I have heard it suggested that there may be those who “attract” psychopaths. It does not matter what the relationship. Some feel that there are people who are simply prone to involvement with individuals with psychopathic features. Is this true? Maybe. Maybe not.
Why do they feel this way?
Talk to victims. There are many who have been involved with psychopaths who feel that they are “everywhere.” The same story keeps happening over and over. It’s like Ground Hog Day or Fifty First Dates. Perhaps these victims have had several romantic experiences with psychopaths. Perhaps they feel many of their family members are psychopaths. Others report experiencing a variety of different encounters in various areas of life.
On the surface, it may seem like an easy conclusion to come to. I, on the other hand, believe that we have not even begun to understand just how complicated an issue this really is, which may be influenced by many different factors. Here are some of my thoughts.
A psychopath “behind every bush?”
Among the general population, there are not “psychopaths behind every bush.” However, psychopathy does occur along a continuum. It is a spectrum disorder of sorts. In other words, one person may exhibit only a few traits of psychopathy. Another may exhibit some or all.
Therefore, the numbers of troubling individuals may actually be higher than once suspected. If we only count those who are affected by the disorder as those who fit the criterion for a clinical diagnosis, we are leaving many troubling individuals out of the statistical equation. That does not mean, however, that they are not present in our lives, wreaking havoc.
What do we do about all of the sub-clinical folks who may be just as troubling and dangerous as those amongst the prison population or those who have created enough of a stir to warrant in-depth assessments? We may need to take another look at how we decide who is “psychopathic enough” to gain our attention, as many routinely “fly under the radar.”
Once we know about psychopathy and the other Cluster B disorders, we may begin to recognize those with the disorders or a number of their features.
How is psychopathy assessed and why do we care?
To briefly explain, one of the instruments available for measuring psychopathy is the PCL-R, which was developed by Dr. Robert Hare. Only trained mental health professionals are to diagnose using this tool. However, if we look at the checklist items, we are able to decide for ourselves if we know individuals who exhibit the various behaviors. If these occur frequently and/or consistently, over time, we may know someone with psychopathy.
With this measure, professional evaluators are able to assign a score ranging from 0 to 40. Time is beginning to show that this assessment is more successful among some groups of offenders than others.
Non-psychopathic individuals tend to have scores of about a 4 or 5 on the PCL-R. Survival dictates that we must all possess a small number of traits which allow us to act in our own best interests. However, do not be confused. Higher scores likely do not correlate with what is being argued may be adaptive behavior.
The motivations of non-psychopaths are very different from those of psychopaths or those with elevated features. Disorder and adaptation are two different things.
Understanding the psychopathy “numbers game” is helpful so that we do not become too attached to a score, accepting it as the only thing that matters.
Does the number matter?
A score of 30 has been established as the cut score for psychopathy, acknowledging a score of 20 as high, and of possible potential concern, but still sub-clinical. But what about those with scores of 15 or 18? Not exactly psychopathic, but not “normal.” We must acknowledge that we need to look at the facts of cases involving these individuals collaterally. These individuals may be of great concern as well. Ask anyone who has dealt with them.
It is also worth noting that how the score was attained may be of importance.
The real world
So, even if they are not “behind every bush,” understanding the disorder and how these features tend to present should be of great importance to the general population. The chances are good that most of us will be at least superficially involved at some point.
The extent of our involvement may vary, depending on many outside variables. However, I do not think it is safe to suggest that there may be some who “attract” psychopaths.
Granted, we may need to examine some of our vulnerabilities, train ourselves not to ignore red flags, and control some of our behaviors and responses, but we should not internalize our involvement too much and no one should lay blame on anyone for their involvement.
I have said it before, and I will say it again; we did not choose these people. We chose the persona they pitched us.
What about the frequency among family members?
Among families, however, the “psychopaths everywhere” concept may be somewhat different. Science continues to examine whether psychopathy is genetic or environmental. While it seems that both may play a role, research strongly supports that a genetic component exists.
As a result, it is possible that there are many psychopathic individuals in a particular family. This does not mean that everyone will be afflicted, but it may mean that there is an over representation of the disorder in a blood line.
