Editor’s note: Lovefraud received the following from the reader who posts as “Kerisee04.”
How does a person know if they have engaged in a friendship with a female predator? So often it is the romantic relationships that are discussed, and usually about male sociopaths.
First of all, it’s important to note that if you are a male, to the female sociopath, you either a sexual target or a source of financial gain. In my experience with the female sociopath, in her mind, there is no man beyond her reach. She has sexual fantasies about all men she encounters and runs scenarios in her head to accomplish her goal. In my naive state of mind, I had no idea this particular female sociopath was after my husband.
There really is no “friendship” with a sociopath. While the female target may feel a sense of obligation and social grace toward the female sociopath, the sociopath feigns sincerity. Some of the signals I missed were:
1. Back-handed compliments. “You dress frumpy. You need to find clothes that fit you better.” Or, “I know you don’t give your husband everything he needs.” Or, “Do you know how hot your husband is?”
2. Immediate soul-mate connection with my husband. “He and I are so alike.” Or, “It’s like we’re brother and sister. I understand him.”
3. Fake displays of emotion, similar to histrionics. She would fly off the handle over any changes that were made to plans, she would manipulate everybody to feel sorry for her and eventually give in to her out of pity.
4. Lack of boundaries. She would come over every day and stay until I literally kicked her out at 2 a.m. After I had surgery, I managed to stay up until 1 a.m. with her and my husband until I passed out from exhaustion. I found out the next day that she stayed until 5 a.m., alone with my husband in my living room.
5. Lack of shame. She would pull me into sexual discussions of fantasies, comparing sizes of anatomy, and playing games of truth or dare. These are things I would never under normal circumstances allow myself to take part in. No subject or dare was off-limits to her, and I was given the impression that she was my best friend and would keep all my secrets. Only later did I find out that she took mental note of everything I said to use against me when her lies finally came out.
6. Her attempts to be alone with my husband under the guise of platonic friendship. “He’s coming over to hang pictures for me.” And, “We met for lunch since we were both in the same area.”
There are so many flags I missed. Or maybe I didn’t miss them; I just ignored them. The most embarrassing of all is my nonchalant attitude when her affair with my husband came out. My husband (now ex-husband) had fallen victim to her seduction. Granted, things were not great in our marriage to begin with, but we had managed to be faithful to each other for seven years until she entered our world. My husband had a guilty conscience and finally came forward with their affair.
Read more: Guidelines for dealing with female sociopaths
When the female sociopath found out about this, she immediately resorted to histrionics. “I can’t believe he would do something like this to me. I finally trust someone, and they stab me in the back.” And, “It was an accident. We just went a little too far during the truth or dare game. Now you’re going to hate me and I’m going to lose my best friend!” She was flipping out and crying.
I had no time to think about the implications. I was thinking about the ways in which I could have unknowingly facilitated the affair. That’s exactly what she wanted. When I finally pulled away and talked with my spiritual elders, I told them I was worried about her. She was so messed up mentally over this that I feared she might hurt herself. After all, I was her friend. Then one of the elders told me something that finally turned on the light in my head: “Anybody that would do something like that to their friend is NOT a true friend.”
It took me a few hours to let that sink in and realize the magnitude of my situation. In the coming days and months, the story came out in bits and pieces. Some from my husband, who was trying desperately to hold on to me, and some from the female sociopath, who was trying to downplay the affair until she was backed into the corner with the truth.
When all her numerous affairs (we stopped counting at 30) came out, her husband slowly began to realize the predatory trap that she held him in. She had cheated on him throughout their entire marriage, sometimes dropping their two kids off at daycare for a “mom’s day off” and driving to another town for a quickie with one of her men.
When she talked with our mutual friends and elders about the situation, she was sure to exploit every secret I had confided to her and she would twist the truth to seem as though I coerced her and my husband into doing what they did so that I could divorce him. It all seemed so sincere. Except, there wasn’t a shred of truth to it. In fact, she was using projection. Her goal was to get me to say and do self-incriminating things so that she would have ammunition against me when everything hit the fan.
It was truly a time of awakening for me. There truly isn’t good in all people. Just most people.
