By | April 23, 2010 77 Comments

Psychopathic parents and the disappearance of baby Gabriel Johnson

By Ox Drover

In the last few years the national media have picked up several stories of psychopaths using their children as weapons to inflict severe emotional damage to the nurturing parent. In the “Clark Rockefeller” case, the man posing as a member of the Rockefeller family kidnapped his daughter from a supervised visitation and held her hostage for several days before he was found.

Another case featured here in a Lovefraud article was about Dr. Amy Castillo’s three children being murdered by her husband to inflict punishment on her after she had warned the judge that her ex-husband had made this very threat. In spite of this, the judge let the psychopath have unsupervised visitation with these children and the he carried out the threat.

Baby Gabriel

In December of 2009, I saw on Fox News the story of baby Gabriel Johnson, reported missing by his father, Logan McQueary, after the mother, Elizabeth Johnson, had fled with the baby.

Gabriel’s mother, in typical psychopathic style, tried to inflict emotional pain on the baby’s father by threatening in phone calls to McQueary to kill the child. Later, Johnson called the baby’s father and told him that she had smothered the infant to get back at him. This call set off a search for her and/or the infant. Johnson was captured several days later, but there was no sign of the baby, Gabriel. McQueary was granted, after the fact, custody of the missing baby by the courts.

In custody, Johnson told various contradictory tales of what happened to the baby. A person she had met on Craig’s List who had been hired to watch the baby during her flight from law enforcement was contacted and interviewed and indicated the baby appeared ill and may have been drugged during the short time she babysat with him.

Finally, Johnson came up with the story that she had given the baby to a couple in a park and she did not know their names or where they were from. Subsequent evidence seems to back up this story and the child may indeed be in the illegal custody of a couple, who surely by this time, know that they have a kidnapped child, but have not come forward to return the child.

No love for children

While not every psychopathic parent of a child with a nurturing parent goes to the lengths of the above referenced psychopaths to torture the nurturing parents, it is an indication that psychopaths have no love or concern for their children. Psychopaths will use those children to emotionally torture the nurturing parent, who does care about the welfare of the children.

Many parents here on Lovefraud have indicated the emotional torture that they have experienced in concern over their children when the children are in the custody of their psychopathic co-parent. Children are frequently alienated from the nurturing parent, child support is frequently uncollectable, and at best, children are left wondering “Why doesn’t my (parent) love me? What is wrong with me that my (parent) doesn’t come see me?”

It is apparent from the number of times that judges decree that a child should be given visitation with a psychopathic parent, or given into custody of the psychopathic parent, that the family court system does not understand the danger to the children involved in the contact with these destructive people.

It will only be with education of the lawyers and judges about psychopathy that there is even a chance this current situation may change and children may be protected from the violence of emotional and physical abuse by these disordered parents. Parents, in my opinion, should have no rights, but children do and should have “rights” to be protected from abuse from any source, especially psychopathic parents.

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I agree with this post, unfortunately, the children are victimized by the flawed parent. I, like so many others, have a story to tell and would like some feedback. I have been reading the postings on this site and find some solace in them.

I’m not sure what to label my husband, narcissist, sociopath, or just a plain jerk. We have been married 17 years and I went to my attorney yesterday wondering what my options are for an exit strategy. He has been gaslighting me for years and I have been too enmeshed to see it. There were lies before we were married about how long he went to school and an old girlfriend that he kept on the sidelines. He seemed so charming and I thought “wow, how did I get sooo lucky that he seems to accept me and all my baggage, considers my daughter a blessing”. I was a little wary at first, but after our first kiss, I was hooked.

Our courtship happened pretty fast. He wanted to climb the ladder at work, he does have a good work ethic, and this meant moving with him out of state. He started doing things that I thought I was just too sensitive to. Wasn’t really there for me emotionally. I realized that he never said the words, I’m sorry, for 16 years. Never. He always made everything my fault. He would constantly stare at other women, pick them out and just stare. It was unnerving. He said it was all in my imagination, your putting pressure on the marriage, your crazy, too sensitive, over reacting. Well, he took an early retirement last year and I got to see the real person he had been hiding. He was also invalidating and condescending.

I started finding graphic lesbian porn on our computers, he said it was a virus. He had time on his cell phone on the internet, (a lot of time), said he didn’t know how to use the internet on his phone. Condoms in his overnight bag, he said I was always asking for them, I never did. Objectifies women and masturbates, 2-3 times a day. Took him to a sex therapist, he said I was delusional. We took the MMPI, he is a narcissist and I’m not delusional, just dependent.

He is always blaming me for things that I would never do, and can talk his way out of anything! He called my mom for an intervention for me. Lucky that she caught on, my sister is bi-polar, mom knows what mental illness is and she knows I don’t have a mental illness. He looked up institutions and psychiatric medications. Same day, he started making a list of all our assets. He smiles when he gets a rise out of me, likes when I’m vulnerable and crying.

I have been telling our children to listen to their intuition about peoples behavior. I had seen my husband looking at our 16 year old girl inappropriately. She came to me one night when her dads care was gone, she said she didn’t like the way her dad hugs her. He does it when I am out of the room and I didn’t know that. I know she flinches away from him and will tell him to stop if his touching bothers her. Thank gosh she has boundaries. My therapist said that I should get our daughter into therapy. I told my husband the truth and he said I was “coaching her”. Then he confronted her and asked if she wanted him to be taken away from her and she was breaking his heart. He got her brother to tell her that she can’t make acusations without proof. She said she felt like killing herself. Last week, her dance teacher called and said that she was worried about my daughter because she was cutting herself and had food issues. I think that is enough crap and I need to get her out of here. She doesn’t want to spend anytime with her dad alone, ever.

