Editor’s note: Lovefraud received the following email from a reader whom we’ll call “Maryjane.”
If your husband, whom you found out had affairs all during your marriage, had a child with his secretary, paid her hush money, came onto your mother, grandmother, and another sister, told you that he had an affair with your sister ”¦ during the time frame that you were readying for divorce, would you believe him? Also, this man gambled away most all the money in the marriage on football and golf betting (at a country club that you were the member of, not him, as he ran up bills) and was an alcoholic ”¦
And at the time, that piece of info about your sister, was just a part of the entire hurtful mess and too much to process ”¦ while he was also telling you that he loves you and will never cheat again ”¦ and of course, you don’t believe him. You were just trying to process the insanity of it all. Then you were both at your parents’ house and you walked into the laundry room to find this husband and that sister, whispering and snuggling ”¦
And you got furious. even screamed. and went in a made a big to do about what you had seen to your parents ”¦ and this sister, the manipulator, liar of the century, said that you were crazy and that she didn’t know what you were talking about and pointed out that you were overly emotional as usual.
During the divorce, you were cleaning out your husband’s dresser drawers and found a nude photo of this sister in the bottom of his ‘junk’ drawer ”¦ taken during the time, (junk alright, huh?), this sister had lived with you in another state, for three months, eight years previously. And the nude photo was taken on her bed at her apartment that was a short distance from where you lived.
The divorce was awarded to you on extreme mentally cruelty in a no fault divorce state ”¦ and you kept the part about ‘your sister’ out of the court proceedings to ‘protect your family’ ”¦ as you were embarrassed to have such immoral, incestuous, crassness in your own family, on top of the obvious embarrassment and hurt of the rest of it.
After the divorce and during a time, you were ready to address it ”¦ you told your parents about it ”¦ and they couldn’t/wouldn’t believe it ”¦
You see, this sister was the mother of their ‘grandchildren,’ and you were a divorced woman going through pain and not much fun to be around ”¦ And your parents were all about drinking and partying and you were dealing with issues and things that they didn’t want to ever think about, much less acknowledge happened in their family ”¦
These parents were both alcoholics and lived in denial about most everything that occurred with their children and in their lives ”¦ as in one sister being on drugs and having manic episodes. When you told them that she was doing drugs, they didn’t believe you then either. Until ”¦ Gee! It was proven to be true ”¦ and after many episodes, she is diagnosed as being bipolar.
So, you were the truth teller, the one in pain ”¦ the one who saw and the one who was crushed under affairs, lying, alcoholism ”¦ and instead of comfort and caring ”¦ you got disbelief and alienation ”¦
And you suffered it all while being sober, because you don’t drink or do drugs.
The sister who you were told had an affair with your husband began to excluded you from family ‘get togethers’ ”¦ as in her children’s birthday parties ”¦ and pretty soon, you weren’t invited to anything ”¦ because you represented something that no one wanted to look at. She needed to keep you away, because she knew that you knew the truth ”¦ so you were dangerous to the facade that she tried so hard to create and to keep intact.
You moved to another state and during this time, this sister had another affair with a married man ”¦ actually, she has had many with married men that you knew about. But this one almost caused her to lose her license, because it went against professional ethics ”¦ even as she took this husband of another woman to ‘church’ with her.
Your father finally told you that he knew you were telling the truth ”¦ but what could he do? That it was between you girls ”¦
And you responded, “So you let her exclude me when she was the one who did this to me and all the while you knew the truth?” And he shrugged as he took another drink of wine ”¦
You see he had affairs on your mother all throughout their marriage, and you even overheard one talking on the phone to your father while you were in high school, telling him that she missed and loved him and calling him by name ”¦
He knew that you overheard and said that it was a wrong number ”¦
But of course, it wasn’t. And he eventually told you that he was thinking about leaving your mother because he loved this woman and he had been unhappy in the marriage for years. And as hurt as you felt, you could kind of understand this, because your mother was given a prefrontal lobotomy when you were two years old and she was not much of a companion on many levels. And because of her lack of affect and diminished capacity, you and she did not get along well at all. Because you are artistic, emotional, strong and outgoing and she was weak, dependant and most times, not even present. You can’t even recall having a real conversation with her. But being true to your mother, you tell your dad, that if he leaves her you will never speak to him again ”¦
After all, was she really insane, or was it post partum depression ”¦ or did your Dad drive her crazy by his criticizing and neglect?