Though healthy individuals like to believe that change is possible, I have come to the realization that when a person is animalistic in nature, contains no actual emotions or feelings, and looks for manipulation in everybody she meets, there is no possibility of healthy change. This female sociopath’s parents have held on to the hope for the past four years that she would change. They have even at times helped her out financially, only to be confronted with more of her lies.
There is much more to the story. This, in fact, is only a chapter—the first chapter of my entanglement with this particular female sociopath. But I feel it’s important for people to understand the complexities of so-called friendship with a female predator. It’s important to recognize the signs and for your own good, to never give them what they want.
Learn more: Survivor’s guide to healthy people and healthy relationships
Lovefraud originally posted this story on Jan. 19, 2011.
LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: I lied to myself as I became close to him again
Trying to edit above post but computer a little slow so don’t want to risk losing the post, so please excuse incomplete sentences, etc.
I am starting to realize that there are other times that this girlfriend not only didn’t validate me but actually put me down. It is like my eyes have been open the last few years when everything else in my life started making sense.
One thing I don’t do as much now is self-deprecating humor. I do not let anyone else get away with put downs of me either. They can have their opinions about anything, but when it comes to my thoughts and feelings, they are my thoughts and feelings and I know best.
TTS
Wow,
This could be ME!!!! But only when related to exPOS. I can’t quite verbalize it, but I have instant repoire (sp) with some female friends of mine. But we DO respect one another’s boundaries. It’s kinda like tobe on here. We got to know each other here, and because our experiences with our exPOS’s were similar, we started a friendship off blog and on email. But it doesn’t feel or seem like a desperate sort of needy thing. It feels healthy to me. We share A LOT of personal stuff regarding our past Spaths and how we are or are not handling it. She’s a bit further up the road than I, and I don’t always agree with things she says nor she with me, I think, but that’s OKAY. It’s a great learning experience with a different kind of friend now. I’m LEARNING NEW BOUNDARIES IN A SAFE FRIENDSHIP!!
Who could ask for better than that??? THIS is the kind of friendship I wish I could have with BOTH men and women! My women friends outside of LF, I don’t see too much at the moment as a result of my isolation and trauma. But they understand and we all KNOW we are friends, whether we speak for days on end, or not at all for weeks on end.
I hope that verbalizes it better. I’m REALLY embarrassed about my boundary violations with last exPOS love bomb. I wish I could have had a friendship with her, but I guess the truth is that I really could not have. I wasn’t healthy enough to speak to her without thinking about exPOS and his smarmy shit. I’m truly grateful to her however, for sharing with me what he was doing and her openness in being so honest and truthful with me. It was eye opening in that what he is doing on his “Dates” is, in fact, LYING HIS ASS OFF. I read those emails we exchanged often to help remind me that that is who he really IS< not what I wanted him to be or thought he was for so long. I don't think we'll ever connect again, she and I, unless she contacts me (she asked me not to email/text anymore, don't blame her), so it has to be TOTALLY NC for right now. It doesn't even matter if it's an acquaintance. I'm not healthy enough to go there yet.
LL
Dear Truetoself,
This kind of “friend” none of us need! LOL I’m not sure if you read that I have just gotten back from a visit to my “best friend’s” house in another state, and starting to realize now dysfunctional the relationship is now, and maybe has been to some extent or another for the last 30 years. Her husband “went off on” me after being rude and “put down’s” the entire time I was there, even though she AND he had invited me there to help them butcher a cow that they had no idea how to do….but when he became overtly abusive I walked out and set the boundary in concrete.
Just because someone sits in church doesn’t make them a Christian (Christ-like) any more than sitting in a chicken house makes one a chicken. My egg donor is on the front pew every week 3 times a week and writes big checks for the church, but she LIES and manipulates and punishes anyone she can’t control or lure into doing her bidding. It took me a long time to realize that she was capable of the out right LIES and so on, but I finally got it.
