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By | September 13, 2009 135 Comments

Nancy Garrido: alleged kidnapper and rapist

Last week I discussed Philip Garrido, a psychotic and psychopathic individual who allegedly with the help of his wife kidnapped Jaycee Dugard at age 11 and held her 18 years. This week I would like to discuss the some of the details of Nancy Garrido’s life that have been reported by reliable news sources.

The Details

Nancy Garrido is 54, her maiden name is Bocanegra. She was born born in Texas, the second child of a family of five or six children. She has been married to Phillip 28 years. According to the New York Times, “Gail Powell, a spokeswoman for the Nevada Department of Public Safety, said Nancy Bocanegra was visiting an incarcerated uncle when she met Mr. Garrido, a tall, lanky and deep-eyed sex offender who was serving a 50-year sentence for the 1976 rape and kidnapping of a casino worker from South Lake Tahoe, Calif.”

The couple married in the prison and did not live together until Phillip’s release 7 years later. Nancy never had children, but is reported to have been a caregiver. She cared for Phillip’s elderly mother and worked as a nurse’s aide.

Several people who knew Nancy described her as submissive, depressive and quiet. Others said she appeared kind and caring.
Nancy’s employer reportedly said this about her work with developmentally disabled adults, “The people she worked with really liked her.”

Questions

The same employer also questioned “How could it be that this other situation was happening at the same time? It’s impossible to understand.”

People are also asking why Nancy participated in this crime. They are questioning whether she was under “the spell” of her husband, and whether she was “brainwashed.”

My questions

I wonder why we allow sex offenders to marry in prison. He had a history at least one other arrest, “It seems likely that Ms. Garrido knew all too well of her new husband’s sexual history and proclivities. In addition to his rape and kidnapping conviction, Mr. Garrido had also been arrested in a 1972 rape of a 14-year-old girl in Antioch, Calif., the Bay Area suburb near where he had grown up and where he and Ms. Garrido would settle with his mother after his release from prison in 1988,” said the New York Times.

Is there any legal reason why sex offenders or other psychopathic felons should be allowed to marry while they are in custody? They can’t vote, why should they marry? I think we allow these offenders to marry because some still believe that “love” can rehabilitate them; that marriage makes it less likely they will reoffend. (Lawyers reading this please comment!)

I contend that this marriage facilitated his re-offense and that sociopaths often could not do what they do without the help of witting and unwitting accomplices. The best thing for society is to isolate these people. We are more likely to be suspicious of an offender who lives by himself. Marriage and family just give them the false facade of normalcy.

There is data showing that generally speaking marriage prevents re-arrest of felons. We don’t know if that applies to psychopathic sex offenders. We also don’t know if marriage protects against re-offense versus just re-arrest. My suspicion is that married psychopaths just get away with more.

Why would a woman marry such a man? Many serial killers have a following of women and other women have married offenders serving life sentences. It is noted that Nancy had an uncle in the same prison, and that is how she met Phillip. Perhaps the presence of other antisocial individuals in her life desensitized her to their dangerousness.

Many have questioned why Phillip was released after serving only one fifth of his sentence. I wonder if it had anything to do with this marriage and the fact that Phillip’s mother allowed the couple to live with her after his release.

All family members who render aid to psychopathic offenders have moral culpability to any subsequent crimes they commit. When you do something nice for a psychopath, a perverse reverse Karma is created. The psychopath will use the “nice” to perpetrate evil on someone else or even you. In this case, a kindness bestowed upon a psychopath will result in bad Karma for you.

The fact that sociopathy/psychopathy is a spectrum as opposed to an absolute category is confusing for people. In the same way, the spectrum that defines the spouses, family members, and associates of sociopaths/psychopaths is also confusing. Let’s be open to the real likelihood that Nancy is also psychopathic and selected Phillip for that reason.

What about the caretaking behavior? What about Nancy’s assertions that she loves and misses the victims? This week I came across another important statement regarding psychopathic individuals and love. It came from a book chapter written by three psychopathy experts:

“they (psychopaths) may also be prone to express intense affiliative impulses directly. Because such attractions are not based on empathy (for) or a mature appreciation of another person, these positive affectional links are often likely to be fleeting, tenuous, and based on illusory perceptions of others” (emphasis added).

To translate the difficult vocabulary, psychopaths do experience affection and intense impulses that feel like “love” to them. It is not all just a sham or a lie. That is why psychopaths are able to fool people. It is not that victims and family members are always so gullible that they fall for the lies. Sometimes the people in a psychopath’s life correctly read the “positive affectional links” and “intense affiliative impulses”.

What we all need to understand is that the presence of these impulses and feelings doesn’t tell us anything about a person since even psychopaths have these. What tells us most about Nancy’s inner world is the crimes she is alleged to have perpetrated.

Please if you are in the life of a psychopathic person, particularly an offender or sex offender consider carefully what I have said here.

Sources for this blog
LA Times
NY Times
The Clinical and Forensic Assessment of Psychopathy: A Practitioner’s Guide (Personality and Clinical Psychology Series) by Carl B. Gacono (Editor) Chapter 8


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“All family members who render aid to psychopathic offenders have moral culpability to any subsequent crimes they commit. When you do something nice for a psychopath, a perverse reverse Karma is created. The psychopath will use the “nice” to perpetrate evil on someone else or even you. In this case, a kindness bestowed upon a psychopath will result in bad Karma for you.”

Very powerful and truthful words, Donna. My life and my karma are much sweeter without the taint of a sociopath. I think the thoughts that marriage shields the perp are very true. I saw it in action. How could a married Christian man (such as my xs) do those things…he’s MARRIED?

I was thinking the other day about some “romantic comedies” and how the womanizing man-child becomes “fixed” and therefore a fabulous marriage partner. It’s a theme in so many books and movies-it’s pervasive. Oh how I HATE that “What Women Want” movie! (As an example and don’t get me started on the Twilight characters, ugh.) I’m not trying to go off topic- I think marriage is viewed as a salve when in reality a married jerk isn’t less of a jerk. That isn’t to say all married men are really jerks, just that married is irrelevant and sometimes even a cloak of respectability.

skylar

Thanks for the article Liane.
I feel like we, here at LF, had roles similar to Nancy’s because we all gave our P’s a veneer of legitamacy. But I hope that the moment I saw him hurt other people or an animal, it would have ended there. Or very soon after.
That’s why it’s so important to have various relationships and not allow the secrecy that the P’s thrive on. We need a perspective from outside the “cult of one” to clear our minds and show us reality.

breckgirl

I thoroughly agree – why allow predators to marry? It fools the people responsible for watching over them and making them toe the line afterward as well… I am sure Nancy being present is one of the reasons the officer sent to check years earlier did not do a more thorough examination. Heartbreaking.

