By | October 23, 2010 142 Comments

Moving on with life

This week the Connecticut Medical Examining Board restored me to the full practice of medicine. Due to the fact that my ex-husband Barry Lichtenthal impersonated a physician and examined female patients in a clinic that I directed, my license was restricted. I am not going to retell the full story today but I am going to comment on some things I have kept silent about. For more details of the story you can read Barry Lichtenthal: Sexual predator ruins the career of Dr. Liane Leedom. Donna Andersen is an excellent journalist and did her own investigation in order to report the story. She uncovered details even I was unaware of.

I want to address the question of whether or not I was Barry’s “accomplice” and the question of what I was aware of in terms of the goings on. The precise answer to the question is that I was an unwitting accomplice. I knew that he told people he was a retired doctor and that he called himself “Dr. Taylor.”

This behavior on his part began shortly after the clinic opened. The first I was aware of it was when I was negotiating a contract with an insurance company. He got on the other line and started schmoozing with the executive. I do not remember exactly what he said but he told the man he was a retired doctor and proceeded to tell funny and entertaining stories. Although I laughed, I was disgusted at this because it seemed infantile on his part and a waste of time. I did not understand this was his “foot in the door” with me and these stories.

I correctly recognized these stories as being pathological lies (pseudologica fantastica). However, I did not understand that all people who are pathological liars are predators. I am now sure that this is the case, though if you read the Mask of Sanity by Dr. Hervey Cleckley, he says that not all pathological liars are psychopaths.

I thought Barry told these stories because he has an ego problem and was threatened by his wife’s status. Again that interpretation was correct, but again I missed the significance of it. I let it go because I thought his pathological lies were harmless entertaining stories that no one really believed any way. Several patients indicated to me they were aware that the stories were entertaining fabrications.

I never told anyone Barry was a doctor. In fact I told every patient I was the only physician at the practice. I realize now this must have been very upsetting and confusing for some people who were being told one thing by me and another thing by Barry. Since he is a professional con artist who do you think was believed?

Because of this terrible judgment on my part, I deserved all the punishment that I received. Since I was part of other people’s victimization, I sought to do everything I could to make amends. The victims were compensated by my malpractice insurance carrier after I provided hours of truthful testimony regarding what happened. The officials of the insurance company believed my explanation that I never intended any fraudulent or criminal activity. I made the wrong decision regarding coping with my husband’s story telling.

Shortly after Barry’s arrest, I had the good fortune to speak with Annie Mcguire from It was she who made me aware of Donna Andersen. She and I also had a discussion of the unwitting accomplices of psychopaths. She said this is very common and pointed out that psychopaths could not do what they do without witting and unwitting accomplices. She has written step by step instructions for what to do if you are the unwitting accomplice to financial fraud.

I am speaking out about the fact that I was an unwitting accomplice to fraud to help to bring attention to this phenomenon. Psychopaths con and manipulate people into helping them do their dirty work and sometimes also into doing their dirty work for them. If we can raise public awareness of psychopathy and stop non-psychopaths from helping psychopaths we will be able to do a great deal of prevention. Do not ever help a psychopath in any way or you will be tricked into becoming an accomplice.

Now that gets me to telling the rest of the story. You might be wondering, “What ever happened to Barry Lichtenthal?” It is no surprise that he went to Connecticut State prison where he continued to tell his pathological lies. Prison staff members became his unwitting accomplices when they too did not prevent him from calling himself “doctor” or “doc.”

A law enforcement official told me that it was not illegal for Barry to call himself “doctor” in prison. He said this after I verbally reprimanded him for allowing this to go on. I told him I believe prisoners like Barry need to have a special designation “psychologically dangerous” so that prison staff will not be psychologically harmed by them. It seems odd that if a prisoner is more physically dangerous than average, staff members are warned, but there is no appreciation of the concept of psychological dangerousness.

Now enter another set of accomplices, family members. Even after they knew that Barry is what he is because I told them while also fully explaining the concept of psychopathy; and even after they witnessed his destruction of my life, members of his family participated in his seduction of his next woman. They sent her flowers on his behalf while he was incarcerated. They also did nothing to warn her even though I begged them to.

I was told by inside sources that the prison nurse who married Barry at one point believed he was a doctor. But I have not spoken with her myself to verify this. Donna and I have known about Barry’s new relationship because we both received letters from him while he was incarcerated, and the letters were not all stamped with the prison stamp. I received several letters addressed in a woman’s handwriting and postmarked “Hartford, CT.” Upon seeing the letters I knew that he had yet another person manipulated. I did my own investigation and found out he married a nurse who worked in the prison.

Donna and I did not write about our investigation of Barry and his marriage to the prison nurse because although I have all the documentation of the events that went on in the prison, we have no proof Barry and the nurse were actually married. Donna is a very good journalist and you can trust that she will not tell a story without possessing proof. For more information regarding Barry’s recent activities see Probation department wants access to sex offender’s computer

I pray every day that Barry, now in his 60s has mellowed and become less predatory. I believe that the best person to deal with him is an experienced prison nurse so I hope that situation is going well. I also pray there will be no more victims and no more accomplices.

Liane Leedom, M.D.

Liane Leedom, M.D. outside the Connecticut State Department of Health

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Congratulations on your reinstatement to the good graces of the Connecticut Medical Examining Board, Dr. Leedom.

At least one more thing that was wrong, made right.

And much appreciation for all you do in your pursuit to help raise public awareness, my personal crusade, as well.

Ox Drover

Dear Liane,

First off, congratulations on finally getting the lisense issue completely cleared up.

Secondly, congratulations on moving on with your life, and for reaching out to help others move on with theirs.

I disagree with you in one instance, I don’t think that “experienced prison nurse” is in any better or even as good a shape to deal with Barry than any one else, possibly worse. If she was “running on all cylinders” or with a “complete knowledge” of what she is dealing with (even though she may know some FACTS she couldn’t know the REAL story and still have married him) Unfortunately, I think BECAUSE she is a prison nurse (or was) she THINKS she knows more than she actually does, and that makes her even much more vulnerable to Barry’s lies and manipulation.

It doesn’t surprise me though that he did cozy up to her while he was in prison and marry her—I can almost see my own son doing the same thing. I know my P son had an affair with a female Major on one of his units once, and she was quite attractive and bright. I even saw them in the visiting room together once when I visited, and you could feel the sexual tension between them as they looked at each other. I am actually surprised that they didn’t get caught. She was risking a felony charge as well as losing her career for the affair since he was a prisoner and “under her control”–why for goodness sakes would an intelligent and attractive young woman with a husband and family RISK IT ALL for sex with a convict? My P-son isn’t even that good looking any more, but I know he can be CHARMING. I just don’t understand it unless it is the HIGH FROM THE RISK TAKING!

No, Liane, I think that nurse has got to be either a very naive woman victim, or she’s not much better than he is. As you have said and I believe well know, many times they will “hook up” with people almost as bad as they are and then you get a real explosive human BOMB! Gasoline and Fire! I don’t think Barry has any more chance of staying out of trouble after his release than my P son would. A few months at most before he goes back to prison for another crime!

If nothing else, though, Liane, you’ve paid your “tuition” to the University of Hard Knocks, and the lessons you have learned, combined with your medical credentials and license will give you a “bully pulpit” on which to stand and to be HEARD and RECOGNIZED as the expert that you are in this field, both professionally and personally. You understand the view of a psychopath from BOTH SIDES now. For my “money” that makes you TOP OF THE LINE to teach about, to spread the word about, and to be a credible witness against their EVIL!

TOWANDA for you, Liane! And, I want to say a personal thank you for your articles and support here at Love Fraud. God bless you and spread your message of THERE IS HOPE AFTER A PSYCHOPATH.


Dear Liane,

I have read many of your entries here on L.F. and they have given me great strength and insight. I too have suffered from having a “legal” issue because of my ex. I know ONE day it will be over, but in the meantime I’m still struggling to rectify it.

I am happy for you that you have been reinstated.

We all need to remember, “And this too, shall pass”.

Peace Sisters.


Dear Dr. Leedom,

Your news is good – yeh! You have been down a LONG ROAD, one that you didn’t deserve to be on. I am happy for you, being “restored to the full practice of medicine” by the state of Connecticut. I won’t say anything about your ex-husband because my comments would not be nice, ladylike. May you just move forward, receiving many blessings from above.


