UPDATED FOR 2024. Last week, Lovefraud posted a letter from “Cybil,” I did not choose this guy. Here’s more of her experience about “things people say.”
I’ll call this, “Things people say, part II.” This is the other one that bugs me: “You’re paranoid.” I always have a good 24 hours of self-doubt before I realize they’re the ones that are nuts, not me. I know a lot more about what crazy stuff is out there in the world than your average, never-tangled-with-a-sociopath human does.
I just went to a seminar of a national expert on how domestic violence leads to murder, especially for women. Over and over he said, “Trust your instinct.” He told the audience to take women seriously when they have these stories (like those on this blog) and that if she is a co-worker you should elevate these stories to security for everyone’s safety because it could easily become a workplace shooting.
Paranoid
But continually I have had people in my life say I am paranoid since my ex came into my life. HE used to tell me I was paranoid. Crazy. Hysterical. Depressed. I wasn’t. I was living in a psychological and physical war zone. People who survive sociopaths have survived wars. The people on the blog are war-buddies.
The funny part is watching how the people who told me I was paranoid act when their blinders fall off. Like my parents, every few weeks another blinder falls off. When the death threats came in, they were in shock and they never said, “You told us so,” but they started taking things a bit more seriously and realized that when they told me I was paranoid that he was going to kill me (Well, yes, he hit you, he lied to you, he had an arrest record, but he’d never kill you. He’d get in trouble. He’s not that stupid), they were wrong. The sad part is watching them go back into denial as the “living with death threats” thing starts to become routine.
A strange event happened the other day. I called the police. My parents say: You know that was just a random thing that happened. You’re paranoid.
Really?
Responsibility
I am going to start telling people in my life, you are not allowed to tell me I’m paranoid or that I chose this guy. Not only is it horribly deflating, it goes to the heart of what I am healing from and getting stronger by.
When people tell me “You chose him,” they are telling me I have to take more responsibility, but taking more than my share of responsibility for what happened is what kept me in the bad relationship longer than I should have been. Because I started to believe it was my fault, because he told me it was my fault. If I could just fix me, then maybe he wouldn’t have to get so crazy and mean. It took me several years of dangerous experimenting with every “me” I could be, to realize it wasn’t ME. Yeah, I don’t have a problem taking responsibility and I don’t need help taking more.
When people tell me “You’re paranoid,” they are really questioning my instinct and telling me not to listen to it. I am a year and a half out from living with an abuser and a gaslighter; I am largely over the hyper-alert period. I know what I feel. Doubting that was also what kept me in the bad place: Maybe he is telling the truth, maybe he did do that for my own good, maybe I am being too judgmental, maybe I should give him another chance. Not doubting my instinct to walk out that last time was what let me walk out!!!!
I’m not going back there. Not even in a mental sense.
Learn more: Beyond betrayal — how to recover from the trauma
Lovefraud originally posted this story on Nov. 27, 2010.
The sociopathic MO in three easy steps
Dear Grandmother,
I pray that you and your grandchildren survive and thrive even with the black cloud that hangs over them and therefore you. It hurts to not be able to help those innocent children—the psychopaths spread their evil influence not only over the adults in their sphere but over everyone in the path of their pain.
I hope and pray that your daughter sees the “light” and wises up, but some people never do—for whatever reason.
There are so many good articles here about trauma bonding, like that little girl Elizabeth Smart that was kidnapped at age 13 by that self-styled preacher and his wife, or that Jaycee Dugard who was held captive for 19 years, even when they could they didn’t try to break free, it is called Stockholm Syndrome and it basically means that the person identifies with their abuser and they will fight to the death to protect the very person who abuses them. It is a survival defense mechanism and allows the abuse victim to mentally “survive” the abuse, it leaves them in pain, but they get used to it–sometimes it takes something traumatic for someone to break free of this strong “bonding.”
Keep on praying, and keep on loving, you can even do that from a distance. (((hugs)))) I think that book that Skylar recommended might be a good idea, buy the older boy several books for christmas and maybe your husband can take them to him and sort of “hide” that one in the middle of the stack. Have your husband whisper to him that you love him.
All you can do my love, is to pray and hope. Try to keep your cool. As someone (can’t see who right now) said above – have your husband tell the kids how much you love and miss them. Have him let them know that any time they need a safe place, you are always there for them.
It’s hard to watch kids under a rotten influence and hope they will turn out okay. Environment is a big factor, but remember that there are many people – including people who post on this website – who grow into good and decent adults, depite having had a spath parent or similar. I really think my own father may be a Narcissist (haven’t thought too deeply on it yet) but I don’t think I am and my brothers certainly are not. My father hit us and none of us have ever hit children. He was cruel and domineering and I don’t see that having been passed on either – and I was under his roof until I first married at 21!
