By | December 16, 2009 196 Comments

LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: Trying to expose the sociopath made matters worse for me

Editor’s note: Lovefraud received the following from a reader who we’ll refer to as “Tanya.”

I was 35 when I met my sociopath we’ll call him Dave. I was in a top twenty graduate business program a magnet for narcissists and sociopaths, by the way! A culture that so prizes appearances, financial accumulation, and power must seem irresistible to people with those disorders.

Dave seemed so great at first attentive, interesting, intelligent, open, honest, fun. My friends warned that he was too flirty but I only took that as a sign that he was desirable and, hey, I won him over when others had failed.

We were off and on for a few months the usual drama of dating a pure sociopath took its toll right away. He did very scary things early on, like drink and drive, show up at my door in the middle of the night, call a dozen times a night, etc. etc. In the alcoholic daze that is your typical business school culture, his behavior didn’t stand out as much as it might in real life but it really should have at the time.

Finally we broke it off completely. Then one night I got a call from him he was in Brazil on holiday (he lived there for a few years before coming to Business School) and he was calling to tell me that he was engaged to a girl he’d met there. He put her on the phone so that she could be reassured that he was no longer involved with me. I thought it was crazy, but in my own attempts to CONTROL the crazy (always the first mistake), I took it upon myself to tell his friends at school about the call. I framed it like “Congratulate Dave! He tells me he’s engaged!” He was furious with me when he came back and his friends no doubt thought I was insane.

Later, his “fiance” called me a few times trying to find him. I “googled” her name on my computer— again in an attempt to control the crazy and found that he had been emailing her from my computer during the time we were dating. Then I found emails he had sent to a sex tourism site called Club Hombre. Over the previous two or three years, he had posted HUNDREDS of emails to this site, explaining his sexual exploits with prostitutes all over the world. His “fiance” was a prostitute. On the boards, he talked a lot about having unprotected sex with prostitutes in Rio and Turkey (both high HIV areas).

I was so petrified. I went to the school clinic and explained my situation. The nurse told me that I had a one in thirty two chance of having HIV and I had to wait a week for test results to come back (thankfully, negative). During that week I went to my school counselor (a 27 year old kid new on the job) and tried to explain my situation. I brought in print-outs of the postings Dave had made to the sex site, and a note from the clinic explaining the risks he had exposed me to. I wanted to somehow get this guy on record before he put other women in our school at risk, even if it meant humiliating myself. The counselor was skeptical. He asked me if I wanted to file a restraining order and I said “no”. I thought that would only make things worse.

As per procedure, he had to bring Dave in as well. When he asked Dave if HE wanted to file a restraining order, Dave said “yes”! So, as a reward for my efforts to work within the system, I got a restraining order filed against ME for harassing DAVE. One of the worst days of my life.

That was three years ago, and I still definitely bear the scars of the experience. I try to put the details out of my mind and, even as I read this, I can’t believe it happened.

I do my best to not fault myself for getting involved in the first place. As so many others on your site have said, I was behaving normally in an abnormal situation. What I DO fault myself for is trying to CONTROL the crazy. Every time I tried to control it and expose him, I only made things worse for myself. The true trauma wasn’t the stuff that happened between me and him, but the stuff that happened when I tried to expose him to others. It was so awful to see how easily sociopaths can bend the system to their will. Before then, I believed I lived in a just, fair world and that I could trust the system to protect me when I needed it. After Dave, I know now that I have to protect MYSELF.

When I’m philosophical about it, I just think that it’s only human to want to believe that we live in an ordered, just world. We want to believe it so much that we ignore the disorder and unfairness RIGHT IN FRONT OF US, and this blind spot is where the sociopath functions. I’m so thankful that I emerged with much less damage than some others. I only wish that there was a way to constructively deal with this to raise awareness about sociopathy in the same way that people raise awareness about cancer or drug abuse.

Thank you again for your site it was cathartic to share my story.

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First ”“ thank you for sharing your story. I fully understand the pain you endured trying to “out” the psychopath. But three years out and much shame later, I do not agree with your conclusion.
It is not moral to expose someone to deadly diseases. By cheating on you- he was repeatedly pulling a trigger, playing with your life, your fertility and definitely your sanity. There’s something wrong with counselors who ask the perp if they want to file a restraining order against the victim. The naïve counselor is to blame, not you.
Is it worth it to expose the psycho? Not always, but that decision is up to the victim. Sometimes it’s better to lose your home, money and reputation to save your life and sanity. But sometimes, with legal help, we can protect our assets and out a psycho.
We do not know what our story teaches others, how it effects what they do in the future. Staying silent at all costs, out of fear of the psycho sometimes is wise, but not always. The key is responding in the manner we want, after serious reflection and review of our particular situation.
Others disbelief and shaming of us, is a reflection of their ignorance about psychopathy- that’s all.
That said, I do believe no contact makes them suffer unlike most any other punishment.



Yes I really relate to that experience. I went through a phase of actually following him on-line and watching what he was doing! (chatting explicitly to other women in a sleazy sexual way duh!!) He is foreign and does not speak my language but good old me translated it all with the help of google translate!

I think the forum was a prostitute haven where they exchange support and tips etc. It chilled my blood and I actually had to stop myself from getting more and more shocked by reading through it every evening. It was actually affecting my recovery. I don’t do it anymore.

I have 5 months no contact. No following him. I won’t allow myself bring him to court. He is far too sleazy, dangerous and I feel it in my belly he could turn the tables on me, and frankly my life is more precious than getting even with that moron. I was driven demented from trying to control crazy, I could feel my sanity slipping down the drain as the obsession to expose him took hold. I resisted the temptation.

Now something different is happening… I wake up each day, less scared than before , I feel closer and closer to an amazing thing and that is I ESCAPED! ….and I’m grateful! I can’t feel full on happy yet, but I can smell it around the corner IF I manage to let go let go….He is not worthy of my exposing him, in all likelihood it might help him…and I don’t want to lift one finger for him again!

I just hope he does not sense my freedom and that I am feeling happier, more dignified….because if he came back I would be frightened. I think sufficiently to tell him the 3 words I have left for him “GO TO HELL”

Thanks Tanya

Ox Drover

Dear Tanya,

I was just discussing with a professional (mental health( yesterday about what happens to “whistle blowers” who try to point out that there is someone in a group (ususally a P) doing bad things that can and do IMPACT BADLY on other people’s lives.

You took the high road and did what any HONEST PERSON would do, and YOU GOT PUNISHED FOR BEING HONEST. Both my mental health professional and I (retired advnaced practice nurse( have both STOOOD UP–only to get knocked down, we have also occsaionally stood up and helped, but more times we have realized that it isn’t any use setting ourseves up to be burned at the stake like Joan of Arc.

I have been watching a series on TV called the “Good wife” a middle aged attorney (just starting out in her career as a junion associate at a big firm with lots of ETHICAL issues. Her P husband was a big state attorney who had an affiar publicly revealed, and also convicted of kick backs and is in prison.

The show is good and I like it because of the ETHICAL questions that come up and the RESULTS, which are not always “winners” for the good guys, and not always losers either, but a GOOD show I thiink.

I think most of us have struggled with the “to out him” or “No0 to out?” Well, I UNSUCCESSFULLY outed a few, and got punished for doing it. But at the same time I didn’t always stand up to be counterd, I am not frustrated about any of this any more, I did the best I coujld do at tyhe time I did it so I am not beating myself up about those choices in the past. I am trying to be more understanding of those that don’t choose to out one, but I do know that all it takes for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing.


Thankyou for sharing your story … that must have been so horrible to live through.

It is a tricky question whether to out them or not. Usually they only let the mask slip in front of one person so everyone else thinks they are marvellous and wonderful! When you add to that the crazy behaviours we end up exhibiting after prolonged contact with them and the character assasination they perpetrate on us to friends it’s no surprise that people don;t believe what we say. The other factor is people don;t want to believe we have wolves in our midst – it ruins their carefully constructed worldview – we only have to look at how rape victims are perceived to have confirmation of Just World Theory.

Perhaps in the end no contact speaks louder than any lecture we could give on sociopathy – the fact that we stay far from evil might give people an indication that something is amiss. Who knows?

I tried to out him to a neighbour we both knew and he put his hands up and said “I don;t want to know the details” – nice! He also said the P had said things about me but wouldn;t disclose what they were – I wanted to shout at him “This is not a normal breakup and you can;t trust a word he says – he’s sick!” But what is the point?

It’s hard enough to recover from the pain of it without making another rod for my own back. Stephen Covey talks about limiting your efforts to your own Circle of Influence – those who are receptive to what you have to say rather than the brainwashed gimps associated with the P. I will educate in other ways and to people who actually are open to understanding – to do otherwise would be a repeat of the relationship – a futile exercise in banging my head against a wall and getting nowhere!
Have a fab day everyone and laugh at least twenty times today!~

Elizabeth Conley

“What I DO fault myself for is trying to CONTROL the crazy. Every time I tried to control it and expose him, I only made things worse for myself. The true trauma wasn’t the stuff that happened between me and him, but the stuff that happened when I tried to expose him to others. It was so awful to see how easily sociopaths can bend the system to their will. Before then, I believed I lived in a just, fair world and that I could trust the system to protect me when I needed it. After Dave, I know now that I have to protect MYSELF.”

This is what I’ve found as well. My situation wasn’t even half as bad as yours, but I learned the same lesson.

Never try to out a cluster B. Just go no contact. They will still attach your character a bit, but that’s nothing compared to what they do if they feel threatened by you.

We aren’t like them, and we aren’t able to employ the same depraved tactics they are. Better to just walk away.

sherry winter

I so understand this. I have been labeled a trouble maker, because I want to make sure my ex s/p doesn’t use his government job any more as a feeding ground for other women.

I only fell prey to him because I believed every one at work what a faithful husband he’d been to his first wife who passed away… only to find out he’d had at any given time, half the women under his authority either in bed with him, or on the way.

I was away for a little over a year on a rotation at work, and now I am looking at going back in January.

I’m going back into an environment that already broke me emotionally before. To a place where the person who abused me and knows what buttons to push, has a position of honor. To a place where the boss who I used to think of like family, has made it clear he thinks I imagined the abuse. To a place the place where the CIO told me it was my own fault because I trusted what my co-workers said of him instead of my own gut feelings. To a place that I have been threatened more then once and by more then one person, that I could lose my job if I foolishly enlighten my co-workers gross misconceptions of him so they do not repeat their mistakes of the past with me and put some other poor soul in harms way.

Let’s not forget the co-worker that I caught him red handed with when we were still dating, and is now hostile towards me because she thinks I broke her up with him by tattling on them. And btw, I even got in trouble for telling on them, though he was her lead worker, and it was against rules!

My attempts to help myself seem to all come out at a dead end, and I have no power in and of myself to change the outcome. It makes me feel like a sitting duck… like a victim all over again.

