UPDATED FOR 2024. Last week, Lovefraud posted a letter from “Cybil,” I did not choose this guy. Here’s more of her experience about “things people say.”
I’ll call this, “Things people say, part II.” This is the other one that bugs me: “You’re paranoid.” I always have a good 24 hours of self-doubt before I realize they’re the ones that are nuts, not me. I know a lot more about what crazy stuff is out there in the world than your average, never-tangled-with-a-sociopath human does.
I just went to a seminar of a national expert on how domestic violence leads to murder, especially for women. Over and over he said, “Trust your instinct.” He told the audience to take women seriously when they have these stories (like those on this blog) and that if she is a co-worker you should elevate these stories to security for everyone’s safety because it could easily become a workplace shooting.
Paranoid
But continually I have had people in my life say I am paranoid since my ex came into my life. HE used to tell me I was paranoid. Crazy. Hysterical. Depressed. I wasn’t. I was living in a psychological and physical war zone. People who survive sociopaths have survived wars. The people on the blog are war-buddies.
The funny part is watching how the people who told me I was paranoid act when their blinders fall off. Like my parents, every few weeks another blinder falls off. When the death threats came in, they were in shock and they never said, “You told us so,” but they started taking things a bit more seriously and realized that when they told me I was paranoid that he was going to kill me (Well, yes, he hit you, he lied to you, he had an arrest record, but he’d never kill you. He’d get in trouble. He’s not that stupid), they were wrong. The sad part is watching them go back into denial as the “living with death threats” thing starts to become routine.
A strange event happened the other day. I called the police. My parents say: You know that was just a random thing that happened. You’re paranoid.
Really?
Responsibility
I am going to start telling people in my life, you are not allowed to tell me I’m paranoid or that I chose this guy. Not only is it horribly deflating, it goes to the heart of what I am healing from and getting stronger by.
When people tell me “You chose him,” they are telling me I have to take more responsibility, but taking more than my share of responsibility for what happened is what kept me in the bad relationship longer than I should have been. Because I started to believe it was my fault, because he told me it was my fault. If I could just fix me, then maybe he wouldn’t have to get so crazy and mean. It took me several years of dangerous experimenting with every “me” I could be, to realize it wasn’t ME. Yeah, I don’t have a problem taking responsibility and I don’t need help taking more.
When people tell me “You’re paranoid,” they are really questioning my instinct and telling me not to listen to it. I am a year and a half out from living with an abuser and a gaslighter; I am largely over the hyper-alert period. I know what I feel. Doubting that was also what kept me in the bad place: Maybe he is telling the truth, maybe he did do that for my own good, maybe I am being too judgmental, maybe I should give him another chance. Not doubting my instinct to walk out that last time was what let me walk out!!!!
I’m not going back there. Not even in a mental sense.
Learn more: Beyond betrayal — how to recover from the trauma
Lovefraud originally posted this story on Nov. 27, 2010.
skylar, if you’re on to them, and you know what they are doing, why do you have to go NC if you don’t want to? They can’t control you anymore, don’t let them put guilt on you either, just let it roll off your back. MAYBE they fall under the idea that… they are being parents by the example that was set by their parents, this is all tlhey know, it’s normal to them because this is what was done to them. You broke the cycle when your eyes were opened to the truth about the ex-P, and now your eyes are looking at everyone differently. If it is going to be too heartbreaking to go NC, then just have visits where you keep things upbeat and boring… YOU CAN ALWAYS CHANGE YOUR MIND LATER, YOU SOUND TOO FRAGILE TO TAKE THIS ON RIGHT NOW.
Chic, some of us can have “superfiscial” interactions with them and handle that. Matt does that so that he can have contact with his sibs kids I think…but others of us are too traumatized by that FAKE contact, just being near them makes us want to puke, so I think NC or a low-level contact is a personal choice for each of us on these people.
Matt also says he wants to feel when they are gone that he did not treat them badly or that he should have any guilt for any neglect. Well, I am an only child and I am NC, BUT I do not feel I have an obligation to her to have contact, because SHE is the one who D&D’d me—she then wanted to come back and get a “do over” but I said NO THANKS, no discussion of what you did, no admission of what you did, no remorse for what you did, and just wanting to play “let’s pretend none of this every happened”–NO THANKS, NO DO OVERS…I’m done playing “let’s pretend you did not purposely abuse, devalue and discard me and then we will make like we are a ‘nice normal family?” No thanks! NC I no longer have any OBLIGATION to “care for” her or even to talk to her because she took away my power of attorney (my legal right!) and threw me away. I am not obligated to go back to her.