As for Nancy – I vote psychopath – to support his victimization of Jaycee is beyond revolting – I bet she felt special getting to live IN THE HOUSE instead of in a tent outside with infants. It is nauseating.

And – YES skylar – I unwittingly was a beard of respectability and after the fact friends of his came to me and said the reason no one warned me is they all hoped that he would change – he would step up and begin to act right because he had me and how could he want to lose you???? And while I never allowed him to physically harm others – I did help him begin a lawsuit – get him an attorney and so forth and deal with the details of it for quite some time – something that ultimately caused financial harm to his brother

– when I realized what was happening I warned the brother but he was so arrogant himself he did not believe it would swing around and bite him in the rear as it did – ultimately he was angry at me but I do not feel any guilt as I did give him enough warning and information about it all to be able to extricate himself with no harm done and he chose to ignore me and castigate me for having been involved with his brother.

Now the prices he paid for it are according to him – my fault – so I wonder if the apples did not fall far from the tree…?

A cousin told me that that entire branch of the family tree always stuck their head in the sand about problems and also always blamed others for their problems – sounds to me like magical thinking / lack of concern for consequences – a sense of their ability to “get out of it” via manipulation… and then assigning blame – a family steeped in an odd narcissism maybe?

The friend – they never understood – they don’t to this day – and yes the friends, and not the family, are trying to save his house so he has a place to go after jail – 4 blocks from me. They know he has threatened my life – why do they do this – because they feel like they will be bad people if they don’t do something for him – that seeing him possibly homeless (they certainly do not want him in their homes!) will be so difficult emotionally and guilt inducing –

I wonder, if he does harm me or my children how they will feel?

I hope Nancy Garrido gets as long a sentence as his – life and not a minute less. And while it is rotten to think it – knowing they have harmed children I am sure the population in prison will take care of them properly.

UGH – for the children Jaycee bore – to know – now that they are in the world and free – to know what it is that created their very being – one can only hope that with therapy and Jaycee’s family they can all heal and not live emotionally tortured lives. So many prayers for them.

neveragain

Excellent post. I really find that thinking of sociopathy/psychopathy as a spectrum makes everything “fit” better.

I also TOTALLY agree “psychopaths do experience affection and intense impulses that feel like “love” to them. It is not all just a sham or a lie. That is why psychopaths are able to fool people. It is not that victims and family members are always so gullible that they fall for the lies. Sometimes the people in a psychopath’s life correctly read the “positive affectional links” and “intense affiliative impulses”.

One weekend the very P-ish man I was involved with was on a real narc high. He had done very well in a bicycle race, and he managed to sexually assault me. And he got to show off his birding skills, wine selection skills, etc. He said it was one of the most fun weekends of his life. It was the same weekend where he professed he wished he had married me, that he was going to tell his best friend about me, and after he said that he was trying to breath my molecules left in the air when we were apart, etc. I really think at that moment he “loved” me to the extent that he is capable of loving anyone….which is in a very shallow, context related manner, which is extremely fleeting, and often very contrary to their actions at the moment! (Sexually assaulting someone you love??? How does that work???))

I took very specific steps to warn others about him, which I don’t want to write of here, but I agree it is part of our moral duty to try to warn others, or at the very least, not be part of their facade.

Ox Drover

This is a subject on which I speak with a great amount of personal experience as most of you already know.

My psychopathic son is in prison for murder. One of the things that is considered by parole boards is OUTSIDE SUPPORT FOR AN OFFENDER. Does he or she have a place to go? Do they have supportive family members.

Sex offenders FREQUENTLY REOFFEND which is well known. There are some however in the “system” that seem to think if a sex offender is married (and therefore presumably “getting sex”) that they would be less likely to reoffend. POPPY COCK! Submissive and willing sex is NOT what a rapist wants, so being married and having access to a willing sexual partner does NOT make the sex offender less likely to offend.

According to Dr. Anna Salter, Ph.D, one of the recognizable experts on sex offenses world wild, and pedophilia in particular, she states that ALL sex offenders re0offend and that they have NO REMORSE and NO GUILT. Wait, a minute? Does that mean ALL sex offenders are PSYCHOPATHS? I think it means exactly that! Therefore, no amount of prison time (except for natural life) will keep these people from reoffending.

Liane is right, even Jeff Dahmer had 14 women at the time of his death that he was corresponding with and claiming exclusive and undying love for each one. (the letters were found in his cell after his death.)

I was able to keep my “Trojan Horse Psychopath” from getting parole the first time he came up because I worked hard to find a way. The parole lboard had a “plan” to send him to a half way house. Which, it just so happens is prohibited to send a sex offender to a half way house in Arkansas by Act 679. They had approved it anyway, thinking no one would cause a STINK about it.

Of course, you know me, and I did cause a STINK and his parole did not happen. However, he got “in good” with some Christians who worked in the prison and they found him a place to stay so 5 months later, his parole was approved.

This is a man who has THREE felony convictions for molestation of children ages 8, 11 and 14, as well as assault convictions, who has violated EVERY parole he was let out on and reincarcerated for that violation…..yet, the system was ANXIOUS to get this man back on teh street. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?

If I understand correctly, Giarrdo had SEVERAL convictions and incarcerations and a sentence of FIFTY YEARS for one, but served only a tiny fraction of either of those sentences.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH OUR “JUSTICE” SYSTEM? Or should I say IN-JUSTICE system that will turn a PROVEN VIOLENT offender out into society where he can reoffend again and again and again?

Liane, apparently he was allowed to “marry” in prison because convicts have rights, apparently unlike the victims and potential victims.

Why would his wife marry under such conditions, or pick such a man to marry? I think it speaks to her “normalizing” of criminal behavior in her world, (her uncle being in prison and her visiting him) and I have no doubt that HE LIED about what his charges were or his guilt of those charges. The trojan horse psychopath lied to my egg donor, my P-son lied to her as well. Even when I had PROOF that the TH-P was lying to her, she refused to believe the documentary proof and accused me of “manufacturing it” on my computer—complete with mug shot. Her “proof” was “he TOLD ME SO”—-

Obviously the woman was a programmed “care giver” which is not uncommon in this level in society where women are valued only for their ability to “provide comfort” to their men by working and bringing home the money, sex on demand, and household care, while the men are free to engage in whatever outside pleasures they wish to. A woman in this culture is “nothing” without a man, she is scorned as “worthless” because no one wants her. As a “married woman” even to such a thing as Girrado, she has a status among her women friends, and if her husband is in prison and she “waits” for him, she proves her “worth” to him as being loyal (to a fault). During the time he is prison, just like with any long distance relationship, she has the VISION of the wonderful FUTURE when he gets out and they have a wonderful life together. A FANTASY world which is built up in her mind during the time of his incarceration, one that takes on a life of its own.