Husband is being so nice, “just give me another chance to make you happy, I’ll make it the best years of our lives”. He is doing everything around the house, supportive, driving, getting groceries, yard work. Things he couldn’t be bothered with before because he was working.

I would like to have some input on husbands possible state of mind. When I ask him for a divorce I’m afraid of what will happen, I don’t see any conscious or empathy in him. Our son thinks his dad is great, because he is the favored child. Dad coaches hockey, is funny, everyone thinks he’s great. Son may get it a little, he does have lots of empathy so I pray he won’t be turned to the dark side.

After counseling, couples weekend, psychological testing, I’m realizing it isn’t me. My therapist said he is controlling, emotionally abusive, narcissistic, and possibly a sex addict, and it is a toxic relationship. She said this after about 7 months of therapy.

Thanks for listening

Ox Drover

Dear Hope for Joy,

Listen to your instincts and listen to your daughter! This man is manipulative and he is very likely a psychopath.

Only you can decide if you leave or stay, but you knjow the TRUTH now, your therapist sounds like she/he does as well.

The psychopath will never change, they FAKE emotions and Caring but they are UNABLE to do so, it is all about getting what they want.

I would get your daughter into therapy, and it is obvious to me that her intuition is right on. Your husband’s fake “caring” has obviously poisoned your son’s ability to see the truth.

Do not let that influence either you or your daughter. If your son is not willing to listen or see the truth, for now, just stop compeating with his father, and take care of the child who will listen, take care of your daughter who NEEDS your support and comfort and PRORECTION.

I am glad your daughter is not gaslighted to where she believes it is herself, she is obviously able to set boundaries for herself and with your support, she should come out okay.

I’m glad that you are here at LoveFraud, this is a wonderful place. God bless you and your daughter!


Dear OxDrover,

My daughter is in therapy now, I have been told that dad’s behavior is in the gray area of calling social services. When I read your reply, I was so grateful. I am someone who needs affirmation to know what I am doing is right. My husband has a magic bag of manipulation and it is endless. His friend called the other day and said “you don’t sound crazy”. Nice. Husband is setting the stage for something really bad. So glad that I was able to get professionals to verify my sanity.

When my husband said I was turning the kids against him and already turned step-child against him, she said he never gave a crap about me.

My dad is narcissistic, I was a perfect target. I tried to be the perfect wife, good thing I woke up. When 16 yr old said, “mom, your not a door mat anymore”, it felt so good. I can’t tell you how proud I am of her!!! She said she tries not to look in her dads eyes. I asked her how she picked up on things I couldn’t see, she said that I’m half dad you know, I know how he thinks. Thanks gosh she has empathy and thank gosh she was able to tell me about everything before it went further.

Husband is really, really, really, concerned with his reputation. I am working with my lawyer to see if I will need to file an order of restraint. Husband is very clever, and if his reputation is on the line, I am afraid of what he would do.


hopeforjoy – i am going to be very blunt, okay?

dear woman, please RUN. do not ‘ask’ for a divorce – this is not going to be an easy relationship to extricate yourself from – he will pull out all the stops and you will have to do battle.

I am so sorry that this is what you are dealing with. yourdaughter is not safe with him. she is at serious risk.

Do not tell your husband or your kids what you are doing, just start planning. With these individuals you need to lose any hope of playing fair – you need to get a strategy. There are folks here who can help you walk through each piece of this. there are many articles and posts about everything you are experiencing.

you have been able to articulate his behavior extremely well – that’s a good sign. now you need to start collecting any and all information about his behavoprs – especially as it pertains to money and other women. and i dare say, any child porn.

it sounds like you have some means, so find yourself a divorce lawyer immediately. there is a reference on the right side of this page for professionals who ‘get it’. dealing with a N is NOT the same as delaing with an ‘ordered’ person, and you need a lawyer who can rise to the occasion. You will both need to be able to be proactive and plan an exit strategy that works with his disorder.

best of luck.

one step


hopeforjoy – we posted over one another. glad to see you have a lawyer.

you are so NOT CRAZY, but HE is crazy making.

one step


I’m glad you take my fears seriously. I am a better actress now than I ever thought, pretending everything is great. Talked to a lawyer yesterday (told husband was going to lunch with my mom), I overnighted our financials to him. Told daughter about plan of exit because I didn’t want her to think I was abandoning her. She understands, told me when I want to lie to husband to visualize the lie. It worked when he asked me what I ate for lunch.

I know that I have neighbors I can go to, and I am on the lookout for any weird behavior. He would probably be able to outsmart me though, so I will just keep us safe until I hear back from my lawyer. He is someone who has dealt with narcissists before and he told me to listen to my instincts, he always regreted when he didn’t listen to his.

I do have documentationa and gave it to my lawyer. Took the computer to a computer forensic specialist.


hopeforjoy – well, girl you are just awesomely going down the path to freedom.

he might be exceedingly clever, but you need to accept that you might be able to oputsmart him – theyare narcissists – and you can use their traits agaisnt them, by just letting them get their butts into trouble, and documenting and digging. NEVER tell him that you have anything on him – not a smirk, not an innuendo. gotta go covert.

am really glad the lawyer gets it! there is a poster here, Erinbrock, who will be able to give youtons of step bystep advice. many of the psters here have gone through or are going through what you are in terms of divorcing and dealing with the legal system. hang around. 😉


Sorry, husband came upstairs, been working on my school work. Anyway, I have verifiable proof of porn on one computer. My laptop crashed but I took all history from the toolbar and wrote it down. No child porn, teen crap though. Never knew that there was this other side to him, he carefully kept it hidden and confused me with smoke and mirrors. He traveled a lot and I’m sure was able to keep it hidden. Never have seen him cry in 19 years. When I read about sociopaths and their creepy, intense stare, that would fit my husband.