I am very scared. I am scared, and for good reason. But even telling myself to just hide in my cubical and not say a word to any one, isn’t convincing. I know myself too well. One day someone will come up and ask how I’m feeling, and I will tell them that and much more. It’s a bomb waiting to go off.


This is probably one of the most important issues I am dealing with right now. Do I out him or not?!?! I’ve stayed strong with the no contact and do believe it’s the best way to go, but still feel this need to out him. I am the only one that got close enough to know the ugly truth of him. All the drugs, the promiscuity. Maybe his wife would like to know that he sits at home sometimes and drinks and snorts lines until he has to pick his 9 year olds up from school! Or where he keeps the cocaine in the house…in his cufflink boxes. Maybe she would like to know about the 19 year old he was cheating on me with..(he’s 41.) Or any of the other girls that I found out about after the fact. Maybe his parents would like to know the truth about their golden child?? Maybe his ramp managing job at LAX would like to know that he comes to work high all the time. God there are so many things that I know I could destroy him with. And he would deserve it. I so want to out him. This man put my health at risk! This man lied and manipulated. This man puts his kids and the lives of passengers at risk! Why shouldn’t I out him????? He doesn’t care about me or anybody else, why should I pretend that I don’t know what I know and bite my tongue? I bit my tongue for 4 years! Look where it got me. But the only thing I worry about is him coming after me if I call his wife and tell her the truth. I guess that’s the only reason I’ve kept quiet. I don’t think my life is worth ratting him out. Believe me, I’ve given this much thought. It drives me to the edge of insanity sometimes. Everyone says, karma will get him!! Well maybe I’M his karma!!!! Anyone ever thought of that?? Maybe I’m the one that’s supposed to put him in his place. I’ve given this much thought. I have ways of outing him that would keep me safe. Or that would not make him suspect it was me. We used to take an annual vacation to Miama every spring. Well, we had already booked our condo for the upcoming year. I know he will still go. Probably have another woman in the bed that we once shared. But I know that a week in Miami is a week fueled with cocaine. I’d like to call his work annonymously, this upcoming March, and tell them that I know that this man who is going to baord the plane, who is also their employee, is going to be high as a kite. And if you have any doubts?? Have him pee in a cup. He’s your employee right?? You have every right to ask him to if you suspect anything. I can guarantee that it will come back positive! But I would only be able to tell them what I know if they can GUARANTEE me that they will keep my side of the story annonymous and deny that someone ratted him out. I think this is the only way I can out him for anything without him thinking I had anything to do with it. Then he’ll lose his job and maybe his world will finally come crashing down. He’ll lose his job, have to explain to the family why, and good luck getting another job once you’ve been fired for drug use! I just don’t think it’s fair that he continues to live his life and put other people’s in jeopardy. And he’ll continue to. He deosn’t have a conscious. He deserves what he gets. I’m working on me right now and that’s all that’s important. But I can’t get over this desire and urge to out him. Maybe it will pass by the time March comes around. Or maybe I’ll just chicken out. But I do feel that his work should be notified. This man is operating the ramp for a major airline completely drugged up and sometimes going for days without sleeping. Would you want to get on a plane that was under his control??? I’m trying to figure out if I’m doing the right thing or just trying to get revenge. I guess that’s something that I will have to figure out for myself.

And from the orignial post…. “I only wish that there was a way to constructively deal with this to raise awareness about sociopathy in the same way that people raise awareness about cancer or drug abuse.”

I couldn’t agree with this more. This personality type needs to be exposed and maybe if people were aware before they got involved, and some of us wouldn’t be where we are now. I think my sister and some friends are sick of hearing about the dangers of a sociopath. They roll their eyes at me and look at me like I’m nutts. But they just don’t know!! I just repsond that they don’t understand what I’ve been through and hopefully they don’t ever have to experience what I’ve been through. They just don’t get it that it’s not your run of the mill, didn’t work out, end of a relationship and move on…lol…if it were only that simple. So thank you for this post today.


Hi Amber,
I’ve wrestled with this issue also–to out him or not…I tried a “mini-outing” and it completely backfired…he is a clinical psychologist and I made the mistake of trying to talk confidentially with a casual friend of his (and I thought mine also) also a psychologist.

Result? I was labeled crazy and projecting etc etc…and he went ballistic.

What I wrestle with now is knowing he’s gay and the last 3 wives do not know that…should I tell them? Probably not, but for #3 she might get some insight into why he never wanted to have sex with her. (she’s the only one who lives in CA, the only 1 I know how to contact)

He never wanted sex with me, except in the beginning of the relationship. He blamed me for our lack of sex life, even after admitting he’s gay. lol

He’s moved across country now and is on Match and eHarmony looking for a new relationship. I hope the women he meets are somehow more savvy and don’t follow through on a relationship.

He’s a textbook N/P dressed in transpersonal psychology. Too much stuff happened to even begin to recount. I feel lucky he did not kill me as he threatened to.

I’m in the process of just letting it go. Maybe Ps don’t really care all that much if their life crashes down–it’s a false construct anyway and they can create another one, and blame you for whatever happened…if that makes sense? He’ll find a way to make you the perp and him the victim.

They don’t care what they have to say or do as long as it gets them what they want and need. The ends always justify the means.

My sister is world famous with a high profile and is a total P. It’s strange but I think some people need a guru and she’s great at filling that need…while destroying and intimidating everyone who might possibly criticize her. It’s kind of stunning–I wonder if someone will one day put the pieces together and say the Emperor has no clothes…but no, not so far…maybe not ever.

I agree this personality type needs to be exposed but do please consider yourself first. The chances people will believe you might be smaller than you (and I) hope.

It’s difficult seeing my sister pop up on TV all the time, etc but I’ve learned to let it go. I can’t save her victims (her children and countless others without her power). She needs me to be squashed down and I refuse to live that way. I am not wealthy as she is (multi-millionaire) in fact I am quite poor. But as they say, “living well is the best revenge” and in my case it’s true….I am creating a life I enjoy, which will drive her up the wall…If I ever achieved anything she’d go nuts…and try (again) to destroy me…we have no contact and it’s for the best. She is so into her image she’s lost contact with reality…for example, telling me she’d “lived in the UK for 2 years.” Well….I was there in the UK and it was 4 months. I got a chill when she said that about the 2 years—doesn’t she know who to lie to and who to not lie to? Or has she incorporated this lie into her personal history and can’t tell the truth from her creation/persona? No idea. (and 1 example of hundreds–I read what she writes about her background and laugh now—total fabrication for dazzling effect)

Live and let live. My motto—still working on it.
Best to you, and please put yourself first. You know you aren’t crazy, you know what happened. It’s great to be validated, but sometimes it’s enough that we know what happened, we know the truth, and we can move on. And here on Lovefraud, you *are* validated and we do believe you!


Anytime that I have outted a predator, or bad actor.. it has come back to haunt me and even to harm me. But I have always prevailed in the long run and, at times, even able to witness how they did get ‘theirs’…but at the time, it almost crushed me to stand up to them.. because they will do whatever it is that they can and are able to do to get back at anyone who shows them for what they are or stands up to them.. from little to big… I have learned to limit exposure and to always be in protective mode.. I recently had a former minister try to mess me over on a business situation.. it is just amazing what is going on in the world these days…
A friend recently told me that I have the strength of 10 men because my heart is pure… and that is something for us all to hold onto…
Know the truth in your heart, release the need to wonder why that they treated you how they did.. just know what was really done.. and move on..


Hi Tanya, Elizabeth and fellow survivors.

I had a very similar experience to yours and I understand your frustration. I do not regret exposing the sociopath I had to deal with, however. Regrettably people in positions of authority are not always trained to handle situations like these. Your school counsellor sounds very incompetent!!
But usually sociopaths don’t only con women and as time goes by their lies become more and more difficult to sustain – it is always good to plant the seed of doubt, even if in the process some people may think for a while you’re the crazy one, eventually it will all add up when they realise they are also victims. One day he might for instance borrow money from one of the people in your class and not return it, show his agressive side, etc…It is probably safer to talk first to people who know you well; and also those who know him well enough – not the potential accomplices or “enablers” – because a lot of people will have spotted weird things already, even if they had given him the benefit of the doubt so far. That’s my experience anyway. At the end of the day, bar one very incompetent person, most people believed me. It is better to try and get witnesses on your side, print out evidence etc. Try and stay rational and in control. The more emotional you are, the easier it will be for the sociopath to make others believe you’re the crazy one.

To Elizabeth: I agree in a way; but at the same time I wonder about one thing: for those of us who have been manipulated by a sociopath, is it possible that they keep manipulating us afterwards by creating that fear we have that they will always win? Are they really that powerful? They usually don’t have such a good track record. If you have witnesses and evidence and a good lawyer it is unlikely that they can turn a court against you. If in doubt get legal advice and find out exactly what the claims he could make against you would be worth. Be vigilant, of course, but don’t allow him to keep scaring you.


EB suggested in another thread not using the terms ‘sociopathy’ or ‘psychopathy’ initially but instead tantalising people with the term ‘Cluster B’s’. Then they ask “What’s that?” and you can start explaining. I think this is a great strategy as people I have mentioned sociopathy or psychopathy to … well I get the impression they think I am exaggerating or being a bit of a drama queen – nothing could be further from the truth! He’s every bit as dangerous as the title connotes.

And Eileen I believe they are capable of anything – they can win anyone over, putting on such a show about how good and helpful they are and how they were done so badly by us crazy women! I think they do know about the time bomb they plant in our brains – I think it gives them great pleasure to know we continue to suffer after the relationship is over. I have become very bland in my dealings with the P – we are still sorting out legalities so have to remain in limited contact for now – two line emails mostly. I don’t let him know if I suffer and I don’t make out my life is great either. It’s none of his business – he had plenty of chances to be a big part of my life and screwed up every single one – therefore he is now nothing to me. It took me many years of agony to get this detached from him and reading here at the site really helped me to get to this point.

I have no doubt his friends feel sorry for him having to put up with such a bitch as myself – if only they knew the true story they wouldn’t be so quick to pity, but then again invoking pity is one of his major skills – he should really put it on his CV!

CA Mom – your ex was a psychologist?! Why the heck aren’t professions like this screening people as a mandatory element in application? I think we should be screening for mental health in vocations like teaching, counselling, psychology, social work etc – these people do untold damage to vulnerable folk. It just baffles me that our current screening for mental health is merely the absence of any long term diagnosed condition or a long stay in a psych ward.

Plenty of Ps fly well under the radar and can charm the birds from the trees. We should have mandatory screening for professions linked to helping people at a minimum. Would you want your elderly relative cared for by a P in a retirement home? I certainly wouldn’t. Imagine the power they could weild over those who are weakened in any way – most of us have already experienced it – fortunately for us we are able to limp away on our own. Anyone can drum up good character references but this doesn’t mean mental health by any stretch of the imagination!