In the meantime, he has someone to send him commissary money for treats and extra food, while he is in prison. He can write her letters and get visits from her which help him pass the boring days and years. In the book, “The Felon” which is a researched study of the FANTASY that the felons build up of what their life will be like when they get back “outside” the felon himself builds up a FANTASY world of how wonderful it will be when he gets out, how he will have material status cars, clothes, and women….of course neither of these fantasies comes true….in his case, maybe it did come true with the kidnapping of the child and her enslavement for 18 years.

My P-convict-son’s fantasies were apparent in his letters to the Trojan Horse psychopath when he talked about how things would be with him back on the outside and them living here on the farm without me to check their desires for what they felt was unlimited money and leisure time to “sit on the back porch and drink tea” will looking out over the “spread.”

I seemed, apparently, the only fly in their ointment! Well, and my other sons, but they could either be managed or elimiinated, no big deal either way. Of course my P-son made it clear that after I was gone the TH-P would have to learn how to manage things financially (with my mother’s money) but that when he came home (on parole) HE would be the captain of the ship! Ah, fantasy of paradise on earth!

I sincerely doubt, however, that with the three VIOLENT pasychopaths in one “pile” here on the farm that it would have been “happily” ever after! I also predict that my son would have been the survivor, but probably he would have gone back to prison as he has seldom committed a felony he didn’t get convicted for.

I totally agree with Liane that anyone who “nurtures” and “supports” these people is equally guilty of the crimes they commit. At the same time, I have some empathy for this monster’s wife, she was “programmed” from birth to be sumissive to males in her environment. “Trauma bonded” if you will.

Should she be pitied or should she go to prison as well as a kidnapper? The way our “in-justice system” works, though, I imagine she will “cut a deal” and testify against her husband and receive a lesser sentence than he does. Is that what should happen? I’m not sure, part of me feels pity for the woman, and part of me says, “she was a willing participant”—but in any case, the damage done to the VICTIMS (including the children) is too horrific to even imagine. The cry of the Nazi underlings that “I was just following orders” sounds pretty hollow.

Ox Drover

Denial isa wonderful salve to the feelings of family and friends who support these violent people….I used it myself for many years…in the end, however, the TRUTH comes out if we will only see it, unfortunately too many times, it comes out like it did with Dr. Amy Castillo’s dead children after her husband killed them when the Judge gave him unsupervised visitation AFTER he had threatened to kill them.

skylar

Oxy, your story about your P son and the Trojan horse fascinates me because I have my own trojan who want’s my P-parents home and money. I don’t have it completely understood as to all the details and sequence of events.
Who did your P son kill which sent him to jail?
The trojan had an affair with your DIL and together they tried to kill your son.
When did the trojan “move” on your eggdonor?
I’m still confused as to that relationship.

I agree that Nancy should pay for her indifference to Jaycee’s suffering. Her indifference is what I don’t understand. Maybe it’s the slippery slope scenario. Maybe he got her to do some small evil deeds first and then some more until it finally seemed normal to do horrible evil deeds.

I don’t understand why my P didn’t do that to me. I watched him do it to others. twisting them into hating for no reason. I thank God that he didn’t because I cannot say what would have happened. I know that I’m very empathetic to others, but can that be unlearned a little bit at a time?

Or did he want to keep me “pure” so that he could watch this “innocent” soul commit suicide and thereby snatching the prize away from God?

PInow

Skylar, your comments last night got me all wound up with my own pity party. I am so angry with myself for feeling the way I do today, and – after reading this blog, I wondered what IS love. You see, my X wanted me so bad, there was not a question about it: he was “in Love”. And in the process he lied and manipulated to such a terrific degree, that it seems not humanly possible to even “want someone and “love” them” and course so much of dissonance in their life. “whatever works” I guess was the justification in his sick mind. Intense impulses and positive affectionate links turned out to be nothing more than a toddler temper tantrum – getting his toy prize at whatever cost. He is doing the same now with our child. I am sick of this sick being.

skylar

PInow,
What did I say?

I want to clear the air about something right now:
I have been pretty much isolated for the past 25 years and I might have a warped personality because of it. It is possible that I say things to offend people and don’t realize that I’m being offensive. So many people in my life are P’s.

Since the age of 17 I have been under the P’s hypnotic spell and pretty much isolated from friends and family. During those years HE has been the main influence on the growth of my personality. I have not had a job in over 20 years. So if you see me being abrasive or inconsiderate, I apologize in advance. I don’t mean to be.

PInow

It’s nothing you said. Not at all. I just read about you missing yours and Started missing mine. They all sound so similar, we may be missing the same characteristics or personality traits (funny how that one came out, ha?). Anyway, I was responding more to this blog. I found nothing Genuine about my X, so whatever attractions he had are probably like those of kids to shiny objects. Nothing you said: I was sad with you and carried it into my own personal dark place that I try to keep locked up. Sorry if my message was not clear earlier: I still cry at night,

skylar

Oh,PInow,
Ok, I’m sorry U are sad. I’m working hard at learning how to make it better. There has to be a way.
He took so many years from me. I’m wondering if my ability to relate to people has been damaged too. I can’t help wondering what the long term effects on my personality are going to be.
God, this is such hard work, He must have a reason for us to FEEL this sadness. We have to keep trying to make sense of it. I know God loves us, why would He choose us for this cross to bear?
Are we being big babies? After all, we did not die, we are not living in refuge camps or prisons. We are hurt emotionally but how bad is that compared to the suffering of people in North Korea? Africa?
Here’s a song that may help you. a bit.
http://video.canadiancontent.net/71350455-alanis-morissette-thank-you.html

PInow

Thank you for sharing the song. I too know, what it’s like to feel naked in public, I think many of us do….
Funny you should say this about God: it was just the point I’ve made to someone few hours ago. God certainly did not forget us, if he/ she is giving us such a harsh lesson…

I don’t know that we can compare our pain to that of refugees in camps. They are together, their enemy is easy to identify and therefore hide from. They don’t know the ultimate emotional betrayal that we’ve gone through (unless of course, they do, because of their personal circumstance).