I know what a long, hard road it’s been for you to be restored to the practice of medicine. You have reached a milestone, and you are to be acknowledged and congratulated for it.

In my view, not one “expert” in psychopathy knows more than you. All those academics sit cozily in their ivory towers, evaluating psychopaths based on written reports, or sitting in a prison interview room, with the big red panic button nearby, just in case things get a little tense.

You have been directly subjected to a psychopath’s manipulation. You have suffered greatly due to his predatory deception. You know what it’s really like to tangle with these creatures.

Now, based upon your experience and you academic study, you are in a position to really inform the world about the true nature of the disorder. I am sure you will take your place among the great educators of the mental health field.



I asked this on another thread, but wanted to get your thoughts on this. Donna is right about the fact that your “perspective” is UNIQUE and offers GREAT value here.

So this is what I wrote.

Is anyone else like me and KNOWS all we have learned here on LF”UNDERSTANDS how these snakes work and YET something inside us thinks that maybe, just maybe something will change and that our ex is just a borderline case and he’ll be able to work on fixing his issues”..I have one who talks about being aware of his “problem—”goes to counseling ”.YES I KNOW—What I’m saying is that DESPITE what I know and I could talk about endlessly and DESPITE what I would “advise” anyone else with my situation, I have a tough time accepting that he is a hopeless case. That he TRULY can’t love. That he truly has NO remorse, blah, blah

Anyone else like me?


Dear Dr. Leedom, thanks for sharing your victory! A great moment in life getting back what never should have been taken away from you! Your first hand experience, vey dearly payed for gives you the power of teaching this so neglected field of psychiatry.

I have been to an exhibition about Picasso, a classic Psychopath (in my opinion), as he was expoiting all his women and moving effortlessly to the next, creating a new style with evrey “new love”. (his famous quote is: “Women are either goddesses or doormats”). He was also famous for his stare and charms.

C.G. Jung did an analysis by “reading” his paintings as psychiatrist. He did draw the right conclusion, that Picasso was choosing the dark side of his soul and chose evil and went to the “dark side of life” to show it, but then he diagnosed him as having “Schizophrenia” what is not true of course. Picasso heard no voices, had no inner world hermetically closed he lived in, and he was perfectly integrated in “our” world and a famous artist even at that time. C.G. Jung got very harsh critics for his “diagnosis”. I read numerous articles about that topic, but no author connected the dots. They all mocked C.G. Jung for his dislike of the new art, talking the language of the “old establishment”.

Your work of education is of most importance! Congratulations.

super chic

Dr. Leedom, congratulations!!! This is really great news!
Thank you for being here to help us with your wonderful articles.


Dr. Leedom,
What strikes me most about your story is your willingness to take responsibility for your own part, even though you were very clearly conned. I admire this very much. I feel that it is not until we take personal responsibility for our own actions that we can move on from feeling victimized, no matter how egregious the crime. Even if we are not responsible for what another person does, we are responsible for how we respond and how we recover. I really admire your strength after everything you have been through, and I’m glad you got your license back!

As for the conman pretending he’s a doctor in prison….well, I’m sure there are a lot of inmates there who would love to play doctor with him. *evil laugh*


Thank you Liane for sharing the story, it’s amazing. That is 1 of the most frustrating things to see People continuing to assist the psychopath in his cons. Perhaps this is where we should focus our area of study. If we can figure out how to cut off the psychopath supplies, We will achieve more progress than if we try to stop it psychopath individually. This method applies the model we use in medicine when trying to the eradicate a virus or parasite. Rather than try to cure each individual infection we use of vaccine or profilactic to prevent infection.


Dr. Leedom;


Your post is strong and clear; the character that shines through is truly strong and wise. Respect.

Ox Drover

Dear Liane,

I can’t even begin to imagine the relief, joy, and even anxiety, you must have felt (be feeling?) about the changes this long awaited and anticipated event has made and will continue to make in your life.

Re: your above comments to SHMS and your cautioning her about the “there is good in everyone” line of thinking, I totally agree with you that we should be careful with that.

I can’t remember who said it here or where the original quote came from but it was “Yea, he’s a really great guy when he isn’t robbing banks.” I think this quote is really quite profound if we stop and think about it. Even Ted Bundy was apparently a very “nicely behaving” person and appeared to have good manners, when he “wasn’t raping and killing women.”

While we all know that not all psychopaths rob banks or rape and kill, do the calm times between the incidents of “bad behavior” and “abuse” that they do exhibit cancel out the chaos and the constant need for vigilance on our parts? In other words, is it (the relationship) worth it over all?

My experience with captive wild animals, especially large cats, makes me wonder if a relationship with even a low level psychopath isn’t sort of like keeping a pet tiger? Most of the time it may be quite calm and apparently loving, but you just never know when it might “go off” and if and when it does go off, the damage can be severe, even life threatening. For me, living with that kind of vigilance and risk is not worth it, for the pleasure of keeping even such a marvelous animal as a “pet.”

Just as most species of wild animals (especially predators) are never truly safe to be around, even if raised from birth by humans, I’m not sure that psychopaths, on even the low end of the scale, are ever truly safe to keep around in an intimate personal relationship. Even animals that have been long domesticated, cats, dogs, horses, and cattle for example, can still “revert” from time to time to their wild instincts.

Again, congratulations on you license restoration, I know it has been a long hard uphill battle for you, and you must feel a tremendous sense of relief that this part of the battle is over. God bless.

Ox Drover, I absolutely agree that any relationship with a psychopath/sociopath is unsafe, no matter her/his degree of affectation.

While many nopaths go through their entire lives not ever having directly caused the death of another human, and I am no professional, with no studies to back my belief, I am firmly convinced by the logic, anecdotal stories, and my own experience that any nopath will kill if it becomes more beneficial to do so than not. Without love, without the ability to emotionally attach or feel any empathy for others, the restraint that keeps the rest of us from ending or injuring lives of others simply does not exist in them.

Furthermore, all nopaths inflict harm on other living, feeling creatures, more harm than good by any measure. And they consistently take far more than they give, draining their targets and all of society.

Ox Drover

Dear Sociosibs,

I think that JUST ABOUT any human can be pushed into a situation where they could/world kill for that matter, but the psychopaths have less inhibition than the rest of the human race about stopping that sort of high level violence. I’m reading an interesting book right now about “The Psychopath, Emotion and the Brain” in which the authors make a distinction between the two basic kinds of violence, the “reactive” violence which is a threat response that we all have. (in three levels) They also say “The crucial aspect of psychopathy is not the display of antisocial behavior. Instead it is the emotional impairment.”

Statistics from one study about criminals released from prison is that within 3 years 25% of non-psychopaths have been re-incarcerated, but 80% of psychopathic individuals have been re-incarcerated. Other studies have found 65% had re-offended, but these higher levels of violent re-offenses are borne out in European as well as American studies.

Instrumental aggression, which is “goal-directed behaviors performed in expectation of receiving the particular desired reward” (i.e. “hunting” behavior say in a cat or willingness to rob or mug someone to get their money, or rape them to get sex etc. in a psychopathic human.)

The authors also make a distinction between Antisocial Personality disorder which is NOT in their minds the same as psychopathy, but instead is just bad behavior that is more of a social nature, but the person has a conscience of sorts, and some ability to love, in their view the ASPD is not devoid of the basic ability to feel empathy or to bond with other humans.

I’m not yet sure if I totally agree with them, but I can see their point. The behavior may be pretty much the same (say robbery or murder) but they are BOTH dangerous, and unlikely to change much if any, but ultimately the psychopath has no chance of change. They also make note that therapy seems to make psychopaths worse while some ASPDs profit somewhat from therapy.

I’m not sure if their construct is correct, but it is another way of looking at things and I am open to learning more, and the authors seem to have a wide range of studies that they have quoted. Psychological studies do not always agree with each other, and there are so many variables that it is difficult to get a direct focus on cause and effect. I think most researchers now are coming to realize though that there are some genetic links and some tendencies for co-morbidity with ADHD, bi-polar and other mental illnesses. Interestingly enough, these guys say that depression is not one of the main co-morbidly-found mental illnesses. Come to think of it, that seems to be true in my experience as well. Even the bi-polar ones I’ve known seemed more manic than depressed.

So many of the behaviors expressed in a manic episode though, such as the grandiosity, etc., tend to be “SOP” for psychopaths as well.