Take comfort in the fact that although it is a worry, it is NOT a given. x
Thanks OXY.. not sure if its a blessing or a curse but my son is like his mama me… very sensitive and kind and caring hope he does not take any poop from people I should be training him well and he is very smart …..I do tell him that he needs to trust his gut in situations no one ever told me that the most I heard was your friends wont be there but your family will
Well, my friends have been here for me, my family were the ones they had to protect me from! Fortunately, I do have some GOOD friends who know the truth and are supportive of me. That number is small but the ones I have are GOOD as GOLD! That’s all I need.
I don’t know how old your son is Spirit, but you can tell him there is only ONE rule for life—It is the “do right” rule. If you do RIGHTLY then the rest of life will mostly take care of itself. Doesn’t mean that you won’t have problems, but if you do the RIGHT thing, it is the best you can (or anyone can) do. It is when we put the do right rule on hold that we get into trouble
We nave to follow the “treat ourselves right rule and treat others right” rule. If it means that we use kindness to people who treat us right as well, that is wonderful, or it may be that it is RIGHT for us to treat someone with NO CONTACT…so the “do right” rules is not always SIMPLE but if you get down to basics, and just follow that principle, life will be as good as it can get.
Fortunately many times our GUT does know what the right move is and we have to learn to listen to it. Teenagers have a time sometimes though in distinguishing between what the temptation-voice says and what the GUT SAYS-0–LOL yea, like 50 year old teenagers, and 63 year old teenagers, LOL
Spirt40 – trusting my gut is important, but i do know that my understanding of some of my gut signals is off base. I think we need to learn/ teach some new cardinal rules and processes:
1) there isn’t good in everyone
2) learn about and recognize drug/sex/alcohol/ gambling addictions in others; learn about N/S/P, and other personality disorders and mental illnesses. Learn to tell them apart, and immediately remove yourself form the lives of active addicts and people with personality disorders.
3) know that ‘it doesn’t feel good’ is the bottom line, ALWAYS.
2) we need an established, effective series of ‘trust gates’. If someone messes up at #1, they don’t get to #2, and gain exit from our lives.
3) when we recognize falsehood in a person, we need to boot them FAST.
4) and for those of us who are very sensitive and compassionate, we must always use those traits to protect ourselves, first.
Sounds great advice! like the 3 strikes rule and the education, habitation, vocation , oh and transportation! most important!
The day opens with a general feeling of malaise.
Yes, People say idiotic things after one of these encounters.
Refer to WHY WE DON”T KNOW ABOUT the disordered….
And to the need that people in general, especially men seem to have to “One up” and justify themselves at the expense of whoever they are talking to. And I think when it comes to this, there is a bit of that that reassures the people who say the silly things that they are ok and not potentially vulnerable to the same because they are smarter and make better choices…etc.
I wonder about that. I think there are more perpetrators than the uninitiated realize. Can bad people do good things, yes, they can. See the article. Their motivations may be less than altruistic and it may in fact be accidental, but they can.
It comes down to gut. And once you know, you know. And that is all there is.
It ain’t easy, but it ain’t all bad either because there are others than the disordered who are at least mean and insulting if not dangerous. regardless of what you call them.
Place trust carefully be loving and kind and polite, but don’t over invest too fast and take time to do the homework that tells you who someone REALLY is.
Whatever that takes…
Dear Sprit and Onesy,
I agree, I keep forgetting the “vocation” one when I try to remember the 4-tions Matt uses. I just remember it means JOB. LOL CRS! Yes to all of those!
Spirit, I don’t do the 3-strikes rule, I do the ONE strike rule for adults. LIE TO ME ONE TIME—As Lady McBeth said, “OUT, damn spot!” Why do I need anyone who will lie to me once in my life to get another chance to lie to me twice. And I’m not talking about the “social lies” of “Oh, this pie you worked so hard on is so ‘interesting” tasting.” (NO! it is NOT interesting, it tastes like boiled cat carp, but I don’t want to hurt your feelings!) I’m talking about real honest to gosh LIES….things meant to keep you from knowing the ugly truth. Or as Bill Clinton said “NO! I did not have sex with THAT WOMAN!” LOL
It only takes me ONE TIME of someone LYING to me to realize I can’t trust them. Now, depending on the situation I may confront them about it…if they acknowledge their lie, try to make amends etc. I might give them another chance but it will take a LONG TIME before they ever get through “gate number 2” as Onesy said. I have pushed people OUT OF THE INNER SANCTUM of my circle trust but those people will never get back in. They have BETRAYED me because I let them in the first place without checking them out and so I made excuses of why I let them stay and use and abuse me for so long.