Therefore, it is likely that a non-psychopathic family member may feel “surrounded” by psychopaths. Simply put, the numbers may be far greater than in a family without a predisposition for the condition. It can be a difficult situation to navigate regardless of the causes.
In the end
Ultimately, it does not matter if psychopaths are “everywhere” or not. To those involved, even if they are only “somewhere,” the problems tend to be significant. Whether we are simply more in tune to human behavior, we “attract” them, or we live among more than others due to genetics or rearing tendencies, without an understanding, they can be the most trying people we know.
They have the potential to create problems in our homes, at work, or in our own backyards. The good is that once we understand their behavior patterns, we can better help ourselves and those we love.
Bit of a problem with the older comments link in the thread – when I click on it to read Blossom only the first 3 comments come up, not all 20? Glad you’re here anyway Blossom though I can’t read your post at the moment!
Tea Light – The blogging software automatically opens to the most recent comments. To see previous comments, click the “Older comments” link above. Does this solve the problem?
Tea, I actually emailed Donna about that. I do not see the recent posts and the articles from today on my desktop. See them fine on a laptop and from the phone!
Hi Donna the problem disappeared last night but when I posted the above the Older Comments link wasn’t functioning , it brought up the first three comments that had been posted only, not all 20. I tried on my phone and laptop. But it’s fine now!
There are 3 reasons to believe the 1% psychopaths is totally false.
1) This statistic was created many years ago, before psychopathy was even recognized by most (clueless idiots) in the psychological profession.
2) Psychopaths hide their disorder (it’s a major characteristic).
(You can’t quantify what is hidden and not even acknowledged)
3) Fact – About 30% of women report physical/emotional abuse. (Those Abusers are psychopaths).
4) And many victims don’t report abused for shame/safety reasons etc etc. So that 30% stat is higher!
5) I’m tuned into this disorder and say IMHO that approx 50% of men are psychopaths and about 30% of women.
I think you are closer to the correct number than the so called experts. They are rampant in politics, the law and law enforcement professions. Just look for any position of power and you will find them sulking in the corners. And some cultures are purely psychopatic. I said, cultures, not races. So that gives you my opinion on multi-culturism.
I agree that the “official” numbers are way too low. How many of us have known co-workers, neighbors, teachers, federal, state, city and county officials, or religious leaders who fit sociopath criteria….until they are caught and fit the sociopath criteria? They find the right “position” and charm people and ruin lives. Many of them never get caught and live their entire lives with 90% of the people who know them believing they are “nice” people.
Thank you betsybugs and fightforwhatsright for your validation and not being scared to “call it as you see it”. I have very little respect for those “so called” professionals that just mimic the 1% statistic.
They are PC idiots. That 1% statistic goes against all common sense and reality! They are being PC and scared to risk telling the truth. And YES, there are entire cultures that are purely psychopathic . . and “heaven forbid” . . you say it, they’ll kill you, cause you’ve “offended” them.
Well, I do believe there is a a higher percentage of sociopaths in the world. However, I do not lump cultures into a sociopath category and do not believe entire cultures are sociopaths. I believe in humans/Humanism and that all people deserve human dignity, respect, and empathy. I believe sociopaths and wonderful people are found in every culture and all deserve human dignity, empathy, and respect unless an individual or a specific group of individuals ALL show the traits of a sociopath.
For example, I was moved to an area as a teen where a certain religious “group think” without the “group walk” has taken over in a very deviant path. I have been abused by some sociopaths in many branches of that particular religion. However, I have known a few in that religion who were very nice people and truly followed what they claim to believe. I can’t state that all people in that religious culture are sociopaths. That would not be “humanly correct.” I can only look at the traits throughout history of some individuals and some large groups of people in that religion whom have murdered in the name of that religion and see that there were/are sociopath traits in some of them.
Donna may have more information in this area pertaining to research. However, my educational background involves studying people and research and I have seen no evidence that entire “cultures” are all sociopaths.
So, while I agree with the general assessment that there are most likely more people on the sociopath personality disorder spectrum than some claim, there is no evidence that every individual in any specific culture is a sociopath simply by being born into that culture.