I wish I could be around in 100 years when they have finally figured out how to objectively diagnose and/or treat PPD. Would make the world a better place.



Ox Drover

Dear Onajourney,

I am so sorry that your daughter has been hoodwinked by this evil person, and that you are also suffering as collateral damage. I wish I could tell you “she will wake up some day” but that may or may not happen, but I am glad that if and when that day comes, you will be there for her…you may be the only friends in the world she has left. Psychopaths get their power by dividing families and victims from friends and supporters.

I am pretty sure he lied to your daughter about the ring and why it was not on her finger. God bless.

super chic

onajourney, I am so sorry to read what this man has done to you and your family, sorry that you have not heard from your daughter, I hope somehow she will figure out what he is and get away from him. I wasn’t “aware” at all, I thought that 99.9% of people had some “good” in them, that others were like me… how do we know about N/S/P’s unless someone teaches us? I’m learning about it now, it’s changed who I am.


Amen.He deserves to go down in flames.Unfortunetly I have found out that no matter how much you try to warn the next victim thay only look at you like your the one who is jealous and spiteful.His new wife is going to learn the hard way.Congrats on your reinstatement.


Thank you for your story Dr. Leedom. Sharing your story shows that no matter how smart a person is – a sociopath will wiggle their way into your life. It’s not just the person who may work at a store or school – anywhere – they are prediators. I am very happy your license is restored – you worked hard and long for it. God Bless and your journey will be easier now.


Greetings Neighbors
While I believe this site is invaluable in educating the public at large, I also feel a very important point is being over looked, That being, the number of P we rub shoulders with every day, people that are contributing to society at large, that are living there quietly and minding there own business, I think of them as spider people, and like a spider they find a mate or friend and suck the life out of them and leave them a empty shell of a human, we also need to look at our selves, as to why we as an individual are attracted to such people, and, if that is truly the case how can we trust ourselves to choose a mate. I know many P living very quiet lives and know they would be shocked to think of themselves as P. My first wife was a P. and many of her traits were inherited by my children so for me it’s a thing I live with on a daily bases, some have made good lives for them selves and some I marvel why they have not ended up in jail. Is this a inheritable condition? personally I believe it is. In protecting myself I keep any and all at arms length, while it is true we all are responsible for our own actions, and yes we do have choices, which is something I teach my children. I also taught them “believe nothing you hear and half of what you see”
My advice would be for all of us that are informed about P to look around there community and take note of the P’s and keep your distance, Can they change? no they can’t based on my understanding of the condition. so learn to protect yourselves, because if you don’t you will have two choices, ether allowed ourselves to be a victim, or move of the planet, there is only one of you and these P’s are like the sands of the seas.


Dr. Leedom,

Congratulations for your reinstatement, it has to be a huge weight lifted off you shoulders. I have read some of your postings and you seem to have passed the bitterness stage and are looking at life from an optimistic point of view. To me, this is the most vexing thing to accomplish and the most beautiful thing to accomplish.

I hope that you have many more years of rewarding experiences in your field. Your help and advice have been invaluable to people like me who could never have fathomed that a person so disordered would be a part of their lives.

I just read an essay about lying written by Stephanie Ericksson and in it she talked about a study done when people are lied to by dismisal (i.e.-That never happened, it’s in your imagination) and how damaging it is to their mental health. Children who are lied to in this way have a higher rate of scizophrenia (sp?) as adults. No wonder we feel so horrible after our experience, our reality has been altered.

Having a website such as LoveFraud brings about healing from the crazy making that has invaded our psyche for so many years. Thank you for helping us on our journey to recovery.

Ox Drover

Dear Caprine,

Do you keep goats? Is that why you chose your name?

I agree with you, many psychopaths live (on the surface at least) “quiet” lives without robbing or killing, but just sucking the life out of their family and everyone around them seems to think they are a “nice normal family”—

Yep, there is I think both a genetic and an environmental basis to psychopathy, and research has seemingly borne this out as well. I’m sorry your kids are like their p-egg donor, that’s a shame. I’ve got one full blown criminal P-son and one who isn’t really a psychopath, just an ass, but he has a conscience. Fortunately I have one son (adopted) who is a wonderful young man, so I’m fortunate there.

Many people though live lives of “quiet desperation” because of the psychopaths they are involved with. I’m no longer willing to do that.


Dr. Leedom,
I believe that we all in one way or another are put here to help others, even the (sp’s) have a role to play here. By being there special selves we get lessons in life that we other wise would have not gotten if we were dealing with “normal” thinking and feeling humans. Sometimes it is having to go through things like we are going through or have gone through so that we can help others with our experiences. I’m glad that you are getting your life back and lived to share your experience, strenght and hope with us. This website was a surprize to me (showing up in my e-mails from i don’t know where) but divinely appointed for sure. In response to SHMS, i think periodically that “nobody can really be this horrible, without love at all in their hearts and he would cry and he was so kind to me at times that maybe (just maybe) he is sorry for breaking my jaw, stealing my jewelry, lying to me about everything, etc, etc…then i tell myself to STOP!!!!! even if this is true and he has some remorse chances of him hurting me again are very high so why would i even romance the thought of being with this person again?! I go from anger to emptiness to sadness to being strong to wishing he wasn’t what he IS, blah.. blah. So in answer to your question yes there are people who think like you do, who think there is a chance that MAYBE, JUST MAYBE!!!??? There is some good in there somewhere but then i STOP myself and play the tape all the way through. I can make all the excuses in the world for his behavior but the outcome is still the same. This man has done things to me that i would not do to my worst enemy and all the while professing his love for me. NO he is not a good person. YES, he would do it again if i let him, NO it is not worth having to be hypervigilant and paranoid being with him. So, i’ll say… play the tape all the way to the end. My guy never laid a hand on me until this last time but he almost killed me. It’s that last reconciliation where they become really pissed. For one they have been found out, secondly (YOU) in their eyes have made a fool out of them, If they truly did fall in love with you (I mean they feel that they have ownership of you) they will stop at NOTHING to keep others away from you, and in my case, you actually stood up for yourself and got even with them (legally, financially, or sneekily) by pulling some of there games on them, then you are in true danger because (atleast my sp) would find pleasure in seeing me cry, he would even with a smirk on his face, that i’m sure he didn’t think i noticed, come over and feel my face to see if it was wet. One thing that i have always believed and that is “If you think that person is bad now just wait until you leave them then you will get to see how bad they really are and in my cases it( the abuse) has usually been way worse than it was when i was with them. Just food for thought. Also for Hopeforjoy, i agree with you 100%. WHen a person has been around people who have lied to them telling them that things are white when they are black, good when they are bad, That “that didn’t happen and all of it was in your head”, That you are crazy etc…) especially by people that you are supposed to trust, especially as a kid, then it does dramatically affect someones mental health. Leading to poor choices in partners, etc… Because our internal protection devices like intutition and just knowing what is safe and not safe have been tampered with and it scars our thinking, sometimes for ever. There is good news though and i don’t want to leave on a downer note, once we are informed and we find out why we attract these types of people then we can fix it. To be forwarned is to be forarmed!!!! I’ve written long enough already but there are ways to heal energetically on a soul level. I’ve done some of the work already and obviously i need alot more but it works, really. Light and love to all of you here… Caylin
P.S. Thank you for being here. Support helps a great deal to overcome stuff like this…


Yes I did keep goats since 1941 there a bouts, It tickled me that you recognized the name. I was a breeder of blue ribbon animals.
It’s encouraging for me to realized that yes others are able to see that many folks are not always as they seem, With being a bible reader this bible text keeps popping into my mind “(Jeremiah 51:7) . . .That is why the nations keep acting crazed” {mad or insane}. we do live in a crazy world.

Ox Drover

Dear Caprine,

I’m a farm girl, so caught on to the screen name. Wasn’t sure if you were being a smart alec or if you raised goats so thought I would ask. LOL We had some guy come here a year or two ago with some name (CRS can’t remember what it was now) that had a “double” meaning and he was a trolling psychopath. So I thought “goat?” Huh? Wonder if he raises goats or if he is a “goat” in disguise! LOL

Yea, I started raising dairy goats when my oldest bio son was 6 or 7 cause he was allergic to cow milk and in those days in this part of the country–couldn’t buy goat milk, so had to squeeze teats to get it! I’d never been around goats (family had cattle) and came to love/hate the critters! They are so contrary, but you either love them, hate them or love AND hate them! LOL

Got into raising and training Border Collies through the goats! Gosh with goats you just about HAVE TO HAVE collies, and also guardian dogs, Pyrenees. Lost my last collie this summer and so I’m not going to be doing any more goat/dog demos, and I miss that, but only kept goats now to work the dog with. Am retired mostly.

