UPDATED FOR 2024. Last week, Lovefraud posted a letter from “Cybil,” I did not choose this guy. Here’s more of her experience about “things people say.”
I’ll call this, “Things people say, part II.” This is the other one that bugs me: “You’re paranoid.” I always have a good 24 hours of self-doubt before I realize they’re the ones that are nuts, not me. I know a lot more about what crazy stuff is out there in the world than your average, never-tangled-with-a-sociopath human does.
I just went to a seminar of a national expert on how domestic violence leads to murder, especially for women. Over and over he said, “Trust your instinct.” He told the audience to take women seriously when they have these stories (like those on this blog) and that if she is a co-worker you should elevate these stories to security for everyone’s safety because it could easily become a workplace shooting.
Paranoid
But continually I have had people in my life say I am paranoid since my ex came into my life. HE used to tell me I was paranoid. Crazy. Hysterical. Depressed. I wasn’t. I was living in a psychological and physical war zone. People who survive sociopaths have survived wars. The people on the blog are war-buddies.
The funny part is watching how the people who told me I was paranoid act when their blinders fall off. Like my parents, every few weeks another blinder falls off. When the death threats came in, they were in shock and they never said, “You told us so,” but they started taking things a bit more seriously and realized that when they told me I was paranoid that he was going to kill me (Well, yes, he hit you, he lied to you, he had an arrest record, but he’d never kill you. He’d get in trouble. He’s not that stupid), they were wrong. The sad part is watching them go back into denial as the “living with death threats” thing starts to become routine.
A strange event happened the other day. I called the police. My parents say: You know that was just a random thing that happened. You’re paranoid.
Really?
Responsibility
I am going to start telling people in my life, you are not allowed to tell me I’m paranoid or that I chose this guy. Not only is it horribly deflating, it goes to the heart of what I am healing from and getting stronger by.
When people tell me “You chose him,” they are telling me I have to take more responsibility, but taking more than my share of responsibility for what happened is what kept me in the bad relationship longer than I should have been. Because I started to believe it was my fault, because he told me it was my fault. If I could just fix me, then maybe he wouldn’t have to get so crazy and mean. It took me several years of dangerous experimenting with every “me” I could be, to realize it wasn’t ME. Yeah, I don’t have a problem taking responsibility and I don’t need help taking more.
When people tell me “You’re paranoid,” they are really questioning my instinct and telling me not to listen to it. I am a year and a half out from living with an abuser and a gaslighter; I am largely over the hyper-alert period. I know what I feel. Doubting that was also what kept me in the bad place: Maybe he is telling the truth, maybe he did do that for my own good, maybe I am being too judgmental, maybe I should give him another chance. Not doubting my instinct to walk out that last time was what let me walk out!!!!
I’m not going back there. Not even in a mental sense.
Learn more: Beyond betrayal — how to recover from the trauma
Lovefraud originally posted this story on Nov. 27, 2010.
The sociopathic MO in three easy steps
Hi Gem, how are you doing?
Boundaries are a ongoing creation. Like Skylar, I would say that I have crappy boundaries too. But they’re getting better all the time.
Kathy
Dear Kathy, I won’t boink you for that one, but “go ye and sin no more” and keep your chin up….I’m sorry for that child and sorry for the woman who was his surrogate womb. I hope that she wises up soon and kicks the creep out of her life!
I’m starting to relax a bit about the upcoming parole hearing now that I’ve done all I can possibly do, and the rest is up to God and the parole board, but I do feel confident that he won’t be getting out THIS time—but nothing is over til the “fat lady sings!” So I’ve been concentrating on myself and my new “life plan” of nutrition (weight loss) and low sodium nutritional changes! Feeling better already with the 21 pounds lost (but more to go).
Had a good day today and rode to town with the hired hand to take some cattle to the live stock auction and see a few faces besides mine in the mirror!
The dog no longer smells like skunk!!!! That was a bad one, but son D found the skunk’s burrow just outside the “yard” in the woods, and set the live trap near it—if that doesn’t work will pick up some stuff to put in the burrow to kill it next time we go to town in a day or two! Worst part is there are quite a few RABID skunks in this area, and they can actually carry the disease and not immediately die from it so don’t need the critter in my yard where the dog is. I’m on “kill mode” where the skunk is invading my territory!
At LEAST THIS SKUNK HAS 4 FEET NOT TWO AND IT’S NOT ILLEGAL TO KILL IT! LOL Right now the score is SKUNK-1–Oxy & dog-ZERO, but I won’t give up til I win!