I hope I see this in my lifetime – we have turned education into a purchasable commodity – if you have the money you can train in any career regardless if you are fit mentally and emotionally or not – that’s crazy!

Hello all, a delicate issue for sure. I would say that “outing” is fair game, and makes sense, ONLY if there is a good chance of saving someone else the agony of being burnt by the P, or there is some other positive outcome for yourself. Otherwise, it just feeds into their drama, and ends up being”all about them” and they can trumpet their victim status to great effect.

Time will tell in my case, as he is going through the divorce courts with me. Only teeny weeny problem is, if I hang tough and we go to trial he will be outing himself. : ) : ) because, the gov’s tax people look at these cases (which become part of the public record). In his case, he is openly admitting a potential multi-million $ tax debt, and the court records state (through my application) that he moved us out of the country to avoid it. Aaaawww…. will he out himself?

Reminds me of the story about how to catch a live monkey. Put out a vase shaped jar with a narrow neck and put some peanuts in the bottom. Chain the jar to the ground. The monkey will put his hand in and grab the peanuts, and refuse to let go. Of course his “hand” won’t come out of the jar because he is holding a fist. I am told they will sooner starve to death than let go and move on. Well that is just the kind of greed I am dealing with. Mindless, self defeating, putrid greed.

CAMom, mine turned out to be gay as well. Most macho, straight, straight straight appearances not withstanding. And yes he blamed me for our shitty sex life too. NEVER touched me unless he wanted sex…and what there was of it was totally perfunctionary, unconnected, mechanical and empty. No wonder I didn’t much care for it (after the honeymoon wore off).

I wonder if the ones that are gay and masquarading as straight do it (have affairs, marriages etc with women) because A) they hate themselves, B) they hate women?

Probably both. I used to occaisionally make a sarcastic joke that my ex P would calculate his net worth every morning before getting out of bed. Now I realize what a huge clue that should have been. It is probably the only remotely “real” thing about himself that he can rely on. Everything else is lies.

I cannot imagine all the wasted energy that goes into keeping all those lies afloat, or the vigilence it takes to keep building up new ones. He hasn’t even introduced his sons to the woman he now lives with, probably to save himself the effort, and reduce the risk of being exposed. Who knows what new lies he is gaming now. (aside from having found salvation in “the catholic church, ouch).

Amber, in your case, where the safety of a great many people may be put at risk, I understand you genuine concerns.
Perhaps there is a way to email his employer, anonomously, from an internet cafe, lets say. At least you will have done your level best to protect others from his reckless indifference. Just a thought.
Peace and love to all.


Dear Tanya,
Thank you so much for sharing your story. I TOTALLY relate to this. I’ve sat in the same seat you have when it comes to being punished for being honest. Ox, I liked what you had to say about this as well. I tried a thousand times to give others a “heads-up” on what this person was and was called a liar for being honest. It’s going to take what it takes for others to really SEE and HEAR just as it did for each of us.

I am watching others be used now by my Ex. P and I’ve stepped out of the picture. I was blamed for everything this idiot did by others and I CHOSE to take the high road of honesty. I STILL take the high road and for those who cannot yet see my ex P for what he really is, they will at some point. He was, and is, a master at twisting whatever I said or did to make himself come out looking like the victim. WHEN he WAS busted, he would play the “I know I made a little mistake and I’m so sorry I hurt anyone.” followed, of course, by an ocean of tears. I quit buying this ages ago, but others haven’t. The only thing I can do is pray for them, even while not particularly liking them at this point, that they will see him for what he really is before he’s taken them for all they’re worth.

Tanya, you brought up a wonderful topic with your story. Honestly, I’ve gotten to the point where it stings far more from those who believe him than from he himself. I KNOW where he’s coming from. They don’t. Yet, it still hurts at times. I am still going to take that high road and I know that for me, keeping silent right now is the best thing I can do for ME. I can’t help them, but I can help me. In the meantime, there are days I want to scream because I KNOW the truth and yet putting it into words would only come back on me.

I also know some will NEVER get the truth, but I have to say I agree with whomever mentioned the phrase, “cluster B’s”. That could very well be an opening to an educational conversation with others.
Hugs to all,

Ox Drover

Dear Cat,

I think we have to learn these things, and to listen to our guts about it, when we are ready to learn. They are so GOOD AT FLATTERY that people fall for it–God knows I DID! Oh, yes, I fell for the flattery, my egg donor fell for the flattery, and HATED MY TRUTH (which was NOT flattery) so you know, if you question their judgment of falling for the flattery, it is almost like you are telling them the OPPOSITE OF FLATTERY in that you are telling them that the P is a liar, they are NOT the best thing sinice sliced bread and they DO NOT WANT TO HEAR THE TRUTH.

So, just as we fell for the flattery and had to learn THE HARD WAY, so will they, Unfortunately, many humans (including me) don’t always learn FROM OTHERS MISTAKES. LOL The invalidate your experience jor accuse you of ulterior motives in order not to have to hear the truth. As Jesus said, they have ears but hear not, they have eyes but see not! Yep, that is it!

Elizabeth Conley

Going no contact isn’t about fear, it’s about returning the highest possible quality of life ASAP. It’s also about not wasting time convincing people of the obvious.

OxDrover said: “if you question their judgment of falling for the flattery, it is almost like you are telling them the OPPOSITE OF FLATTERY in that you are telling them that the P is a liar, they are NOT the best thing sinice sliced bread and they DO NOT WANT TO HEAR THE TRUTH.”

If everyone in the world woke up tomorrow and started claiming the sky was green, would you bother to contradict them? If you woke up one morning and realized the sky was green, would you continue to claim it was green even though it still looked blue to everyone else? Why bother? Don’t you have better things to do with your time? Do you really want to become socially isolated over a matter so trivial?

People either know how to recognize cluster B personality disorders, or they don’t. If they don’t know what they’re dealing with, it’s at least in part because they don’t want to know. They’re not going to thank you for ripping their rose colored glasses off and exposing their delicate sight to the the merciless sting of unfiltered daylight. They’ll see this as an assault, and perhaps they’re right.

If you don’t have things to do, people to see and places to go that have nothing to do with the cluster B, it’s time to find them.


I read everyone post and that has been a heavy on my heart, I want to out him so bad I can taste it. I know that he’s back living with his ex wife Used me until all my money is gone and didn’t give me back a red penny then left. Funny because he still was trying to portray like he was alone. He’s the biggest liar on this earth, he text me an told the reason I turning on him is because I let the devil in my space I told him that is the only truth he ever told me since I met him Dec 2008 because he is the devil nobody with a good intentions can take from a mother and her children and leave her for broke nobody with empathy. Its like I just want to tell people about the type of person he is I often wonder do his ex wife know what kind of man he is, if she do how in the hell can she be with this person I wonder has he told her what he has done to me, I feel like such a fool for stepping aside an letting the devil in my space because I wanted to be love and cared for!


Conley, maybe I’m confused are you saying that people want to out the S’s because they don’t have things to do with there own time?


Hello all – I have come back after a few weeks break because it is so overwhelming emotionally for me to deal with this. I spent four days with my mom over Thanksgiving, and came back to find a serious problem. I came back and read a thread – fairly recent but I can’t remember which one – where Oxy and several other told stories of what they had been through and was jusy completely bawling and a total mess by the time I got to the end of it, and decided that I needed to just lighten up for a while because it is just so difficult to deal with.

As I know Pollyannamore has posted on this I have had fibromyalgia for 20 years and it doesn’t get any easier, especially in the areas of sleep, concentration, and memory. I came back and of course could neither remember my login name or password! Obviously, I have now solved this little problem!

I need advice because I am now in a difficult situation that I thought was fairly safe. I packed up everything almost 2 years ago and moved back to my hometown. I decided that I did not currently have the financial resources to get my own place, so I looked for a roommate. I tried to find the most stable situation I could find, and ended up moving in with a woman who

1) lived in the community her whole life
2) had owned and been in the same home 20 years
3) had a grown daughter out of college, a nice young lady
4) her home was nice and clean and taken care of
5) was about my age – 51 (I am 53)
6) had experienced some chronic illness of her own

I was so proud of myself – I had found a safe place and with someone who it seemed I got along very well with. Her daughter ended up living here for 8 months until she found a good job. This was back in August.

Long story short I take pain meds – try not to during the day if possible but cannot sleep AT ALL without pain and sleep meds.
I kept noticing the amounts of my meds would not seem right. I would call the pharmacist saying they must have made an error. My pharmacist told me – “Is there any chance that someone could be stealing your meds?” and I said no, I don’t think so. Part of it has to do with my memory problems and not being sure I did not make a mistake myself.

I also told my physician – he said this stuff is worth money – you need to get a lock box. Well a couple of moths ago I did.
When 3 people lived here there was no way of knowing which one might be taking it. Now, four months later, apparently only ONE can be taking it. This woman has a very charming personality and I really thought she was trustworthy – heck, I know where she lives, works, goes to church, and who she hangs out with. There are no strangers entering the house, in fact almost no one.

I got my meds before T-day and was careful to count what I had. Locked everything up in my little box, took one key with, and buried the other key in a bronze container full of makeup.

Came back after T-day, pulled my lockbox out, and it was OPEN, and almost exactly half of my monthly meds were gone.

I know you guys in the health care system will not be surprised at this, but I called my mom and she said that is outrageous and brazen – she must have found the key. She said carry both keys with you and all your meds with you, which I am but I do not like the idea. It feels more vulnerable than leaving it “safe” at home.

First I got angry. The next day I called a friend and asked if she could recommend a lawyer. My financial situation is somewhat better than it was a year ago, enough to get a small apt. myself, and have my stuff shipped down from storage. This woman had been a realtor in the past, and said she had to do a credit check on me by law. I gave her some financial information. What – she’s going to disappear tomorrow!? Not likely. I fully intend to cover my ass.

My mom says she’s delusional, and is worried about me. I said Mom this is an inconvenience, but nothing you should worry about. I am not feeling so strong now. I fully intend to do or say NOTHING until I have made evry arrangement and have my own place to live. My problem is I cannot even pretend to like her anymore – what the hell does she expect?
She acts like everything is fine and dandy. SHe must really think I am an idiot by now – she doesn’t think I am going to notice? She took HALF – over 30 pills. And when I think of all the times in the last year I was short on meds and the suffering I go through when that happens. Now I am feeling all the stress of having to live a lie. I cannot behave in the same way, because stress makes my illness worse, and makes it difficult to do what I need to do. I am probably bedridden 3 or 4 days a week from fatigue, pain, or both, and only one or 2 days a week look fairly normal and can go out and do things.