NO MORE! Sorry about that bye bye! Have a nice life! So long, don’t bother to call or write! Don’t expect a Christmas card or a mention in my will, the jig is up, I’ve seen the light, I’ve seen the truth! NC!
silver – i only have a moment, but i wanted to check that you got my skype phone message.
I’ll be back later. sending you a big hug.
best, one step
Cybil, thanks for posting this important observation and congratulations to you for your growing sensitivity to disrespect.
Whenever anyone offers a disparaging comment on your feelings or conclusions, they are being disrespectful. They don’t walk in your shoes or live with your history or your inner wisdom. In fact, what they are saying really has very little to do with you.
They are actually communicating their own fear of trusting themselves. Why they fear self-trust is a big, complicated issue related to socialization to adapt to external controls. But when someone like you finally breaks out of that socialization and realizes that you are your own best authority, you intimidate them. And they will try to bust you down to size by disparaging your comments.
(Sociopaths do this too. Their reasons are to separate us from our centers, so that we are more vulnerable to their demands on us. But really, it doesn’t matter whether it’s our “caring” family and friends, or a predator trying to con us. The technique is the same. The disrespect is the same. And it’s equally important to step back and try to figure out what’s going on with this person, and what they get out of breaking us down.)
That doesn’t mean that we know everything, or that even our inner instincts are always 100 percent correct. They are the best source of guidance we have. But sometimes, we do get some feedback that is useful or enlightening. The issue is whether it’s respectful feedback or denigration.
How can you tell the difference? It’s actually pretty easy. Respectful feedback is offered, and you get the opportunity to agree to listen. An example: you say, “This person makes me uncomfortable and I don’t want to have anything to do with him.” The other person may say to you something like this: “I understand why you feel that way about him, but I think you’re wrong. Can I tell you why?” Or “When you talk like that, it makes me concerned about you. Is it all right if I tell you why?”
I know this all sounds like therapist-speak, and maybe too formal for everyday chat. But you get the idea. People who make unsolicited comments about your feelings and thought processes are violating your boundaries.
However if they offer to give you feedback on what you said, and they give you the choice of hearing it or not hearing it, that’s different. The choice is totally up to you.
If you’re not willing to hear it, you can just say, “I understand you have issues about what I said, but it’s not open for discussion. I’m comfortable with what I said, and I’m not looking for reasons to change my mind.” Or, “You have your opinions. I have mine. Let’s agree to disagree.” Or just, “Back off.” And of course, all those things also work for people who offer unsolicited comments too, like “you’re paranoid.”
However, the difficult truth is that the more comfortable you become with being your own source — of wisdom, self-validation, objective logic, sense of right and wrong, etc. — the more distance you will discover from about 90 percent of the population. If you look around you, you will see two basic types of people who cannot think like you are now. One are the people who are dependent on the approval of their families or family-like groups. The others are people who have internalized rule-punishment constructs so thoroughly that they regard anyone who doesn’t conform as dangerous or bad.
This is what you are dealing with. And the more that you grow up, intellectually and emotionally, the more independent you become, the more you are going to face resistance to your unique perspectives and feelings. And then, you face a whole new level of learning. Which is how to be kind to people to are not ready to think like you, and recognize that leadership requires some deftness and discretion. You can’t just dump on them, and expect them to understand you. In fact, you can’t expect understanding at all, except from the relatively rare person who is also emotionally and intellectually independent. What you can hope for, instead, is that you communicate effectively in ways that they understand, giving them little peeks into the way you think that may encourage them to have a few new thoughts of their own.
So rather than saying, “He makes me uncomfortable and I don’t want have anything to do with him,” it might be more effective to say, “You know, when he said that he’s got a Ph.D. in computer sciences and then said he has no money and is between jobs, it made me wonder about him. I may change my mind, but right now I don’t think I trust him.”
That kind of communication is really friendly to other people. You’re sharing your thought process. You’re not judging anyone. You’re not asking anyone to agree with you. Rather, you are contributing facts to the conversation that lift it to the logical level, rather than pure feelings. If someone comes back with “but I really like him” or “you’re just being paranoid” or “he’s new here and I think we should be willing to help him,” it’s just their opinions.
But, by sharing your logic and your feelings (including the fact that you are not vulnerable to their opinions), you have done something important. You’ve shown them a different way to think and feel. Your behavior is challenging their “rules.” Even if you find disrespect and resistance initially, you may be surprised how this works out over time.
And if you need any external validation, here’s some from me. You’re doing great. Your post is all about how well you’re doing. You’re far down the path of turning a disaster into triumph. Congratulations!
Kathy