You were angry at both your dad and your mother ”¦ and while needing their love, lost respect for them both as your heart broke into a million pieces. Nothing was as it seemed in your family. It was mostly all façade ”¦
Your dad didn’t leave, but continued his womanizing, while giving the ‘image’ of the ‘good family man’ ”¦ Even your friends at high school knew about it and would make snide remarks ”¦ You withdrew into yourself, your room, your friends and ballet to survive. But your family made fun of you for dancing. They made fun of you for everything you liked and did, especially ‘that’ sister.
For about 30 years, you are excluded from most all ‘family things’ led by this sister ”¦ who now wore a mantel of a ‘church woman,’ letting her hair go gray and becoming fatter and uglier by the year, and claimed her ‘best friend’ was a shriveled-up old Bishop ”¦ who hung around your family like some kind of a leech ”¦ Your father befriends this old Bishop and took him on extravagant trips.
And during this time, your father on several occasions told you that there is a part of him that wished he had left your mother when she had her breakdown and taken you with him, and that he wished you were his only child.
That he knew that sister had always treated you with hate and animosity, and had done everything she could to harm your life. He called her a big dumbass broad ”¦ which both made you chuckle and cringe at how cruel, duplicitous and sordid your father was.
After your mother died, your father had affair, after affair, after affair, with women young enough to be his daughters, while he claimed this Bishop was his ‘spiritual advisor.’ All of these women were golddiggers, whorish types, and you told him so. And he got angry at you for telling him the truth ”¦ said that you were always causing problems. You only saw your father on occasion, because you couldn’t stand being around these women, the drinking, and the squandering of money, but your sisters participated in it all. At ‘that’ sister’s son’s wedding you weren’t included, but the current golddigger in your Father’s life was. But then after he realized what the women were, he admonished, “Why didn’t you tell me?” and he dumped them.
Your Dad is dead now ”¦ and in his later years, because of ill health, he stopped so much with the drinking, but after a lifetime of it, was a dry drunk. He would tell you on occasion how much you meant to him, and that you were always right and always told the truth, and you heard back from others that he thought you his most beautiful, brightest, deserving and moral child”¦
Your sisters ignored you, were hateful to you, or many times, actually cruel, especially the one who had an affair with your first husband ”¦ They claimed that they don’t know what’s wrong with you when you got angry, and said you were emotional and always played the victim.
What would you do and what would you think?
Annie:
I understand…I’ll shut up 🙂
People feel how they feel…it’s OK…whatever…
Annie, it isn’t about GIVING THEM the forgiveness it is DOING IT FOR YOURSELF. They don’t even know that you have done it. It is getting the BITTERNESS out of your heart. It is FOR YOU not for them. They could care less if you “forgive” them or not….but you dont’ want to remain BITTER in your heart, I don’t think, what does that gain YOU?
My egg donor tried to cram the “forgiveness=pretending it didn’t happen and restoring trust”—-and to that I say NOOOOOO WAY JOSE!!!! No squishy feeling for them, no trust, just releasing the bitterness, they don’t even deserve that from me…they deserve NOTHING and by releasing the bitterness I am more able to approach the NIRVANA OF INDIFFERENCE. Literally NOT CARING a fig whether they live or die. No glee if they croak it, but no sadness either, just INDIFFERENCE. It is a difficult reach I know, but it can be done. Now I will shut up! LOL
@Oxy: “My mother (egg donor) did not love me, my P sperm donor also didn’t love me either. Not my fault. I deserved to be loved, you deserved to be loved.
We have to I think learn to validate ourselves and the wrongs we have been done.
The healing starts out by us recognizing what THEY ARE, and then working on accepting that, and healing our selves. Good luck and God bless.”
I think this point of Oxy’s is so critical, and seems to be the critical step missing from Maryjane’s story. And, I might add, this goes against most of the standard therapy dogma, which is that you can’t diagnose someone else not in the room and shouldn’t try!