Had some goats again for a while when son was home for a year after his divorce. Just two does and their kids, took half the milk and let the kids have the other half, so in emergency we could just turn them together if we had to go some where and didn’t have anyone to milk for us. Still swam in milk and they have been gone over a year and I am still thawing and drinking their milk that I froze. At -10 degrees F it keeps pretty well for quite a while. I’m lactose intolerant too but you can buy goat milk in the stores now, but is high as a cat’s back.

Talking about this crazy world, sometimes I get discouraged, like all the stuff this Wikileaks data that is coming out about Iran paying off the Afganies, and so on, and the inhumane treatment of people, the murder and the bloodshed, and our own crooked politicos—-but really the world is NO different than it has always been; some very good people and some very bad and most in between. I just have to keep reminding myself God is in control.

Unfortunately, most of our “leaders” are about IMHO as single minded as a buck goat—and I can’t think of anything that is more self centered and bent on only one thing, pleasing himself, than a buck goat! Nasty creatures! LOL Only kept one for “business” a few weeks a year and then he was GONE ASAP! LOL

Glad you stopped in, hang around a while, there’s some good folks here and we are all learning together to overcome what the psychopaths have done to us—to heal and become stronger, support others who have been used/abused. A great place to be if you need to be here. This place has been a great support to me for sure.


There are many men who are Sociopaths. The Media and Political arena’s attract them. There are those in both political parties. There are also women who are Sociopaths in these fields. I have not followed Gov Spitzer or the other former Governor to know enough to label them Sociopaths myself personally. I have followed Glenn Beck and Bill O’Riley enough to know they are Sociopaths. Unfortunately, there are 2 women in Politics right now that are also Sociopaths, and they have gotten a lot of media attention. It scares me to death to think that Sarah Palin could run for President. Sociopathic Women have a slightly different method of controlling and manipulating, and abusing. The gender differences exist in healthy men and women as they do in the sick men and women. Sarah Palin distorts, lies, manipulates, and abuses using passive aggressive, covert tactics. She has NEVER apoligized for any inappropriate comment she has made. She is full of hate, but expresses it passively. Her feud with the Murkowski family is childish. She has a lower approval rating in Alaska than Obama has, which shows that those who know her better, do not trust her. She talks of Death Panels, and has no clue how to create jobs. She uses her religion and the political scene as a pulpit to bring attention to herself. Her daughter is a Sociopath in the making, her husband Todd is a Co-Dependent. The potential son in law will either become a co-dependent, or suffer the wrath of Sarah, and never get to be a father to his son. She is a pathological liar, and a Fraud. Christine O’Donnell is another Sociopath. She lied on her resume about attending “Oxford”. She knew very well that she lied, but never apologized about it, just quietly changed her “Bio” to include the fact that she attended a “Course” on the campus at Oxford, that was unaffiliated in any way with the school itself. This is just one example of many lies, distortions, half truths, and deceptions that she uses. Women Sociopaths are manipulative. They use their charm and figuratively seduce innocent voters, innocent people with little knowledge of the Sociopath disorder. Ignorance is HUGE in our society and it is going to haunt us for many years if we do not address it. The Psychological Profession has failed us miserably because they gave in to the Lawyers/Legal pressures many years ago. Keep it a secret, protect them, and you will benefit financially! The Lawyers all benefit from the Failure of the Psychological Profession to actually DIAGNOSE these people definitively. The wishy washy language they use enables and supports the Sociopathic personality in LEgal settings. The Truth has been lost in the muddied halls of justice, and it is making the LAwyers and Judges rich. Nowhere is this more prevalent than in the Family Court System! I married a Sociopath and did not realize it for several years. I have educated myself and I understand it better than most Psychologists do. My 2 children have been figuratively kidnapped both emotionally and psychologically by my ex wife. The courts have supported her all the way. The Guardians have lied to support her, the psychological evaluation reviewed by the State Board after she filed a complaint was deemed valid, yet the courts ignore it and give her custody? IT is crazy. My son is likely going to be the worst victim of the abusive parenting and the Sociopathic agenda. She is a nurse and former Social Worker and works for the county. MAny employees in this system are Soicopaths. Some are just man haters. We have a problem with the way we raise boys because we destroy their fathers, and treat them like financial slaves. There are more young boys being raised by Sociopathic single mothers in this country than you could ever count. MY daughter understands there is something wrong with her mother. She has written 6 letters to the judge asking to live with me. She will be 14 soon. She is a fabulous young lady, does well in school, and comes to see me every chance she gets. My son is 16, drugged up by his mother on ADHD medication. It gives her control, keeps his self esteem low, and makes him her co-dependent. IT is criminal child abuse. She has a history of alcohol abuse, sleeping pills, anti-depression drugs, and is a world class liar! It is sad. It is sick. Boys are more susceptible to this abuse because their brains do not develop the cognitive decision making abilities until the late teens and even early twenties. We are a society that is ignoring this “Silent plague” that is destroying more lives than any war we have ever fought. These boys being raised by their sociopathic mothers do not have a chance in life.It needs to stop. Every time my daughter comes over and stays over, she is verbally abused by her mother. She has been told lies by the Guardians, and refuses to give in. My son now assists his mother in her evil effort to alienate my daughter from me. The Family Court System is a Criminal Operation that is responsible for more child abuse by far than any other “legal” aspect of any society in modern times. Sociopathy is becoming more prevalent because this system enables them, supports them, and hires them! I would bet that 2 of the 3 Guardians we have had are Sociopaths themselves. We need to NEVER allow ANYONE to be involved in making legal decisions for our children UNLESS they have gone through a complete PSychological Evaluation themselves!!! First and foremost, this must be a requirement.Psychologists and Social Workers get their degrees without having to submit to a PSyche Eval? That is a crazy society that is failing miserably to protect the mental and psychological health of its children, and exposing them to abuse that is the root cause of most of the issues we face today. More crime, drug abuse, fatherless children, motherless children, poverty, failed education, and dysfunction is caused by the family court system than ANY OTHER ELEMENT of our Society. We need to wake up and we need to go after the Lawmaker’s and the LAwyers and the Judges. We need a complete rebuilding of this system now.


Dear Pernicious Family courts,

I’m so sorry that you had this disturbed woman as your spouse. She continues to put you through hell and won’t stop because, in her disordered mind, she feels like the victim. And we wonder why other people can’t see this, they have the proof in front of their eyes.

It’s the bloody charm of the spath, they can fool even the best psychologists, social workers, judges, etc. Women probably get away with more because we are typically thought of as nurturing and they can’t wrap their mind around someone being that cold.

I would have to agree with you about Sara Palin. I don’t know why people fall under her spell. She is not that bright, gave up the governorship before her term was up, (who does that?), and clearly self promotes and manipulates. When given a prepared speech, she is good and suave, charasmatic too. Not really a good enough reason to lead anyone! We have Michelle Bachman in my state who is just as awful. She was hiding behind bushes and spying on people outside the state capitol when she was a state rep. They even had her picture on the news and people still vote for her. Go figure.

I’m really sad for your children, but you need to be the good role model and try to undue some of the damage. At least your daughter gets it, mine does too. The psychologists tell me to keep the kids out of it, I don’t know if this applies to sociopathic exes. How do we warn our kids without seeming bitter?

Keep posting and sharing!


Ihave been reading the articles and blogs on this site for 6months. I have been with a sociopath for the past 12 years. I feel shattered, he has once again disappeared tothe Philipppines to see a woman he met on 6 years ago. I so want to end this relationship, I am so scared when I think of life without him, isn’t that appalling, to be afraid to let go of someone who is a total fake. My goodness I must be so flawed. I am beating myself up over it. I know I have to sever complete contact, never have any contact at all ever again. Im trying to get myself in a place where I am strong enough to do that. I get help by reading the blogs and know that I am not alone, but I feel so alone.


no you aren’t alone.
You are loved. you are one of us.

It’s time for you to focus on YOU. 12 years is 12 years too long, don’t let it turn into 25 like I did! Get out now.

Bella, know that he is not going to see this woman in the phillipines just to see a woman. He went there to torture YOU.