I also take into consideration that I have personality traits that can make me a target. Loaning money too easily has been one I’ve struggled with in the past. Being too nice to people who did not return it is another. Staying to long with people, and in situations, that were not in my best interest is another way I have remained the target/victim of sociopaths. Therefore, my traits may cause me to “feel” there are more sociopaths around simply because they seem to come my way when they see an easy target to meet their sociopath needs. I also believe that the experts only look at murderers and larger scale criminals as sociopaths. But, I know, as all of us whom have been victims of the smaller scale sociopaths, that there are a lot more of them at all areas of the sociopath/personality disordered spectrum. I live around several of them (two are in that religion I am discussing) and none of them have criminal backgrounds. The members of their church would say that they are great people. But, they don’t live next door to them and see the bullying they do to their neighbors. But, they are on the sociopath spectrum. The one with whom I am involved to a degree at this time is a pretty severe narcissist with most of the red flags waving. However, he also does not have a criminal background. Those are the ones that don’t get put into the statistics…and the ones most of us know make the numbers much higher. Not cultures. Individuals of all different races, creeds, religions, non religions, backgrounds, careers, etc. Some groups of them have developed a sense of “groupthink” if they all have the same beliefs and they egg each other on in their exploits, abuses, piety, ignorance, white and blue collar crimes, hate, etc. Not whole cultures.
Nobody is saying that ALL people of a certain culture have the same personality characteristics. Some dogs are bred to have certain sweet characteristics. But not ALL golden retrievers are sweet… on the other hand not ALL pit bulls are aggressive. But you can bet that MOST golden retrievers (collies, cockerspaniels etc) have easy going, sweet dispositions… and MOST pit-bulls (and rotweilers etc) are aggressive.
Personalities, i.e., aggression, sweetness, shyness etc are inherited and you most certainly “CAN” DRAW CONCLUSIONS ABOUT the NATURE OF A CULTURE (even though there are exceptions). I would rather be a a room with a bunch of Golden retrievers, than a bunch of pit bulls. How about you?
I forgot to mention (although it’s obvious) “we are animals”. We have DNA just like other animals (i.e., dogs). The same laws or inheritance (DNA) apply. Dogs, horses etc are bred for certain physical and emotional characteristics. We also, through years of evolution have acquired certain emotional and physical characteristics. This is obvious, and so are the conclusions.
Sarah999:
One poster wrote above that there are “entire cultures” that are purely psychopathic. If you review your posts, you will find that you agreed, by writing the same phrase, with that statement.
I felt a personal need to post that I do not agree with that statement.
I do believe the statistics on sociopaths and/or psychopaths are low. I agree with that possibility.
However, I wanted to make it clear in my post that I do not agree that entire cultures are psychopaths or sociopaths. When people use code words about hating being PC or PCs are idiots as one person posted, that causes me to feel a need to make it clear that I only agree with the statistical assessment and not that entire cultures are sociopaths.
I also don’t consider dogs when thinking about people. I could be inaccurate, but my understanding is that human DNA and dog DNA are not the same.
As you stated above, I do call it as I see it. I am doing so now and I am not asking anyone to agree with me, or for permission to disagree with what I consider “loaded” statements against entire “cultures” and a problem with being “multi-cultural.” I do not have a problem with entire cultures or a multi-cultural population. I am making sure that is understood about me. I am doing that for myself…making it clear that I do not believe that some cultures are “purely psychopathic” as was written in the above posts.
I only agree with the possibility that researchers do not consider some people on the sociopath spectrum in the statistics. I listed some possibilities above as well. I just disagree with labeling entire cultures as psychopathic. I would have to see some kind of research about that. Otherwise, that phrase coupled with hatred for being “correct” and kind to people of all cultures individually is not something I agree with concerning the two posts above that have these statements.
I have to agree somewhat with fight4right here.
I would also caution against overconflating biology and culture. How much is “over”? Hard to say, but just remember they are not interchangeable.
Hi Raggedy Ann: Yes. It is very easy to get hypervigilent after dealing with any abusive person.
Fight, imo hypervigilance is EXACTLY the right word for seeing them “everywhere.” I hadn’t identified it correctly, but I think I have seen it repeatedly here. I am probably more in agreement with the standard numbers myself, certainly moreso than “50% of men”.