One step at a time- you are awesome. Thanks for the encouragement, I’m almost there!!! I am awed by the people who have been with these preditors and can still be sane. It takes such fortitude to find your voice and thrive. I do have hope for the future, scared but hopeful.


hopforjoy – i have to run, but please remembe rto clear your browsing history so that he can’t see where you have been on your laptop.

teen porn. i have no words that i am allowed to write here.

take care.

Ox Drover

Dear Hopeforjoy,

Don’t down grade your smarts, lady! sounds like you have got your chit together all in one sock!!!! Your daughter too, glad she is doing fine and sounds like with some therapy she will be okay and with a mom who gets it and validates her, she has the tools she will need from here on in! Just keep standing by her.

I hope your son will also get it eventually, but at that age it is difficult for a boy who loves his “great dad” who plays sports with him, etc.

Yea, your H will try to smear you but just keep your acting skills honed and don’t let your guard down and boy, is your soon to be X gonna be ANGRY when he gets BLINDSIDED by your attorney, so please be READY for the counter attack and the FIT HE IS GOING TO THROW! Get your financial ducks in a row too because he probably has already been pulling some crap and will sure do so at the MOMENT HE KNOWS what you are doing. Get as much cash as you can conveniently have without him knowing, also wouoldn’t be a bad idea to get a bank safety deposit box as well for originals of important papers or copies. You might even want to get a digital tape recorder to keep in your pocket as a “witness” when he goes into a rage. Might want to get one for your daughter as well.

Looks like to me that you have been V ERY smart about all this and I am absolutely in awe of how well planned you are going things. It is difficult to plan this well when you are a basket case, but you are obviously doing great! I know it is a big shock to find out the man yhou are married to is a monster, but you are a strong and smart woman! So go for the gusto!!!! (((Hugs)))) and God bless.


I’m am trying to be on top of things, husband would say I over-react to things. Will not be a victim of his crap again. There was a fog over me for awhile (maybe thyroid related, it stopped working), now that it’s lifted and I’m no longer under the spell, I’m angry. He thinks he is so clever and is manipulating me right now. Both of your comments about not saying a word about leaving until it’s time, is right on the money! I am going to get a tape recorder, small one I can attach to my clothes, we’ll see how he incriminates his bad self!

Another fun fact in the life of the disordered, cats hate my husband. They will be tame around me and literally attack him. Has anyone else heard of this? I think (lay persons opinion) that they view him as a preditor. They would be right! It could be that they sense evil.



Your sane…..this is natural to question ourselves…but DOUBTING ourselves is what THEY plant in us.

Don’t ‘ask’ for a divorec…….He’s NOT your daddy….

Make your plan…and execute. I don’t suggest remaining in the same house….NOT a good idea to stay with a manipulator during this process…..Hell to be precise!

Stach some money……open up new CC’s…with another address….

It sounds like he’s plotting an exit….with his moves….

I hope you delete your history on your computer after you visit her and other sites……NECESSARY!!!

You need to strike silently …….
When your ready and confident you have all info to proceed.

Did you make copies of all keys….on his ring….
make copies of all tax returns you’ve filed together….
Get all account numbers and who owns them…..

Do this while you play the ‘game’ with him….like you are….picture it ……and do it…..

If he suspects you….you MUST COVER ALL TRACKS….ALL of them….

NEVER EVER Taake any chances…..if you think he’ll find out….renegotiate your thoughts….

Have all mail go to your mothers….
Don’t keep receipts around….like from your overnight mail stuff to attorney….

If he has underage photos of MINORS….under 18…..
Quicken up your exit strategy and go talk to the police or FBI…..
This might be your grounds for a TPO……keeping him away from your daughter…
your son will probably stay with the Disneyland father….but will soon see……
Boys have an inate need to know their fathers…..until they get crapped on too……

But…it sounds as if your in a good mindset….have made some good choices….and are already in prep mode and know what to do…..

Stay safe and the slightest physical abuse….CALL THE COPS and have him removed from the home…..

I would suggest doing all you can to stay in the home…..and get him to leave…..

Good luck…..and keep the education up.!




Thanks for all the advice, now is such a critical time where anything can happen. I will be so glad when this is over, just want some peace.

It’s so strange that H can joke and act so normal around us. Smiles and jokes, loves to tell jokes. Yesterday daughter said no way would she ever spend time with him if we divorced, even if her brother were with. He has been trying to be so nice to her, glad she can see through it.

H was even trying to establish that I was having an affair. Accused me of having someone in the tub with me while he was at hockey with son. Like what? He said he was joking. Then will say in front of the kids “mom’s going to dump me for a younger man. And when I went to Kohl’s one night with a friend, said in front of daughter “oh, so you really did go shopping”. Daughter is like, dad where else would she be? I told him to stop saying those things and he did. What kind of ground work is he trying? Now that I know everything is a manipulation, I see right through him.

He wants to have wine tonight, that means he is going to want to have sex with me. Can see right through that one too. Lord. I still love the man, but I can detach. I wish I could just turn off the fact that I still love him. I kept on my computer, the mental hospital he wanted to send me to, (had it on a flash drive), so I remember to not fall for it!!!!!!


Careful with the wine tonight…..let him drink most of the bottle…..just let it appear your drinking it…..and enjoying your night with him….
Pour it in that planter or down the sink, bit by bit…a plant is PERFECT…no hint of disposal, each time you flit around….and I assure you…he’ll be monitoring your drinking and wanting to see you drink lots….
Mine would say….what’s the matter don’t you like the wine….so that’s when I started pouring it out….and acting goofy after the 2nd bottle. he was drunk….I was stone sober!
You know the gig.