The poor dog thinks I was punishing him though with all the baths (did find a recipe to get the stink off him that worked and wasn’t too bad for me but the poor dog thinks I was being mean to him, so he is slithering around here looking pitiful with his tail between his legs if I look at him!) LOL
Silly thing is, that having the dog sprayed by the skunk (which is bad enough) and other “life events” are just things to laugh about now! In the past with the stress load so heavy that type of thing would have been the LAST STRAW to send me over the edge into gloom. It is amazing just how little there is that is a “big deal” any more—even when things go wrong, flat tires, or whatever happens it is just so much easier to cope with when your mind is not messed up with all the gloom and doom of dealing with the UNNECESSARY CARP that the psychopaths dish out!
There’s no one here to tell me how stupid I am or how they don’t like this or that about me, or how worthless I am, or to just be “tacky” to me—and the best part is that I’m not beating up on myself! I can just go about my day enjoying whatever happens and taking it in stride. Wish I had realized how great life is without the psychopaths a long time ago! But I didn’t realize it back then, but I DO NOW! I know you do too!
So meditate and breathe—air free of other people’s drama-rama! Just peace and calm and LIFE! (((hugs))) Even if it smells a bit like skunk at times, that’s okay cause soap and water and peroxide will wash it off! NOTHING washes off the stink of the psychopaths except DISTANCE AND TIME!
Gem,
I know I should feel offended when people touch me inappropriately. Strangers will hug me, sometimes men I don’t know, will put their hands on my thigh and pretend they are being friendly. I know I should be offended. but I don’t FEEL offended. That’s why I know I have no boundaries.
Even here on LF, Adams Rib noticed when people were giving me the potted plant treatment, but I didn’t notice it, until she pointed it out.
If you’ve ever seen the film, “I, psychopath” with Sam Vaknin, apparantly, he is very offensive. My BF, was shocked at how he treated the filmmaker. Personally, it didn’t really offend me at all.
I think I’m this way because my parents were subtle narcissists who made me think that I had no rights. I’m not a human being only my little sister is. I have never been able to ask for anything from them or anyone else.
It sucks, I think, I would like to have boundaries, so instead of feeling boundaries I try to learn when I should have them because it doesn’t come naturally to me.
In some ways, it is helpful because I don’t react emotionally to this type of offense. But on the other hand, it’s why I was able to stay with a RAGING Psychopath and not notice a thing.
There is one place where my parents did teach me boundaries: MONEY.
OMG, I have HUGE boundaries with my MONEY. My parents don’t have any other values to teach, but they taught that well. It took a long time for my exP to leach my money out of me and he had to do it really slowly. It was only when he turned up the heat too fast, that I noticed, “HEY! He’s after my money!”
Do you know how to boil a frog? Slowly, they won’t even notice that the water is getting hotter.
kathy – you said: ‘But if I didn’t, I might forget how it felt to be “disappeared” by him. Or treated as though any personal needs I had were just tedious drags on him.’
i remember, many years ago, the first time i realized i didn’t need anger to set boundaries, or fear to keep them.
Might be very nice to forget these things, and not need those memories to protect your well being.
sky – what you said about your boundaries makes sense to me. and it this lack of boundaries that is probably the other side of the coin of your research interest in spaths/ n.
can you find a professional to help you make some boundaries? even if you don’t ‘feel’ them, you can make a list of what’s appropriate and just stick to it and see how that goes. seems like you are good at feedback loops – so you would know over time if it was working for you.
do you notice when other’s boundaries are being transgressed in front of you? you see it here – but do you notice it in daily life?
Dear Sky,
That above post about your “no boundaries” is one of the best posts I think you ever made! Good for you. I think many of us, not just you, have had trouble setting boundaries because we were not allowed to have any as youngsters, or opinions or feelings, or needs.
I too have good monetary boundaries (my egg donor was a CPA) and my grandparents were very poor during the depression, even my physician grandfather was broke during the depression because his patients couldn’t pay. I watch my money like a hawk! Actually, that is why I have anything at all today. BUT, I was always able to spend money on OTHERS but felt guilty if I spent money for me, even for necessary things.
Now I am getting better about spending money for MYSELF but not throwing it away but just buying things I NEED that formerly I would have done without. I bought some hearing aids not too long ago. I am profoundly deaf and have been for years, and Hearing aids are VERY expensive, but I broke down and bought them and didn’t look back. Sure, I could have gone without them, I am actually quite good at lip reading and use the captions on the TV when I watch it, but I’m taking care of MYSELF now.
I think One’s idea about maybe seeing if you can get some professional help about learning to set boundaries. I remember when I first started to try to set them with egg donor and she REBELLED at the very Idea I would SET A BOUNDARY for her! LOL Then my “friend” who stole from me and I CAUGHT HER IN THE ACT, and I was so afraid I would UPSET HER!!! DUH!!! Why should I be afraid to upset a THIEF!?!!!! But after a 2-day crying jag, I set a boundary! Then before long she crossed it again, and I set it higher, then quickly after that, went NC with her! Now, am so glad I learned that I HAVE BOUNDARIES TO PROTECT ME from those who would abuse me. I don’t need to worry about offending people who are THIEVES for goodness sakes.
