Mary Ann Glynn, LCSW: Why We Don’t Believe in Badness

By Mary Ann Glynn, LCSW, located in Bernardsville, New Jersey

Throughout graduate school for social work, when the professors were teaching us about how to establish a working therapeutic relationship with a client, they repeatedly drove into us to “have unconditional positive regard for the client.” Implied in that phrase is the stance that we cannot accurately help someone we have prejudged. We learned first and foremost to see the valuable human being behind the behavior, to have compassion, and understand the reasons that brought a person to their present circumstance, even if it is criminal behavior.

People in the helping profession are there in the first place because they are hopeful about making a difference through their work and tend to be optimistic about the processes that make that happen. Therapists believe that people can be honest with themselves and effect change in their lives. We see it happen before our eyes. We believe in the core goodness of human beings.

We see the good in others

Even if you’re not in a helping profession, you were probably raised with values that directed you to treat other people well and see the good in them. We are taught early on to be “nice” to others. If our sibling or friend hurt us, we were trained to make up with them. Most of us are taught that if a rift happens between us and someone else, we should take an honest look at ourselves and take responsibility for our part, not blame the other person. Many of us are raised with ideals, religious or otherwise, of forgiveness and non-judgment, which foster the idea that others should be valued and regarded with compassion and understanding. We should overlook a person’s faults as much as possible. We are taught to “listen to our conscience” to know when we’re doing something wrong. And, if we find we are doing something wrong, then we should change it to the better or right thing. It is expected to think that all humans have this same social concept of a conscience.

Bad behavior in movies

As Americans, we have all been influenced in our perceptions of criminals and bad behavior by movies and TV shows. Scripts are written to be layered, so they will usually show background psychology of why a person has gone wrong, always including some type of brutality or hardship from their past. If you have any heart at all, you have probably felt some compassion for this person. These portrayals encourage that same concept I ingested in graduate school, that people are inherently good. People start out good, and if they do bad things, it is because circumstances have molded them. So, wouldn’t it follow that with the right help or rehabilitation, they could resurrect that good person who got lost along the way?

We do tend to draw the line of redemption before the extreme savagery of, say, a serial killer, a “grudge collector” who opens fire at a crowd or schoolroom, or a terrorist — what the media may refer to as a “psychopath.” A show like “Criminal Minds” makes no bones in graphically portraying the savagery of the sadistic killer, making it hard to perceive that behavior as anything but evil. But, when the show traces his path from abused or neglected child to adult killer, in spite of ourselves, we can feel a twinge of pity for him. It is in the nature of people with consciences to feel empathy, if for no other reason that s/he is a human being like we are.

To make matters worse, we are raised on endless movies about the “bad boy,” or girl, turning around through the power of another’s love, romantic or otherwise. They inspire our faith in humanity. Some of these stories are even true. We cut our teeth on movies like “Beauty and the Beast” and “Aladdin,” driving home the “diamond in the rough” theme, that encourage us in the belief that people are inherently good and are capable of change. They affirm our belief in love.

Hard to accept evil

It’s easier for us to accept badness on a grand scale. There are a multitude of examples throughout recorded history of tyrants dehumanizing or annihilating people in their ruthless grasps for power, and on a lesser scale, cults. We have no problem calling this “evil.” We may understand people like that as having gotten too much power that has clearly corrupted their conscience. But, a regular individual in society must have that core of human goodness that can be turned around. Aren’t they the same as we are? So, they can change, too, right?

We don’t even like to judge people as bad or “evil.” That feels a little evil itself, doesn’t it, because of how we are taught to not judge and give a person the benefit of the doubt?! We don’t consider that everything in nature and psychology is on a spectrum, including the gradations of human evil. We certainly do not recognize evil in that disarming and charming person right before our eyes. Because we’ve been conditioned to believe in the inherent goodness of humanity, and that hope springs eternal, we don’t recognize danger behind those eyes of love. We don’t second-guess love.

This is why we are so we are so completely surprised at the devastation wreaked in our lives once those eyes target us.

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DONNA, this is a terrific article. YES, we are taught to make things nice, at all costs, and to “look at their point of view.” In reference to spaths, this becomes pathological thinking because the inference is to accept the blame for another person’s actions. Somehow, we failed to “understand” these people, and that’s why we’re hurt.