I view it like this. If your spouse DIVORCED you for someone else, and then the some one else turned out to be a cheat and a fraud and dumped your now-X-spouse, and they came over to your house and said “Oh, by the way, the new spouse dumped me and stole money from me, so I think you and I need to get remarried, DARLING! Let’s just pretend I didn’t dump and divorce you and cheat on you.” It would be almost the same thing my egg donor did. She BETRAYED me, “divorced” me as it were, legally when she canceled my Power of Attorney, so in my mind THE DIVORCE IS FINAL.
Not everyone feels that there has been a “divorce” just because the “relationSHIT” isn’t close and satisfying and they are willing to continue a social interaction on a low level…without that being upsetting to them. However, if you truly LOVE someone and you know that they don’t love you back, or that they actually disrespect and despise you, it is difficult to be (for me) around those people because YOU want more of a relationship than they are willing to provide and it makes it (to me) more painful.
So since I DID want my egg donor to love me, and she instead showed her disrespect for me, it was so painful to me that I cna’t be around her and be comfortable, and over time of NC I have come to WANT her love less and less to the point I am reaching indifference about her, and just accepting that she never loved me normally and never nurtured me, and I can’t go back and re-do that in the past, and I am not going to allow her to CONTINUE to disrespect me in the future. I am comfortable with having NO relationshit with her, comfortable in being AWAY from her—and away from anyone who does not love and respect me the way i deserve to be. Sure it is a “shame” that she doesn’t have a child that cares about her any more, and it is a shame I never had a mother who loved me and nurtured me, WE BOTH LOSE, but it isn’t something I can fix and she doesn’t know how, and isn’t capable of fixing herself but the good thing is, I can go on and have a good life even without a relationshit with her. My life and happiness does not depend on HER any more.
shabby,
I can’t even respond correctly because the words twist around on themselves. If I say, I wish I could have a superficial relationship, that’s not true I want more. But if I say, I want to love them, that’s not true either, I want NC, but then I don’t want NC, I want to love them.
Besides, when I go over there, they love bomb me with this really sad, pleading look on their faces. Hugs and all. The guilt starts there. They want forgiveness, but they won’t LET me forgive because they aren’t sorry, so instead I get saddled with guilt for not forgiving. I’m cold to them, sometimes lukewarm. I leave without saying goodbye. My mom used to bless me with the sign of the cross and a prayer whenever I left her house. Now I won’t let her. I’ve taken away something that was really important to her, her need that I perceive her as a saint. My dad, just hugs me and once, I dreamt that I saw him crying, the next day when I visited them, he began crying as I left the house. They were real tears, he is a narcissist and feels things deeply (for himself).
Oxy pretty much summed it up.
Dear ((((Skylar))))
I hear you babe! I think you are saying what you feel and what you feel right now is ambivalence and that is normal and to be expected, I felt that way myself for sooo long. So hurt because she didn’t love me, and wanting to prove to her how much I loved her so she would love me back and being hurt because she called me a liar when I was the ONLY one telling the truth. That she would PREFER the P-DIL who was such a piece of TRASH over me. That she would prefer the TROJAN HORSE P over me, that she would prefer the P son over my adopted son and even over son C, just didn’t make sense. How could the Trojan Horse be “family” and my adopted son who had done so much for her, loved her so much, “Not be blood?” BLOOD for goodness sakes! What is love? Water?
Maybe for now, you can just decide not to decide anything on a permanent basis–just take it one day at a time. TODAY I don’t feel like contact with them, I will see what I feel like tomorrow.
I know with the holidays coming up that might be tough, but when my egg donor would start in on her carp about having the holidays with Her brother UNCLE MONSTER years ago and then she would cry and tell me how I was going to hell because I didn’t forgive him (he was STILL drinking and abusing others just not me) and how I was RUINING HER CHRISTMAS, I would just take my kids and/or husband and decide to VISIT the west coast or somewhere else for the holidays.
Maybe you can make “plans” for some special holiday get away, and if you have no money for a get away, just cancel at the last minute if you don’t want to go. Just call and say “I know I made plans to be at your house today for Christmas, but I just don’t feel like it today and I have to stay home and rest” That is not even a lie. It is YOUR right to not associate with anyone you don’t feel comfortable with at any time. Your RIGHT! Use it. and don’t feel guilty. You have a CHOICE to feel guilty or not. (((hugs)))
I don’t know how to label it. I just know the twists in my relationship with immediate family have been very hurtful over the years and there was always a twist.