I feel like I am in a war zone. I have support from those who love me and whom I love, but at the end, I alone must face the battles. It is also like grieving death of a loved one. Except, the loved one goes on living like a clone of self, but I am forced to realize that he never existed. Maybe, going to Africa or volunteering with someone who is in pain will help me not feel so alone. One must have good footing though to give to others, and I have lost that footing, having been trampled on by the circumstances that are now beyond my control.

Some days I go away from LF, try to pretend that life can go on as before. I get tired of P related subjects and want to move on. But, X makes sure to keep me on a leash from my desire to “put it behind me” and so I return, to read more, to suffer more, to be understood or at least to share. I am luckier than most, his relatives told me, that I can rely on my professional training and knowledge and work experience to understand what is going on. Can’t imagine not having this knowledge and having to go through this nightmare. Definitely, given a choice, would have opted for the refugee camps.

skylar

Pinow,
I can read between the lines. no matter what the words say, it boils down to one thing: you are really sensitive, just like me. The perfect N-supply.
NO, you would not have opted for the refugee camps.
I will share something with you though I don’t yet have permission to quote it yet:
Be the kind of woman that, each day, when your feet hit the floor, the devil says, “CRAP, she’s up.”

Make that your goal.

Look, the internet is the reason you and I can communicate, if that isn’t a miracle of God, I don’t know what is. It has saved my life and it will change the world more than it has already. Use it.

breckgirl

skylar –
I just was thinking that recently – Thank God for the internet and the information available. I don’t know how I would have found not only the information but then to have people who get it post on the message board.

It has been a godsend….

PInow – I hope you have a better week. I am sorry you are in such pain today. I have the luxury right now if being 3,000 miles away from some of the N’s in my life and the other one is locked up right now. I am having a period of peace and I am enjoying every bit of it. I pray you get some soon. It helps with the healing tremendously.

witsend

This story seems yet to really unfold….I think there is alot more to it than what meets the eye.

Of course the first mistake as far as justice is concerned is that he didn’t serve his time and was let out of prison early.
If in fact this was allowed because it is “presumed” that a sex offender will not recommit a crime because he is married is ridiculous. And proves how BADLY our laws need to change.

However that is one of the things that leads to many questions as of Nancys involvement in this entire situation. From the start to the finish…..Somehow, without more in depth information about this whole thing of how she happened to marry this man while incarcerated….It almost seems like she could also be a victim.

For all we know this might have been why she was taken to the jail to visit her “uncle” to begin with. For the intent purpose for her to marry this man. Her family could have arranged this ahead of time.

If this guy is as sick as he appears to be, God only knows what he did to her?

I am certainly not saying that if she was a willing participant in this crime that she shouldn’t be punished to the FULL exent of the law.

However it would be helpful to have more information on this woman and her life with Phillip Garrido. Something just doesn’t seem right? If she was tortured and “brain washed” by this man for years, then she is yet another of “his” victims as well.

PInow

Thank you, friends, for your support. When I am ready, I will happily share what is going on with me and what my X is coming up with on a regular basis. I too agree with Witsend about the Garrido’s wife. My X was a drug to me, totally derailed me from reality and I enjoyed it thoroughly. (and paid dearly). She could have fallen to be Gerrido’s victim just as easily. I am not so quick to come to any conclusions on any of this; it sounds like the man is so delusional that perhaps anything else takes the back seat in his dysfunction.

witsend

PInow,

I am sorry to hear that you are in pain. I do not know your whole story. I believe that you mentioned that you have a child and he is doing the same thing to your child.

From my perspective it is so much harder to heal and continue the journey of recovery when you can’t go complete N/C with the toxic individual. And of course if you have a child together this is almost impossible. It seems whatever small “access” they might have into your life they will use that to hurt you further. And what better way to hurt someone then through their own children? Like rubbing salt into an already open wound…..

I don’t have much to offer as far as what you might do in your situation….The “disordered” person in my life is my son….But like you I can’t go N/C and I understand you feeling like you are living in a nightmare. I feel that as well.
And I also understand you feeling alone in your pain even though you do have people around you that love you.

Sometimes the hardest things we have to do in life…We do alone. Maybe this is how we grow emotionally and spiritually?

I don’t know what your professional training or knowledge is that you refered to but if it helps in your recovery USE it!

Twice Betrayed

Let’s all remember when we miss those ‘certain personality traits’ of the P….we are missing an illusion….it’s not real. Most of the time it’s our personality traits being reflected back to us….KACHING!

Ox Drover

Skylar,

I have 3 sons, the middle P-one is in prison for murdering a girl he was involved with in illegal activities in 1991. She “ratted” him out to the cops, so he killed her.

My oldest son C was married to a P, who became involved with the TH-P, who was sent by my P-son to “infiltrate” our family as a “friend” by renting a house from me and being really “nice to us”—he moved in as a live-in caregiver with my elderly mother, started an affair with the P-DIL, and was trying to find an opportunity to kill me (due to some inheritence issues that would have benefited my P-son if I died BEFORE my elderly mother.) Since I got wind of what was going on (a friend found him on a sex offender web site) and couldn’t convince my egg donor that he was even a criminal, much less a pedophile, so took off and secretly moved into hiding until my DIL (now X) and he were arrested for changing their plans and stealing money from my egg donor AND trying to kill my son C. They wouldn’t have “gained” anything by the murder except I fully believe she hated my son so much SHE was the one who wanted him dead, not the BF.

In any case, thank GOD that they were not successful, but my egg donor continues to send money to my P-son and “disbelieve” he was involved, even though I HAVE TONS OF LETTERS SHOWING HE WAS INVOLVED AND GIVING THE TH-P DIRECTIONS ON HOW TO “MANAGE” US. I am NC with my egg donor for lying to me and for sending him money, and breaking other promises etc. My two other sons are also NC with her too. Sorry, I know it is a long, convoluted and confusing story. That all took place only a few months after my husband was killed in a small plane crash, and my beloved step father died of cancer after 18 months of me caring for him, so I got the “TRIPLE whammy” of stress during all that time. I am doing very well now, especially compared to what was going on then, so am pretty well over my chaos and pity party and working on living a good life day by day with my two wonderful sons. It’s been a long, difficult and hard road but I am stronger each day and each step I take in healing myself. It is now about ME—not them. They are the losers. TOWANDA!!!

skylar

Thanks for taking the time to explain your situation. I find it incredible that they can cooperate with each other as much as they do. I mean, how is it that your son never knew he had a p-wife? Did the trojan-p bring it out of her? was her p-ness dormant before?