Well, the truth is that some people are “bad people.” I don’t like it. I don’t “have” to like this fact. Whether I accept it, or not, won’t change this fact. So, then it comes down to a choice for me: accept the facts, or not.

I once didn’t second-guess “love.” In my previous life, when someone said the words, “I love you,” I believed that they meant it because I would not utter those words unless I meant them. The person that I am, today, recognizes that “evil” exists in the forms of parents, siblings, children and offspring, friends, coworkers, lawmakers, religious leaders, friends, and professionals. I still may balk at this fact, but it’s a fact, nonetheless.

Once again, I’ve read what I need to read WHEN I needed to read it. Thank you, Donna!

Brightest blessings


My spath has said these words:




Can I ask you something? Would YOU ever say these things? Ever? Under any circumstances? To anybody?

Why would anybody say those things?

“Somebody has to die”
– because he feels that it’s true, to give him some relief.

“I will ruin your life”
– because that’s his intent, it’s his goal
– because he thinks that might happen, an accidential outcome
– because he thinks he’s that powerful

“I am evil”
– because he thinks he is?

I am blown away by these statements. I am trying to figure out what they mean. But then, they were spoken by a spath.
So, flip a coin, because a spath IS a lie. Any words that come out are garden salad. Nonsense. Lies.

I think.


Ox Drover

Mary Ann,, thank you for this thought provoking article…I was just prior to logging on here and reading your article, I was reading the NYTimes article about the little girl in Pakistan who was shot in the head by the Taliban because she was a proponent of education for girls. As I read that article I kept thinking “A CULTURE of psychopathy”—an entire culture of hate and evil. Maybe those men (and women?) who are brought up to believe that God wants them to do this kind of thing in His name are not entirely “evil” or unreachable, and yet….it makes me wonder.

Being a Registered Nurse Practitioner I also had drummed into my head that I must be totally non judgmental about a patient, I must realize that their “lifestyle” was theirs and that I must accept them with unconditional positive regard.

Having been raised in a home where I was required to accept other people’s bad behavior with “unconditional positive regard” this came fairly easy to me. Also as a child of the 60s, the “love generation” of “flower children” I was also tolerant of “alternate life styles.”

However, as I have matured I have learned to be judgmental

I have learned that I am not required to accept bad behavior toward me or anyone else with “unconditional positive regard”

Fortunately, I am retired, so this change in attitude does not effect my professional life. But come to think of it, I have “fired” medical patients in the past who were repeatedly non-compliant with treatment to the point of endangering their lives and whom I “encouraged” to find another provider as I was “not able to help” them.

In my personal life now, I set firm boundaries…and I do not believe that “everyone deserves a second (or third or fourth) chance”—I do not believe that there is good in everyone–I do not believe that everyone can change.

I now accept full responsibility for my own choices, choices that got me into a lot of hot water by believing false things…by believing that there is good in everyone, that all people can change if you are accepting enough and model good behavior….I made those choices to try to effect changes in those psychopaths around me. Now I realize I made poor choices based on false beliefs and I have changed my beliefs and am now operating on a different level of choices.

maybe the correct word is not “judgemental” but rather, “discerning”.

God judges us. We discern what or who is good for us or not.

Mary Ann, all your points are right on. I can relate to each.
Add to that our own integrity. We function as whole individuals who behave according to our stated beliefs. We were not brought up to believe that there are so many hypocrites out there who lead double lives, have split personalities, lie about everything and generally are dr jeckyll and mr. hyde.


Believing that all people are inherently good is something we choose to believe. We learned that belief and we can “unlearn” it as well.

What taught us that everybody is born good? Wishful thinking? I can’t think of anything.

There are plenty of instances suggesting that everybody has a chance to be bettered, but what specifically has taught us that everyone is born good or that all people can be improved are facts? I cannot think of anything.

We can reach those conclusions by inference, but I have never seen any evidence proving that either is a fact.

Believing that nobody is born evil and that everybody can be made into a “better” person give the general population a sense of security, but it is a false sense of security in my estimation.