WHile your still with him….you’ll have to sex him once in a while….if this is ‘normal’ for you guys….
I got to the point I couldn’t kiss him or look at him….so I ALL OF A SUDDEN said…let’s do it doggy style….so I didn’t have to look at him….
a new position made him end quicker and I just played like he was the king of my world….(as I cried the whole time) with lights out….occasionaly, I would light the candle across the room to head him off…..that I wasn’t into it….
I could wipe the tears across my forehead and make it look like sweat…..if he said what’s wrong….I’d say…Oh, baby, you wiped me out! I never sweat.
As disgusting as it is….to have sex with em, once your on to them… this position….it PROVES to them, they still got ya.

Caution…..DON”T GET EMOTIONALLY ATTACHED…..MAKE SURE OF THIS!!!!! Think of how disgusting he is….in your mind, as you verbally cry out how wonderful he is….Oh, baby, baby….yadayada…..

This is why you can’t be ‘altered’, or drinking….it uninhibits our emotions and opens up our minds to ‘talk’…..
You’ve already figured out ‘what’ he is… be careful NOT to get sucked back in…..

What your hub is doing, mine did to me……
Project, blame, accuse and tried to set me up to have me committed…..
YES….DO keep this in mind……

If there is any way you can figure out to use condoms…..DO it….
If your on the pill….go to the gyno and tell him your gyno said your to old to take them….and you must use condomes……
You need to protect yourself from anything he may be ‘carrying’……
Stay on your BC….but lie to him and USE CONDOMS…..
Figure out a reason….
He may already have an STD…..and this is why he’s accusing you of fooling around….he’s trying to cover himself….

Turn every accusation around and it’ll tell you exactly what he’s doing…..don’t take any of them personally, (you know what your doing and not doing)….don’t defend…..just ‘take notes’ on every accusation…’s a roadmap to his deceit.

Be careful and be cautious……and KEEP YOUR HEAD ON STRAIGHT!!!!


But careful and no chances….



I am amazed, it’s like you know what is happening. No way I can get emotionally involved now, but they are so good at what they do.

H is so careful these days, I’m sure his acting out is only with himself. I went to my gyno last week and got tested, just to be sure.

I think the plants need watering tonight!


Erin Brock,

What happened when you said you wanted him out? What kind of storm can I expect? My therapist said I’ll see the real person under the facade…

Can you share your experience with me? He’s watching tv so I have some time before I turn into a zombie.



I do….because darlen….I lived it!!!!

Good luck tonight….
I’m sending you some fresh EB MOJO!


He got violent, pushed me down…..and i told him he MUSt BE GONE BY THE TIME I GOT HOME…..or I’d call the police…

I never ‘announced’ I was filing…..and actually….it was HE who filed……he wanted himself to look like the good guy, trying to get away from the crazy lady…..

You don’t have to ANNOUNCE anything……
Is he violent?
You also don;t have to ‘ask’ for a divorce……

When YOUR ready… can just have him served…….and hopefully when he’s OUT OF THE HOME….already…..

If he’s violent… the cops and go file for a restaining order……
This is the optimal way…..

He was a terrible father, bad husband and he KNEW what he had done…..I NEVER told him what the kids shared with me…..
Why throw the kids under the bus……
Got him out……

After I was released from Hospital the cops came twice in a few months…..He KNEW weallmeant business……
I was just too sick to take charge…..

Once he pushed me down and was physical with me……THAT WAS IT!!!!!

I cut him off for a few months…..then he kidnapped my kids…..

We had been togethr 28 years… I don’t ever think he thought I was serious……even to this day…..
Iv’e been NC for 2 years

Never any regrets, or doubts…..
I doubted myself……but quickly had enough abuse to pull from that I came back around to sanity……

GOod luck.

Ox Drover

Dear Hopeforjoy,

I’m not sure with some of them if theye EVER “get it” that you are SERIOUS and will NOT take them back. Even with my egg donor, she thinks eventually we will “kiss and make up” because in the past, she has always sooner or later got that to happen. Same with a spouse, they have always eventually won, so they think they will this time too and so will keep popping back up with “i love you” or threats.

You can bet though if he is lusting after your daughter, he has got some “strange” on the side…if you have the money you might want to have him followed. If he’s so hep on his “reputation” some nice slimely photos might make him more cooperative.


Didn’t seem to work with mine though….he just turned it on me……it’s my crazy wife….
THIS is why it was so rewarding to hear of his BUST!!!!


Hi everyone!
Have been out of action with an ulcer and an abscessed tooth that just about drove me crazy, but boy, am I glad I checked in and read this article! It makes my heart hurt and it hits home with my son.

Hopeforjoy, you already know what you need to do and I applaud you for that. You have much support here! I remember quite clearly those last days before my ex spath left and they were pure hell. He knew he was going and he did everything he could to make it horrible for everyone under this roof and others as well. BUT I made it through that and I can tell you that the most important thing I did was document, document, document. ALL of that has helped me win when it comes to protecting my son. My ex cannot see him without supervised visitation and there is a protection order on me as well. Your soon to be ex will most likely try every trick in the book, but you can beat him at his own game. I know that it’s emotional right now, but for me, keeping things LOGICAL helped because they play on our emotions. If we don’t display any, they have nothing to work with.

My son won’t even get into his father’s car for a short term visit. Not even when there is also someone else with him. He told me he gets “carsick” in his father’s car. I am listening to this child and what he’s really saying is that he is not comfortable being around his father, who’s attempts at seeing his son are very sparse. Soon, my son’s sperm donor/my ex spath will be leaving the state. Or so he says. My son is trying to deal with so many emotions and there are days I want to pull my hair out, but with counseling, I can see him getting better every day. He has begun to talk much more openly about some of the things he saw his father do and we take time to explore how he feels about those things. At the same time, when I hear it, I want to go find this idiot and blast him for what he’s done to his son. But I don’t. My son is afraid his father would somehow punish him and he’s right. The ex would do or say something to hurt him for talking. Oh yeah, he loves his child alright! Not.