Oh goodie, another case of “just not gettin’ it.” Now they ordaining cloaks of respectability.
http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=11122881

skylar

http://saferelationshipsmagazine.com/community-support-groups-2

Wow, this column really nails all the issues right on the head. if you are new to LF or confused about your relationship, read this link.

skylar

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_091409WAB-mother-son-murder-plot-TP.17dda0c6b.html

This woman was going to kill her abusive husband but her son turned her in first. Thank God.

Quote from King5News:
“Detectives say the mother admitted to planning the murder after a “very hurtful statement” by her husband. The document says she made the chilling statement to them that “living in prison for the rest of her life was better than the prison she lived in with her abusive husband. ”

The student allegedly gave details about how his mother planned to drug his father and then stab him to death with a knife.
She allegedly told detectives she planned to commit the murder, call her children with the news then call 911 to surrender. ”

When my xP belatedly remembered our 25th anniversary (a month late), he asked, “isn’t there something you’re supposed to get after 25 years?”
I answered, “Parole?”
The look on his face was frightening.
I think this was the final narcissistic injury that unraveled his mask. My sarcasm knows no bounds.

Twice Betrayed

skylar: I used to say killers got parole before the number of years I served. Good to see others say these things too. 😉

“They see how situations trigger an emotion, and they see that this emotion causes us to act in very specific ways. And they use us as pawns in their games of power. Luckily, if we can learn to differentiate between real emotion and manipulated emotion—to become free from those parts of ourselves which control us—we can then become free from the rule of those external tyrants which control us. We can cease to be pawns in someone else’s game.”

I often said my PX was like an accomplished chess player….he was always at least several moves ahead of the play. But, after years of being with him and seeing him as he is….I can predict his moves now as well as he can play them. I could very well the last year of our marriage [all the while I was socking that money away to leave on] and he absolutely hated it….it drove him crazy. Many times I’ve seen him just drop the con and the anger and quit. Course he’d just think and try to come back with another ploy, but after you wise up….you will see the next move. They are all alike. in some ways.,.they do the same things and they have a certain number of cons depending on the P….they are actually pretty predictable once you see thru the mask. Isn’t that ironic?

skylar

Yeah TB, it is ironic.
Here’s even more irony: they believe that they are the most unique individual that ever lived, but they are all cookie cutter images of each other. The games might vary here and there, but when we compare notes, here at LF, its like reading a page from the same playbook.

Their limited emotions don’t allow them to live truly creative lives. They are always looking to con, manipulate, lie and decieve so they never produce anything real.

I can’t remember what the situation was but I anticipated his choice and later he asked me how I knew what he would do. Without even thinking, I said, “I know you always pick the easiest path.”

Twice Betrayed

skylar: True, true, true!!!!

breckgirl

skylar – I love it – “after 25 years – parole”

And yes, the playbook is the same – once you see what gets them you can play with them and they have no clue half the time – watching my ex when I caught on to his games and stopped being a foil for his games – his shock and kind of like a rat that thinks he knows the way to the cheese and it has been moved – he kept running back through his various routines trying to see which one might work again – and once in awhile he would hook me but never for more than 15 minutes and then it would ht me – aha – he is playing me again… I would have to laugh at my malignant hope and his ability to arouse it.

Seeing over time that he was incapable of growth or change, that is what let me cut myself loose. I just finally one day saw it all writ large – this will never change for the better – he doesn’t want it to – and I was done – in one moment. It still hurt after that but I was done. It was a pivotal moment over something so small.

Yay for me – I’m free!!!!

peggywhoever

The experience with my Sociopath has be convinced, that in at least his case, there was absolutely no love whatsoever, there was only great acting. In fact, he stated he always wanted to be an actor, and he was certainly the best actor I have seen and every day was a stage for him.

So I would strongly disagree with the statement, ““psychopaths do experience affection and intense impulses that feel like “love” to them. It is not all just a sham or a lie.

I believe Sociopaths are entirely incapable of love or human emotions (other than pity for themselves). The only way they feel or exhibit affection is in the desire to attain sex.

Peggy

luv716

What about sociopaths that has children, I’ve seen mine display so much love for his children that made me think this such a wonderful man. But my daughter brought it to may attention she said didn’t you think something was wrong this man he got 5 kids and not with any of the baby moma’s. This is from the mouth of a sixteen year old. It make me wonder are they capable of loving there children. He seem like he loved to be needed, almost like he had to be incontrol of everyone life.

peggywhoever

luv716:

IMHO (in my humble opinion) it is acting with the children. Sociopaths are all about power/control, money, and sex. A fourth component that is very important for them is appearances. They always want to “look” good, i.e., the mask of goodness. They are incapable of love, in any shape or form, other than self-love. Yes, there is definitely something very wrong with them!

Peggy

blueskies

Luv716 and Peggy,

I think its down to really understanding what’s going on in front of you.

The S/P I knew made himself out (and still does) as a devoted father (its a great hook for women; how many of us coo at a man with a baby) but his behaviour with the kids just didnt ‘feel’ right, it didnt add up to his professions of love and devotion to them (his weird sexual behaviour,cheating, porn addiction didnt add up with his ‘family man’ facade either but hey..;). Even when he was doing ‘fun’ things with them, it didnt feel natural, it felt like he had read somewhere that this is what you ‘do’ to appear like a doting dad, all very controlled, and usually filmed so he could put ’em up on his web sites to make him look good… then after an hour or so he couldnt hide his irritation with them…didnt film that though lol!

It IS acting. Their children are ‘tools’ just like everything else.

And you know, I SAW it and felt it. A few months ago I might have said ‘and I ignored it’ … but it DID register…I did question it, I just didnt know what it was or what it meant at the time.

If I ever feel like someone is being ‘unnatural’ with their kids to create an impression again…even if its just an aquaintence, I will make my excuses and get the hell out of the situation. BIG RED FLAG.

applehillbilly

Wow! It’s very scary to hear people talk about getting caught up in a sociopath’s games.

It’s obvious that Nancy sought out Garrido and just didn’t fall for his “games” but wanted a partner that matched her own twisted view of the world.

There was no reason for her to get out of the situation. She is just as guilty as him, just as sick and just as evil…just as much a sociopath.

That Garrido controlled Nancy is like saying Hitler controlled Goebbels – They both had equal parts but different roles. The only victums were the children.

Sure, msome people get sucked into relationships with sociopaths but if they have just a little humanity in them the recognize it and oppose it.

I use the Hitler analogy because there was an equally sick and evil mindset. But not everyone joined the SS. Some risked death than take part either actively or passively.

Nancy sought out someone who fit the bill for her and found him. But somehow I’ll bet she gets a lesser sentence playing the role of victim.