I saw therapist after therapist who told me that. Not ONE of them ever mentioned psychopathy, sociopathy, narcissism, and most especially sadism (my mother is a sadist). I’m so furious over all those lost years of trying to deal with this solely from the perspective of my behaviour. No wonder I felt crazy. Everyone here on LF knows that the only way to find your way out of the madness of living with a severely disordered person is to understand what you’re dealing with. If you’re with people who genuinely love you but are struggling with their own issues, then sticking around and investing in the relationship – but from a safe distance so that you’re not swallowed up by their ‘stuff’ – is one thing. But we all know here that sticking around to try to work things out with a psychopath is, in the words of the documentary “I, Psychopath” “its own kind of madness.”
Re: forgiveness. I have no issue with how anyone feels about forgiveness, and I appreciate what you’re saying Oxy, I know you’re coming from a good place. And I will admit I’m a bit prickly about it.
It’s just that I’ve seen the word ‘forgiveness’ brandished as an admonishment – and even a weapon – against people who are hurting so many times that I’m beginning to view it as another weapon in the path arsenal. One pattern I’ve started to see is that, for some reason for this word far more than any other, the words “this is how I feel” or “this is how I think” rarely precede any discussion of forgiveness – on both sides of the argument. There appears to be an implied “this is how you should feel” in most of the discussions which, bizarrely, contradicts the points many of the posters are trying to make about forgiveness in the first place.
Maryjane,
I hear a lot of bad excuses for bad behavior-from them, not you.
Please, try six or eight meetings of Al-Anon. It’s free. (They do pass the hat for donations, but if you don’t have to contribute.)
Try to go as often as possible. Two or three times a week as opposed to once a week or every other week.
Some people do a “90 in 90.” That’s going to a meeting every day for three months.
I went to a meeting six times a week (on the 7th I did laundry, cleaning, and grocery shopping) for six months.
I couldn’t get enough. I was a dry sponge that needed what they had to give.
Try different meetings because each has its own personality.
Some people feel more comfortable in smaller meetings because they like the intimacy, some people like large meetings because they like being around a lot of people or being able to stay hidden in a crowd.
Good luck!
Annie, I’ve said everything that you said. Been saying it for years. You are not alone on those points.
Did you ever see what I wrote here on forgiveness?
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2012/03/29/another-view-on-forgiveness/
Thanks G1S.
Yes, I really appreciated that article. In fact, I thought it was so good I sent it to the Oprah show (long story, not relevant to this discussion).
This exchange has helped me to remember that, as soon as I hear anyone use the word “forgiveness”, I need to step back and take a deep breath.
You know, I don’t think I’ve seen any term so contentious as the word ‘forgiveness’. Bizarre that THIS is the word many of choose to ‘get into it’ with each other.
“The healing starts out by us recognizing what THEY ARE, and then working on accepting that, and healing our selves. Good luck and God bless.”
Hi, thank you all for your comments. I think what is hitting me strong is that I am actually and really realizing what I have been dealing with and seeing them for what they are and accepting it. Instead of trying to believe the facade that we are this wonderful successful family and that my Dad was some kind of a ‘great’ man because he was successful on some levels. After his death. a person who had known our family for years asked me.”So is it a good thing or a bad thing that he is gone? I always hated your father and what he did to you girls and your mother. He was an asshole.” That hit me again as to how not liked my father was my many.. at the funeral they went on about what a success he was that he had married the love of his life and they was married for 55 years. How he help so many people and that Bishop was his spiritual mentor. It was hard for me to sit there listing to it. My Dad did have good points but the harm he did was much expecially to me. One of the last things he said to me was. “You are my favorite child. I wish that you had been my only child.” It felt nice hearing that and also strange. I felt sorry for my sisters. THey have always hated me and perhaps, feeling how Dad felt for me was a reason for it. The sister who had the affair with my first husband told me one night while she was drunk “Dad, will always love you the best no matter what I do.” I didn’t think much about it then but as life went on I see the motivation behind her evil. Forgive.. the only way to forgive is to see who they really are and to try and understand what caused their actions and harm. But the truest statement is .. that I now see what they really are. I lived in denial for most all my life. I tried to be sweeter, kinder, more good, look pretty, but caring, respectful, honest, anything to make me feel like something wasn’t ‘wrong’ with me for them to treat me so terribly. When it wasn’t about me .. it is about them. They are immoral, lost, cruel, unhappy, greedy, snaky, slimy people… My Dad was a complete Narcissist and loved no one but himself. His family was his facade of people a good successful man.. while he did exactly as he wanted to.. I do understand whatever happened tomy mother made it rough and he did stay with her and provide well for her. But we all pretended she was ‘normal’ when she wasn’t. The sister who cheats and treats me the worst is a psycholgist and is them most twisted hateful person you will ever meet and she hides behind the mantel of the church maybe she is trying to heal herself.. but it appears false to me. Your reponses are helping me. It is time for me to REALLY see who these people are.. and to cut them out of my life and to stop trying to pretent , to reach out and ot think I will get anything more than the same. They are snakes and will never do anything but bite me.