You are teaching your children well. Paying attention to their intuition is an invaluable gift. I pray that this person is out of your life soon and please know, it is NOT your fault. People like this prey on people with a conscience and know just what buttons to push. It’s ALL your fault, you MADE him do it, blah, blah, blah…

My ex spath was, and still is, addicted to internet porn. He likes a lot of variety and pled ignorance, using the same excuse yours did. Must have been a virus. I used a keylogger, a mighty useful tool, I must say, that logged everything he wrote to his equally sick friends and all the sites he visited. He had no idea until I gave him pages of evidence. Caught with his pants down, literally. He made me sick!

There WILL come a time when you have peace, both within and around you. I didn’t use to believe that could be possible, but I do now because 99% of the time, I have it.
Sending you and your children peace, prayers and freedom!


EB, I didn’t know you had all of those health issues. I’m so sorry to hear that. I had a similar experience in that I was down with congestive heart failure due to a virus and I THOUGH my ex would be taking care of my child. He did. He took him to a drug house at the age of 4 and left him alone in his truck while the idiot went in to score some drugs. And my son remembers that very clearly. Not even bad health will stop them from doing what they’re doing. Incredible, but more than believable. I believe today there really ARE bad people and my ex and yours are two of them.


Its true what is says that the child is often left wondering why the parent doesn’t love me? My teacher told me the other day that daughters die to have an approval from their dad. Well in the back of my mind I knew that I can never get approval from my dad. No matter how hard I try to please him or have him love and care for me. Sometimes I forget and I show him how I made honor roll. He frowns and says oh okay. I get hurt and storm away. Its almost like does he not know how hard I worked to receive this award? But you know what I can never win his approval or his love. He can never love anybody nor care for anybody. I have to keep remembering that but I usually end up in tears. But you know what though God is proud of me and that’s all that matters.

Ox Drover

DearHurt no more,

In the farm there are animals that are not NORMAL, For example a female swine, called a SOW that eats her own pigs as they emerge from her. She does not have the nurturing instinct. It is a by-word that someone is “like a pig-eating sow” when they have no natural affection for their offspring.

Your father and my egg donor are obviously of that ilk. There is nothing that can be done with them, they are the ones who are UN-natural. We are normal, wanting love and approval from our parents—and it is not there. We must as adults realize the defect is with THEM, not us.

However, you are not an orphan, you have a heavenly FATHER who does love you! Who does approve of you because you are a caring person. God bless. (((Hugs)))))

Ox Drover

Dear Cat, welcome home, darling!!! Missed you!!!! Love Oxy


Dear OxDrover,
That’s true that I have a heavenly father but it will be nice if I could recieve a father’s touch. But I can’t ever and that kills me. Every day I try to remember that God loves me and wants the best for me. But its painful to have a dad who tries to make you look bad in front of people. I try my best to do the things I need to do but my dad seems to succeed when it comes to his family. His family believes his lies and schemes. I can’t do anything about it. I really can’t! I just look like a troubled teenage who is just now entering adulthood. Its not true.

Ox Drover

Dear Hurtnommore,

What he is doing to you is EMOTIONAL NEGLECT at best or is EMOTIONAL ABUSE. There is nothing you can do about his behavior.

What you CAN do, however, is recognize that it is something out of your control. Something that you want but will never get. Your wanting it is what causes you pain.

For example, let’s say that you decided you wanted to be a rock star, and nothing else in this life would please you, but let’s say you are also tone deaf and you cannot play an instrument and cannot sing at all. Yet you keep on HOPING and trying to be a rock star which will never be. But you could be a wonderful teacher, but you don’t appreciate that talent, because you keep on GRIEVING FOR THE ROCK STAR STATUS.

It is the same with your father, your grieving over it and EXPECTING that it will change is UNREALISTIC and that desire itself compared to the reality of the fact that what you desire will NEVER HAPPEN is causing you pain. You must learn to accept that your father is not going to change, you can’t change him and you must accept what IS, rather than grieving over the loss of what is NOT. I felt the same way, Hurt, over my egg donor (mother”s) lack of approval. I spent decades trying to gain her approval and never succeed, so now I no longer expect her approval. I no longer strive for her approval and I no longer hurt because I know it is like me wanting to grow wings and fly like a bird. It is not going to happen. (((hugs))))


Dear Cat,

Thank you for sharing your story about your son and the things you had to go through to get him in a healthy environment. Your ex seems similar to mine, I sometimes hope that he gets picked up by the cops for doing perverted stuff in his car. Pretty sure he was doing something nasty with his getting so worked up about it.

One thing husband will say is “I’m not a monster”, he must believe he is somewhere really deep inside. I never inferred he was a monster, I kept trying to get him help and told him I would forgive anything if he could only be honest with me. Looking back, I don’t think he has the ability to be honest so I would be waiting forever, that is a lot of wasted time.

Can’t wait until this is over! I was thinking today how proud I am of my daughter, she has so much courage! She was able to speak up about something so painful. When you talked about your son knowing he doesn’t want to go with your ex spath, my daughter says the same thing. The really scarry thing is, I might have not believed her two years ago. I found lesbian porn on my computer and believed husband when he said I must have got a virus. I didn’t think it was possible for him to do that. It was contrary to what I knew about him. He never was interested in porn at home, never wanted to watch it. Even though I have proof, he still tries to get out of it. Weirdo!!!

I was asking my kids what their two biggest fears were, daughter said her biggest one was being abandon. This must be something children of spaths go through because of the spath only really caring about themselves.

The next few weeks are going to be very difficult. I know I am doing the right thing. What is so hard right now, husband is being like prince charming. He seems so normal. Asking me if he can do anything for me. Concerned about my health and if I’m sleeping. Never was concerned before. Would always say everything was in my inagination. When our therapist wanted to meet with me alone to work on my self-esteem and assertiveness, he said I was aggressive and didn’t need help. She won’t see his sorry butt anymore.