Once upon a time, we could believe such things because people were born, lived their lives, and died within small geographical areas. Our worlds were very small. We knew our neighbors and we knew what was abnormal for our homes. A bad person stood out. If the individual didn’t change for the better, there were real risks of starvation or total rejection.

Nowadays, many people escape detection and if they are detected, they just move on to the next unsuspecting (and welcoming) group.

With the rise of rapid transportation, which I mark as starting with trains and people moving to cities, which began happening en masse as the Industrial Revolution took hold, we began encountering people from different cultures. They looked and acted different from us.

We lost our control over what was “normal.” We had no tools or knowledge to discern if what we saw was normal or not, and besides, who was in charge to say who was right? Social norms are hard to enforce with large clusters of people and could not keep people’s behavior in check.

We began relying more on the police and courts. The fields of medicine expanded and mental health became a recognized field of expertise, but even these lacked any guidelines as to what degree they were on the right track. All of these entities gave us a false sense of security that somebody could identify what was going on and would taking care of things for us.

Accepting that there are people who are born evil means our world is not safe nor is it predictable. How can one control what is not predictable?

Is our world entirely unpredictable?

Envision a world where believing that some people are born evil is commonplace.

We wouldn’t rush to have our children make up with the others when schoolyard disputes arise. We would be teaching them to be wiser with their playmate selections and to avoid those who deliberately hurt others.

We wouldn’t split hairs over bullying. It would be unacceptable not just with children bullying children, but with teachers and parents who bully children or judges who feel public humiliation done by these adults is acceptable.

We wouldn’t be accepting that parents have the right to discipline their children however they wish. (I just flashed on the image of that Texas judge whipping his daughter that was in the news last year.)

The courts wouldn’t force children to be repeatedly returned to abusive parents because the parents’ rights to their children override the children’s safety. The courts and others in power wouldn’t turn a blind eye on those suspected of sexual abuse.

Therapists would not press families to reconcile with known abusers. Individuals would not be re-victimized by well-meaning mental health workers pushing for an often unachievable state of everybody getting along. We would know that therapy does not work for everyone and in the case of psychopaths is actually counter-productive.

We wouldn’t open our doors to just anyone or immediately embrace the newcomer as one of us. We would know how to recognize real love and not fall for a con. We would know better to think twice before handing over our money or other valuables to smooth talkers and nice guys.

The burden of protecting ourselves wouldn’t fall to the police or courts. We wouldn’t be turning to “the experts” all the time because with enough education and awareness, we will achieve that expertise and be able to handle these things on our own as they happen.

We wouldn’t be abdicating our safety to overwhelmed systems that cannot address all the problems that arise.

We would know better and be less accepting and tolerant of unacceptable behavior. We would be cautious, but not paranoid. We would be wise and prudent, not naive and foolhardy.

We wouldn’t be expecting politicians to straighten out the economy and we wouldn’t tolerate laws or politicians that permit a select few to exploit the masses.

There would be more education of what we will accept and what it will not. We will empower ourselves and finally dissolve the last of the serf/overlord mentalities.

We can control our world to a large extent and make it safer. We cannot make it perfect, but we certainly can improve on the status quo.

I think we’ve been on a learning curve. In terms of the years of human existence, the steam locative and mass production happened a short blip ago. We had nothing to address the new society that evolved and why wouldn’t we have referred to what we knew was tried and true?

We have a new world developing at our feet and that is the world of information exchanged via the Internet. Lovefraud is part of the new world. Think of all the information and education that we are providing, not just via articles, but by sharing our personal experiences.

The glib lawyers and judges have had their day. People know better now and cannot be bamboozled by somebody talking over their heads. It’s far too easy to vet statements and information.

We took our best shot and hoped for the best. Who could have predicted what we would find when we exchanged our agrarian society for urban centers? We gave everyone the benefit of the doubt and we have learned the hard way that isn’t always appropriate.

Articles such as this one get the word out and our responses support it.

Thank you, Mary Ann. It was a wonderful piece. Please keep writing.


One of the factors that is in play is “Tolerance.”

The Intolerance of Tolerance by D.A. Carson

According to Carson, the old meaning of tolerance presupposed disagreement. One person expresses a belief and another disagrees with him while still holding fast to his own. In other words, he accepts that other beliefs exist outside of his own.