After the spath attack, I could look back and see the whole thing in a new light. How it was possible for the spath to play me hard against their backdrop.
There were HERDS OF ELEPHANTS in the Living room I guess.
Whatever happened to cause it, my emotional bonds snapped at about the same time. I just don’t feel the way I used to any more. About any of the players in the game. Not the spath nor the people who made his act of kindness, concern and champion appear credible.
There are things he observed that ring true. He did see some things clearly even if he positioned them to advantage. He was not burdened by empathy or emotional guilt.
I am deeply saddened by this chapter in the story that is repeated over and over and over. Family IS important to us all.
And there are many in the world who have been cheated out of what it should be and have been.
Peace out,
Dear Silver,
You know I have noticed that “Norman Rockwellian” families are RARE and few and far between. there are plenty of folks who put up that MASK of PRETENDING WE ARE A NICE NORMAL FAMILY, but when you get to know them you realize it is NOT SO.
I think we (Americans especially) have been conditioned to believe that we should have this Norman Rockwellian family life and that EVERYONE ELSE DOES HAVE it. When in fact, it is NOT true that many or even most others have it. The more I get to know others the more I know they don’t have what they pretend to have, or what they even THINK they have.
I THOUGHT I had a “nice normal family”—I really did think that–but upon closer examination, I can look back and see that I was so deep in UNKNOWING OF WHAT A NORMAL FAMILY WAS that it wasn’t even “denial” it was ABSOLUTE IGNORANCE. LOL The same thing with my x husband’s family, they appeared so “normal” and so Norman Rockwellian, but in fact they were a nest of vipers with captive prey, and the vipers did not tolerate rebellion without swift and sure punishment.
I just wrote a very long letter to my sister asking for her advice. During that letter, words came out of my subconcious that gave me even clearer insight into what is happening and why I feel the urgent need to clean this up right now. I feel I’m in danger of being scapegoated. I’ll try to sum it up and post it, it was an amazing insight.
Oxy,
I don’t do holidays with my family anymore and unless this can be fixed I never will again. When the truth comes out, there will be hell to pay because we still have a trojan horse living with my little evil sister and my sociopathic brother is in the basement. He is not redeemable. Pure Clean Sociopath whose only saving grace is that he is too lazy to go around hurting people. He only hurt me when I pulled off his mask and told him I knew what he was. That is always a mistake and if my mom is a sociopath I don’t want to make that.
My parents bend over backwards for me, but they won’t say they are sorry, This behavior is meant to instill GUILT in me because I haven’t forgiven them, but I can’t forgive them if they aren’t sorry. So now they have “slimed” me with THEIR GUILT. I feel guilty because I don’t forgive the saintly martyrs that love me so much.
It is the classic story of the scapegoat. Traditionally a scapegoat is a complete innocent (animal or human or Jesus) that takes on the sins of the community and is sacrificed. So now they can be free of the GUILT and not have to feel it. So last time, when I was 15, my parents became very loving but they never said they were sorry, and I forgave them but they guilted me into thinking that I had been the problem as much as they were.
But since they were never sorry, they were secretly doing the same thing for the next 25 years.
Now, they are trying to do the same thing again: guilt me into forgiving them without being sorry. Then I get to be the scapegoat and wear their guilt. Well when it was done to Jesus, He did forgive and He said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.”
And Jesus took on the sins of the world even though He was innocent and also BECAUSE he was innocent. A sacrifice must be pure.
Well, I’m not Jesus, I’m not pure, I am innocent but I don’t want their guilt and I don’t want to be a scapegoat. It is a nasty cycle and the cause of all the wars and carnage in the world. And if they don’t know what they are doing, it’s because they don’t want to know, I have attempted to teach them without accusing. Only telling them enough so that they can look at themselves and see.
It’s like my bf says: we need a spell to end all spells.
Once the spell is broken, the hysteroidal cycle of guilt and scapegoating can end.
Rene Girard says the same thing. Jesus came to break the cycle, because when he was killed, everyone realized that he was innocent. They couldn’t fool themselves anymore. Unfortunately, we have forgotten that part of the story or not understood it. So we continue creating wars and drama to absolve us of the guilt we can’t stand to feel.