I asked this question before, it’s off topic but wondering if any of you experienced cats that will attack your ex spaths?

Can I say how amazed I am of the amount of support I have received from you wonderful people since I told my story? I want to cry from relief that there are other people who know what I have been through.


Yes….those were some VERY dark days/years actually!
I pulled a lot of courage out of being diagnosed with C…..and unable to walk, move from my bedroom…..I crawled….and got very winded….was alone and beind attacked form all sides.
It was ironic…and I hope this is a lesson to others choosing to LIVE with this stress… I did. It takes it’s toll…..and no one can say this was any coincidence.
After years in hell and misery….trying every ‘angle’ to ‘help’ spath…..being lied to , schmoozed, sucked in and used as a cover…..
We finally had peace. The kids said….after I booted him…Mom…it’s so nice to have peace in our home. Things were GREAT….I was making a plan….doing the business…raising the kids….having fun….enjoying each other….entertained the whole family at Thanksgiving.
ONE month exactly after sending him packing…and NOT having contact with him…..ONE MONTH LATER….I got sick. How’s that for PROOF stress kills?

But this was also what gave me strength……
I knew I never wanted to ‘go back to that place’
I lived through my first ‘chance’…..NOW its’ time to take the helm!!!
This was when divorce was filed and spath battle began… my physical weakest……
AT 39 years old…..I NEVER thought my health would plummet…and keep plummeting…..
But the stress from a spath will do this……

So….I could have chosen to give up and rotted……OR chose to fight and LIVE……spath free and enlightened to what the world offers.

You all know what I chose…..and I have NO regrets….NONE!!!!

Come ‘rain or shine’ the spaths actions are all the same……if your ill….it’s a large inconvenience and one that they choose to use as a tool for further destruction or death!
I’m sorry you had your heart issues….(medical) with no support….it’s unbelievable the damage they do!! everything is an opportunity.


Ox Drover

Dear Hopeforjoy,

As for cats attacking Ps, animals are sometimes intuitive, but my parrot who is not friendly to strangers IMMEDIATELY LOVED the Psychopath trojan Horse. I’ve seen my dog not like people before and the dog eventually turned out to be right! I’ve also seen dogs be wrong. I think it just depends on the animal. It is also possible that he had kicked the cat when you were not looking too. So the cat may have been provoked. Cats are not generally as tolerant of abuse as dogs may be.

Hang in there and just keep assuring your daughter that you will not abandon her—her father has already not only abandoned her but abused her. Just comfort her. And, take care of yourself as well! (((hugs)))



Holy cow, I can’t believe the hell you went through. To have the peace of mind to know that the P is out of your life and that the stress of living with a deranged person did that to you.

I can never know exactly how much crap you went through, but my heart breaks when I think that P’s don’t give a rip about your pain. In a way, I pity them. I would rather be the heroine that you are and able to feel emotion, than a stupid P who doesn’t have a clue.

Everything is an opportunity, those are words of wisdom


We all have a valid ‘story’…..we all SUFFER!

Pay attention darlen… know how the story goes…if you stay!

I’m ‘pro-life’…..when it comes to spaths…. (no reference to abortions)

Choose life!!!


Hi Oxy! I’ve missed LF and everyone here. I’ve read your wonderful comments and as always, you have so much to offer!

EB: you know, I really believe there is truth to the stress and it’s ability to attack one’s body in many ways. Mine was my heart. I think my immune system was so tired that the virus was able to slip right in and damage my heart muscle. I came home from the hospital with only 19% of my heart working. And do you know what the idiot did? He went right back out and did what he had been doing before. Our being seriously ill doesn’t affect them in any way, at least not in my case. He just kept on doing what he was doing AND involved my son.
You CHOSE what I CHOSE-LIFE and FREEDOM and it’s so worth it! I have no regrets today and my health is, for the most part, much better. An ulcer I can deal with. It’s not life threatening like my heart was or your C and the strokes you had. The ex was actually the most threatening disease I ever lived with and thank God, that’s gone! Rock on!

Hopeforjoy; this is an AMAZING PLACE WITH AMAZING PEOPLE and I’m glad you’re here! You can get through whatever you have to get through in the upcoming weeks and you don’t have to be alone. Until he’s gone, I would be very careful of leaving any browsers open or leaving and history behind. You don’t want him finding you on this site and hurting you for that as well. Protect yourself, hon. Have faith and know that you have an inner strength that he can’t touch. When I look back, I’m amazed at what I did and what I’m still doing. YOU can do it too! I know how scary it is to have them under the same roof, but just knowing that it’s ending soon is, in itself, a source of strength. Yes, our exes sound similar and mine was into sex with EVERYBODY. He wanted to “try out” the other side too. My presence in his life was just a cover for him to do what he wanted to do.
Your children are awesome! They GET it and you are a good mother or else they wouldn’t be articulating their fears and beliefs like they are. YOU are the safe environment they come to to air their feelings and fears and there’s much to be said for that.

Here’s to freedom!


EB, rofl! Yeah, I’m pro-life too!

Ox Drover

Dear CAt,

I hope your heart is ticking along better now. You are so right STRESS KILLS. It doesn’t do any of us any good when it is HIGH AND PROLONGED. I really am glad that you and EB have both gotten back your [email protected] PRO LIFE, life after the chaos! (((hugs))))


EB, I didn’t have a clue as to the physical aspects of your life. God bless you, my dear! I firmly believe that stress can cause health issues. The mind can only deal with so much negativity and damage before the body says, “OKAY – let’s do something about all of this dark stuff!” My body’s way of coping was to fall down all the time and stay infected with sinus issues, or something else. By the time I left the spath, I knew all of the doctors and ER people on what should have been a first-name basis!

