the sports games to show them you care about them and their activities. You also might volunteer at his school, even if you only got to see him for 5 minutes between classes or at recess for a few minutes.

I also agree with Sky that you will have to “suck up” to your daughter and I know that may be a hard pill to swallow! But the one who needs you is the boy so do what ya gotta do for him. ((((hugsd))))) and God bless!

Distressed Grandmother

Thanks guys! I know I have to do something. They keep telling me they are going to put him in counseling as I told them over and over again that there is no way this boy can deal with loosing his father then loosing him again by telling him in this mess after loosing his grandma the his dad he new to be his dad all his life is not his dad. Then they tell him that his dad is fooling around on his new girlfriend they will not let the boys see there dad because he is a alcoholic but so are they so how does he justify all this. I did talk to her again and stressed that he needs help that they have to start to take responsibility for what they do. That I am not the one in control they are making the choices and that my guilt does not have anything to do with my grandson because I do not feel I did anything wrong. I told her my guilt is in how I enabled her all her life. I will find a way to make this work without it destroying me. That is my big fear. I have been through so much. I really do not want to get hurt anymore. Thanks for your advice. I am sure you will hear from me again and I hope one day I learn enough to help others also.

Ox Drover

Dear Grandmother,

It sounds like that poor child is surrounded by the disordered. I hope that you are able to reach him with your love. I hope he will get into counseling, but even counseling for the boy isn’t going to improve his environment as long as your daughter and her husband are alcoholics and the child is growing up inside a pressure cooker of stress and drunkeness.

As for your guilty feelings about enabling your daughter all along, I suggest that you stay here and read and continue to read and learn. I also enabled my sons (now adult) and I thought I was helping them, or trying to, at the time, so don’t beat yourself up over this past behavior. You didn’t know then what you know now, So don’t blame yourself about the decisions you made. You have taken responsibility for those decisions, but leave the blame and guilt in the ditch! ((((HUgs)))) and God bless


Hi Skylar,

Sandy was making people pay for all the wrongs of her life. You got Sandy figured out.

I submitted my blog last night to a writing contest. It’s worth a shot.

thank you for your confidence in my writing



Awesome, I was really amused with you story. It is relevant to the society we live in today.

If it gets to someone with a brain, they will publish it. If not, re-submit it elsewhere, until it does. Not everyoe gets it.

You can tweek it and hone it for the particular publication you submit to.

As amusing as it was, I feel sorry for Sandy. What a waste. But, you know what? If one “sandy” out there reads your story and recognizes herself, then it will be worth the effort to submit.

Ox Drover

I was looking for an article about female psychopaths and I couldn’t find exactly the one I wanted but here is one about female psychopaths, and I think the woman in the article below is a good example of a female psychopath. She is obviously a liar, lives a chaotic lifestyle and now she is a murderer.

I have know several women who were high in psychopathic traits, most of them “functional” in society, not criminals, yet abusers and users and who frequently posed as “victims” of others even though they were the ones who were either abusing or attempting to abuse others. They were liars and cheats, dishonest and uncaring. Manipulators and attempted to control others and filled with rage and malice.


interesting subject. Since i know the traits of a psychopathic personalty i’ve came to realize there are more psychopathic women than it is said. I don’t believe there’s such a disproportion between male and female psychopathic incidence. Male chovinism, paternalism, less psysical aggressivity in women, etc. allow the experts ignore the fact that there are probably as many psychopathic women as psychopathic men.


Wow. I really enjoyed reading this one. Didn’t think about the other side of the spectrum. Not only must we beware of Spath lovers but if we hitch a good guy we must look out for female Spaths too! OMG…this is hard. Reminds me of the lady in the movie Obsessed or the MANY movies I have watched on Lifetime! You would think with Lifetime we would know all about Spaths and LF would not be in existence! LOL

lesson learned

Ox, this is an interesting subject especially given that I think a good friend of many years is probably a spath female. I keep my distance these days but have not gone completely NC.

She is so abusive, I can’t stand to be around her for very long and I’ve watched her abuse others around her too.



the spath females I’ve known are subtle, manipulitive and deceitful. They fly under the radar, and stab you in the back.

It’s weird how ALL the spaths I’ve known are that way. Is it something about me that attracts back-stabbing spaths? Or do they just know that there is no other way to approach me?

Why can’t I meet a nice, upfront-abusive spath, like normal people?

lesson learned



Well, get this. She’s abusive as abusive can be. BUT she can also flip all of that and be your very best friend in times of trouble or need. The many people she has helped have been insurmountable..and for that I applaud her…but to be in her presence is more often than not, very stressful. She backstabs me too. Writes horrible status shuffles aimed at me. I often wondered why she hated me so much, yet claimed to love me so much…when I tried to make the friendship work, she was VERY needy. I wasn’t allowed to say no to her….and it wound up pissing me off because she became demanding. I don’t know how her husband puts up with her. He’s pretty quiet overall.. and a very kind man.

I don’t get it, but what i do get, is that I need to keep my distance, so that I don’t get sucked into her vortex again.

Sad thing is, that now when I see her, as I did the other day, I can see classic spath tactics in how she abuses her family.


I”m just so done with spathdom. To me, I guess right now, they seem to be everywhere, Sky. 🙁

lesson learned


Ya know what’s weird? I can spot a female spath a mile away. It’s the same shit. The pity play. I watch for it no matter whom I’m connected too. There is a really huge difference between those who deserve our pity, who are truly struggling than a big huge sob story, ya know? I read that in Martha’s book and amazingly, since I’ve been watching for it, I’ve not been wrong once. It’s helping me fine tune my radar. Unfortunately, this is creating a situation in which my circle is getting smaller. I don’t want to seem like I’m stuck up, because really, I do like being around people in general. I just can’t trust them anymore….

It sucks.


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