Contrary to the old tolerance, today’s version of tolerance actually accepts all differing views. That is to say, we have gone from accepting the existence of other views to believing that we need to accept all differing views. And if you think about it, there is no way that we can do this without rejecting the notion of absolute truth!

The second one is what society is teaching these days. That being “tolerant” is revered that we need/must accept all differing views. And this leads to no truths and ill defined personal boundaries.

Added: It also has a built in guilt trip and shame trip.

My 2 Cents


Ox Drover

We are now taught it seems that “tolerance” of “alternative life styles” and “different cultures” and to have OPEN MINDS until our brains fall out of our heads.

It is NOT an ACCEPTABLE “alternate life style” to have sex with children in MHO.

It is NOT an ACCEPTABLE “religious culture” that shoots 14 year old girls in the head for wanting girls to be educated IMHO.

It is a MYTH that there are “two (valid) sides to every story.

It is a LIE that “there is good in everyone”

It is NOT TRUE that “it takes two to fight”

We are taught that we must be supportive of whatever someone else believes even if what they believe is counter to our own culture.

A survey in the UK recently of Pakistani men BORN in the UK of immigrant parents that 20% of them believed that “honor killing” was a good thing if some woman in the family dishonored the family. 20% of men who were raised in the UK, not in Pakistan, but the culture of “honor killing” continues.

For parents, teachers and therapists to teach that “there is good in everyone, and everyone deserves a second chance, etc” is counter productive to reality in my opinion.

Sorry for the rant! Just MHO.





I recently started a new job and I have met alot of really nice people. But I can see the spath’s and narc’s, they are everywhere.. nobody has messed with me, it must be the invisible tattoo on my forehead that only spaths, narc’s and vampires can say’S..DONT EVEN THINK YOU CAN FUCK WITH ME..


Oh my!

kim frederick

OMG. I am in the middle of the movie, “Bram Stoker’s, Dracula. We all know that the disordered suck…and blood is a metaphore for emotional energy…and we were supply….OMG, you all need to see this movie with new eyes. It is all about trauma bonding, gas-lighting oxytocin and erotica, it is all about the internalizing ogf guilt and shame, it is all about being, “chosen/targeted” it is an incredable testiment to being trauma bonded, how it happened, and what it feels like. Of, course, it’s all symbolic, but, being a Lit major, I really like that stuff. Gotta go, the movie’s back on….what is really telling, it’s sexy stuff.

Hi Kim,
yeah, there’s no doubt that dracula is about spaths.
After I left him, the exspath said to me, “do you think I’m a vampire?”

[email protected] yes!

Well, I can’t remember how I replied but I hope that my response was,
“No MOFO, you’re a [email protected] infant!”

kim frederick

Complete with the initial boundry invasion…intentional, running into her,,,, that instilled fear, or perhaps, resistance, then the very sincere aplology, and the trust me, after. She was strong and assert5ive, then doubted herself, and apologized. Watch the movie.


I feel like Star Trek’s Prime Directive (don’t mess the culture; let the culture do as it’s always done) has factored in here somehow…

kim frederick

I’ve seen this movie before. But, I am seeing it for the first time….in one of the earlier scenes, dracula is crawling on all fours….creepy….and, yes, it’s like an infant…..or an animal… the movie.

kim frederick

“Your salvation is his destruction” a line from the Dr, trying to break Mina’s addiction…….

kim frederick

Why do you suppose Count Dracula must carry coffins filled with the soil of his home-land? I think I know. This is where he sleeps and stays away from the light of day. Why can’t he ever see himself in a mirror? That’s why he has me. I am valuable only as long as I am a mirror…..but he hates that he needs a mirror and always breaks me. Always. But, then, I am easily breakable. And when, I am in a thousand peices, he leaves…he always leaves. I was never very good at being anything for him other than an adoring fan. But, even I have my limits. Even I want to evolve….even I sense there is somthing missing, something wrong, and I turn away from the one who has turned away from me….I go, in search of myself,,,,and he leaves me. Time and time again, he leaves me.

Okay. I’m triggered, and I am in a creative space, and an inner child moment…..