I try not to “take offense” at everyone who may be impolite in some way or other, or are insensitive, but at the same time, when people come out and OPENLY DISRESPECT ME, or abuse me. I care about their opinion WHY? I either confront them if it is important, or ignore them if it isn’t. Most of the time it isn’t worth it to confront them, just avoid them in the future. Or as a friend once told me “give them a good case of leaving them alone”
Learning about boundaries and that we have a RIGHT to them is a process, but it is one that I think is WELL WORTH the effort! (((hugs))))
One,
it’s hard to say. I sometimes notice it, but if I miss it, how would I know that I didn’t notice it.
I also might offend people because I’m very straight forward. But, don’t misunderstand, it’s not like I don’t have social skills or empathy for others, it’s just the opposite, my parents taught me to only care about others, but not myself.
So like, when I saw a woman being beaten on the street by her husband and my brother in law the cop with a gun and my sister who also packs, wouldn’t even call the police, I was getting ready to step in and stop him myself. Damn the consequences. But it shamed my BIL enough to say, “Oh, oookkayy, I’ll do it.”
and I fall for the pity ploy all the time…and go into rescuer mode.
But the examples that Kathy posted are perfect examples of stuff that would have gone over my head. Actually, I’ll have to print out that bit and study it because I’m having a hard time internalizing it.
But you hit it right on the head, One, that is a big part of the reason I have to immerse myself in this, because I know that I’m vulnerable.
Oxy,
thanks for your kind words.
I don’t think I even learned what boundaries were until I got to LF. I might have also read about them on another site about narcissists. If I recall, it said, “you know you are dealing with a narcissist if they don’t respect boundaries.” But touching is the only obvious boundary that I can see. Emotional ones go over my head sometimes. I can tell when someone is being mean, if they are obvious about it, but the subtle stuff…well I’m getting better at seeing it, but not really feeling it.
What happened when you caught your friend in the act stealing? I mean, what did she say? Was her hand literally “in the cookie jar?” Stuff like that I have boundaries on because it’s like money.
Dear Sky,
We are ALL vulnerable, and the pity ploy is a big one that abusers use to “HOOK US IN” and I tend to fall for it as well….always have.
Have you ever gone to a al anon or co-dependents meeting? I hate the term “co-dependent” I prefer “enabler” but it is pretty much the same thing—falling for the pity ploy (read what I wrote to Renewed hope) and then doing for the other person (what they should be doing for themselves) and then becoming angry at them for not learning or profiting from our work/giving, and them becoming angry at us because we didn’t do for them the way they wanted us to etc. and always 100% of the time, both parties get angry at each other.
I THOUGHT I was not enabling others by trying to “help” them (big example is my son C) but I should never have tried to “help” him. I had expectations of him—be 100% honest with me and follow the rules, respect my boundaries—and he lied, which is a crossing of my boundary about lies. I kicked him out of my house. I no longer trust him, and won’t trust him again.
Of course HIS TAKE on the whole thing is that his mother was a controlling witch by making such rules…well, my house, my rules. But he is 40 years old so he is responsible for the consequences of his poor financial decisions and when the time comes he is in a hole, without a vehicle, or a place to live, he is not welcome back here. He is responsible for his own support, and though I wanted to “help” my son, I wasn’t doing him any favors by making it easier for him to save money so he could then go throw it into his video game addiction. He chose the video game addiction to being truthful with me, and with keeping the agreement he made in order to come back here to live. If I had “forgiven” his lie, or excused it or overlooked it, I would not have done anything but ENABLE HIM to continue to make bad decisions and NOT have the consequences of them.
It’s sort of like housebreaking a dog, if you let the dog chit in the floor and never show it your displeasure, then you have no right to get mad at the dog for not going out side to do its business. As long as you clean up the dog crap off the floor without saying anything to the dog it isn’t going to learn…but what happens most of the time was I would clean it up and clean it up and clean it up and then one day I would explode and rage on the dog…that doesn’t work either. But, that is what enabling or “co-dependence” leads to. I’m unhappy and so is the dog and the floor is still covered with dog poo. Doesn’t work, never will.
People are just as “trainable” as dogs, and they will behave however you expect them to behave and allow them to behave. I now have rules for how people behave toward me. That is having boundaires.
If people touch you and you don’t appreciate this, just step back or reach and remove their hands and look them square in the eye, and say “I really don’t appreciate it when you_____ me” Or even just stiffen up and look them in the eye with what I call my “Sister superior” look that says “I don’t like to be hugged” (or what ever) If that doesn’t work, say it in clear and calm but FIRM words.
Some people have to be TOLD “in no uncertain terms” that you don’t like their behavior.
sky – you have read the betrayal bond, right?
Also, Codependent No More by melody Beattie, might help a lot.
and of course you are right – if you didn’t know you wouldn’t know. 😉