You are the first person I have seen using the word this way. Thanks for crystalizing it for me.
Hi Raggedy Ann,
I am glad the word solidified your reactions to things. It certainly describes mine also. Hypervigilence is a big part of PTSD. The Amygdala just takes over without my even being able to form a thought and it sees a sociopath behind every bush” as the article discusses.
I have to be very careful and educate myself to distinguish between real sociopath attributes according the medical information and people that are troublesome or maybe have a personality disorder that causes them to shift into sociopath behaviors when they are hypervigilent, but whom are capable of empathy, “being there” for others, and aren’t searching for victims. In my family, there tend to be Narcissists and their “feeding tubes” without complete sociopath brains. Still frustrating, but not complete sociopaths. They have empathy. The feel love to a degree. They just aren’t too deep.
Because we have damaged by spaths in many different ways, we set our antennas on extra, extra, ultra, ultra high frequency pick up mode.
The damage the spaths have left us with can be a lifesaver but in some ways it can a lead weight.
People are just that-people, we all make mistakes, we all have weaknesses, That does not make us sociopaths, nor does it make the majority of people we meet spaths. It just makes people, human.
There are people that cheat, perhaps even serial cheat, that alone dose not make them sociopaths; immoral, weak in a moment of temptation, perhaps even unhappy, yes.
There are people that are moochers, that alone does not make them sociopaths; they are lazy, they are willing to take anything they can get for nothing, they are incredibly cheap.
There are people that believe they are God’s gift to mankind, that trait alone does not earn the sociopath diagnosis; egotistical, stuck up, over confident, yep.
There are irresponsible people, those who can’t keep track of when bills are due, the ones who are late for everything-time means nothing to them, even the people who never return emails or calls; but even if they do all of those things they are not spaths. Nor are the ones that fail to keep up with car maintenance or don’t mow their lawns.
Even a person that is always looking for a scapegoat is not a sociopath; they refuse to take responsibility for their actions; they can not accept that either they or their decisions are wrong; they are immature, but not a spath.
Any one item on the Hare list is that, one item, it is an indicator of sociopathic personality, but likewise it can just be simply human foible or an indication of something else, perhaps a problem that can be ‘fixed’.
If we live a life encased by walls, afraid of everything, the spath have won the ultimate victory, they have stopped us from having a life. They do not have a life and their damage has taken the life away from us; one point for them and none for us.
I am guilty of the walls, I built such thick high ones that I can not outwardly express emotions; no anger, no laughter, no tears. I couldn’t cry when my mom died or when one of my furries crossed the Rainbow Bridge. I am afraid to reconnect with my ‘high school sweetie’ face to face; the keyboard and telephone provide a safe barrier.
I am guilty of the rash ‘spath label’; during the course of the ‘law suit from hell’, I was introduced to someone that had the potential to be very helpful. In the course of talking with them, they told me they had an affair over 2 decades earlier; instead of seeing that are gainfully employed, currently married for over 10 years, and truthful enough to say they cheated; I only saw CHEATER; is this person a spath.
I know that I have to turn my antenna down to ‘very ultra high frequency sociopath alert’. In order to live and enjoy life, I have to see people as people, not as sociopaths; listen to my gut, look for the red flags and proceed accordingly; everyone is not the ‘sociopathic monster under the bed, in the closet, or in the drain’. Unfortunately with sociopathic baggage, it’s easier said then done.
Hi lost everything: What a very well thought out post. It is so true about watching for our brain to see spaths everywhere after so much trauma. Your post is great and helps to see that hypervigilance is a very tricky trauma/PTSD brain difference that occurs.
Thank You Lost and Fight!!
I needed to hear this today.
Hi Imara, I hope you feel more centered today. I find, with the majority of posts here, that wonderful people help me stay centered…Not stuck in hypervigilence and not too passive. Me.
You are certainly entitled to believe whatever you like (whether the facts support it or not).
Yes, every person is allowed to believe whatever they want whether the facts support it or not.
