I have heard it suggested that there may be those who “attract” psychopaths. It does not matter what the relationship. Some feel that there are people who are simply prone to involvement with individuals with psychopathic features. Is this true? Maybe. Maybe not.
Why do they feel this way?
Talk to victims. There are many who have been involved with psychopaths who feel that they are “everywhere.” The same story keeps happening over and over. It’s like Ground Hog Day or Fifty First Dates. Perhaps these victims have had several romantic experiences with psychopaths. Perhaps they feel many of their family members are psychopaths. Others report experiencing a variety of different encounters in various areas of life.
On the surface, it may seem like an easy conclusion to come to. I, on the other hand, believe that we have not even begun to understand just how complicated an issue this really is, which may be influenced by many different factors. Here are some of my thoughts.
A psychopath “behind every bush?”
Among the general population, there are not “psychopaths behind every bush.” However, psychopathy does occur along a continuum. It is a spectrum disorder of sorts. In other words, one person may exhibit only a few traits of psychopathy. Another may exhibit some or all.
Therefore, the numbers of troubling individuals may actually be higher than once suspected. If we only count those who are affected by the disorder as those who fit the criterion for a clinical diagnosis, we are leaving many troubling individuals out of the statistical equation. That does not mean, however, that they are not present in our lives, wreaking havoc.
What do we do about all of the sub-clinical folks who may be just as troubling and dangerous as those amongst the prison population or those who have created enough of a stir to warrant in-depth assessments? We may need to take another look at how we decide who is “psychopathic enough” to gain our attention, as many routinely “fly under the radar.”
Once we know about psychopathy and the other Cluster B disorders, we may begin to recognize those with the disorders or a number of their features.
How is psychopathy assessed and why do we care?
To briefly explain, one of the instruments available for measuring psychopathy is the PCL-R, which was developed by Dr. Robert Hare. Only trained mental health professionals are to diagnose using this tool. However, if we look at the checklist items, we are able to decide for ourselves if we know individuals who exhibit the various behaviors. If these occur frequently and/or consistently, over time, we may know someone with psychopathy.
With this measure, professional evaluators are able to assign a score ranging from 0 to 40. Time is beginning to show that this assessment is more successful among some groups of offenders than others.
Non-psychopathic individuals tend to have scores of about a 4 or 5 on the PCL-R. Survival dictates that we must all possess a small number of traits which allow us to act in our own best interests. However, do not be confused. Higher scores likely do not correlate with what is being argued may be adaptive behavior.
The motivations of non-psychopaths are very different from those of psychopaths or those with elevated features. Disorder and adaptation are two different things.
Understanding the psychopathy “numbers game” is helpful so that we do not become too attached to a score, accepting it as the only thing that matters.
Does the number matter?
A score of 30 has been established as the cut score for psychopathy, acknowledging a score of 20 as high, and of possible potential concern, but still sub-clinical. But what about those with scores of 15 or 18? Not exactly psychopathic, but not “normal.” We must acknowledge that we need to look at the facts of cases involving these individuals collaterally. These individuals may be of great concern as well. Ask anyone who has dealt with them.
It is also worth noting that how the score was attained may be of importance.
The real world
So, even if they are not “behind every bush,” understanding the disorder and how these features tend to present should be of great importance to the general population. The chances are good that most of us will be at least superficially involved at some point.
The extent of our involvement may vary, depending on many outside variables. However, I do not think it is safe to suggest that there may be some who “attract” psychopaths.
Granted, we may need to examine some of our vulnerabilities, train ourselves not to ignore red flags, and control some of our behaviors and responses, but we should not internalize our involvement too much and no one should lay blame on anyone for their involvement.
I have said it before, and I will say it again; we did not choose these people. We chose the persona they pitched us.
What about the frequency among family members?
Among families, however, the “psychopaths everywhere” concept may be somewhat different. Science continues to examine whether psychopathy is genetic or environmental. While it seems that both may play a role, research strongly supports that a genetic component exists.
As a result, it is possible that there are many psychopathic individuals in a particular family. This does not mean that everyone will be afflicted, but it may mean that there is an over representation of the disorder in a blood line.