Distressed Grandmother

You are right Oxy! Unfortunately I was raised with these cliches and have a hard time kicking them. One really believes in these cliches until you deal with a s path. I now realize that they are very wrong.
sorry have not been able to talk for a while as things just keep getting worse. You are right there too! No contact is the only answer
but living in the same small town it is impossible. I put my life in Gods hands because I could not live with the Loss hurt and pain and mind games. They accuse me of everything they do. I will never understand a S Path and how they thrive on other peoples pain. They are sick people.

kim, wait, don’t leave without telling me why he has to carry the soil.

I do understand that he can’t see himself in a mirror because there is nothing really there. He only exists when he has a human to mirror.

*sigh* I know that most spaths leave us before we can leave them. That’s borderline PD mostly. But my spath NEVER left me. I left him several times. And he worked the angles so that I could never leave him at the end. But he decided to kill me so I did leave him anyway.

After I left him he said, “I would NEVER have left you.” That was true. I know it. He was like Jeffrey Dahmer, he’d rather kill me and eat me than let me leave.

kim frederick

Even, now, I am giving too much of myself away.

Ox Drover

Kim, Literature tells us a great deal about ourselves…that is why great writers are able to see into what makes people tic AND express it.

I don’t know if you have read any of Jonathan Kellerman’s mystery books, but he is a psych doc who hhas written about kids who are ACTUALLY “Psychopaths” and he UNDERSTANDS Ps. His novels are great because he incorporates into them about psychopathy, but the bad guy is not always a serial killer type but masks well.

Good read. I’ve about finished all his books. His wife Faye writes too and I like her novels. Their son has started writing, but his books suck.

My favorite books that will make you snort coffee through your nose and also make you cry are written by a little known writer, a doctor from Georgia named Ferrol Sams. His first 3 books are about a young boy growing up on his daddy’s plantation in GA in the 1930s,, working in the fields with his daddy’s hired hands and his best friend is a black kid named Buddy. His daddy is a typicall “good old boy” drinnks and womanizes, and mom is a Southern Baptist…kids grows up, goes to college, then medical school, drops out and goes to WWII then comes home and finishes medical college. First book is “Run with the Horsemen” it is a MUST READ, I think he is on the level with Hemingway.

Must be somewhat autobiographical too is my guess because he knows te people. KNOWS the good ones and the bad ones.

I’ve just finished a couple of “self help” rah-rah you can do anything you set your mind to books that I will write articles about. One guy is very very narcissistic…though he has survived horrible things in his life, he’s also had 3 wives and several common law relationships but has become a “well known” and “successful” (read: made a lot of money) out of being a Tony Robbins disciple. I agree with some of what he “preaches” but the narcissism and the “glossing over” of his own bad behavior sort of SCREAM N/P at me.

In spite of that, I did get some good points from it.

Another one I just sent Donna the article about it and I won’t go into any more detail about it here.

I think by reading other people’s struggles we can gain some insight into our own. LF is a perfect example of that. So is some fiction.

kim frederick

Well, I think they carry the dirt of the homeland that spawned them. In every way. It both protects them from the light of day, (the pity ploy) but, also, allows them to play victim, carry baggage, but, then again they do carry baggage from their child-hood….it’s where they sleep…it’s where they tell themselves it’s not their fault and, sometimes, it isn’t. They are creatures who had their souls sucked out, at a young age and were infected…..just holding with the Vampire myth. here.


Hens, CONGRATULATIONS on your new job, and aren’t “they” just out there, everywhere? LMAO!!! It’s almost like an epidemic, right?

As a complete aside but, possibly relating to the article topic, I learned some really disturbing things last night while I was talking to a friend who has been thoroughly supportive of me for as long as I’ve known her.

I learned that the person that I used to work for has engaged in a series of deliberate misdeeds that included hiring me and relieving me of my job because I didn’t have the required credentials. She had done this, previously, and hired someone who wasn’t even trained, and had to fire her. SO, she hired me knowing – knowing, in advance of hiring me – that she wasn’t permitted to do so. Then, after she “fired” me from my position – it was all very sad and she cried in her office over her “mistake” – she kept me on as an instructor.