It is very difficult for victims of sociopaths to discern between facts and beliefs sometimes. It is not our fault. Many here discuss something called Cognitive Dissonance in reference to belief systems that get skewed by having sociopaths (or other types of abusive people) highjack our brain chemistry.
Once we study this web site, Donna’s books, other books about sociopaths (and any possible disorders that our abusers may have), etc., we can become more centered and see that we can keep trying to feel safe in the general population. The fear and anxiety trail left behind by a sociopath who may have terrorized us and created Cognitive Dissonance can dissipate over time….sometimes a very long time as I’ve experienced in my brain differences created by PTSD and Depression.
In my life I realize it is narcs everywhere: father, uncle, sib – at least. Suspicious of what all was wrong with my long dead grandfather – def. violent alcoholic philanderer.
what i am left with after the spath and the narc. lovers, and figuring out exactly WTF was wrong with my family is a knowledge of how attracted these folks are to positions of power (I am concerned for my country because our leader is a spath in my estimation (I am not in the US)), and how scary it is to realize that narcissism and spathic BEHAVIOR is rewarded in so many sectors – especially the public sector, banking, and large corporations – the more powerful the corp. is as a world leader, the more spathic the culture.
this lends a whole new meaning to the ideas of resistance and struggle against oppression – because ‘THEY’ really are trying to keep us down – not that it’s personal, we’re just collateral damage. (military terminology used intentionally.)
recognizing that it often ‘isn’t personal’ in our own love lives is a hard concept to grasp. we so want the things in our ‘love lives’ to be personal. some of us who make really great spath bait are the children of losers who have groomed us to be enablers. to us, EVERYTHING is personal. it has to be – that’s how our families and sig. others maintain control. and that’s one of the reasons we stay- and wail when we/ they leave: ’cause we don’t accpet that they don’t care AND it isn’t personal.
and the rage that being treated by an uncaring aka spathic system brings out in us is enormous – because, again we WANT it to be personal AND caring. i feel sometimes like i am being held by a giant, and i am kicking and screening and it doesn’t matter one f**king iota. i WANT them to care enough not to hurt me – but this is not possible for these people or the systems they develop and maintain. those systems are set-up for them to WIN in. we all, then, must lose in that equation. The ONLY way i can see myself clear of this struggle is to not engage – to remove my self from the struggle. which means to remove myself from society, or live on the edge of society, or build society with non spathic/ narc people.
i KNEW this when i younger – i just didn’t understand why i needed to remove myself. i just found the mainstream boring, uninteresting, and confining. i didn’t know who ran the world – still don’t, but i have a much better bead on those who seem to – and they are f**king dangerous. and my caring that i have a place in that world may bring nothing but disillusionment and a deep pain at the end of my life – for living a life which may have been one of falsity.
there are spaths everywhere that matters. they are our politicians and teachers, police officers, and parents, our lovers, our children, the jerk who ran the red light to prove his car was faster and who ran over 2 teenage girls in the process. but he won. and we ALWAYS lose.
so we need to disengage from the game. and i don’t know how to do that without ending up in abject poverty. and i didn’t like that much the first time. but maybe there is a way – that’s in building new communities with different values. I gotta get serious about changing myself, so that i can attract some folks who are serious about doing this – i see it as the only hope. it’s either that or be a f**king sheep.
my family is full of narcs. i wonder daily what my propensities are. my PTSD, and MCS certainly make me look narcissistic. I am frustrated and at times incredibly reactive and hot headed, and self focused because most places are actually dangerous to my health. i can’t really go under or around that – it’s my reality right now. so figuring out my own level of narcissism is hard to do. i am self centred due to injury and necessity – not chemistry. i come from people of very moderate means – but who had more relative to those around them. there was a sense of entitlement in my family – but my dad and sib are narcs and my mom comes from a very odd family. people believe the persona of entitlement i have cultivated out of those beginnings to protect myself in the last couple of years. the work force is brutal here, and if one doesn’t look like they have some power they just don’t get work. ahh, the game. this stupid town. so full of people walking around in their parents’ clothes.
peace. out.
Hi one/joy: I am thinking of you. It must be a daily struggle to remain detached, or centered within yourself, with a whole family of them having caused such stress.