They don’t think like we do. They love to torture. Don’t let him. Get away and go NC.


Dr. Leedom,

I feel your pain quite a bit. My husband physically abused me until all of our children were taken into foster care. On the one hand, I am responsible for not taking the measures to remove him from our life. But on the other hand, he made life so miserable if I tried to get away that after so many attempts, I was numb to any sort of reasonable ideas. I could not tell up from down, and although I knew right from wrong, I overlooked much of what I knew to be wrong in the hopes of sparing us any further pain. I have our youngest back in my personal care again, but the rest of our children were not mine biologically so I have “no rights to them” and that is very hard. Even though I have made obvious strides in his absence to right the wrongs, there is so much shame to live down everyday. Just when I begin to forget the lies that have been attached to me, I run into an old acquaintance that remembers the old way of looking at things. That’s rough. It’s very hard to explain to people who have skewed stories from HIS twisted perspective in their memory banks that that was all BS, especially when these old acquaintances retain such a glowing view of my sociopath husband. It makes me sick.


i realized this morning that i will get over what the spath did to me – how she damaged my trust of other people. i will get over it, i should try to get over it (that’s called ‘hope’ folks!), and i can get over it!

Ox Drover

Dear BeAware

Welcome to Lovefraud—and I am so sorry that you have endured what you have at the hands of an abuser to bring you here. But now that you are here, there is support and knowledge and knowledge = power and strength!

Yes, it is painful when we run into people who believe the smear campaign that they spread about us, but YOU know the truth, and ultimately what YOU think about YOU is the most important thing. I’m glad that you have your child back, and I know it must be painful not to have the others, but at maybe right now one child gives you a chance to focus on taking care of that child AND to focusing on taking care of YOURSELF.

Read and learn, post and heal…there’s great support here. Again, Welcome. and God bless.

Ox Drover

Dear Bellabell,

Welcome to lovefraud. While it may not seem like you “won” when he leaves you for another woman, but actually you did! YOU WON! He is no longer there to torture you. You are FREE now, to heal and to grow. I’m sorry for your pain but the pain will pass, I promise you it will if you learn and grow. You will emerge on the other side of the pain a better and stronger person, happier!~

You need him like you need a large boil on the bottom of your foot!

Again, welcome! and God bless.


Hi Eden and Roses,
posted on this thread as the thread – cutting ourselves some slack, is getting too long and the file is not opening easily,at least at my end.
have been reading your posts and Eden thanks once again for the timely advice few days ago when it was late at night in your part of the world.
Meeting the wife and ex’s and getting validation does help us in healing, I have also thought that it can give us huge relief that it was them, their nonsense, their game and we were duped.
Eden you knew the guy for 9.5 months and me for one year. I think we saw the red flags soon enough and I spoke to Oxy and came to this site and we were saved and should consider ourselves blessed.
Mine is an N, told to him by his therapist, though he thinks there is nothing wrong with him. I remember when he told me he had cheated 6 times in the past on the wife, he said it with such a blank look on his face, there was no remorse, regret, guilt, shame and I thought he did not want to dwell much into it and gave it a pass. He did not say that I feel so bad, that I did this to my wife and family, nothing of that sort, instead he kept saying, I don’t know what happened to me, I cannot recognise that part of me, I do not want to see that part of me again, more like he was saying it was a mistaken identity or that he was posssessed rather than accepting that he was impulsive and did not care for his family and jumped into bed with the women when he was overseas at meetings and then went home and was the lovely husband and father as if nothing had happened. this went on for few years, and as Oxy said one can cheat once as a mistake or wrong decision, but 6 times !!, there has to be something intrinsically wrong there.
to think that this guy is such a renowned specialist in a world famous medical centre in the USA and behind that medical profession is a man whose moral values are non-existent.
Oxy has drilled it into my head and she is 100% right, that rule no 1 is : honesty from the man, if he does not fit into rule #1, all other attributes are meaningless.
I feel so fatigued by the whole experience, there were so many red flags even quite at the start and I thought it was just his way of expressing his love, when it was all fake. I once wrote to friend in Canada about him and showed her one of his emails to me, and she said ”“ Gosh, he sure can write well for a guy, looks like his words are right out of a novel” she was right, they were from a novel, the novel named “Narcisssists play book”. often when we were close he would say the words ” I am yours, you are mine”, the first time I thought it came spontaneously, however, later, it was as if the words were pre-programmed, everytime we were cosy with each other ”“ the same words were said.
I was so stupid, how I got fooled.
Roses and Eden, I think we are at about the same stage in healing, I think we are making decent progress.
you both and others here have been so helpful, it would have been very difficult to come out of the fog, without your help.
thanks again

lesson learned


I understand what you’re saying here and I appreciate every word of it. you’ve really come a long way though.

I want to share something with you after having read a lot of articles last night along with the comments and coming to a very powerful realization INSIDE myself.. and yet another this morning while turning this issue over and over with the O for Umbrella issue with Questy via email.

You’re a very intelligent woman. Self made and successful and so is your ex.
I come from a background of massively intelligent people. largely SPATH. They are also “wealthy”.

The O for Umbrella article awhile back really got me to thinking about how the spaths do what they do and the concepts of evil. Quest and I don’t agree on some things, while I think we do on others. It’s interesting to delve into the mechanisms behind the Spaths machinations. HOW they twist and tie the knots in our heads.

Those emails as well as this blog, have been a major blessing for me (along with therapy and support of friends, etc).

So anyway, I was responding to one of Questy’s emails and while responding, something VERY profound dawned on me. Now this goes to the argument that spaths are logical and are gifted at the art of philosophical gymnastics. That isn’t verbatim, however, that is how Questy sees it. And that is TRUE….but while responding to that, what came to mind were events from childhood and my massively intelligent spathy fam and their endless debates that would go on for HOURS at a time at times.

Philosophical gymnastics, VERBAL gymnastics. I rarely participated in these debates but observed them. It occurred to me that while the beginning of these debates SOUNDED REASONABLE AND LOGICAL….as it went ON, it became ridiculous … why is that? Because the logic was forfeited BY THE NEED TO WIN!!!! WHY did I not see this with my spaths who were also extremely intelligent and gifted at verbal and philosophical gymnastics? Because I was EMOTIONALLY INVESTED……….I had emotional distance during my observations. I was NEVER intimate with my spath fam. It also occurred to me that if I had been able to get past the INITIAL VERBAL GYMNASTICS (at the beginning of the relationshit), it would have been EASY to see that the NEED TO WIN (on whatever level) replaced logic and served up a huge plate of emotional ineptitude. I allowed my emotions to part ways with my logical side. I approached my relationshits in a DREAM LIKE STATE. I was NOT in my right mind to OBSERVE what was happening and to see that eventually the “debate” turned from logical reasoning to the NEED TO WIN…..well this goes for the emotional side too.

It is from THIS perspective that has opened up a whole new way of looking at what happened to me. It is also a piece DIRECTLY from childhood that could have spared me spathdom had I been OBSERVING the separation between logic and the need to WIN. Even into adulthood, these debates were inevitably ruinous, ridiculous, and even grossly amusing. Not for what they were, but for what they were NOT. On this level a spath gives himself/herself away almost IMMEDIATELY when viewed from a LOGICAL perspective. How many red flags were waving in the wind with that first WTF moment out of spaths mouth? Almost from the BEGINNING.

This is a HUGE HUGE HUGE enlightenment for me! (Questy THANK YOU FOR YOUR WILLINGNESS TO BANTER!).

There IS something to be said for keeping your emotions out of an initial encounter with anyone and it is a SAFETY precaution when viewed from an OBSERVERS PERSPECTIVE AND WITH ONE’S LOGICAL SIDE IN FULL GEAR!!!!

When observing these debates with spathy fam, it was so easy to see how ludicrous their need to win was. RIGHT AWAY.

I could also look at this from an emotional level as well. My last spath did not move in for “win” right away. He was an extremely intelligent, very STEALTH, PATIENT spath. A LOT of them are. This added another dimension for the “need to win”. It’s more like playing chess for him, rather than being a runner attempting to win an olympic race. He was EXACTLY like my spath bio father and sister and brother, BUT had I been paying attention to this, it would have been GLARINGLY OBVIOUS within the first initial contact or two, how LUDICROUS his intellectual patience and attempts to lure REALLY WERE. In hindsight, and in a flood of memories from initial contact with spath, it was EXACTLY like those debates from bio fam. Those wtf moments were ALMOST IMMEDIATE!!!!! As was the way he ABUSED ME because my defenses were down, logic was GONE, as was my ability to OBSERVE what was happening.