Anyway, I saw the subject of this post and said – hmmmmm, what do these ladies and gents have to say. She is really a horrible person – but I cannot say that it was ever very obvious to me. She has never appeared to be high or using. It’s just now that I am SURE of what I suspected, there was a weekday she did not go to work and slept most of the day. I decided I am going to have a real good look at her. I was in the kitchen reading the paper and she came in looking dazed and disoriented, and babbling a bit. I stood up to talk to her so I could look her right in the eyes. They were dilated more than mine. I know a nurse would be able to tell better than me – my mom worked in a hospital for 30 years and they have had staff caught using etc.

It takes energy I don’t really have to act normal in this situation. I do NOT want to confront her, and worry what will happen when she can’t get a new supply (which I will refill today). But she can’t possibly think I don’t know?? Or can she?? I pretty much made up my mind that I have nothing to gain by confronting her. I am upset because I really had no clue. I barely even believe it now.

I will go to the lawyer and tell her this woman has financial information. That concerns me, because that part will not be over when I leave. When I am out, I will tell her that I have done so and she better not mess with me. I will feel good on that day, but I ain’t feelin so very good now.

I have just been avoiding her and not saying much – but that’s the norm most of the time anyway. I am afraid of repercussions, like you have stated so well in the above posts.
At least I will be able to get out, but not soon enough for me.
I now know not to tell ANYONE what I take or why I take it. I wish I didn’t have to take it because it is a pain in the ass, but I have to be realistic.

I have a pretty long way to go, I think. Physically it will be extremely difficult to move, which is why I avoided it for so long. I have pinched nerves and stenosis in my neck, so getting groceries or doing laundry can cause a flareup of migraine-like pain during which I can hardly move. This happens once a week. I have had nerve blocks but am going to see a neurologist because I will probably need surgery of some kind.

I was not sure if I was up to it. She has pushed me into this decision, which might be a good thing overall. But it is very scary. Is it possible that she could pick the lock on the lockbox? I cannot afford to find out. I just think if she had found the key, like my mom says, wouldn’t she have locked it back? I think she may have picked it somehow. If you picked it obviously there would be no way to lock it up again.

Any advice on how to handle this person would be appreciated. In the meantime I will be hiding in my room.

Yikes! I really thought somehow I was leaving past dramas behind. I guess the next couple of months will be “a learning experience” as they say. I am so glad to have found this site.
I know others have it worse, especially with children involved. I should know, I used to be one of those children a long time ago. Get them out when you can.


Once you look, I mean really take a good long HARD look at how much energy it takes to be involved with this toxic POISON in your life (in any way)

…You have to also ask yourself : “Why would you want to drain yourself of your energies like that so early in your recovery”?

This is a personal choice. Some people HAVE outted their S/P/N. Some with success and some without the sucess they hoped for.
Because one thing is for certain if you choose to make it your mission to “out him” you have to put other things aside.

But you have to make that choice for yourself. What do you hope for in the outcome and how much energy do you have to put into this? And how important is it?

Some of that same energy could be used for your own benefit and your children as well. The healing process is a long and hard process. If your focus is on “outing him” that can be a slippery slope to climb and will also take the focus off of you. And other things that you might be doing to benefit YOU and your CHILDREN.
Is it really in your childrens best interest and your best interest to do this?…..That is the question you need to ask yourself. And a question only you can answer.


7steps … that sucks. You NEED those meds = what kind of person takes what another needs to have some semblance of quality in their life?? My Doc told me not to carry mine around with me – they get routinely stolen and sold on the streets – he also said if I ‘played him’ in any way ie wanted more then he would stop prescribing. That is going to look bad for you if you go back for replacement even though someone else stole them.

I would suggest that is not a safe place for you to stay – if you get the meds replaced, the same thing will happen again. Have you confronted her about it?


To CAmom: psychologist is a great occupation for a sociopath. They like mindgames, they enjoy manipulating people, they love controlling people’s, they like being considered as helpers and carers, and they’re looking for access to vulnerable women! It’s the perfect job really. My ex studied psychology. It is important for someone who does not have emotions to learn about them so that they can fake them, and manipulate others’.


Thanks for sharing your story Tanya. It illustrates just how expertly the sociopath can fool everyone and turn the tables to their own end. I can empathize with what you went through because I tried to do the same thing. The actions of the school counselor must have felt so defeating and demoralizing.

My situation was different in that my ex does not pose a deadly health risk (although I AM going to get myself tested because of his history of unsafe promiscuity), ‘just’ the usual psychological damage that Sociopaths inflict on their targets.

I tried to out my ex and it came back to bite me in the butt…badly.

I agree with Elizabeth. No one is going to thank you for ripping off their rose-colored glasses. Those who can see without them, will. Those who can’t will believe EVERY tactic in the Sociopaths arsenal and you will be branded the nut.

They KNOW you will try and out them. I’m sure others have tried before me. They also know how to make a pre-emptive strike and blacken you before you even think about outing them. The smear campaign of a sociopath is like being violated all over again, but now he’s got support energizing him.

They also have no conscience, which gives them the upper hand. In a battle between the ethical one following the rules and a monster, who do you think is gonna win? Especially when the monster is a master at morphing into whatever “good” image he wants.

It’s like dancing with the devil. I’m not doing it anymore.

I realize that I can’t save the world and I can’t save anyone else either. I CAN save myself though and that’s where it begins.


Elizabeth Conley

“Conley, maybe I’m confused are you saying that people want to out the S’s because they don’t have things to do with there own time? ”

Nope. I’m saying that getting the good life as quickly as possible is an effective distraction from obsessing over the scumbag. I’m also saying that obsessing about outing the scumbag is obsessing about the scumbag. Don’t obsess about the scumbag.

Start living your best possible life ASAP. That means NO MORE SCUMBAG. Live like s/he/it does not exist.

Ox Drover

Dear 7 Steps,

You are NOT crazy, I too have short term memory problems from PTSD so if I “lose” something I always wonder if it is me not remembering (many times) but for you to come home abnd the box to be OPEN when you left it locked and half your meds gone, I don’t think is your poor memory.

I used to have a “friend” who was STEALINg small things from me, not valuable $$ wise but just because she wanted them and was a hoarder, I finally caught her and it tore me up because I loved this woman like a sister. It has been difficult for me to distance myself from both this woman and her husband but I am over the grief of that now and have set some strick limits, it is up to No Contact now.

I think you probably have LITTLE TO GAIN with this woman by confronting her, and I know that is difficult because in your heart you want to TELL HER OFF—but she does not care that you were in pain, she is obviously an addict when she can get pills. It happens, but she is NOT going to fess up to the thefts and it will only make the situation worse.

I suggest that you either hire movers or call on friends to get you moved out of that place as quickly as POSSIBLE. If you need to go stay with a friend (and take your medicine with you and any other valuable papers that she might be able to use the information off of)

Good luck, at least you finally caught on to what this woman is doing. It is not all that unusual (I am a retired nurse) and I have seen in in and out of the medical profession.

Keep coming here! This is a healing place. I know that fibro is painful and in some cases debilitating, but there are ways to improve your life! Right now, getting out of this situation will be a BIG improvement.


Thanks pollyanna, I know you would understand. I am afraid to come right out and confront her about it. I don’t want the situation to be more uncomfortable for me than it already is.

Yeah believe me I do know what professionals think about this – in years I have always stuck to my dosage and never took more than I have, usually less. I really have to take as little as possible because it exacerbates my depression. And for the nerve pain in my neck I could not even take enough to help, it doesn’t even work for that.

I don’t want to confront her about it, and I do not know if she used a key or picked the lock on my lockbox. Is it possible to pick these locks?

She took 4 or 5 of my sleep rx too and I can’t even say how dreadful the next 2 nights will be. Laying down and not even sleeping for 5 minutes out of 24 hours. Can’t even nap. It’s her fault and she is putting me through torture.

I never had a gut-check about this. I am now convinced that I don’t know what normal is. She has definitely used the flattery card on me, telling everyone she has the best roommate blah blah blah. I have believed every word of it. I am even thinking now how stupid she is because she can only blame herself when I leave. It doesn’t make for a very solid feeling.

I don’t know if she can get into my lockbox without the keys. I will wear the dern keys on a chain around my neck if I have to. I would feel better if I knew that it was safe to keep them there.

I will have to take out money from my retirement fund to be able to move, so that will take at least a month. At least I can get out over the holidays because my mom will be out of town and I can stay there for a few days. I cannot stay with her for any length of time because she lives in subsidised housing.

But she has to know that I know, at this point.

I feel I am better off if she has no information about what my plans are or that there are repercussions for her behavior.
I think people are right about it being a dangerous game to play with a sociopath or any kind of addict. Are they going to listen to reason? No.


7 Steps – you’ve got it. In a nutshell. Not particularly safe to confront and not particularly safe to stay there. Definitely protect what meds you have while you stay there. Is there another location you can store them at and just pick up your daily allowance? My colleague has a son with ADHD who is on Ritalin = turned out a while ago he was stealing way more than his dose from his stash and selling them to teenage friends. So she took the whole pack and stored them in a locked filing cabinet at work – he only ever got his daily dose doled out. That worked for quite a while, but then she left the cabinet unlocked and unattended for ten mins one day and he stole the lot.

I wonder if you might couch the missing pills in this way …
“I think we better call the Police … there has been a break in and half of my pills have been stolen.” What do you and others think? Or better leave it alone?

Just an idea – lets her know that YOU know while not pointing the finger directly at her … for all you know someone else COULD be stealing them??? I also wonder about asking your Doc for advice – maybe the pharmacy can dole them out differently = this might mean some slight hassle for you but might protect your pills. What I am referring to here is maybe picking up a day’s worth of tablets at a time. Or could you store them with your mother?

If you have an ultra clean record in terms of taking the prescribed dose and not asking for more, then you could contact your Doc and explain what has happened – ask for advice. Let them know you need a repeat to replace the missing tablets – these sorts of situations do happen from time to time and it isn’t your fault.

In the meantime – try to decompress – your pain will be much worse with all this stress going on – it will trip you back into hyper alertness and flood cortisol through your system. Try to keep mindful – in the present and apply moist heat to painful areas – a bath, a hot wheat pack, even a hot flannel or a soak in a spa at the swimming pool. For sleeping – a banana about an hour or so before bed does it for me! Others like warm milk – bananas are loaded with potassium. Your doc should replace whatever you had stolen. I don;t ordinarly take sleeping tabs but have an over the counter pack for absolute emergencies – pain gets out of control with no sleep and you can end up in a cycle that takes months to recover from.

Definitely you are wise in not letting this person know your plans. I can’t really imagine why people who are not in pain take pain meds – it baffles me somewhat. I HATE taking mine but can’t manage through the day without them – I can’t imagine just taking them for no reason. That really is lousy of her to do that to you – especially in the holiday season when you really rely on meds to have some semblance of a normal social life.