BRIGHTEST BLESSINGS, to you, EB – to you an all who are fighting and winning these battles.


Cat, I’m trying to be careful, I bought a new lap top with fingerprint recognition (the other one died). He was using mine to look up porn, just so he could blame me I’m sure. Sicko. He’s a narcissist and thinks that I am giving him a chance and that makes him not look as much at my stuff. I hide my journals and gave copies of everything to my lawyer. I am counting the days until he’s gone!!!

Using my coffee cup as a Cheer’s to Freedom!

Dear Hope, Good for you!. You have already had lots of good advice from fellow travellers here, but I would just like to stress again the importance of getting any and all documentation and access to you assets etc. immediately. I foolishly expected some sense of fair play on that side and it cost me big time.

Their hubris and sense of entitlement is so immense that mere mortals like us cannot fathom it. Your H’s acting all nice-nice is also a big red flag. Something is up for sure.

As difficult as it may seem now, you will have peace and recover your joy once you are free of him.

Mine is still playing huge mind games, speaking of how they treat their kids.

After 2 1/2 years of battle, whereby I managed to get a court order that allowed me to seize his computer, freeze his bank account, get access to ANY financial info in the country we live in etc, and uncovering LOTS of evidence that he is hiding significant assets from me etc etc etc, not to mention the porn of young lads having their way with each other, he is cool as a cucumber. Flat out denials in the face of incontrovertable evidence etc. We are scheduled to go to trial in 3 weeks.

What does he do? Start promising my older son, who is a chef, that he will “find” the money to set up a restaurant, I am talking a very large sum here. Promises to “find” the money to promote my other son’s aspirations. They are adults. I have simply told them that nothing will stop me from going the course, and that I believe he will find a way to make his promises contigent on a concession from me. Just wait for it.

They love both their parents and don’t fully accept or want to believe the “P” factor. Which I can understand. It took me over 20 years to realize that something was seriously not okay with him, and 7 more to get out. It is natural to try and think “fairly”.

Anyhow, the point being, until this is over, I am still stuck in his “movie” and he is still getting his “supply”. Pulling the strings, fabricating everones reality for them. Totally disgusting.

My younger son has volunteered to testify on my behalf, and divlulge some very damaging info, that confirms the accusations of my case. Mr. Big shot counters by threatening to cross examine him in court and bring up that he once grew some weed. What a prize A….hole. NOTHING is beneath these creatures.

Be strong, and remember, until you are out, you are sleeping with the enemy. Your best asset right now is your own wit and poise, the love of your children, and what sounds like a good lawyer who “gets” it. I finally have one who wants to see my ex in jail. I share her sentiments.

Best of luck and keep us posted when it is safe for you to do so.

And for what it is worth, I am realizing more every day, that I am naturally a happy, caring and capable person. A sharp contrast to the trembling ( inside) confused and chronically stressed person I became throughout most of the 27 years we were together. I am literally down to my last few pesos – but am holding my head high, with a smile on my face. His day will come.

Peace and love,


His day WILL come….
And so…it is……
Your children WILL see who their father is…..when all the bribery and promises blow up on them…..when all thier hopes for their father are dashed…..they WILL see!!!

Good luck in court…..I’m sending some EB MOJO your way…..
Sounds like you got an excellent grip on him…..whether he shows it or not…..

And your son growing weed……SO WHAT and I bet he was a teenager…..he’s NOT the one going through a divorce….and if pops did bring that up….which I doubt ANY attorney, worth anything, would…..but if so……HE”D look like an ass and harm his case further….
throwing stones at his own son……..

Good luck….His day is coming….and your LIFE is here!!!!



It is SO true that what goes around comes right back around. Whether it’s in this lifetime, or the next, they cannot hide their tracks, forever. They lose track of the lies that they’ve told, the threats that they’ve made, and the people that they’ve harmed, and it will ALL come crashing down around them, soon enough……

Hang in there, Anita!


Dear Ox, Thanks babe! I’ve had a couple of doctors call me a miracle in that my heart is SO much better than it was and what I had does kill a lot of people. Stress does kill, it invades the body a bit at a time and then you have to find your SPUNK. You know, I believe today that God kept me alive because He knew what was to come and knew I would be the one raising this child and that’s why I healed the way I did. To me, it’s proof that God really does know what he’s doing. Same with EB. God knew what she would be doing today and gave her the strength and will to get through it.
As for the ex spath, his path includes prison, more drugs, con artists like himself. The whole nine yards. AND HE CAN HAVE IT.
Last night, while celebrating my mother’s 75th birthday, I get a phone call. (EB, you’re gonna love this one!) Now, my ex had his phone number changed a few weeks ago (like I care) and always comes up Blocked ID. After him calling with Blocked ID a dozen times in ONE day, I call the police. The pick him up. Silence for a few days. Sigh of relief” FF to last night: I get a phone call from a number than is almost exactly like his. I don’t answer. I get a text message saying, “Please call me.” I text back, ’WHO are you?” It turns out it was his new g/f and she was calling me to talk about the ex spath. I didn’t respond to this call. I don’t think there is anything I could say that she would believe or that he wouldn’t twist and turn to make himself look good and me look crazy. So, I chose to stay away from it ALL.

Hope, good for you! There has been some excellent advice on here about what to do and what NOT to do. I was an “actress” for a long time before he left. I knew what buttons NOT to push. If you pay attention to his game, you see the REAL PERSON and yes, he will get ugly when he figures out he’s been duped, but by then, lets hope he’s out of the house. The thing that I had to do to act like I bought his garbage was to think and act logical and that’s hard when the emotions are boiling to close to the surface, but I told myself there would be plenty of time for those to come out later. EB has some great advice on this!

anitasee, It really hit me when you said he was “cool as a cucumber”. What world do they live in and aren’t we glad we aren’t there? My ex is going to court again for theft. When I saw him for 5 seconds, I asked him what he thought would happen. He very calmly said that he would get out of it, it was no big deal and he would then be leaving town. The REALLY believe the law can’t touch them and I think your ex is in for a huge surprise. I get the game he’s playing. Mine did it as well. If he thinks that growing a little weed is going to cancel out all that he’s done, I think he’s in for a HUGE surprise! My prayers and support go out to you. He’s one sick puppy! And you are right; document, document, document.