What a MONUMENTAL discovery for me!!!

I wonder, Petitie, given as intelligent as you are and your spath is……..does any of this resonate with you at all? I think this element of ludicrousness comes into play in EVERY facet of their lives, no matter HOW good they are at what they do , nor HOW much money they make. My bio father was a higher up in a government agency for over forty five years, but in TRUTH his talents were LIMITED by his inability to insert emotional intelligence with any genuineness whatsoever. He was able to MANIPULATE those who were NOT merely observing the way my bio father did business from an intellectual perspective. He preyed upon the innocent who could NEVER have been onto him without some sort of understanding about his psychological dynamics, which adds another critical element into why it’s so important in what Donna and so many others are attempting to do in educating the public about sociopaths.

My father, as far as I know, is VERY WELL respected STILL in the governmental arena to which he served, but just as equally, there are those who HATE my father with a murderous passion. The ONE time he attempted to leave the government (massive grandiosity and entitlement issues), to start a private business doing what he did in his position with the government, lasted only SIX MONTHS because of MASSIVE improprieties and allegations of sexual harassment. Kind of makes ya wonder about the government, whom I believe still abides the by the “good ole boy” system. Was my father really that good in his job, or was his ass covered at every level. Probably a bit of both.

I’m rambling now, but I am curious as to whether or not any of this resonates with you.

This is a critical element of understanding the evil machinations behind how spaths do what they do and in my healing.



one/joy/hope/step at a time – tow wander….~! see all it took was standing on your head ~!



You are so very welcome. Whether you know it or not, you have helped me as well. I am so glad that I was there for you at a time you needed it most. I was able to see that the red flags were in fact just that, once I was out of the relationship. I questioned things at the moment they had occurred or come about, but the speed and acuracy within his amazingly convincing explanations of things, or the way I may have “misunderstood” what he was putting across, was very affective in causing me to believe in him and to let it go and not give it another thought.

We cannot let ourselves believe that we were weak or ignorant. If you are like me, this is not a common occurance in our lives. For me, as far as I know, it had been my first experience, with a Psychopath. Or at least, in depth enough for me to be affected by it and in turn, recognize that it was in fact just that.

I remember a while back, Roses had been curious about the differences in victims/survivors who had, and had not had a history of/with P/S/ N’s within their lives. I was thinking about this the other day. I think it could come down to this: We either don’t recognize it at first because we do not have past experience with it, or we do not recognize it right away because we are conditioned to it from our past. Does this make any sense. I don’t think we should put to much thought into this aspect of it, as that can just keep us stuck, but I do believe that it is very important to learn skills and to keep in mind what to look for or be aware of from this point forward, so that we may protect ourselvels from future evil occurrences. Please forgive my spelling.




Thank you for sharing the introspections between you and Quest. You sure delve deep into certain areas.



I like your thoughts about why we didn’t recognize it.
In my case my parents were narcissists and they raised 2 of my siblings to be sociopaths. So I was used to it and the behavior didn’t seem so offensive. Add to that, I was raised to put others before myself (specifically my spath bro and spath sis), so my perception of love is kind of messed up. I thought that people who love you try to control you, as my parents did. And that people who love you depend on you to rescue them constantly as my sis and bro did. So yes, being raised in a spathy family just makes you feel like this is how life is and you have no other expectations.

But I wonder about people who were NOT raised with N’s and P’s. When they notice the spath behavior it would seem foreign to them and they would naturally recoil from it.

So what could make them stay? I’m thinking it is that some spaths are very keenly aware of how different they are and they put on a very good facade. When the spath behavior shows up, they are quick to have an excuse for it.

My own spath described himself as “eccentric” and “unique”. By using these words, which are certainly more acceptable than “sociopathic”, they can lull us into accepting that they are just human beings with flaws or differences. Add to that, the Christian commandment, “judge not lest ye be judged” and we’re left in a confused state. Lastly, if we have never been taught that there are these creatures out there, then we don’t have a prayer at escaping them. They have all the advantages. That’s why they call us sheep.

So it seems that there are two ways to protect the next generation from spaths. One, is through correct emotional upbringing (get them used to and liking healthy relationships). The other is through educating them so that they can recognize a healthy relationship vs. a spath-relationship.

lesson learned


I like to because it helps bring new things to the surface to learn or more questions to ask.

I was just reading an article or two here of kathleen Hawks about anger. I think I’ve definitely hit that point in the process. I’m angry i didn’t see the signs, even the signs I saw in childhood…having said that you make perfect sense in saying that a psychopath would be difficult to detect because one has never experienced it, or difficult to see because one has. I think that’s pretty much right on. It leads me to believe that ANYONE can be caught up in their machinations, and one doesn’t have to come from such a dysfunctional background for it to happen. One thing I have noticed a lot though is that those who have NOT had background of abuse, tend to recover more quickly than those who have. While that’s discouraging, it sure does make sense.

I think part of my fascination in trying to understand how psychopaths function (how they manipulate/gaslight/etc) is because it IS my background. I want to understand it as much as I can to avoid it again in the future. What is somewhat encouraging is that there WERE things from my childhood, signals that told me even my spath family was off. The debates they had, and my observances of them were also significant in that even though there was horrible abuse and craziness around me, there was still yet apart of me that was able to SEE what was going on. I just wasn’t able to define it verbally or integrate it into my life as a non pattern of getting involved with spaths. It was simply too familiar. I’m recognizing how eerilly similar last spath is to my bio fam. Far more than ex P ever was.

It’s important to me now to hold onto that significance of those observances of spath bio fam from childhood. They are validating and i can take that into my future. I can learn to trust myself. There were many times in my life where I was told not to trust myself or that my thinking was wrong….when actually, when it came down to spaths, and their intentions, it was accurate. I carry a great deal of anger from being told to ignore what I was feeling and then eventually, I DID ignore ALL my gut instinct. It was a habit. It was how I survived. I don’t have to survive that way anymore. One of my biggest triggers and something that seems so disrespectful to me is when someone says, YOU”RE WRONG……….um…………it absolutely nails me every single time. Not that I don’t MIND being wrong and I’ll think on it and if I’m wrong, I”M WRONG, but I find this term particularly offensive as of late and it flat pisses me off! This is what spath and bio fam did to me on constant basis. You’re wrong, you assume, you do this and do that…….which is somewhat true because to some degree, everyone at one point or another, “assumes” or is “Wrong’ about something..but the way a spath says it means something entirely different.

I won’t be neglecting that part of myself again


Eden, you are very blessed to have this as your first encounter and not more than that. I can see your strength AND healthy responses to your situation. It’s neat to see you come out of this so quickly and what is even better is watching you OWN all of it, with each step in the process.

That’s encouraging to me.



I can see that you and I have that in common. We both really need to understand the spaths. It might be in part because we know that being raised with spaths, we will always gravitate toward them emotionally. So without the intellectual understanding and knowledge, we are more vulnerable than someone who wasn’t raised by spaths. Their instincts will protect them, while our instincts actually put us at risk.

About the only situation where being raised by spaths would be advantageous, is in a war zone, in which case your ability to trauma bond could save you. Also if you decide to become a spy, like in the movie “Salt” with Angelina Jolie, being able to lie could be helpful.

One person that I know who was raised by N’s and still has a protective coating, is my oldest sister. She wasn’t abused very much. They mostly left her alone. She was quiet and distant. She wanted to be a nun, then a doctor and finally became a teacher. Her thinking was influenced more by the nuns at school than by my parents. She knew nothing about sociopaths but has such strict standards and ethics that she won’t let anything slide and she NEVER puts up with crap from anyone. She seems to be an anomoly and I can’t quite figure out how she did it.



I haven’t finished reading your post, above but wanted to reply before I lose my thought… In regard to the second paragraph within your post, you can use this as a way to know or to counter the thoughts about yourself you had been expressing and were concerned about, reharding having some evil within you. Look at the fact that even when you were young, you KNEW there was something not right about the way the conversations were going within your family. I believe this means that you do bot posses any evil at all, because you could identify the narcissism, or what-have-you, in their conversations. This is a good thing, Roses. Read what you wrote and absorb it fully!