Then, there’s her coverup of a recent act of violence that happened outside of the facility. Students are talking about this, but not one staff or faculty member has mentioned this incident. According to the students, this director actually made some comment to the police that there was no need to report this to the college because it hadn’t happened inside of her facility. WTF?! This facility is located in the center of Gangland – in between 2 territories that are always fighting between themselves. Vagrants wander up and down the downtown sidewalks at all hours, and it’s a very dangerous environment, even on a good day!

There are also many, many other things that she’s done that are thoroughly questionable. Like my working my former colleagues hours in exchange for a reduced rent – the director knew about this, and she allowed it. I later found out that this was illegal, and I didn’t know it.

This director is the same person that sent me that check that I felt uncomfortable in accepting and immediately sent back.

WTF?!?! Oy…..

HENS……..They ARE everywhere, and they are in every walk of life, every profession, and every social/cultural group.

Dupey, no wonder you wanted to isolate yourself. I’m feeling like I just want to find a nice, dry cave and become a farking survivalist. No money, no job. Just hunting and gathering.

Brightest blessings


Regarding vampires and our perception of “evil.” The series “Twilight” has spawned a whole new acceptance of sociopathy, don’t you think? I mean, think about it: the vampires SPARKLE when they’re struck by sunlight. This must mean that they have an “inner light” of “good,” right?

Blah, blah, blah….HAPPY FRIDAY!!! 😀

ah yes! I see. vampirism/spathy is baggage from the past. so true. it’s passed down through generational violence and genetics.

I’m sorry you are feeling that way. But I do understand, they ARE everywhere! It’s hard to come to terms with that. All we can do is become so adept at recognizing it, that we can sidestep their slime at a moment’s notice.

And there is a gift there too. I NEVER APPRECIATED GOOD PEOPLE BEFORE AS MUCH AS I DO NOW. Never take them for granted. Now, when I see a person who is compassionate and empathetic, it’s like finding a diamond. I just say, “wow, check it out! a real human being. NICE!” Really, there are lots of those too, they just don’t stick out as much.

When I was in the cafe with the kitten killer, I also noticed that the others were feeling his shame. These were “normals” and there were more of them. It’s bizarre to be able to see people’s characters in a way that I never could before. It’s like having x-ray vision.

Recently I was talking with an 80 year old woman about my ex-spath. She was one of the neighbors he terrorized because he could not turn her and her husband against me.

They were so afraid of him they put up a fence between our properties. We never spoke to each other until after spath left.

Our conversation went along the usual lines when I tell people about spaths. Whether I’m talking to a normal or a pathological, it always draws a series of “AHA!” moments from them. The conversation always ends up with them telling me about their uncle joe or aunt millie who drove the family crazy. Or about the sister sue who stole their inheritance even after everyone helped her with her divorce. Or cousin eddie who lives in the basement or whatever. I can see it in their faces when I start explaining shame and envy, they finally understand why their dad dominated their mom and why mom had to be so sneaky to survive. EVERYONE has this crap in their family tree. Some worse than others.

What I told my neighbor is that the spath does serve some purpose: when he enters our garden, all the fence sitters start to show their true colors. Suddenly the evil ones throw down their masks. He is really good at revealing people’s characters. As it turned out, I had only 2 good neighbors and 5 spaths. But that doesn’t really mean anything as far as percentages go. I know he got rid of some of the neighbors so that he could move his minions in. Where there is a will, there is a way. And spaths are nothing if not strong willed.


Skylar, I really appreciate what you’re conveying, here. It’s the ability to recognize truths that has been a “gift” from the spaths, I think. And, that “gift” is hard-won, and a bitter present, to be sure, but that’s the only way that I learn. I don’t learn without experience. Unless I experience it, whatever the subject matter is applies to others, or (worst case scenario) isn’t factual.

I’m watching people far more closely, now. I’m keeping my core self TO myself, now. Finally, I’m realizing and accepting that it’s not a sin or a crime to refuse to tolerate “bad behaviors.” I’m realizing that making decisions and choices that are based upon fear only end up harming me, personally.

Thanks so much for the insight, Skylar. The more that I read and indentify with, the stronger and wiser I’m becoming.