Don’t think that someone is Christ-like just because they claim to be. Jesus himself warned the disciples that there would be “wolves in sheep’s clothing” come among them, Paul preached about the false prophets among even the very early church, so if you see someone who is BEARING ROTTEN FRUIT you can know that their “tree” is rotten as well, Jesus said that we would know a rotten tree by seeing its rotten fruit. She sounds pretty rotten to me.
Oxy,
really? 3 times a week?
My mother prays on her knees every night. She doesn’t do it in public, she does it in private – she has always done it. But then the fact that she has all the characteristics of a narcissistic mother, just confuses me.
hmmm… I just remembered, both my grandmothers prayed every night too and I think in the morning as well…
Could it be that they think they control God? Is all that praying part of their narcissism? But I pray too, when I’m in deep despair or profoundly happy. So confusing.
Maybe my mom is not a sociopath, maybe she is just a narcissist addicted to drama.
Oxy, when I think anything but positive thoughts about my mom, I feel a type of panic in my stomach. I know its because as children, our very survival depended on the trauma bond, but knowing and feeling do not mesh. I have cognitve dissonance.
Did you have that too when you finally saw your mom for what she was?
Sky,
My mother, too, was a narcissist with a capital N. Growing up with her was more like being shoved down every day. She never had a kind or supportive word to say to or about me. She was beautiful & brilliant & as phony as a counterfeit $3 bill. My most vivid memories of her were always of red fingernails tearing my hair, slapping me, dragging me away from the family dinner table for spilling milk (literally &/or figuratively.) She constantly criticized my daddy & me. But worshiped & adored my older brother, who she’d cuddle with in bed til he was in his 20s. I walked in many time in my life & found her laying beside him, leaning against him (draped on him), & cooing in his ear. My daddy stayed out of the house as much as possible. I left home, ran away & got married in Mexico when I was 16.
I never had one moment’s cognitive dissonance about what I knew she was as a person & a woman & a mother just because she was “my mother”. I met my mother full-face when I read The People of the Lie 20 yrs ago.
I always felt blessed that I could see & accept what she was All My Life, rather than being caught in a “trauma bond.” As as astrological counselor, I was often amazed at people who’d convinced themselves that their parents were “perfect”….& who’d try to defend them when I’d point out their parents’ relationships with & attitudes & actions toward them…..& who would later have to come back & say, “I just couldn’t accept it then. But I know it’s true.”
We’d only resolved our differences a scant 5 yrs before she died in 02, &, even tho I never excused her treatment of me, I forgave her & did treasure the “love” I felt from her in those years.
And then she died. Alone in a hospital. With no one around her because my sociopathic cousin–who was my mother’s “companion” for 6 yrs for the purpose of changing the will & stealing our inheritance– told the family that Mother didn’t want visitors til she was better (she was very vain), & that she was getting better. She lied. Mother died. Alone. I tried to get to her in time when I found out the truth, but I was too late.
Now I feel more than panic in my stomach when I think of her & how cold it must’ve been for her…..leaving the planet so very alone. I feel a deep, deep sadness that has no resolution. I was very bitter for many, many years….so angry at the fucked-up-ness I had to endure as a child (Thank The LORD, I had Wonderful Grandparents, who saved me as a human being!!) I don’t have that bitterness anymore….sadness for her, sadness for me….but I know that the only thing I can do is to try to accept myself with whom I am as a result of & in spite of her handicapping me. And to try to work & grow from that.
I think I wore those handicaps as a tragic little red badge of honor for most of my life…..if anything good has come out of what J did to me & left me with, it’s that I know now that I have to get better. I’m trying to go with Hen’s little mantra: “I’m not the same anymore. I’ll never be the same again. But I’m going to do my best to make that a Very Good Thing.” [apologies to Hen’s mantra….I can’t remember the exact words anymore.]
Dear Sky,
Yep, sure did. I had caught on some to the gaslighting, but I kept making excuses for it, “well, she probably just forgot” or “I must have heard her wrong” etc etc. but she was LYING. Then one day I CAUGHT HER IN A LIE, and the funny thing was she was accusing me of being the liar with her own lie still in her mouth.