People on this post talk about “their” sociopath and how they were manipulated but they forget this blog is not about Philip Garrido but Nancy. She was not manipulated in any manner she didn’t want to be. It took two to pull this off and her role was just as important and equal as his…for many, many years.

Ox Drover

Dear Applehillbilly,

You have a great point!

At the same time, playing devil’s advocate—WHY WOULD ANY WOMAN WANT A CONVICT? What made her so desperate for a man that she was attracted to a man she knew was a criminal?

Look at all the women who write “fan” mail to various serial killers and “fall in love” with them over the course of years of writing to these “poor innocent men” on death row? WHY!!!!!

Nancy was there to visit her uncle when she met her husband, so we know she came from a family in which criminal behavior and incarceration didn’t “invalidate” a person as a member of the family. A family or a woman loyally waiting for X to get out of prison was obviously the kind of background she came from, and her later years prove that she fell into the “role” completely with Philip.

Is she also a victim? Of her family background? Of her husband? Of society? of her genetics? of Stockholm syndrome? Of all of the above? OR is she by background and genetics “as bad as her husband?” Just as guilty of kidnapping?

Is Philip a “victim” as well of all of the above mentioned things? Should he NOT be punished because he was “raised that way?” Should she NOT be punished because she was raised that way?

How about a woman who kills her abuser? Is she guilty? or is she a victim also? Or both, victim and guilty?

Solomon himself I don’t think could solve these questions of what is going on in a man/woman’s mind or what is ALWAYS “justice” and who “deserves” “mercy” and “compassion” from the law.

kim frederick

Ox Drover, I tend to agree with you. Are you familiar with the Stanley Millgram experiment having to do with obedience to authority? Very, very interesting, but also a little scary. This experiment suggests that “most” people will be obedient to an authority figure even if it involves inflicting pain on others: even if they are extremely uncomfortable doing so.

The question here is if this was the case with Nancy, and if so, what predetermined this mind set? Also, the other night I stumbled upon a program about ancient machines of torture.

Human history is full of the spectacle of torture, complete with cheering masses. How can we explain that? Have we evolved away from this sort of thing, or do humans as a species, somehow need this sort of punishment in order to feel that justice has been served. Does it also function to assuage our own guilt, or perhaps to dissuade us from participating in the same sort of crime? I think there’s the potential for evil in all of us, although, I think in some it is more pronounced, and I think those that start life out as
“handicapped,” so to speak, are more likely to exhibit evil behavior.

I know all this is probably not a particularly popular opinion, and maybe it is too phylosophical for this forum, but it’s food for thought. It doesn’t mean the Nancy, and Philips’ shouldn’t
be held accountable for their dispicable deeds.

I guess I’m just wishing there was a cure for it!!!

kim frederick

Oh please, let me explain what I meant by “handicapped”. I meant those people who come from very dysfunctional backgrounds, as well as those who are genetically predisposed. And I’m pretty sure even that is an over-generalization. I’m not sure how to word what I mean. Any comments?

Ox Drover

This discussion gets more into the realm of philosophy I think in some ways, but our philosophies are how we view the world, how we think it should be run….so I think it is germaine to the subject.

What was Hitler’s “philosophy?” Well, of course we all pretty well know that. That was how he “ran” the country, consistently with that philosophy. He convinced at least some if not most of the German people that this philosophy was “right” and “good” and for the “good of the country.”

Of course, after the war when the “war trials” were going on many people who had done horrible things to others used the “excuse of” “I was JUST FOLLOWING ORDERS” as a way to excuse themselves from the blame and responsibility for what they had done.

What would have happened to them if they had REFUSED to follow those orders?

Were they really to “blame” for following orders to do bad things, or were they “guilty” and “responsible” for the acts they committed?

The war courts seemed to think that they WERE responsible for what they did, even following orders.

Sometimes in our own armies, men have been prosecuted for their ACTS when they were “following” orders as well.

War is “Not a nice thing” and Civilians and others die in war.

A soldier, by definition, has no choice but to ‘follow orders” or suffer consequences, even death, for failure to follow those orders.

How about the Jewish people in the camps who became “trustee” guards and persecutors of their own people in order to try to survive themselves? Were they guilty of crimes? At what point does the decision to SURVIVE become where one must be punished for trying to survive?

Dr. Viktor Frankl’s wonderful book, “Man’s Search for meaning” written after his years in a nazi concentration camp in which he lost everything EXCEPT his life and his compassion for his fellow men, is a wonderful book to consider reading to help work through some of these questions. I don’t have the “answers” after reading this book, but it at least lets me think about several of the different views.

I think (in theory at least) we can have COMPASSION for the monsters of psychopathic thinking who do such horrible things, even as we pull the switch that executes them. If that makes any sense at all.

Of course it is also natural for us (humans) to feel a need for “revenge” against people who have done such horrible things.

Since the dawn of humanity the TORTURE of “enemies” or “criminals” has been the usual way of executions and punishment, with the “public” viewing these executions and torture as “right” and “just”—-but some of us (Humans) have decided that public torture (or even private torture) is not “good”—others still view “torture” at least in some times and places as “justified” to get information for “the greater good” of a war or crime investigation.

If a criminal is holding a child, let’s say, in a sealed box where they have a limited amount of time to breathe, is it justified to save the child’s life to torture the psychopathic criminal who did this in order to get them to reveal the place the child is held and save the child’s life? Or should we call an attorney for the criminal and give him time to sit there and let the child smother to death? Which is the greater “good” for society? Abiding by the rule of law, or the child’s death?

Even with at least an attempt at abiding by the rule of law, suffering is created when psychopaths are allowed to go free because of “technical” problems with their arrests, with evidence, etc., innocent people are “convicted”—even if this is only 1%, with as many people as we have in prison in the US this is a huge number. Also, because of thsi same thing, when violent and guilty people go free or are released quickly, like Phillip, more people die, are victimized and tortured, like this little girl.

I DO wish I had an answer to all the evils of our race and our “justice” system, but I can only very sadly hang my head and say, I don’t expect perfect justice, or even in most cases ADEQUATE justice and I am glad I am not on the jury or the bench that has to make these decisions, but I wish the ones who will be on the bench and in the jury box were better educated about psychopaths.” Peace, and God bless us all.

witsend

I really am not sure that there is enough information yet known about how Nancy ended up with this man….Or if there ever will be.

On the “surface” it might appear that she is a guilty and evil as he himself is…And that might just be how the public and the press choose to believe it.

It might also be the truth of the matter…That she is as sick as he is. And as guilty as he is.

However he appears to be so EVIL and so delusional and so very ,very sick….It really makes me wonder if she wasn’t herself, from the start his victim. Maybe we will never know. If she was a victim within her own family structure and somehow persuaded/forced into marring this man….