Sounds like the story of a sociopathic human race to me.
Skylar wrote “Besides, when I go over there, they love bomb me with this really sad, pleading look on their faces. Hugs and all. The guilt starts there. They want forgiveness, but they won’t LET me forgive because they aren’t sorry, so instead I get saddled with guilt for not forgiving.”
I think this is a really good example of why NC is not just a good idea in terms of self-defense, but why it’s necessary to move on with our healing. These people can push buttons (and no one is better than family at that) and suddenly make everything about them. What they want out of the transaction.
When I was healing, I wrote hundred of letters to my ex. It was the way I processed. I sent a few of them, and they always included this at the end: “Do not write me back. This is not an invitation to communicate. There is nothing you can say that I want to hear.”
I am not suggesting this as a way for anyone else to get well. Quite the contrary. But the point I’m making was that I didn’t want this to be about him anymore than it already was. I was gradually working through a process of converting from a story in which he victimized me to a story in which he was a transient player in MY LIFE, a catalyst to some growth I hadn’t clarified yet, but it was about me, not him. And I know that anything that came from him would be the devil’s own temptation to think about what was going on with him, rather than what was going on with me.
I think that in healing we make great leaps forward in getting centered, learning our lessons, re-entering life, and then the universe tosses us another curve ball, another test in exactly the same lesson to see if we’ve got it yet.
And if we’re still not settled into the learning, we get to go through another lesson in exactly the same principal of healthy thinking and living.
What I hear going on in Skylar’s letters (and forgive me, Skylar, for talking about you in the third person, but you are sharing an experience that we’ve all gone through) is two things. One is that these people who are plaguing her are somehow exempt from the lessons she learned already, about not giving energy to people who drain her or make her feel bad. The other is the hope or desire or expectation that they can or will be something other than they are.
The first thing and the second thing may be caused by the same thing, some rule in our heads that our parents, our bosses, our spouses, our ministers etc. SHOULD match some idea we have about parents, bosses, spouses or ministers. And that idea of who they should be keeps us acting as though they were, and hoping that they’ll get into their roles.
So we are not responding to them as they are, but actually to our own disappointment and often rage that our expectations are frustrated. This, of course, bleeds out and becomes a factor in the relationship. And very likely, our method of communicating our frustrated needs illuminates more of their shortcomings compared to what we want them to be, and we are left even more frustrated and bereft.
If this sounds like I’m blaming us for the problem, I’m not. Or not exactly. The problem originates with the inadequacy of these people to perform in the roles they have in our lives. Whether they are good or bad people is not the point. The point is that they are bad for what we want them for.
My father was absolutely brilliant as a housebuilder. He served as his own architect and cabinet maker. His houses were jewels that are still treasured by the people who own them today and they speak of him with awe. So if his role in my life was to build my house, things would have gone swimmingly.
Unfortunately, as a child who was dependent on him for nurture, guidance and survival, I needed him to be something else. He was totally inadequate and I was harmed. I had no other choices at the time. (Imagine if children could go shopping for their own parents, how different many of us would be!)
And to this day, I carry feelings about that, because I spent my formative years in a kind of hell that I couldn’t escape. And it caused me to accept a lot of other hellish circumstances, because I was a skilled survivor in hell.
But ultimately, we have to recognize that other people are what they are, and that we are the only people that have true power over our lives. I had to get out of that crazy-house of my upbringing to get perspective on that. As Oxy said in her excellent essay yesterday, I was was caught up in the “particular” of the daily abuse and fear. But outside, in indepenent adulthood, my life challenge turned out to be to learn that I did have the power to choose and to direct my life into circumstances that weren’t neverending battles to protect myself, but safe and nurturing environments where I could use my gifts to do something meaningful for myself and the world.
I keep talking about making it about us, owning our own lives. Part of that, I think, is just getting a time-out from the people and situations that keep us on the defensive, that keep interrupting our attempts to live in peace with random boundary violations that we have to deal with. In a way, this comes down to a decision to stay out in an open field during a hailstorm or get under a tree.
Getting under the tree not only gives us a break from being battered by the ice pellets, but it also gives us time and space to think about what to do about hail storms in general. Especially if we’re standing under that tree looking out at a hailstorm that is probably never going to stop permanently, although it may slow down occasionally or even give way to a brief spell of sunshine.