Brightest blessings to you


Truthy, yes, but I dont think everyone is evil, there are nice people everywhere also. I have pretty much been a hunter and gatherer ,survivalist most of my life. I like isolating myself from the so called mainstream corporate world with all their regulations and bullshit. I prefer being self employed as apposed to working for the machine.. Tardy three times and your fired, who needs that stress?
Thanks for the congrats on my new job, but I hate it.. I am not real happy about anything right now. Where is my team? where is my partner to help make it through another day? I have always done it alone.. I dont even have time for my weiners anymore, they are depressed also…
Dont ever give your life over to someone else, when they dont need you anymore your just an empty wal mart sack blowing down a dirty road…



Yeah, or you are discarded like a used tissue. That’s what I told my spath…boy, did that get a reaction from him. He had ignored me for months and when I texted that to him, he replied within two hours and said he wanted to meet me! But it never culminated. Once again, he was only toying with me. But there was something about me telling him that he had discarded me like a used tissue that got to him big time.

Hens…I am so sorry you are feeling down right now. I get it. I feel down a lot. It’s like a roller coaster ride sometimes and I just want to jump off. It will get better, Hens…it always does. Even if it does get bad again, it does get better. HUGS.



Yes that is some of them but it goes deeper. Tolerance i. e. the new Tolerance also shows up in group dynamics; the illusion that everybody else is responsible for how I feel. Say the wrong thing and the entitlement of offended throws a fit.

The problem is this way of thinking is in us. We do it without thinking.

Sadly there is a big push to normalize pedophiles. Sick.

As this pertains to the “it” is that we are not connecting behavior with the words and what we want. [keeping things in context] This new Tolerance has helped to disconnect this. We tend to not see our behavior as a factor in what is happening. I feel therefore I am justified in whatever I do. I love the “it” so whatever I do to hold on to the “it” is OK. And the “its” evilness is overlooked to satisfy our feeling. Why? I feel therefore it is true. And we are discounted with the context of what is happening.

On the blog many have come to see that feelings are not facts. Which is a good thing.

Behavior is the only benchmark we have. Does the persons actions backup what they are saying? This is how we determine “trust.” If it does and we see many examples of this. Then we can say that we can trust that this person will keep his word. If not then we can trust that the person will not keep his words. And time to move on.

Love is action. So the behavior must show this for the Love to be true.

We need to apply this to everyone and to ourselves. Is our behavior backing up what we say and what we want? Is their behavior backing up what they say? Is their behavior congruent to what we want?

My 2 Cents


kim frederick

Truthy, with all due respect, I wasn’t talking about Twilight…although you have a point, it does romantisize narcississm….I was talking about Bram Stoker’s Dracula…it is chaulk full of symbolism, and I was sharing an ahh-hahh moment I thought may have been of value to someone. I was amazed at the insight.
You seem to have hi-jacked my point and effectively de-railed it, in one fell swoop.
Blah, blah, blah. Pretty condescending. Sorry. Just how I feel.
Is that what you meant to do?

kim frederick

Hen’s, I used to feel like a dingy dish-rag….but, it’s all the same feeling, we gave it our all, were used up, and were disgarded.
I am not a dingy dish-rag, Loise is not a used tissue, and you, Hens are not an empty Walmart bag…..that is only their slime being projected onto us…it’s opposites day….that is what they feel about themselves, because they have no real identity…they are empty, devoid of value, so that is how they treat others…us, but we do have value, integrety, and souls…we have a pearl inside the empty bag, and it is a beautiful gem, that started out being nothing but a tiny grain of sand that rubbed us raw. By our very nature, we had the resources inside us, to protect ourselves against this irritant….we secreted the balm that beautified the offender….that tiny grain of sand……..

kim frederick

Pearls of wisdom……

kim frederick

Yes, Ox. I have learned so much about human nature, and the human condition from the study of Literature.
Your “Horseman” book sounds like a lot of fun. I will look into it.
Oxy, I just want to say thank-you for always being here, ready to respond and freely giving of yourself. You’ve been there for me so many times when I was befuddled, or triggered, or, just feeling blue. Thanks, Ox. You are a treasure.