Maryjane:
Wow, a powerful post and you are getting it. I am getting there, too. Why can’t we all realize it is NOT about us and how bad we are…it is about THEM. Everything that they have done and will do that is harmful to us is because they are messed up, they are damaged. It is NOT because we are bad or not pretty enough or smart enough or whatever…it is all about THEM and really nothing about us. Why can’t we all see that? We would all feel so much better if we could just accept that one big part in all that has happened in our lives.
Healings to you Maryjane…you have so much to sort out…it sounds very painful. Your dad really did a number on your family, but I can see how your sister was hurt also because she could see that her dad didn’t really love her…wow, it is all so twisted and seems like everyone was hurt so much by that one man. So sorry 🙁
I have been to Alanon, therapists, psychologists, read books, etc.. all my life… They all helped in some ways.. the best thing that occurred was when I moved to a different state and have been away from them for 25 years. I think the death of my Father will be my final healing. I won’t have to deal with him or inteact with my sisters after things are settled. In his later years my Dad hated to be alone. One of his fears was to be alone. He paid for love and sqaundered money to help people and to keep them around him. He did help some sure.. but he squandered a ton of money and people took advantage of him. If you flattered him, he loved you and if you told him the truth you were attacking him or a bad person. But he told me in his later years, That I always tell the truth and that I am always right. And that meant something tome.. that at least, he did see me. Because I have always tried so hard to be good.. and yes, I married men just like my Dad in many ways, even as I tried so hard to get away from alchoholism, cheaters and that kind of a lifestyle. I think forgiveness occurs when you can see the good and the bad in the person and really see who they are. I need to really see what and who he was and to not glamorize his life. but at the sametime see the talent and good things about him. He was dealing with his demons. He grew up very poor and always felt less than so he lived his life trying to be more than.. bigger than life… he never really dealt with his demons but tried to drown them out by drinking, spending and women..
He hurt me terribly.. my sisters are terrible damaged. And they all hate me and it’s not my fault. I am dealing with my issues with him, my mother and them and they show me no regard.
(((Maryjane)))
Congrats to you for starting to put it together, and for having the courage to write out your story and put it up on LF.
If you’re at all like me, once I had my eyes opened to the truth I was living with I immediately felt completely defenseless (which I was at the time, but I’m not now!) It was a WTF? moment. I needed to learn some self-defense skills – and fast. LF helped out a lot.
In case you’re looking for some resources, a book I found extremely helpful is: “In Sheep’s Clothing” by George K. Simon. Particularly chapters 9 & 10. He gives a detailed description of the manipulation techniques used by ‘covert aggressives’ in Chapter 9, and a list of self-defense techniques in Chapter 10. Can’t praise that book enough! Oxy also recommends his newest book “Character Disturbance” (she did a review of it on LF); I’ve bought it but haven’t read it yet.
Also, I’ve just started reading “Children of the Self-Absorbed” by Nina Brown, written for the children of narcissists. One thing I really appreciate is that over half the book is dedicated to Protective and Coping strategies. I’m not far enough into it to give it a rating, but what I’ve read so far I’m really impressed with.
I’m sure others here can give you so many resources you won’t know where to turn next! But posting your story here was surely a great start. Kudos to you!
When someone treats you badly it is about them and not you..
If a man cheats it’s his doing, you didn’t cause it.
If a man drinks, you didn’t cause it.
If you are abused you didn’t cause it.
I always thought it was because of me. I spent my whole life trying to be better and it had nothing to do with me.. I tried to be better and worthy for those who weren’t worthy of me.. they betrayed me on all levels. I even wondered that if it was my fault that my mother had a breakdown after I was born. Did my birth cause it. I think my father tried to blame me too. My family tries to blame me for most everything. My dad also told me that no man would marry me unless it was for his money and once he told me that he wished I was never born and another that I should just kill myself. In ways my father was a monster.