There are many cases where a victim of really horrific abuse are also victims of mind control or brain washed to the point where they really are not making their “own” choices. They have lost their “free will” to make these choices. And do what they are “told”.

Victims of such excessive abuse also go into intense survival mode. That would include doing things that they are ordered to do that are VERY WRONG, to survive.

And this seems like it could also be possible in this particular case.

Remember the case of the “Boy called it” in California? At the time it was the worst case of child abuse ever recorded.
His siblings never showed compasion or empathy for him during the many years of his extreame abuse at the hands of his mother. His siblings never, ever did anything to help their brother because frankly they didn’t want to be the next target. There was a form of “mind control” and “fear” extended throughout the entire family. Even though these children apeared to be treated well compared to their brother they also were drawn into the severe disfunction of the family structure. And played a role in it.

kim frederick

Dear Oxy, I’m glad you understood my post. We as the human race have been known to promote our individual agenda’s by cying evil. One nation calls another nation evil, simply because they have opposing interests. In some ways evil is relative.

I liked what you said about compassion. It is hard to be compassionate when we deal with monsters, and maybe it’s not really our job anyway. But I don’t want to lose sight of goodness, and I don’t want to use my victimization as an excuse to promote self justified evil. Not an easy thing when you’ve been very hurt, and feel very angry.

Yes. God Bless Us All!!!

Oh, and excellant work of fiction concerning some of these questions is “The Reader,” if any one is interested.

Ox Drover

Thanks, Witsend for mentioning “the boy called it”—i read a book he wrote later, that was heart-rending, though it has been so long ago I have forgotten so many of the details.

Your points are well made–

skylar

Here, in bold type, is the latest email from my XP. Tell me what you all think:
A bright burning campfire is a good analogy describing what was my love.
Occasionally difficulty in life would threaten the flames as if a small amount of water was poured over the fire, not enough to put it out only enough to reduce the flame. Given time the water would evaporate and the flame would burn bright again. My love was a strong fire, I would have never left you, I would have given my life for yours without hesitation. Then almost without warning in the middle of the most difficult time in our lives you decided to drowned the flames that burned
for you.
Your first attempt to put out the flame was while I struggle to
find money for our desperate situation. You tortured me when I couldn’t reach you.
I was so worried about you, because you were alone drinking and taking pills every night. I was so exhausted from lack of sleep It was impossible for me to focus on my work and just when I thought we had reached and understanding it
happened again, but my flame still burned.
Your second attempt to put out the flame happened when I arived home and you were gone. I can’t describe the feelings I felt, it took my breath away. It was a mixture of fear, profound sadness and loneliness. The fear I felt was for your
safety. I didn’t know where you were and you wouldn’t answer the phone.
Loneliness I always feel when I’m gone away from home but now even though I was home the loneliness was 100 times worse. I felt abandoned how could someone who loved you do this, this assault on the flame of love left only a small fire still burning.
Your third attempt to put out the flame happened when I realized the cat’s were gone. I love them so much and in my sorrow of you leaving me I now needed them more than ever. You must of know how hard this would be on me, only someone who hates could possibly be so cruel so heartless.

At this time my pain was so great I couldn’t see that you had put the flame of love out and all that remained was glowing embers.

Your fourth attempt to vanquished the remaining embers happened when I attempted to reach you through your family. I have always been kind and considerate to your brother after all he is family. And now a crisis in my life requires me to seek help from my extended family.

When I went to your parents house to find out if you were ok your brother told me to leave immediately or he would call the police. I said don’t do that I only want to know if she is okay, he replied I am calling the police now, so I left. Is the word sadness good enough to describe how I felt, even now uncontrollable tears stream from my eyes as I write this. My brothers would have never treated you
this way. The embers that were once at the base of a great fire of love now barely glow.
Your fifth attempt to finish what you started, this personal crusade of yours to eradicate all that is left, was truly evil. Even though I was buried in this emotional chamber I tried to hold it together. I forced myself to continue looking for work which led me even farther from you. At this time I couldn’t stop thinking about you, apparently neither could the water board. That is when the neighbor called the sheriff who called me. Only I was out of cell range. So the heartless and insensitive Sheriff left a message, it went like this. This is sheriff so and so of the Island County police I need to talk to you in regards of skylar. When I got the message I lost control of my car, I almost crashed how much more can I take. But your apathy toward these responsibilities wasn’t done yet. When I arrived home I had you on the phone when no less than 13 armed police with their M-16’s loaded and aimed at me. They were on the very edge of killing me. You know
how dangerous these people are. You have seen over and over again where they kill an innocent person. These police were in the forest there were no witnesses they could have killed me and got away with it. I ask you to talk to them and stop this, that’s when you said no I don’t think so and hung up the phone.

There is no more glow in the embers of my fire now only warmth.
Your sixth attempt was now closer than ever before at destroying the last remnant of warmth. I received a phone call from Terry he said that you had called and told him how you are feeling better now that you had moved out.

He told me how you tried to leave him with the impression that I was putting stuff in your food and making you sick. How do I express to you the absolute hurt I feel from this. How you could think that I could ever do something like that, how far you’ve gone down the road of evil. On that same day you stopped by Harry’s house and tried to convince him that he was only my friend because he was stupid. The warmth is almost gone now but it was this insanity that prompted me to make one more desperate attempt to save our lives together.
Your seventh and last attack on the fire of love.
I went to your parents house and waited till I saw your mother outside. I wanted to ask her to help me after all she’s my mother to. I said to her G—— I need to talk to you I need your help I wanted to tell her about the campfire of love that is barely warm and when it’s cold it’s all gone. I wanted to say how dangerously close to the end
we were. She looked at me and said you crazy I’m going to call the police.

How could she be so cold to me, I have always been good to them and I have always had their best interest in my heart. Where is the woman who claims to be close to God. It absolutely devastated me, her abandonment and unwillingness to hear me. My mother would never abandoned you she would always be attentive and genuinely concerned,and my father if he were alive would see you as his own daughter regardless of our troubled relationship.

In my bewilderment I try to reason out how you could have done this. You must have had and oasis, a place of comfort and security as you decimated me. There is no doubt you used alcohol and drugs to fortify your delusions,while having the support of your family and drinking partners.

One day you will emerge from your rubble pile and relies what you have done and what you lost. That will be a dark day.
I wash my hands of you and your family I only want to forget

D—-
We must now resolve the property issue.
I have already paid over 700 hundred to a law firm for legal advice and direction. It goes like this , if we go to court we will spend a lot more money on attorneys and in the end it will still be 50-50 minus the legal fees, in addition things that are private may come out in court that would be bad for you and me. The best way to move on is out of the courts, just between us and use the attorneys for the necessary binding paperwork only.