This is what it is like dealing with people who are not what we want them to be. They are never going to stop being who they are, though occasionally they may seem to be more like our dreams of them. We can buy or build a strong enough umbrella to withstand the baseball-sized zingers they will occasionally throw. We can try to dig a tunnel through the field to the next tree, avoiding it but still being totally a victim to it. We can grab a piece of sunshine to get the hell out of there and not look back. We can even set up an ice company to get some profit of what is not going to change (like a lot of female stand-up comedians have done).
But one way or another we have to acknowledge what we’re dealing with. And doing that requires us to get out of the line of fire. So we can stop spending so much energy protecting ourselves, and start figuring out what we want this to mean to us. Or what our real options are in terms of having a relationship with these people.
Saying “I want to have a family” or “I want to love my parents” or “I want to respect my minister” or “I want to be a true partner to my spouse” — even though it may appear to be an unrealistic wish, given the circumstances — is actually a good and useful thing to think about. We are talking about our own story now, how we want our lives to be shaped.
We have the power to shape our lives to match our dreams, if we know what they are. But we do not have the power to change other people. So saying “I want my family to be people I can love” may be asking for a miracle. And we may have to ultimate get a bit more flexible in our definition of parent.
And to end this up on perhaps a wacky note, until I really got better a few years ago, I spent my life marrying or living with surrogate parents, or else I was the parent and they were the child. I was caught up in a drama of seeking the parenting that I lacked as a child — in particular the comforting and the guidance in learning to live. Nowadays, when I’m better, I realize that there is transient parenting taking place all over my life. People take a moment to reassure me when I express insecurity. I call up an “expert” friend when I’m facing a confusing situation. I have one person in particular that I see when I need to be reminded that anyone cares about me.
All of these relationships are both conscious and reciprocal. I’m open about what I want from them. They have things they want from me. We feel happy and smart about what we have found with each other.
And what about my father and my ex? Well, from the great distance that long-term NC offers, I know that I wanted things from them that they were unable to give. I can get mad about it, and sometimes do when I’m in my “child” self and grieving about my disappointments. But as a adult, with the beliefs I have as an adult, I recognize they were miscast in the roles I wanted to place them in. And there’s nothing I can do about that — either in changing history or changing them.
But it’s also true that I have a role in their lives. They saw me in a certain way that was related to their idea of how the players in their lives should be and behave. And for that reason, I don’t want contact with them. I don’t want to be dealing with their expectation or attitudes, which can trigger my disappointments once again. That is a drama from my past, and I’ve moved on.
Finally, as a lot of us have learned, if not about the sociopath then about family members, when we change it can have a suprising impact on the family dynamic. It doesn’t necessarily happen immediately, and there can be a whole lot of resistance first. But the impact of refusing to play the role we’re assigned and getting real about who we’re dealing with can be really healthy.
I hope this makes sense. And as usual, I apologize for the length of this post.
Great post Kathy!
Also, Sky, Keep in mind that people who “DO things for you” (“bend over backwards”) are sometimes like “Greeks bearing gifts” (The Trojan Horse “gift” that appears a “nice” thing, but has HIDDEN EVIL INSIDE)
Remember when I kept saying how my egg donor kept asking me if I needed money? I said “No” and she was upset and said to me “You wouldn’t take money from me if you DID need it would you?” I answered her truthfully and said “NO” and though I knew and I think she KNEW as well the REST of the UNSAID message was “I don’t trust you enough to take gifts because I know if you “give” me something you will later use that “gift” as a club to beat me over the head and try to guilt me with.”
That was the truth too, and even though I REFUSED TO TAKE “GIFTS” from her, she ACCUSED ME OF TRYING TO STEAL FROM HER! LOL Once in a rare truthful ranting, she admitted that she didn’t “mean that’ when she said it she was “ONLY trying to hurt you”—-but she didn’t “get it” when I told her that her TRYING TO HURT ME was MORE HURTFUL than what she said if she HAD BELIEVED IT. The fact that she accused me of something that she knew was a LIE was much much more hurtful, but she didn’t get it.
That was one of those “ah ha” moments in my coming to realize that even though she doesn’t fit the PCL-R “score” of even a low level psychopath she has a great many of the TRAITS and is just as emotionally abusive.
Remember a week or so ago when someone (can’t remember who CRS!@.......) said she had “LEARNED TO FUNCTION IN HER DYSFUNCTION?” That is soooo what I had learned to do Sky, and I think maybe many or most of us have done. (((hugs))) I know it hurts!