I said to her, “You are lying, would you like me to call son C to confirm what I am saying about you telling a lie?” She looked at me with a look that would have turned me to stone if she could have, and said “WELL, just try to tell me that you never lied to me>” I looked at her and said “Yep, I sure did, when I was 15, that’s 45 years ago. I lied to you then.”
If looks could have killed she would have killed me on the spot then too, but I KNEW THEN that she not only COULD LIE, but that she had BEEN LYING TO ME FOR YEARS and I had been making excuses for it. Minimizing it. Denying it.
It truly did not dawn on me, Sky that she was CAPABLE of lying to me or anyone else, and then when I saw that SHE WAS/IS A LIAR to accomplish her purposes I was gob-smacked on the spot. I had thought she was so “holy” and that she truly believed what she preached, but I saw that she did NOT practice what she preached, that she did not hold herself to the same standards of honesty that she tried to hold others to.
Jesus warned his disciples that there would be fakers who pretended to follow him, “wolves in sheep’s clothing.” None of us are perfect, we all “sin” and do things we shouldn’t but those who have a continuing pattern of deliberate abuse of others are NOT “Christians.”
Annie, Oxy and others — thanks for your thoughts. Yes, I’ve been concerned about the idea that she may just be lonely — I know that feeling way too well!
But I’m also very concerned about the fact she wants to make my brand new apartment – the one I moved into to get myself off of my ex’s radar (you might recall, I got a protection order against him) – her home in the city, AND the fact she works at the same place he does!
I feel bad about cutting her off, if she is indeed a lonely soul — I brought this up in my woman’s group last night, and they all said “run away, run away, run away!” (or the equivalent of that) As the leader said: “if she’s meant to be your next best friend, that will happen anyway, but you have to preserve your space.” And that is what I am resolved to do.
It’s hard to be borderline paranoid. But my ex was really crazy, and I know he had other people watching me for him for awhile. . .
I hope everyone is staying warm this winter–
Oh, and I LOVE Monty Python. . . . .
Dear Louise,
Sugar I agree totally, RUN do not walk AWAY from this woman.
If this woman is indeed a “lonely soul” she is Still NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to mend her loneliness. DO NOT feel guilty about rejecting her offer of “friendship.” You are NOT required to be friends with any and everyone who offers friendship to you. DUH!
Oh, and I LOVE MOnty python too. One time at a living history encampment I had a pair of small young steers and a 2-wheeled cart, and several of my friends and I were Monty Python fans, so we got a guy to lay in the cart with his feet in the air and his head hanging out the back like he was DEAD and one of my friends dressed in a long flowing cape like a monk, and another guy dressed up like a French Marine from the 1700s and we went through the camp at DAWN on a COLD morning ringing a big cow bell shouting “BRING OUT YOUR DEAD, BRING OUT YOUR DEAD” and waking everyone else in camp up. About half the people CAUGHT IT and half didn’t, but they ALL of course wanted to kill us, but I think it was one of the most innovative practical jokes. Since that time about 10 years ago, there is now a TRADITION in our group of having at least one morning where someone wakes everyone else up at the crack of dawn with some form of tomfoolery—one morning a guy dressed as a French Marine went through camp with his snare drum and one woman came out of her bed and went after him and grabbed one of his drum sticks trying to take it away from him and shove it up his arse I imagine. He kept hold of it, dragging her along, but he was STILL DRUMMING WITH THE OTHER STICK, rat-a ___., rat-a____,rat-a_____. His eyes were as big as saucers as I am sure she would have done him some damage if she could have gotten the stick out of his hand! LOL
The tradition of our story tellers is awesome so the stories get better as the years go on and the retelling! It isn’t lying, it is EMBELLISHING the story! LOL
Hi! Everybody,
Haven’t written in a while, but I read all the posts.
Most people are nice, and wouldn’t go out of their way to mess somebody up, unless you are dealing with a psycho.
So it’s really hard to see the signs, unless of course you have been burnt, by one.
Female Psychos, they are just as bad or worse.
These people are very attractive, and very seductive,
and they seem to be very into you, even when they are giving you the predatory stare, you probably think they are so into you.
They study you, and find your weakness, and then use it against you.
They want everything fast, they won’t take no for an answer,
and somehow they convince you. You have fun with them.