I got too different real estate agents to look at the property and give me there estimate as to its current market value. They put the selling price between 260,000 and 275,000 of course it could take some time to sell it.

Your personal bills would come off the top we would split the remainder.
There are some issues with selling the property that bother me.
1. The pet Cemetery would have to be moved that would make me very sad.
2. And the real estates agent said I would have to build a deck and repair the kitchen.
3. Putting the property on the market could take some time and I am eager to put you and your family behind me.
Because of these three issues I would be willing to consider the following.
If you were interested in keeping the property for your retirement and income strategies, I would be willing to reduce my share to 70,000 plus the camper trailer as incentive.

Don’t misunderstand this gracious offer as anything other than what I previously stated. An additional benefit for me may be that the cats would get to live their lives out where they grew up of course that would be up to you.
Maybe you could find a family member or a mortgage house to finance this small amount after all the properties are paid for. Whatever you decide you must let me knowin the next 10 days. If I don’t hear from you I will instruct the attorney to go forward with the necessary legal steps.

btw, everything including the value of my properties is lies. They aren’t even worth $200,000

kim frederick

Thanks, Witsend. I don’t remember the case but I remember similar ones. It’s all so very sad. I hope some day we can see it, stop it, and fix it.

witsend

Actually now that I think about it these books “A boy called it” and the sequals that follow could be important reads for many of us. This boys mother has to be an excellent example of a female S/N/P at the very top of the spectrum.

I read all the books when they came out but don’t remember many of the horrific detail.
This boy was also a PRIME example of how society turns their heads and does NOT get involved. He was certainly failed by the system many, many times until a teacher stuck her neck out and didn’t give up. The school system should have gotten involved long before they finally did as there was much evidence when he was at school that he was being abused.

His father also “stood by” for many years and did not save his son. And his father was a FIREMAN. Someone who saves peoples lives.

Although these books are very disturbing reads as I recall, they are representing many of the same issues we talk about here at LF.

witsend

skylar

Well it is CERTAINLY ALL ABOUT HIM. He desperately “tries” to sound normal, by saying how much he cares and loves you blah, blah…BUT it always goes back to HIM.

“You tortured me, when I couldn’t find you” This is a good example. In other words I see it as he is trying desperately to “act” as if his CONCERN is for you as he couldn’t find you. BUT it COMES out as it really is….All ABOUT HIM.

Everything he says is a contradiction. And he repeats that OVER and OVER and OVER again throughout the email.

Its as if he is “acting” and saying in ONE breath…I Love you, yet in the next breath, I blame you for this and I blame you for that and I blame………Blah, blah

In the analogy he tried to make about his “love” being like a campfire….As I read throught the email I would CONCLUDE my own analogy, that his love WAS like FIRE itself and his love would BURN the recipient. (you)

kim frederick

Skylar, It’s like the first part is all about convincing you that he’s the victim. FOG…or perhaps in this case smoke as in smoke screen. Then he uses the kittys against you.etc etc etc. After he feels he’s plied you sufficiently with fear obligation and guilt, he immediatly moves into finances. I see this as an attempt to completely manipulate you. Listen to your instincts, don’t be blinded by rhetoric, and don’t let your own feelings get in your way! Look out for YOU. Take some of EB’s advise….I’m sending you white light.

skylar

witsend,
thank you. As easy as it is to see through OTHER people’s emails from their xP’s, once I get one from mine, I just feel like I’m in a daze. I didn’t even notice that it was ALL ABOUT HIM.

kim,
thanks for the white light, I really need it.

ANewLily

Dear Skylar,

I read the email three times and still came up with the same conclusion: He thinks all of it is YOUR fault (textbook socionarcissist) and he is “pure” white — just listen to his pity party of deep pain that YOU caused. No acknowledgement of his abusive behaviors at all!

‘You” gave him at least seven narcisistic injuries, GOOD for you!!

PLEASE do not give in to settling the property between the two of you — Seek legal counsel no matter what the cost! THUS, I speak from experience. Don’t do it!

You are in my prayers and thoughts as you endure this! You are strong. You WILL prevail!

skylar

Lily,
LOL! I’ve given him more than 7 narcissistic injuries! I can assure you!

ironically, he has lived “underground” all his life and I was the veneer so that people in our neighborhood would not know his last name. He wouldn’t tell his friends where he lived. He has virtually never had a job, and his name does not appear anywhere on our property deed. His address has always been a PO Box. On my tax returns I wrote down my income as being RENT from him. Therefore, despite 18 years living there, he doesn’t own CRAP. Our business was in my name so that he wouldn’t get in trouble for flying for hire without a license – not even a private pilots license. He only has the medical pilots license. I was the “front man”.

He must not have thought of this. I also told him, months ago that if he wanted half the house, I’d want half the helicopter. Suddenly he says that the helicopter has a lien on it. I asked “where is this lien recorded? which county?”
“Huh, I don’t know” was his answer.

I actually feel sorry for him because I think he is losing his ability to con. He’s just not as slick anymore and he doesn’t know how to move on to reality. Like Philip Garrido, he is now moving into the DELUSIONAL faze. I guess this is what happens to people who have told lies all their lives. They lose the ability to distinguish reality from their own falsehoods.

neveragain

Skylar….he is trying to take control while making you feel you are the horrible bad person. BULLCHIT!!!! All his accusations are projection of the kinds of things HE does to people. Ignore all that.

Pay attention to the end. HE has consulted real estate agents. That is not the same as an appraisal of what the property is worth. And even appraisals can vary WILDLY. And sometimes depends on the attitude of the person who orders the appraisal. As far as what a real estate agent says, those values can vary GREATLY. Did he ask for the bottom line price it would sell at quickly? Or did he ask for the price if he is willing to wait for the right buyer to come along. Ask to see the comps that those figures are based on. Get an attorney NOW and let him ask for the comps, actually. Remain NC. Don’t respond to his email AT ALL. Just go get an attorney, even if you have to scrub toilets all night to pay for it. It will be worth the medical bills you will save down the road. There are places that offer reduced fees if funds are a problem.

Anyway, that is my advice, for what it is worth. I can feel my anger and anxiety mounting just thinking about what you are facing! (Damn that empathy! LOL!) But it makes me realize what it must be like for you.

I really hope you don’t respond and that the next person he hears from is your attorney. He is trying to take control AGAIN and telling you how things are. His opinions are worthless.

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