EB, Hope, Cat Oxy et al,… thanks for the MOJO. I am feeling it.
Not to make to big a point of it, but just like Oxy said the other day, even her Egg Doner believes that it is just a matter of time before she comes around. NO>>>what part of NO do you not understand…etc. etc. etc..
I may lose. I may have not dotted every I, and crossed every T, and he is very cunning. But dammn, I did not let my kids see me go down without a whimper. No matter what. That alone has been worth the price. For them and for me. Win, lose or draw.

P.S Especially because it took me so long to say ” Basta”

Peace and love. : )



Keep us posted….
This is a crucial time emotionally…’ll be high, and low…..
So try to keep a balance…..
Go over it….know your ‘story’…..and go kick some spath court ass darlen!!!!




You have some really good advice about documentation. I have dug up some things on husband but even with evidence, he denies. My therapist said it will never be enough, he will try and expain away everything. I wanted him to take a lie detector test (same time I asked him is when he called my mom for an intervention for me), my therapist said the lie detector test wasn’t a good idea. A doctor at the University also said the test wasn’t a good idea. I pretty much forced him to go to a sexual health Dr. of psychology, that’s when the tests came back proving he is a narcissist.

I tend to ramble, don’t you feel like, after all the many years of your husband telling you “you don’t know what you’re talking about”, you want to tell everyone how much of a a** hole he is? Last week, in my Biology class, I started telling my lab partner that my husband is a psychopath, she looked at me in dis-belief. I thought, I better shut the mouth before I look like I’m loony.

This web site has been a theraputic place to talk about these things because all of you GET IT! I feel a bit narcisstic for being so needy. I was communicating with a counselor I met when we had a couples weekend with Retrouvaille, (christian based organization for couples with relationship issues), my husband said it was slander if I talked to her about our problems. It isn’t, but always with the manipulation.

I have been reading a lot of your and others testimonials and many of the spaths in your lives seem to be like grifters, conmen and women. I don’t see that side of my husband, he is actually very rigid with his sense of responsiblity (always on time, if he says he will do something he does it), so it has been hard to see him as disordered. He never did like paying the bills, the one time he did them, he ended up throwing the envelopes on the floor in disgust. Rambling again.

Anyway, just thanks. Hope your ex looks like an idiot in court, it sounds like that would be pretty easy, he will dig his own grave with how he is disparaging your son. I ask this question many times a day, what is wrong with people? I hope to have the same strength that many of the posters here have, seems to come along when you are empowered with the truth.


Hopeforjoy, please, please, PLEASE, be cautious when discussing your issues with someone. “Fits the profile” is, IMHO, the only way that we, as laypeople, should attempt to describe the Things. In the world of disbelief, it’s very, very difficult for someone to grasp the concept of other human beings existing without a conscience, boundaries, etc., and can often backfire on us in our zeal to tell the truth. In the world outside of the spath, these details are “evidence” of a proper diagnosis, but we’re not “qualified” to make such an assessment, as insane as that may sound. We are the ones who have experienced their behaivors, first hand, and yet we are not considered qualified to diagnose.

My eldest son has been diagnosed by mental health professionals and, therefore, I am comfortable in calling a spade a spade. When I’m discussing the spath ex, I have to be very careful because he was never “diagnosed.” He only “fit the profile,” even though his actions, choices, and behaviors were 100% psychopathic, abusive, and perverted.

Here, on this site, you can describe events as they happened, discuss your suspicions and so forth, without consequence or legal ramifications. Here, you are safe to speak truth.

What is wrong with people? If there were a concise answer to that, there would be no such thing as a field of psychiatry/psychology! LOLOL!!!

Hang in there, Hope, and keep posting, venting, and “rambling” as long as it’s helping you down that healing path!


Hopeforjoy – two points.

1/ you say he has a good work ethic. Is this what he tells you or do you PERSONALLY know this. If he is a p, he does not have a work ethic but has figured out how to get others to do his work and ruin those that see his true colours.

2/ the computer. VERY good move. Is this the computer he uses, and would there be copies of his resumes on it? Again, if he is a p there will be nothing but lies and exaggerations on his resume. This can be used to show his character in court. Plus it’s a nice big stick you can hit him with – the threat of exposure – just make sure it’s not you that does it.

Good luck and get out.


You’re right about telling people, even my mom (who I am close to), didn’t quite believe the extent of husbands manipulation. When she saw it first hand, then she said it was like Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde. Then she knew what I was talking about. He fools everyone.

I will zip the lip around other people, know that I have to keep the inner circle small. I want to tell his family and friends but if I bought his crap for 19 years, why would they believe me?



He has told me he had the best record in the company in regards to how his employees felt about working for him. He did climb high on the ladder and is very smart, he could have got his employees to do most of the work.

A few years ago there was a woman who worked for him who was just his type. Around that time he rode his motorcycle more to work, had some late Monday meetings, talked about getting botox, asked why did we get such a big house…you get the idea. I know he did something to get human resources involved. He said this woman was mad about not getting invited to our cabin with the other guys and felt discriminated against. He said he hates her and she is a nasty person. Yet she is on his face book now, he said that it is good to have her as a connection incase he wants to get back in the business. I think he stalked her.

Anyway, I would love to get ahold of those human resources records. Husband told me his record was spotless, and his reputation was outstanding. As if

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