I am going back now, to read the remainder of what you wrote.


lesson learned


You have such CLARITY in your posts. I WISH i could achieve that level of clarity when I write. It’s like knowing what I want to say, however, not articulating it CLEARLY…just rambling thoughts, but you are RIGHT ON! It IS very important for me to understand it logically and intellectually. This was something that was already in place as a child but squelched with all that I saw before me. This is also important in helping me to identify my triggers. What the spaths did that triggers me now……..present triggers connected to old, such as you’re WRONG. When someone says that to me, I just come COMPLETELY unglued. It’s what last spath did to me constantly (denying my reality) and it’s what bio spaths did (again, denying my reality). It also causes me to SHUT DOWN. I get angry, then I shut down and spend the next several hours, days WEEKS. trying to figure out what I did that was so WRONG. Mind you emphasis here< WRONG. Well of course my observations were WRONG. They had to be. It was a no win situation. And there's another trigger. Winning/losing. EVERYTHING in spath bio fam was a competition. EVERYTHING a triangulation. I can't recall a dynamic that wasn't triangulation. I could SEE IT, I could OBSERVE it, I could be a VICTIM of it, even PERPETRATE IT, but I COULD NOT articulate it as the evil that it was. What a MESS!!!

I think the observances of those debates has such significance for me for a multitude of reasons, in watching how spaths operate. It's all about WINNING, not about LOVING. So winning means EMOTIONS go out the window (exception anger in the debate), but guess what else goes out the window with it? LOGIC….to win at all costs, even while it doesn't make any sense. This is where the cut off was for me. I absorbed all of that. With last spath, it was about WINNING. Because I loved him, I saw that i was WRONG. Does this make sense? If I see it as an observance of what happened, there was no logic, no emotion, it was about WINNING. I can't recall how many times he would say to me, "fine, you win, you always win"….WTF? COUNTLESS times…….

I NEVER understood that because I didn't say or do anything to WIN with him, I LOVED him. But for him, it was an endless competition. I was smart, and he knew it. So did my bio fam and what better way to try to destroy someone than to tell them they're constantly wrong in denying their reality or their perceptions so you (editorially) can WIN. WTF?

But that's really what it's all about with spaths. The need to win. The POWER of winning……it's always a one uppance. I see what it is now. Just what to do with it or how to deal with it without a TON of anger? I haven't figured that one out yet.

Eden, you are absolutely correct. And I am in process of doing just that too. THAT hits the nail right on the head!


lesson learned


I don’t know how your sister did it either, other than that she was basically left alone. Perhaps she was just an observer and decided that that was NOT for her. I believe there are those that are lucky enough not to be directly touched by abuse, even though they lived with it as a child and draw healthy conclusions from that. That is PRECISELY the boat I unfortunately was not on lol, even if I knew what was going on was more than strange.


your posts are what brought out my clarity!

Your post about winning is making me think about that too. My bf has had a couple of little pouting sessions because he says I “negate” him. Huh? Well, I did tell him he was wrong when I thought he was wrong. Does he want a “yes man” around him? Well that ain’t me! I tend toward bluntness, but sheesh! I think he’s too sensitive. He was also raised by an N/P mom, so that helps me understand it a bit better, thanks.

on the other hand, I made a suggestion for a way to publicize his new product and he said, “no, we will NOT be deceptive in anyway with this company.” And he had a small fit.

I didn’t suggest we should deceive, but I had posted in a forum under a different name and not my own. And I didn’t post any lies, I only posted, “Hey guys check out this new product my friend invented, here’s the website.” It worked. He got some traffic.

Then yesterday, his two friends suggested that they would post on forums and say, “I just bought x product from x website and it’s really cool, check it out, I love mine!” Now THAT would be a lie because they are not stating their REAL relationship to the manufacturer. But BF came running up to me and told me that this was a great idea that his two friends came up with blah, blah, blah…and he was going to let them do it.

I was flabbergasted. First of all, it wasn’t a new idea, secondly, when you lie like that you get busted. Anyone who frequents a forum, knows that the forum bloggers are immediately going to suspect a newbie whose very first post is, “hey! buy this! I did and I love it!” If you’re going to post, post the truth. and btw, no one cares what your real name is.

Anyway, I bitched him out. He seemed sorry. He certainly admitted he was wrong. But I asked him a question: are you stupid or are you doing this on purpose? I still don’t have an answer.


Skylar & Roses,

It is interesting to read what you expressed that you see in me. Because of the experience I had with the P, I still feel vulnerable and not 100% sure footed, just yet. But I am working on it. And don’t forget, if you have been reading any of my other posts, I am still at times very enraged at what he has done and has taken from me. On another note, I understand what you are saying about being told you are wrong. I am a huge believer in the fact that everyone on this planet has a mind of their own (I am not including the P/S/N’s in my referrences here) and a right to think the way they do, even if it doesn’t match the thoughts of the N. Please do not think that I am calling my family perfect. Yes, I do know that my parents and my family in general are healthy minded, however my parents were and still are big supporters of using therapy to get through the things that we are unable to resolve on our own, or between us. My sisters and I were introduced to therapy before we were in our teens. I think I was 12 (wow come to think of it, maybe it was a puberty thing, lol). Anyway, my sisters and I just got lucky that we have smart parents, that had enough awareness and the desire to raise their children in a healthy way. But it wasn’t that everything was just perfectly perfect all of the time. And I did get a tast of other familie’s dynamics. I have lost my train of thought so now I am the one who is rambling. Sorry.

Skylar and Roses,
Don’t think that I haven’t been spending way to much time researching the “Devil”. Trust me I have. I have found it incredibly facsinating and most disturbing. In fact, in the beginning, when I was doing most of my learning and having such vivid realizations about what he had done and said, I developed so much anger and resentment. I am still somewhat obsessed with gaining knowledge, however, I am now more focused on ways to lighten my anger. I am so grateful that I found these particular homeopathics that I had made mention of, as they are doing wonders for me, and I fortunately got matched up with an incredible therapist at UCLA who has worked with people who have been victimized by Psychopaths.

Here is an example of what happens to me that gets me angry: One of the things that was brought on by this experience is loss of hair. Today, as I was brushing my hair and pulling it back into a ponytail, I saw the balding areas were getting worse, in front. I cried. I am angry. He had this power over me. I never had a health issue in my life. Since this occurance, I have had to start taking a bit of a thyroid pill, pills for my adrenals, pills for the bumps all over my scalp that come and go. Today, as I was sweeping my floors, I must have swept up enough hair to give to make a child size wig. I know it is because of him, because, I had my physical recently and my bloodwork showed that I am still nowhere close to being menopausal, and I was in great health other than the ailments brought on by trauma induced stress, I am told. My blood pressure has always been low, now it is borderlining on normal to high. My doctor says all of what is going on with me can eventually be regulated and I will be able to go off of the pills (most of which are natural remedies, but still…). Yes, I was in it for only 9 months, but this just shows how Psychopathic this devil was/is, as he wreaked such an abundance of havock in such a short amount of time, in comparison to most, that is.

Thank you for the venting session, and for listening/reading. Wow, I think I needed to release all of that.




I’m so sorry about your hair. They certainly affect our health. I think maybe it’s the sensation of not being safe, that messes with our immune system. The adrenals get overworked in fight/flight response and the thyroid goes into low mode. My thyroid is also low.

Are your homeopathics still working? I haven’t begun mine because I’d have to drive to my cabin and I hate going there since he has left a gaggle of sociopaths in my neighborhood and I don’t like going up there for that reason. He planted them there as part of his plan to drive me to suicide. But he failed because he is STUPID.

Seriously, this man had every advantage. He was completely covert. I suspected NOTHING. I couldn’t even IMAGINE such a thing. I was loyal like a dog. He recruited people to do his dirty work, so it was me against at least a dozen people all of whom knew what I didn’t know. He kept me in constant fear and poverty. It was psychological warfare for 25 years.

So why was I able to get the upper hand every once in a while and why was I able to escape in the end? Well, I have to first of all give credit to God, but also because he was STUPID! Thank you, I needed to vent too! Just thinking about all the crap I was subjected to requires some deep breathing exercises! Argh!

Anyway…you were saying about your health and your anger…
I learned from Kathleen Hawk that anger is a mechanism for identifying when there is danger. It helps us to draw boundaries between what is good for us and what isn’t. So perhaps we are angry until we can intellectualize it and then we don’t need anger anymore. We can protect ourselves with wisdom instead of anger.