Hello all: It’s Lillian here. Too funny. I have read everything Jonathan Kellerman’s written. He’s excellent. They attempted to do a couple of his books in TV movies several years back but they failed. It’ too complex for movie of the week unfortunately. I had to quit reading them when I had kids, maybe I should have kept up with them. Also, Hen having the tattoo on your forehead that tells them all to not fuck with you is much better than the one I think I have that says “Spaths & Narcs Magnet” Once you recognize the behaviors you do tend to notice them. I attract them like a magnet. I’m working on turning myself into a Spath Zapper like one of those bug zapper things. Just saying Hi. It’s birthday season & I’ll post a taking stock message soon. love Lillian

Ox Drover

Kimmie, sweetie, thank you, and you have always been there for me too…thank you! That’s what LF is all about and that is like two one-legged men, by holding on to each other WE CAN STAND UPRIGHT!

I have enjoyed very much seeing the growth in you, and I am so PROUD OF AND PROUD FOR you for the things you have accomplished, for you finally getting your INDEPENDENCE from others, so that now you don’t have to eat anyone’s shiat any more and you can tell your SIL psychopath to go to h-e-double L!

You have grown a back bone and I am so glad for you! I’m still working on mine but it is getting there too.




I have rented and watched a looooong list of movies with spaths in them,on purpose, to understand them better. It was hugely eye opening.
Particularly the movir “Talented Mr. Ripley.” I learned a ton,

I am going to rent the Dracula movie you mentioned and I will give you my thoughts,



kim frederick

Thanks, Athena. I also read, “The Talented Mr. Ripley”. A really good read.
I just saw a lot of erotic trauma bonding stuff in the movie I was watching last night, and thought I’d share it. Thought maybe someone else might be able to identify.


I wasnt talkin about the Xbf making me feel like a empty wal- mart bag. Sometime’s it’s just life in general, or good people that dont understand. I have developed a backbone, but sometimes it get’s tired. I am not one of those people that’s alway’s happy, it’s a struggle for me sometime’s. I am in a slump and yes it will pass, it always does. Thanks for your pearls of wisdom.


Empty Wal-mart sack? Oh My! Hens, I hope the slump passes quickly like a bad case of gas. You are the best. Shalom


Shalomy ~! I know it will pass, cause you just made me smile.





Doesn’t an empty walmart bag have a smiley face on it?
On a serious note: maybe you were unknowingly slimed.

There are some spathy people who can slime you covertly and you never even know it happened. Then you just end up feeling bad all day and have no idea why. My exspath was an expert at that. I felt bad for years and couldn’t figure out why. He could slime me and I thought he was the nicest person anyway.

They do this by making you feel unimportant, I think. They add a little whipsaw (hot/cold) action and finish it off by ignoring you completely.



I was ignored all the time. Blatantly ignored. Stonewalled. Silent treatment. It was dreadful. But it’s over now because I stopped allowing it. Yay for me. I still hurt though. I don’t think I will ever be the same, but I feel like a broken record…I’ve said that over and over again.


Louise< Your not a broken record darlin, you just have a scratch, so bump it and keep singin…

Louise, you won’t be the same, true. Once you heal, you’ll be better than ever!

People have commented on that about me. The neighbor lady said that I looked much better and happier than I used to.

The dude who stepped too close, said I had an amazing presence.

I never thought of myself as being someone who was beaten down, but I guess I was. Back then, some people said I seemed submissive. lol. I never have thought of myself that way, but I will admit that around my spath, I just tried to keep him from freaking out.

So anyway, I think you will get better, and you will have an amazing presence. you’ll see.

Hens, did you see my post about my garbage disposal? I wasn’t joking. I really can’t remove the old badger 5. Everything is disconnected but I can’t twist the dang thing off. any tips?


Call a hot plumber.


I get what your saying about never being the same again. And like I said, I am trying to make that a good thing, but something is just different, not good, not bad, just different and it always will be. It’s kinda like a break down or break through, and there is so much to process, so much of our live’s lived not knowing the truth. We just cant jump up and feel happy about seeing the truth when so much crap is behind that..ya know what I mean? So, make the most of it, live the best life we can, thats what we got a do..

I’m tired of trauma bonding to my hired help!

It’s like a disability with me. I should apply for social services. I can’t function in a society filled with spaths because I trauma bond immediately.



Thanks, I agree. I know I am forever changed and it’s not necessarily a bad thing. I know so much more than I did before and that’s always an asset. I just know I will never let it happen again. So I may be wounded, but wounded for the good 🙂

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