Oxy and 7steps – there is quite a bit of evidence that PTSD CAUSES fibromyalgia as chemicals cascade through the autonomic nervous system. Having had the pain and spastic symptoms for over 6 yrs, I have read pretty much every theory going on it and while I see what contributes to causing it, I can also attest to the severity of the pain – it is definitely not in sufferer’s heads. The best we can do to heal ourselves (given the pitiful nature of available treatments and approaches) is to focus on symptom reduction while we search for the magic cure. So that woman taking your meds is an act of extreme cruelty that seriously impacts your quality of life in the now. Guard them any way you have to – if you have to create a necklace out of the vials – do it! Just put some tinsel on top and you’ll be well fashionable!

Sending you some good thoughts 7 Steps – hope the situation improves for you. Don’t go doubting your own radar – this is a sneaky addict -they are in a class of their own when it comes to deceit and manipulation. Dependence on meds does not equal addiction – she’s taking them for fun – you rely on them to function – there’s a fundamental difference there.


Dear Ox,
I saw your comment on Thursday, 17 December 2009 @ 11:30am and you are so dead on with what you said. Thank you! “Light doth beckon on yonder head.” MINE. I think that for some of them, my telling them the truth is, in their eyes, the same as calling them stupid and greatly questioning their ability to see people for what they really are. ALL of us would like to think we are a good judge of character, but heaven knows I fell for that flattery as well. I was WARNED about this man. His family nickname is “Nixon”. Hello! Yet, I still didn’t listen. Just as I once was, they are “slimed” by him. His flattery(bs) and lies are all over them and right now, they are buying it.

It is because of this that I have chosen to NOT see my family at Christmas. Given that my family is so large, some of us travel and Christmas starts early on the 23rd and goes into the 26th. Usually, it’s a lot of fun BUT this year, they have invited him as well and I refuse to go over this very issue. They do not see him for what he is and I do. Unbelievably, all of my family, a majority of which don’t even speak to me, assumed I would be present. I can’t compromise myself on this. NC, NC, NC.


Dear 7steps & pollyanna,
I have dealt with this situation. I do not have fibromyalgia, but at one time I had to be on those meds for a short while for other reasons. My ex P. LOVED them and in fact became so addicted to them, things started vanishing and I found out he was buying them from drug dealers. I went to great lengths to hide the medication, never allowed my purse to be anywhere except by my side, etc… It was hyper-vigilance at its’ best. When my new camera came up missing, I did exactly what pollyannanomore suggested; I told him I had to call the police, there had to have been a break-in. I was missing my new camera! KNOWING he had taken it, I proceeded to look all over the house after he told me I had misplaced it. Again, I said I was going to call the police. 2 days later, the camera “appeared” in a very conspicuous place where I finally “found” it. I did NOT confront him head on. Nothing would have been gained by that.
I found that very few words were needed to get back what was rightfully mine. I agree that you should get out of there and no, she doesn’t need to know your plans. I’ve found that disclosing anything I’m planning to do almost always works against me. I’m thankful for you that you have a mom who sees her for what she really is. That’s a great help.
Sending strength and prayers to you and all,

Ox Drover

Dear Cat,

Yea, I am glad that you are staying strong and NC over the holidays for that. My egd donor always wanted her brother, Uncle Monster, at her house for Christmas and would give me a ration of chit about how I was going to hell because I couldn’t “forgive him”—-sheesh this man should have been on death row for what he did to his mother, his wife and his kids, and my egg donor would cry and say how I was ruining HER christmas but could never see how she was ruining MINE! LOL I got to where I hated christmas because it reminded me of all her crying and blame placing. But you know, I would go somewhere else with my kids (who were small at the time) and not have christmas at her hosue at all. I ialso started avoiding Thanksgiving dinner at her house too by going with my living history group for a week long camp out at a state park that week. ANYTHING to keep from going for one of the Family DRAMA-RAMAs with uncle Monster.

Cat, I liked your “i’m going to call the police because there has obviously been a break in” about your camera. LOL Good deal! I had a “friend” (now X-friend) who used to steal from me, and I finally X-d her out of my life, it was a difficult thing even after I knew she was stealing, but I finally got enough boundaries to DO IT and do NC with her and her husband as well. I used to think he was not like her, but I finally realized he was just as much as user as she was a thief. Clean out that rolodex get all the toxic people out! Love Oxy


Dear Tanya,

For years I made excuses for my x’s physically threatening me. I made excuses for the way he’d chase me clear out of the house, to the point that I’d gab my keys, barefoot, without purse, and drive away. For years I’d make excuses (I couldn’t grasp the truth) about the way he intimidated, threatened, stalked, and bullied my oldest daughter. His whole family convinced me that she, being the teen-ager was acting out because she was jealous of my attention being divided.

I made excuses when he pushed the hutch of our desk on top of me, and then lifted my chair, and flung me to the floor, causing my head to hit the book shelves, after which he lifted me by my throat and (having marshal arts experience) had me in a choke hold, threatening with a slight move, he could snap my neck. My airway was completely blocked. Why didn’t I call the police? I didn’t call because he was sorry, scared, full of remorse, and promises. I also promised…if it happened again, I would call the police.

When it happened again, I called the police. Not knowing the law, I thought they would just make him leave. I was obviously hurt (torn hamstring, and broken toe) what couldn’t be seen was my back had been severely jolted, and pushed out a disc which caused me extreme pain for two years. Even so, when I was asked if he hurt me, I said, “No. I just want him to leave.” I was hoping he’d be scared enough to get help. Instead, he lied and told the police that the scratches on his neck from playing in the pool with out 8 year old son were caused by me. I was arrested. Restraining orders were placed on me. When I went to plead not guilty, my x worked his last piece of magic; he’d become a reformed man. He managed to convince me that I’d be destroying our children’s lives if I pleaded not guilty (now it makes no sense to me) but then… my mind was so warped from years of his twisted truths, I accepted the guilt. How could I put my children in the court system as witnesses against their father? They, at least as far as I knew, had no clue about what he did to me. I was SO wrong!

Flash forward…. Once I went NC, and the NC is sanctioned by the court. He has to deal directly with the kids as they are old enough now, and have cell phones; he has targeted our oldest daughter (16). Instead of blaming me for his lack of relationship with the kids, he’s targeting her. And, he succeeded in convincing the children’s attorney (appointed by the court) that our daughter is interfering with him seeing the two younger siblings. When, in fact, our OD is the only one that greets him with a kiss and a hung, and is the only one that has any memory of bonding behavior with her father. Even so… he’s addicted to sympathetic attention, and he has to have someone to which he is the victim. And, since it can’t be me…he’s picked fights with, insulted, ignored, denied her requests to spend time with him, alone, didn’t show up for events she’s invited him to, and when she had enough… and called him out – she became his new target.

THIS IS AN S.O.S. for any of the readers here, more importantly the experts in this forum…

The kid’s court appointed therapist called me yesterday. The kid’s attorney is now representing my ex on HIS behalf, and has only seen our children briefly, twice, in the last four years. My ex has dropped his attorney, as he’s found that he has more power going after me, using the “Parental Alienation Syndrome” even though…he’s the one who rejects, abandons, upsets the kids, and when they don’t want to go with him, he blames me, or rather, now our OD. When our OD insisted on going, no matter how hurt she was, he turned it around, and is legally preventing her from going…

I’m told to stay out of their relationship with their father… No influence. It’s up to them (the kids and their father) to make the relationship work. Well, I have stayed out, and now I’m accused of influencing behind the scenes. The fact that he doesn’t do anything to create a bond, trust, connection, nor does he show them remorse, concern, dedication, and commitment… his visits with our children are all about his new family, wife and step children; further alienating our children. The fact that he’s bullied, threatened, intimidated, belittled, lied about and caused the kids to experience rejection by their own grandparents is not even considered as the reason the kids DON’T want to go with him. Yet, they do go…because our OD is there, because I tell them they HAVE to go. But, it is because our OD insists on going; the two younger ones will go.

Yesterday, I am told that the kid’s attorney called the therapist, furious. My x has been in his office ranting and raving about being kept from his kids. Because two visits in a row, he rejected our OD, in front of the younger two, and they were so shocked and hurt by his behavior, they didn’t want to go with him. His response to them was glib, and almost relieved.. He didn’t even try to convince them to go. He was happy to jump back in his car and drive away. Then he accuses our OD of interfering.

The therapist asked me to come in see him right after the Holidays. He convinced the Kid’s attorney (who’s representing their father, more then the kids and who has not returned my calls, nor has he opened his schedule up to see the kids after numerous attempts to get them in to see him) to hold off on taking me back to court until he talks to me.

This will be the third time where I have seen this therapist alone in 4 years. The first two times were 4 years ago. He said then…”This has nothing to do with you. Their father is the one that has alienated the kids from himself.”

This same therapist has told me that he’s in over his head; that he’s never dealt with such a confusing case. He’s never experienced a case so complex and complicated. He even said to me, “I don’t know what to do. I don’t know how to convince (x) of what he needs to do to bond with the kids. He seems incapable of being able to do this…yet; he’s gaining so much ground, legally. And, I’m scared for you and the kids. If you don’t make the kids do exactly as the order says, then… he’s going to go after custody of the youngest.” The one he spends that absolute least amount of time connecting with. She doesn’t really know him, at all. Nor, does he attempt to talk to her on the phone, or during their visits as the visits are all topics about himself, and his new family.

The kids were going to every visit with their father. And, just as I predicted, this would become an inconvenience for him. So he had to upset, target, and cause issues with the one that was insuring the visits were enjoyable, especially for the youngest sister; since their father has NO CLUE about her interests, temperament, fears, etc. Our OD would get her laughing, make the boring six hour drive interesting, redirect the conversation when their father would focus on his new family; causing the younger two siblings feel like second rate citizens in their father’s life. The only way to stop the visits from going smoothly is to shut the OD out. And, it worked.

He can reject the kids, and then blame me for Parental Alienation. Now…I’m being threatened again, with legal action and custody issues pertaining to our youngest.

What do I need?

I need any article, website, reference material, case studies that I can take with me to the session with the children’s therapist. As it seems he needs a better understanding of what we are dealing with. He is fully supportive of me, but is at a loss at how the ex has this much power with the judicial system.

I need to show the therapist expert opinion, that validates that my ex N/P/S is stirring up strife just before the Holiday’s to gain sympathetic attention. He’s addicted to the chaos; the dramma-rama, and his family is also addicted to the ambulance chasing mentality. My ex hit the jackpot with our divorce, insuring he’d have years of spoon feeding the addictions of his family system in order to get his own supply of sympathetic attention. They don’t care if it is true or not, the fact that he can manipulate the system and create a good, juicy legal feud to follow, were people are lied about, crushed, hurt, and where the victory goes to the most cunning (my ex), he will be their hero. And, their attitude about how the kids react to these mind games…”They should just get over it.” I kid you not.