Mostly, I’m not angry at my STUPID spath. I get angry when I think of the spaths that he left in my life: my spath neighbors, the cops in town and the trojan horse spath that married my sister. I want them GONE. They do make me angry. How do I get rid of them? I don’t want to be driven off, I was there first. I’m thinking about blackmailing spath. Not for money, but to force him to remove the spath slime he left in my life. That I would love to do.


Thank you, Skylar,

It isn’t my hair I care about, although you probably got that already. It is the reminder of the fact that he had an affect on me. Yes the Homeopathics are still working. Each day, since I started taking them, I feel less and less overcome. I know it is because of them, as yesterday, I had forgotten to take them after my first dose in the morning, by 5:00, I thought hmm, feeling it creeping back, them realized, I had not taken them since about 8:00 AM. Today, despite the reminder, by my hair loss issue, I am feeling even better. I am still doing other things as well. I write a lot, go Paddle Surfing as much as possible and started jogging on the beach again, which I had stopped doing a few weeks into the relationship. Exercise, especially exercising in nature is extremely helpful, but I swear it is the Homeopathic pills that have made most of the recent difference, I believe.

My Psychopath was also somewhat stupid. Probably more than I noticed, on the surface. Blackmail sounds good. Be careful though after all that you have stated about him. I would not want to see anything negative happen to you!


lesson learned

((((((((((((( Eden! ))))))))))))))))))

Firstly, I’m so terribly sorry about your hair issue. I so understand this it is unbelievable. My thyroid has been affected by what I believe is stress, for years now. Since I was about twenty two. It’s gotten WORSE and far more so over the last two years. I’ve been monitored regularly for the last two years, but went six months without a blood check. This was within the last year with spath. I was becoming so incredibly ill and I knew NOT what was wrong,but began to think that it was something other than premenopausal symptoms. I was also very high in blood pressure, which continued to rise each month that I was checked at the doctor (yes I go regularly once a month), and my hair was coming out and my scalp was so itchy I thought I had head lice lol! I had my daughter checking my head constantly. I would have no idea where the head lice would have come from, but it wasn’t. My skin was enormously dry, but not just my scalp, I just noticed it more as my hair was also falling out. Not enough in the clumps you are describing to donate to locks of love, but, well, enough to notice it in my hair brush. I also had heart palpitations, and was exceptionally exhausted all the time. My doctor noticed the changes and wanted blood work done and sure enough, my thyroid was dangerously low. My rbc’s were totally off as was my white cell count, monocyte count and one other count. I”ve been told that my rbc’s could be off because i smoke. Really? THey’ve NEVER been off in any blood count I’ve ever had. I have to take the thyroid meds the rest of my life. I am now going through menopause and am having less periods than I’m having them, but with that comes major mood swings and hot flashes that may, undoubtedly, find me in a heap of ashes in a grocery store check out line! My weight, however is perfect and I have a great figure. Go figure. It’s what’s inside that is a mess. I’m now struggling with an ear infection, and I understand your anger, Eden. I have an std so bad right now, and I’m murderously pissed that I got it from him. I try NOT to think about it too much, because I either dissolve into tears or I want to hit someone, mainly HIM! Once in awhile I think about going into another relationship someday. Well, I’m NOT going to lie about my std. I’ll have it the rest of my effing life. And he walks away without any signs of infection and i say SIGNS of infection. Bastard. And you can bet he’s not telling his new gf either. BASTARD!!!! **sigh**……it’s the one thing, Eden, the one word that passes my lips more than at least ten times a day. The bad memories, as I get out of the fog, are more so than the good ones and if I dare feel my dancing into “I love you, J”….it turns immediately into a bad memory, followed quickly by “BASTARD!”. The other night, I came home from the store, contemplating the mean, rotten nasty horrible things he did and I screamed and cried in my car for what felt like an hour. Damn him. Damn me. I hate that I’m in this place because of what he did to me. I HATE IT!!

Eden, I want to apologize if I came off as minimizing your experience. I DO understand how you feel and saw a post the other day acknowledging your anger. I admire that you can so readily own it. I also admire that you did come from a background that reinforced good emotional health. ONe of the things you said about your parents resonates with me so well and helps me in my own parenting. ANY time I saw something out of line with my kids, or if I found out about it, it was to the therapist LOL!!! With every single child, it was meds/therapy or a combination of it all. Today, my son, who is now a recovered juvenile sex offender, told me “Mom, I’m so grateful that you kicked me out of the house and into the system…if you’d not done that, I wouldn’t be the man I am today”. A mother’s love, sometimes means giving up that child to face incredible pain…and/or consequences. I was and am and have been, always willing to do that, no matter the emotional cost to me, to my pride, to my well being or not. That situation with my son was traumatic. I’m still not over that part of it. And spath owns that about me too. Those secrets. Soooooooooo many secrets of which I refuse to keep anymore…..keeping everything a secret was also part of spathy’s plan as well as from bio fam spath plan…..sssshhhh don’t tell…….well, when there is abuse I WILL SPEAK UP!, even if it’s my own damned kid……this is the first place I have gone where I have not been kicked out, judged, blown off, wounded, traumatized further and kicked around the block because of my son’s actions. I think Ox was one of the first to express such loving kindness towards me with something that my son did that people equate to murder if not worse. She has been through it. And that alone provided immense healing to a wounded, hurting soul. Mama bear ((Ox))…

UGH!! Rambling again!!!

Eden, your intelligence, insight and perceptiveness in going through what you are going through so inspires me. You are wise beyond wise, given your experience. I’m constantly blown away by those here who weather these experiences and go through and cross to the other side stronger than when they showed up here. I SEE this in you. Please don’t think I’m minimizing what you’re going through and I DO understand it.

Sky….your experience is just horrendous in what your spath was doing to you. I’ve often wonder if my spath was not drugging his wife too. If he was not, he was sure killing her emotionally. She was sick A LOT. Now she’s the healthiest she has ever been in her life too and one HOT MAMA!! LOL!! HE IS SO STUPID!!! I’m so incredibly HAPPY FOR HER!! After all the years he put her through help, with me as an accomplice, she deserves love and peace. So do you sky. If there is a way to get rid of the slime left behind, do it. Does it matter that you were there first or does your sanity mean more? That’s a judgment call on your part and I’m supportive. I know you’ll do the right thing.

About the trigger with being “wrong”…..after hearing it so long…….there is one thing I have learned not to do with others. If I do it, I APOLOGIZE………when someone says point blank, “YOUR”E WRONG”……….or “WRONG!”……that is an effort to make that person feel LESS in my opinion. That word was used to do that to me my entire existence. I don’t think there is anything “wrong” (lol) with saying that you believe someone is wrong, but is it really WRONG or is it just a disagreement? Even if it’s “Wrong” who is it that you’re saying that too? Saying that someone is “wrong” for me, means that you’re denying THEIR opinion and reality, which is, well in fact, WRONG lol!! We all have a perception as to what is right or wrong FOR OURSELVES….and there are definitely things that are wrong that are just flat wrong…….spaths being one of them lol…….ok, now that sounds contradictory **sigh**…..

If someone says “I disagree with you”, rather than “You’re wrong!!” it opens up room for discussion. What “YOU”RE WRONG” or “WRONG” means is that that person no longer cares to hear your opinion, it doesn’t matter and so move on……

It’s ENTRENCHED, this idea of YOU”RE WRONG! ………..I like the exchange of ideas. Something that was NOT allowed in my spath family or with past spaths or my exP. I disagree with you, opens up lines of communication for an invite for an exchange of ideas, which a spath WILL NOT ALLOW….this is why the word bothers me when put forth as an accusation of sorts. It’s a stop gap measure to shut your mouth. It’s unfriendly and is dishonest. What would be simpler, in my opinion, is “Ya know what? You’re wrong, my opinion stands or I dont want to hear your opinion so fuck off”.

Well fuck off isn’t nice, but I heard that too when I stood up to “you’re wrong”. I’m mindful of this when I’m with my loved ones now. I’ve also noticed that those that give a shit about my opinion, even if they don’t agree don’t say “YOU”RE WRONG!”

To me, it’s not a matter of being too sensitive. It’s a shut down mechanism. And it’s one of the subtler ones used by spaths on a continuum.

Anyway…… both give me something to think about……….


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