They play the victim, bad childhood, bad marriage, you feel sorry for them, after all, they seem nice, you would never
imagine for a minute, how badly, they are going to screw you.
After they hook you, they totally change, you know there is something wrong but you can’t figure it out.
I had a psycho girlfriend, she was a Demon, and she seemed so nice.
They don’t give up, you fight, they fight, they threaten you,
they make a scene at your house or job, you can’t confront them, they run away, and then come back like nothing.
You can’t trust them, you don’t know anything about them,
all you know is that you have a Demon harrassing you, and you can’t get rid of them.
They bring out the worst in you…
They turn everyone against you, your neighbours, your friends, family, they have no boundaries, they’ll call all hours of the night, or knock at your door all night long, they don’t care about you, all they want, is what they want.
Whether it’s your house, your money, your job, your stuff.
and it’s hell to get rid of them.
I fought back, you think that you are crazy, or going crazy,
I got stabbed in the eye, she hurt my cat, I got arrested,
I unmasked her, exposed her, fought and fought some more
Then she wanted to know if I wanted to be her Valentine…
Lucky for me she found someone else…
If it’s too good to be true…. Beware… you are in for a hell of a spin.
Thanks for these wonderful posts
Louise and Oxy,
Oh my – I think we’re showing our age! Oxy, I LOVE your “Bring out your dead!” story!!!!!
I’m really hoping that the good that can come out of Kerisee04’s letter is that we all stop looking at psychopathy/sociopathy as gendered behaviour (or age related, race related, ability/disability related, etc…) and learn how to ‘read’ it in everyone. One of the major reasons my mother has gotten away with her behaviour for years is that no-one suspects it in a female professional with a good reputation, despite pretty clear evidence that wouldn’t be overlooked were she male.
Re: Louise’s situation: this is teaching me to role-play what certain types of people would do in any situation. I think there is a significant difference between a shy ‘lonely’ person, a ‘needy’ person, and a P/S/N. I know some very shy people. Most shy people are lonely because they don’t ever make the first move – they would never dare to ask anyone if they’d like to go for coffee. The shy people I know would never DREAM of asking someone if they could ‘use your place’. At most, a shy lonely person following advice to be more assertive might accidentally overstep through lack of social skills, but they would immediately retreat afterwards – they absolutely wouldn’t be following up with multiple e-mails.
As for needy people: someone on here (Kathleen Hawk?) used to post that once someone crosses your boundaries that’s the signal to protect yourself – it doesn’t matter whether they are inappropriately needy or a P/S. Oxy is right there – we have no responsibility to ‘fix’ someone else’s loneliness. I tend to do that, and it’s a hard lesson to unlearn, because you feel like such a big meany. But that’s how we can be taken advantage of (or more accurately how we can LET ourselves be taken advantage of), because we give others the signal that that’s OK to do.
Also, your “friend???” may be lonely for a reason – and needs to learn her own life lessons. Which she can’t do if she’s rescued. I saw it as my role to protect my younger brothers growing up, but the consequence was they never learned to stand up for themselves.
But what I find most interesting is your brilliant observation that your “friend” was following THE SAME PATTERN as your ex. But then it sounds like you are discounting your own perceptions and spending a fair amount of energy (and guilt) wondering if she’s just lonely. I’m not sure if this is universally true, but my observation over the years has been that, until we’re really educated about psychopathy in women, it will be far too easy for people to misread the danger signals unless, as imfree says, you’ve already been burnt by one.
That’s also why I take exception to Steve Becker’s (and I’m a big fan of his articles) choice to only use the pronoun “he”. That seems so innocuous and trivial – but it really isn’t. Anyone who took Women’s Studies in the 70’s/early 80’s was thoroughly educated in just how powerful (and misleading)exclusive use of those pronouns could be.
So, for those who haven’t yet been ‘burnt’ by a female psychopath, I think it’s helpful to just ask yourself say “What if?” in questionable situations with women. *What if* that women was a psychopath as bad as any male psychopath I’ve encountered? What would their behaviour look like/feel like? And just connect the dots.