I need as much information as possible, with expert insights to back up my chronological notes, pieces of evidence, and the adverse affects this little “family game” is having on the kids.”

How do I get that attention of the court to recognize what’s taking place?

When my ex asked the judge, the last time we were in court, “What if they don’t want to go with me…the judge said to him, “Nobody is going to force them to go with you. If they don’t want to go, they don’t go. Period.”

But, get the children’s attorney to present his opinion against me, based on heresy by my ex…without spending enough time with the kids, whom he represents, nor myself… the judge is going to lean on the opinion of the glazed over, intoxicated affects of my ex and his new (highly seductive) wife.

This newest threat is, after all… a smoke screen to avoid the consequences of not paying the court ordered support. And, it’s a smoke screen to avoid the legal actions against his father who has breeched a Promissory Note agreement, to which I now have grounds to demand payment in full. This is how they operate. To avoid me taking action against them, they… target a child, cause the kids to feel unsafe, and then blame me of alienation.

If I could walk away… God knows I would. I’ve convinced the kids to go on their visits and make the most of the moment, not to expect anything resolved about the past, nor to put too much expectation on the future. Just enjoy the moment. Whatever complaints the kids have, I tell them.. “You need to talk to your father about that.” When the kids express not wanting to go with him, I’ve respond, “That’s between you and your Dad.” When he’s pitted them against each other, and they complain..”I stress to each one, individually, “Your relationship with our father is not dependent on your siblings’ relationship with their father. If you have issues with your dad, the other two don’t have to agree; but that doesn’t invalidate what your issues are, either. And, even if your sibling has issues with their dad, doesn’t mean you have to take sides. If you want to spend time with him, and they are mad at him.. then, you spend time with him. It’s totally up to you. Even if your siblings get mad at you for wanting to spend time with him… they will get over it. You have to do what you feel is comfortable and right between you and your dad.”

The therapist said one concerning thing… When I told him my attorney wants me NC and out of the middle of the kids relationship with their father, which means I’m not proactive, either – I’m to remain neutral. The therapist said, “Yeah, but even when the CEO doesn’t come to the office, he’s still in control.” You are the head honcho in all of this; you have the most influence, and can really affect results.”

Hmmmm? So, based on that comment, when the N/P/S father acts badly, and alienates his own children from himself… and, then blames me because they don’t want to be with him… I am to affect what results? I’ve stretched my children’s tolerance of his cold hearted, manipulative, mean spirited, deceptive, conniving, character assassinating ways as far as they will go… What exactly am I supposed to affect?
How can I affect the kids when their father is purposefully pushing them away, so that he can claim that he’s the victim????????????????????? Even when one of his children insists on going with him, he manages to get support to reject her, and then blames me of alienation.

Any articles, expert opinions, case studies that would help the Court appointed therapist understand why, he too, feels “confused.” A classic symptom of being “gas lighted,” deceived, manipulated, and convinced your own perceptions are inaccurate. And, the fact that he’s a therapist doesn’t make him immune to the affects of an N/S/P. Articles that will help him grasp what’s happening, and the damaging affects of the kids being thrown in with the lions without being allowed the very basic weapon of their own self defense when their father targets them; with out that, too, (their self defense) being used as evidence of Parental Alienation Syndrome.


I have no knowledge or advice to share with you; I wish I did.

I just want to say I hear how horrid and untenable this is and you are in my thoughts.

I wish you the very best,
one step



Thank you. Your username is similar to my motto in life, during times like this… “One minute at a time.” ::grins::

I’m surprisingly OK. I’ve been dodging his bullets for so long, it’s become a regular part of life; or aka…”A new normal.”

Early on, I’d be frozen in fear… and, silent.

This weekend, I learned something from the mice I’ve been chasing in my garage… They, too, freeze when there is a threat. The truth is…if they came at me, I’d probably let them have the house, and move. So, rather then become frozen in fear…I am reaching out for resources, information, ideas and suggestions.

I had another realization, tonight. My ex is like a whiney complaining child. The kind of child that moans and groans, relentlessly tatteling of his perceived injustices inflicted upon him when he can’t get immediate gratification of taking what doesn’t belong to him… I see the court system as the tired parent, who’s been patient long enough, and extended many options and opportunities for the nerve racking child to get the message, and grow from the experience. Since it has become apparent that he’s never going to get the message and grow; the courts (the tired parent) reaches the end of their rope, and snaps at the quiet, compliant, cooperative child…”Just give him what he wants, damnit… I’m tired of hearing him whine. And, I’m too tired, and don’t have the time, and am too distracted to figure out a way to make him stop complaining – so I expect you to sacrifice and give up your rights, your boundaries, and whatever else belongs to you, if that’s what it takes to get him to shut up!”

I haven’t been complaining. I haven’t taken him to court. I haven’t made threats. I’ve cooperated to the letter of the law, even when it went against everything inside my being. I followed directions as they have been given. Yet…the complaining child continues to whine, because he actually got what he asked for…now, its too much of an inconvenience, and as such he has to blame the children as his excuse to reject them — but, of course, this is my fault too. It will be interesting to see what the tired parent (the court system) expects of me to do about his whining now?


Isabell – very interesting anology, a classic model for passing the buck.

it must be very hard to follow the letter of the buck passing law, especially where the welfare of your kids’ hearts are concerned.

I go through cycles where I freeze also. it is painful when i am in that place. i do think it is part of the fight or flight continuum, in as much as it is a response to threat.

You know, I really think a BIG truck could solve a WHOLE LOT of PROBLEMS!

all the best,
one step


You are in one of those rock and a hard place situations and I feel for you. I also understand, although I am in a completely different situation I am also between a rock and a hard place myself. It is a TERRIBLE feeling. And one hard to define.

I don’t know how much time you have. But I think the one person that you have in your corner is the therapist. The problem is that he doesn’t really “get it” (as much as he needs to) and this is going to have to be your mission. To teach him what he doesn’t know.

When people don’t “get it” it is hard to give them “personal examples” of what is happening in your “actual” world. When it is PERSONAL that seems to come out in the example your trying to “lay out” for them and I think it adds to their confusion of trying to figure out the complexity of it all. It comes out more like a he said , she said, kind of example and therapist see to much of that already. So give him more “factual” information that coralates with the PERSONAL situation you and your kids are in.

Gas lighting is SO VERY HARD to explain when it is happeneing to you. And the DRAMA is almost impossible to comprehend unless you have lived it.

I think I would actually do google searches on some of the very difficult to define behaviors and traits that the S/P/N exibits. And give your therapist as many of these that you can print out that would help him to SEE it in a different light.

When a man is using his own children as pawns, I am sure the therapist sees this, but can’t quite put his finger on the severity of it all. ALOT of people during a divorce use their kids as pawns and they are not S/P/N. So although he has seen this many times before, he hasn’t likely seen such complexity before in a case. It is one thing to use kids as pawns and quite another to be willing to throw them under the bus…..

There also should be an article or two here that might be an eye opener for the therapist. I guess we EXPECT that a therapist should KNOW more about this disorder than we do. This has NOT been my experience thus far. A therapist only knows what they have had experience with. And lets face it this disorder is something that you have to experience personally to really GET IT. We question it even when we LIVE it, because it is so unbelievable.

Another google search that kind of defines it well is psychological manipulation. That is what he is doing to your kids. But the thing about kids is they have that OPENESS to actually see things better than we do, however can’t necessarily put into words either.

An article here on LF that really puts into perspective the explanation of how complex understanding this disorder is might be Steves article: The sociopaths irrational optimism.
Maybe this would be a good on for your therapist to read?

I am sure that this therapist knows all of this stuff already. But maybe present it to him in a way so that he may better “get it” in your case.

Isabell, I KNOW it is hard to have faith in the system. I personally DON’T have faith in the system. It failed me & my son when I was seeking help within it.
HOWEVER please DO have faith in yourself! If anyone can do this YOU can….
You have a way of presenting yourself that is very level headed and with your childrens best intrest in mind. All you can do at this point is to try and “educate” the one person in all of this that might be of help to you in the court room. And that is a TALL job initself. But if anyone has the capacity to do this it is you.


No contact, no contact, no contact…that’s the loudest message you can sent. All others can be twisted and used against you.

Sociopaths love the righteous. They can predict their behaviors and turn love and kindness into ugly evil. Stay away and let others learn their lessons on their own.

It is not for you to decide who suffers and who doesn’t. Would you have listened to fair warning? Each of us has grown and learned from our experiences, in some necessary way. If others have something to learn, you can intervene all you want, their lesson will still come…



Again…this article and the posts hit home SO well!

When my ex and I broke up, he began writing poems (something he had done early in our relationship…you know, a real HOOK) to me and sending them via a mutual website. Well, after about two months of no contact (and me feeling like I was going insane might I add), he texted me. I answered it, and the FIRST two things he said were “(my son) misses you terribly” and “have you dated any one else?”

These were strange comments because, well, first off his son and I weren’t close AT ALL! It took me a minute to realize it was a lie which he was using to guilt me into going back to him…he even told me that his son CRIED when he told him we broke up.

Next, it was strange that he asked if I had dated anyone because, well, I hadnt, but the demeaning tone of his voice made me feel like I ACTUALLY HAD! His mother and I were ‘friends’ on facebook, and since he LIVES WITH HIS MOM AT 36, he had been snooping on her computer and reading my feeds (some of which had interactions with one specific guy). I can remember him asking repeatedly in this conversation “are you seeing anyone,have you dated anyone, are you dating anyone”…and he broke up with me!

My feelings…the sociopath you/we are/were dating make US feel crazy because THEY are crazy!


Dear Witsend,

Once again…Thank you!


I find it extremely aggravating that I occasionally have obsessive thoughts about exposing my ex-P as a psychopath. I am angry that she gets away with the big lie, especially with people who know/knew me. My new wife helps me to calm down and let it go, but it comes back and I get angry that she can get away with this ongoing façade and lies. She clearly has told an immense lie to my children, her boyfriend and supporters, her family, our former friends and colleagues about our past and ongoing situations which result in her male sycophants (former and current boyfriend) attacking me in emails about my alleged behavior (she provides them with selective emails attempting to portray me as hostile and angry and surely conceals the truth from them).

The friends, family and colleagues have not once contacted me to find out my side of our story nor do they wish to speak to me, which tells me she has told a whopper and truly convinced them I am a bad guy and have done the things she has alleged. I live with the comfort of knowing that those who know me best know the real story and how she has affected my family and career.

This email below comes from my ex-P’s boyfriend after my brother contacted one of my ex-P’s closest male supporters (former affair) who has great hostility towards me to ask why he continues to be involved in my children’s lives.

Hey tuff guy
I’ve tried to stay out of Angies dealings with Bob as much as possible. However at this point I feel compelled to address you directly. We both have associates in the financial Industry, ironically we even know mutual brokers. & mgrs who work with AMEX, funny huh? Anyway I digress, maybe you don’t have the whole picture on this situation, a brief history:
1 Angie & Bob got married
2 Angie had an affair (note from Bob ”“ multiple affairs ”“ funny thing, guy she had the most recent affair prior to meeting her current boyfriends is good friends with him ”“ do you suppose that relationship has been concealed?)
3 They got divorced
4 Bob & I got reacquainted about 4 yrs ago when I started seeing Angie, We actually confided in each other- because I TRUSTED HIM
5 Bob came to LA.,stayed with me for 3 days,looked at houses, played golf & drank wine – at this time he indicated he would like to move here & HE got Angie to agree to sell the Tx house in tandem (note from Bob ”“ divorce decree required that Angie sell the house or buy me out within 6 months at that point when I agreed to sell ”“ surely this information has been withheld as well). Everybody wins & life was good ! (note from Bob ”“ I planned a trip to CA to visit my parents. My ex-P got wind of the trip and talked me into staying with Dave and going out with her real estate agent to see homes ”“ I only agreed because the ex-P agreed to pay my airfare if I went along – manipulation)
6. Bob then proceeded to a short time later, after telling the kids we were all gonna live in Ca- where you live, wear Steve (Bob’s bro) lives- wear your dear parents live( I like your folks btw,your mom was nice to me) that he has decided to remain in Tx & they would not be moving. No real reason was given. (note from Bob ”“ after a month of thinking about moving I determined it was not in best interests of the children to move for ex-P’s love interest and for her to lead me around by the nose”“ no other reason was necessary)
7. Bob then proceeds to call an emergency hearing To mandate the kids stay put in Tx after she sells the house & we put a deposit on one out here. (note from Bob ”“ Angie filed emergency hearing, our house for sale had not yet received a single offer and there was no deposit put down on a house in CA ”“ a pack of lies ”“ do you get a discount on multiple lies??)
8. Ouch, burn. What a tangled web. He used me. He lied to me. He deceived everyone, except for a few people who knew what he was really up to. (Note from Bob ”“ alleged conspiracy to screw ex-P ”“ farthest thing from the truth ”“ this is the lie the ex-P has told people to turn against me)
9. Your bro then proceeds a War of attrition, after what was in the best interest for everyone he proceeds to Try to get my exwife to inform against me, which he soon found out there wasn’t anything to get. I’ll never forget her call describing him as an instigator who scared her. (note from Bob ”“ I contacted Dave’s ex prior to our custodial evaluation in summer 2007. She more than willingly spoke with me on multiple occasions and seamed rather scared of her ex which is why she lied to him about our conversations ”“ to protect herself)
10. Things have never been the same, as may quickly fwd this Email (note from Bob ”“ Dave had to short-sell his home and move in with ex-P and his business is suffering due to the economy ”“ he is trapped in his situation and blames me for creating it ”“ he sold his home after they knew I had no intentions of moving), Bob will start his bitter diatribes (over 3,000 at last count) all of you apparently have a lot of extra time on your hands with sending Emails of houses in escrow & bitter rhetoric about the woman I love. (note from Bob ”“ he surely has been provided only selective emails, most likely altered by the ex-P)
News flash: You all now have my undivided attention (note from Bob ”“ I perceive this a threat, not the first from him); Steve surprising them (Bob’s children) at SFO Airport wasnt very cool. Oh, I know he was just at the NEXT terminal & wanted to say HI, and now Bob has you intervening o his behalf over a conflict with Dan (former affair). Are you serious??
A “high level executive in the financial industry” getting in the middle of a word fight? Are we in 8th grade again? What would Sun Tzu think of that? (note from Bob ”“ my brother calmly and rationally ask Dan why he insists on being involved with children ”“ he sat back and let Dan have a tirade of 1 ½ have hours acussing me of this and that, cussing, calling me a pussy, calling my brother a pussy ”“ my brother just let him rant)
Look, I have taken the high road this whole time, I even invited Bob & Carla into our home this summer to look around & try to get some type of healing underway for this conflict that quite frankly I’m very comfortable saying he has caused. In fact you have all ganged up on her (note from Bob ”“ he invited us in the house when we were picking up my children only after my youngest son begged my wife to come see his bedroom at his mom’s home and Dave agreed”“ we were very uncomfortable with this)
repeatedly, made her a pariah, vilified her at every turn & where has it gotten you? (note from Bob ”“ My family has had no contact with the ex-P in five years ”“ so information he is receiving must be falsified)
More importantly it has affected the children greatly. You think Bob & Carla would invite me into their home? (note from Bob ”“ why would I invite someone with such great hostility and anger towards me into my home?) This all could have been so good for all of us. But it’s a war with your brother, one he has instigated & all of you have supported. It’s fruitless & a big waste of emotion. And all because of her infidelity-which as any mature adult is only a symptom of bigger issue that is not being resolved., but that’s a whole separate story neither you or I have any business in. (note from Bob ”“ ex-P has waged a campaign to her supporters that I am angry about her “affair”, which is why I do what is alleged of me) There is so little time on this earth to really enjoy whats important when it gets down to what matters most. Love, children, family, friends; I have watched this for to long & am sick of it. You getting involved is not a good idea, she divorced your brother not you. (note from Bob ”“ ex-P would not file for divorce, so I filed and divorced her ”“ another lie) SO please
don’t contact her or E-mail her anymore OK? In closing I have nothing against you or your family, we all need to enjoy our lives to the fullest, Omedetou on that Beverly Hills house, it looks amazing. I will & am keeping this correspondence mano a mano, I would ask you to do the same as a courtesy but you do whatever you see fit. I dont have any need to involve anyone else in this, tell Steve he is
welcome to see the kids anytime they are in Ca if he wishes to, just call first, I hope you can see my point.

Ki o tsukete,

I won’t have contact with this man, which is why my brother stepped in by calling Dan. By doing so, he truly exposed my ex-P ”“ but there is really little I can do with this, nor is there really a need. It would be nice to set the record straight with Dave, but that might crush his perception of my ex-P (the successful corporate executive with grandiose southern charm and superior intelligence), send him in a tailspin, and then he may come after me for ruining everything for him. Could be dangerous to me, my wife and kids.


Exposing the sociopath:

Yes, been there and done that. Was it effective? Yes and no.

His next victim, a “fiance” whom I had tried to warn (and of course in the honeymoon phase did not believe me) DID call me a year and a half later and said, “you were right, I should have listened to you”. There was some vindication in that.

But his few family members whom he has association with, believes that I (and all of his ex’s) are crazy, and that he attracts “crazies”. And they also believe that he is so good, kind, and generous that the “crazies” just want him for his money. Yes, the money that he embezzles, tax frauds, money launders, or acquires through deception.

Would I do it again (try to expose him)? I really don’t know. I had never had a time in my life (before his lies) where people didn’t believe me. I am a very open and candid person. He is more convincing at lying than I am at telling the truth. It was very hurtful to have people thinking ill of me, when I was innocent and speaking the truth.

Any time you are dealing with a sociopath, proceed with caution. The tables can turn on you at any moment, and they are vindictive and dangerous.

Best of luck to all of you, and happy holidays.



In my case, exposing her would only serve me. She is charming, charitable, successful, parties with the boys, slays the corporate dragons. Why would any of her supporters want to know what she really is? Why would I burst that bubble for my needs? Maybe it is more so my children see what she truly is, she has turned my oldest against me. But I guess that can wait until he is older and can more maturely reflect on her actions over the years.

Ox Drover

Dear AKA Bob,

Having “contact” even by sending someone else to interact with them, doesn’t seem to workk at all and this is why as much NC as possible seems to be the best way.

There is NO WAY they will be (1) fair (2) truthful (3) honest and their “dupes” will not listen to reason and all we accomplsih when we deal lwith them on a logical, truthful or reasonable way is to STIR CHIT and in the process we get it all over us. I wish I could say there was any way to deal with them and not get chhit on us.

I am in the process of hiring an attorney to go to my P son’s next parole hearing to otry to KEEP HIM IN PRISON, and to tell the PAROLE BOARD that he is a danger to others, including me. My “story” sounds like a “BAD MOVIE PLOT” and I know it. Even though the attorney I talked to yesterday is an HONEST ONE, and a CARING one (not just faking that, he really is an honest attorney and a caring one) just telling the story knocked ME INTO THE PITS OF EMOTIONS AND CRYING AND SHAKING. I went into a tail spin. I can only imagine what would have happened if this man I was talking to had been nasty to me, or uncaring etc.

Fortunately, this attorney KNOWS WHAT A PSYCHOPATH IS AND CARES. Yet, just the telling of the tale to someone I was trying to convince (he got it quickly) still threw me into a deep abyss of despair and emotional pain.

As much as we would like to defend our reputations and so on, I think usually the best deal is to just LET IT SLIDE.

I feel that in order to protect my own life (LITERALLY) I must keep my son in prison and the ONLY way to do that is to hire an attorney to present my side of the issue to the parole board and hope that they will listen.

I did learn something though, and that is that I am SO emotionally involved in it that I cannot PERSONALLY speak to them because I would sound like a raviing lunatic, I cannot control my emotions enough to be an EFFECTIVE speaker before them. So I have to have someone else deliver my message for me. So at least my descent into the abyss last night did teach me that much and I will let someone else do the speaking. So as painful as yesterday was, it did teach me something about strategy and that is that I am not capable of doing the speaking. How much better than if I had tried to do the talking myself and FAILED and he had gotten out because of my poor strategy.

It is almost a year before his parole hearing comes up and I am starting “early” so I can have this behind me getting all the ducks in a row, but I am now prepared for this to be a very painful process. One I will do, but painful none the less.


“I did learn something though, and that is that I am SO emotionally involved in it that I cannot PERSONALLY speak to them because I would sound like a raviing lunatic, I cannot control my emotions enough to be an EFFECTIVE speaker before them.”

When I first saw my attorney seeking a divorce, she was adamant that I see a therapist. It was a good idea for the very reason described above.

I like to think that I am past the emotions of all of what has and continues to occur, it has been going on for years. However, my wife begs to differ with me. She sees and points out my anxiety in awaiting the next email from the ex-P responding to something I write concerning our children, our finances or some other reason that I must communicate with the ex-P.

This past weekend my wife and I met some friends out at a bar where our favorite band was playing. My wife was pre-occupied with one of our friends as another woman who anxiously looked like she was looking for her partner walked by (actually was trying to flee someone). I somehow casually struck up conversation with her (into a few beers at that point) for a few minutes, I guess she felt safe from this man in talking with me. When finished, my wife read me the riot act. Not because I was speaking with another woman, but because I told her “my life story” (her words). My wife angers that I on occasion read LoveFraud and post to the blog. She says we have confirmed what she is, why keep going back for more affirmation. Can someone speak to that point, because I don’t have the answer.

You think you are over it all, and you jump right in with the opportunity to tell your story to a complete stranger, sometimes not even aware you have gone back to the dark side. I guess no one wants to hear it unless they are reading these blogs, and my wife would like to feel I am over it all and have moved past that part of my past, even knowing that we have to interact with the ex-P on any given day. After re-evaluating the situation, she was right and when conversing with others I need to speak about the present day and future and not dredge up the misery my ex-P continues to inflict on our lives in the past or present. It is a boring story to those who don’t have a P in their lives.

I find when I do reconnect with old friends, especially those who knew my ex-P but are unaware of our story, I sound like a raving lunatic as well with that opportunity to tell them what psycho and pathological liar she is. We need to learn to bite our tongues, but we all know what these P’s do to us sometimes can bring out that dark side in us. We possibly subconsciously do it to obtain further affirmation from another party. I think we all get the affirmation we need at this site, but sometimes we just can’t help ourselves.

Ox Drover

Dear AKA Bob,

Your post is so thoughtful and thought provoking too.

99.9% of the time I am OK, and my life is good, and I do well, and posting here on this blog doesn’t get my anxiety up, but you are right, if I do tell my ‘story” to someone, even someone I know, I realize now I SOUND LIKE A RAVING LUNATIC!

A few months ago I ran into a minister friend of my egg donors and I immediately launced inito my “story” right there in the grocery store (I hadn’t seen him in 5 years) and told him what all was happening, and had happened with my egg donor sending money to my P son and how she had devalued and discarded me in favor of the Trojan Horse psychopath (until he had gone to prison) and my now X DIL (this whole thing sounds like the unbelieveable plot of a B movie) and he stood gaping, as he had known our family for nearly 40 years and didn’t even know my P son was in prison.

He then said “why didn’t you call me, I would have talked to your mother?” Then he wanted PROOF of all this, which I had, and xeroxed copies of the documents and the letters proving all this “plot” and then went to his house with WITNESSES from my egg donor’s church and told him the story again, and HE DIDN’T BELIEVE A WORD I SAID, even with the DOCUMENTS and the PROOF. He did NOTHING to help. then got huffy and accused me of being “bitter” and so on. Well, I realize NOW (thanks to the attorney I talked to yesterday) that I SOUND LIKE A RAVING NUT CAKE and by sounding that way, I make the story unbelieveable and myself appear NUTS.

Of course your wife does NOT udnerstand because she was NOT as emotionally bonded to this woman P as you were, and sshe IS ABLE TO MOVE ON, but because of the TRAUMA WE hve suffered, the changes to the chemistry of our brains, it is almost imposssible for us to be 100% desensitized from these things.

I had EMDR (“rapid eye movement and desensitation therapy) and it HELPED BIG TIME, but it did not “fix” me “good or better as new” I still have residual triggers and also a need for validation of my story. Validation of my trauma.

I get that at LF. I get it from my sons, but I do NOT get it from those that cannot truly relate to what I went through by having similar experiences.

It is why AA works for many because another booze addict truly understands the need for the drinking. NO one else can truly understand and truly empathize.

I know your wife means well, but so do our friends who love us, but THEY DO NOT TOTALLY “GET IT”—I was amazed at this attorney saying “your son sounds like a psychopath” before I had said the word. HE GETS IT, and though he did not share it with me, i will be willing to bet the farm that he has had a personal run in with one or more in his life. He truly GETS it.

He is also gutsy enough to tell me the TRUTH about how I came off even talking to him, and putting that together with my experience with the un-sympathetic minister, I KNOW NOW that I must NOT blow my chance, my one chance at th eparole board by trying to tell my story myself. I realize my INABILITY to do it and sound rational, even though I am TRYING as hard as I can.

I am actually a gifted public speaker, and have done a great deal of it in my life, but NOT ABOUT THIS. I am too emotionally raw when I start to tell that story verbally. Some how writing it doesn’t rev up my blood pressure the way telling it does, and THIS PRESENTATION TO THE PAROLE BOARD IS VERY IMPORTANT, and that will rev me up even more.

I’ve wondered why I have stayed here on LF for 2+ years, actually I think the summer of 07 was when I came here, and maybe those people who have left here and “moved on” are in better shape than I am, maybe LF has become my “emotional pacifier” that I use to keep my emotions in check, I’m not sure what it is, but I know that as long as I am HERE I am safe, I can think about ME (even more than about them) and say on the road toward healing and sanity and the good life. My real live off this blog is good, and I don’t have my emotions up and down like a yo yo like I used to have, but I am like you, Bob, there is still some part of me that can be TRIGGERED, a need for validation, or something….and it turns me into a ‘raving lunatic”—maybe someday this story won’t be so “dramatic” to me, or “traumatic” either, but in the meantime, I will do my best to keep my emotions on an even keel, and heal at my OWN RATE, and not let someone else’s idea of how or when I should heal make me feel bad about not healign faster or better. I know my judgment is better, my life is better than before all this even started. I’ve made what I think is remarkable progress in my life.

So I am going to continue to work on ME, and that includes accepting that somethings about me are still just “scabbed” over, and I still have more work to do.

I imagine that having to deal with your X because of your children must be a trauma too, Bob. But hang in there, you ARE on the way to healing, and I think recognizing these things about ourselves that are easily triggered, allows us to work on those things as well. Happy holidays! And thanks for the insight.

We both go to the same mental health centre. It horrifies me to think of how vulnerable the other women there are to him. But if I try to explain to people, I become the harridan, the screaming rejected vengeful women. And he is so very charming, polite, kind and thoughtful. He has a very posh accent, too, which shouldn’t matter in this day and age, but does (mine is working class and northern English – which I’m proud of, by the way!) After the last stupid confrontation I engineered, I told him off for flirting so much when he is supposed to be gay (not out – really he’s bi). He said: “Flirting is fun and no one gets hurt.” “What about me?” I shouted. Because it started there – all that flirting, which to him is simply “fun” (his favourite word) but which to vulnerable women seems like an honest expression of desire and affection. When he said no one gets hurt, he meant HE didn’t get hurt. So it won’t stop and he’ll do it all over again because he doesn’t care about the pain he causes with his “fun”.

It makes me so weary. But we are Cassandras, with these people – no one believes our prophesies. And I’m sure every time Cassandra went around screaming, “Beware! Beware!” people just said, “Oh, shut that mad old bat up.”

Wish I could snap my fingers and send him to Australia. People seem tougher there. Also, the accent wouldn’t impress them at all. And I’d be free.


Funny my S also puts on a posh accent. If you don’t appear emotional I’m sure you can convince, though. Better if you have some evidence, as always. If it doesn’t seem to work, well, at least you’ve planted the seed of doubt and that’s one thing. If I had been given a warning of that type I would have taken it seriously.


re accents –
the spath HAS A WHOOOOLE bunch of them…wild to be able to pull that off hour after hour, day after day.

quite a talent actually.

I know, cause she talked to me in two AND she’s on youtube. snort! (as herself (???) after she was outed by the friends of one of her dupes. they filmed her ‘eviction’ from their friends house)


My ex-P is originally from the deep South. She has been gone from the south for 20+ years, lived on both East and West coasts since and normally and in business you might faintly hear an accent, if any. But when it is time to charm, social hour, cocktail party, a couple drinks, she puts it on real thick.

Ox Drover

Dear Bob,

I grew up with a thick Arkansas accent (there are two different ones in this state, I got the “hill billy” one) and lived on both coasts long enough that when I would call home my egg donor would have an “accent” to me. So I am bi-linguial as well. I speak both hill billy and English. LOL

And which one depends on who I am talking to. I don’t do this on purpose, but did it almost automatically, and friends and family pointed this out to me, but it is just “natural” to lapse into the hill billy accent and phrases when I am with the locals here and to speak more “correct” less-accented English when I sm speaking to someone who is not local.

My accent, however, is not the slow, peach syrup southern drawl but more of a Texas Whang, as the people who settled Texas were generally of the same Scots-Irish stock from which I sprang—in fact, studies in the Ozark hills on language show that until the 1940s it was almost a pure Elizabethean English with specific words from that era, including “hit” (with an H) for it, and very few foreign words in the vocabularly, one being Kraut and the other one “doney girl” meaning sweet heart which was probably from Spanish “Donna.”

Television and radio have of course changed some of the local accent and added new words and phrases, but some of the old times still speak in a very thick dialect which I do understand and speak as well when I am communicating with them. Having hung around with a lot of very elderly friends of my grandparents as a child, I grew up hearing it from people born not long after the civil war who had not been exposed to many people from “the city” or wider culture.

It is funny though how some Ps use or try to use, their accents as part of this fake personna they want to project.


Amber, I did out my S-ex. He would also drink and drive and smoked marijuana regularly. He was a middle school PE teacher and coached 7th grade girls basketball. He smoked marijuana all the time. When I asked him how he could do that and drive a school bus filled with children, he just laughed. I called the central office in Concord, NC until they listened to me. At first, he told them I was crazy, harrassing him and that I stalked him. When he bragged about this to me, I really got pissed. I called again and told the personel director of his inappropriate use of the school computer and when they found out what he was really up to, they let him finish out the year and forced him to retire. I have the two page letter they wrote to him calling him a liar, cheating the system, etc. It was priceless. They also found out about his arrest for DWI. That letter is priceless to me. I read it often especially when I feel the need to “out” him some more. I’m glad I forced others to see him for what he was. I even send copies of e-mails from him begging me to come back to his x-wife and children who all thought I was the crazy one. Now they know better. His daughter called my home and admitted he was a user and a liar. It felt good to out him. It would feel better if he were dead, would just go away forever. He is the lowest scum of the earth and I loved this evil bastard. No more. It’s taking me a while to come out of a deep, dark depression and to function again but I am at least living now and interacting witih normal people, good people who aren’t constantly trying to manipulate me. I say, if you can “out” him safely and in a way it will not be harmful to you, do it!!!!!!! It feels great, I have to admit. Then again, is he worth the energy it takes to do it. It was for me but I don’t dwell on it anymore. I exposed him. He deserved it.

Ox Drover

Dear X-victim,

I cannot believe the school gave him an “out” to “retire” when they knew he was doing things to endanger the children. Sheesh! Protect the bad guy just so we can not have to expose him even when there is evidence. That makes my blood boil!

I am glad that you did expose him though! And that you were at least able to get him away from the kids. I hope his x wife and family see him for what he is too.

I hope he didn’t molest any of those students either. There is no depth to which they will not sink.

I am glad that you are going on to a new life and without him. Don’t be so hard on yourself for being conned though, they are good at what they do most of the time. There are some pretty bright people here who have been conned, so we are in “good company.” (((hugs))) and Happy holidays Oxy

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