Therefore, it is likely that a non-psychopathic family member may feel “surrounded” by psychopaths. Simply put, the numbers may be far greater than in a family without a predisposition for the condition. It can be a difficult situation to navigate regardless of the causes.
In the end
Ultimately, it does not matter if psychopaths are “everywhere” or not. To those involved, even if they are only “somewhere,” the problems tend to be significant. Whether we are simply more in tune to human behavior, we “attract” them, or we live among more than others due to genetics or rearing tendencies, without an understanding, they can be the most trying people we know.
They have the potential to create problems in our homes, at work, or in our own backyards. The good is that once we understand their behavior patterns, we can better help ourselves and those we love.
i believe that some countries display more spathic traits/ are more spathic than others. this has to do with both the values of the systems of power within that country and the values of the people of that country.
i am not, however, saying that all people in any particular culture are spaths. i don’t think that is statistically possible. unless the country was very very small…yes, that was humour.
I think many people from every country and/or culture is ethnocentric and gets skewed belief systems about other the people in other countries that is often untrue. If I watch different new stations in my country, there is a different slant on each subject. If I watch the BBC, I get news about my country that I don’t hear about in my own country. If I watch PBS News Hour, I get straight news without the hype for ratings. A previous President of the US goes all over the world all of the time promoting understanding, peace, and diplomacy with the people (and often the leaders) in countries we do not understand.
My country (the U.S.) is considered barbaric by a lot of foreign countries. There are a lot of people in my country murdering each other every day. That is the highest level of Psychopathic and Sociopath behavior. Many of my country’s leaders want me to believe that a lot of foreign countries are barbaric. I wonder which is right? Are they the barbarians because I do not understand their culture? Or are they just their own culture with problems like my country’s culture has?
I can’t know because I am not there talking to individuals like me who probably love their families and children, who may have married/dated a sociopath, and who want to seek education and knowledge just as I do.
NOBODY is saying “ALL” to anything!!!!!! For example, nutritionists agree that nuts, dairy, & seafood are healthy foods. But nuts, dairy & seafood are NOT healthy for EVERYBODY (some people are allergic and die from eating them).
When we say a “culture is psychopathic”, it does NOT mean EVERY SINGLE person in that culture is a psychopath. Just because there are SOME loving (non-psychopathic) people in that culture, it doesn’t mean that culture is NOT A PSYCHOPATHIC CULTURE. Again just because some people have a peanut, milk, shrimp allergy, doesn’t mean peanuts, milk, shrimp etc. are unhealthy foods. They are healthy! It is UNDERSTOOD & ACKNOWLEDGED (by intelligent people), that there are always EXCEPTIONS. Hence, the often quoted expression “EXCEPTIONS PROVE THE RULE”. The argument that NOT EVERYBODY in a culture is (a cannibal or a psychopath or evil) is old, hackneyed, and ineffective.
Cannibalistic cultures, that eat people still exist (deep in Africa). Even if a some of the people in those cannibalistic cultures DON’T eat other people . . . the culture is still cannibalistic.
Well, I don’t think anyone considers that PC idiots as posted above are thinking cannibalism should be the next big thing. We have certainly had a few cannibal psychopaths in every country….a specific type of serial killer.
I am not super current with the cannibal culture. However, it is their cultural choice to be cannibals. I believe that is a very small population.
I don’t find a cannibalistic society any different than one where 30 human beings shoot and kill 30 other human beings every day. That doesn’t include stabbings and other forms of murder that occur in many cultures. Killing is killing. I suppose in most cultures, cannibalism would be higher up on the toxic sociopath scale. But, in other cultures, a country that allows 30 murders a day by shooting a gun at another human being, could also be called a “purely sociopath” culture.
Just about every “culture” could look quite sociopath oriented from the outside looking in. That is why I disagree with the statement that “many” cultures are “purely” sociopath/psychopath. I imagine even a few of the tribes of cannibals manage to escape their culture and find it upsetting. No entire culture is made up entirely of sociopaths. Some cultures seem to have a much higher preponderance to kill each other, not want to take care of the children, allow household terrorism, etc.
I have my views and beliefs and as I was earning my degree, I was introduced to the fact that all people are “biased” in some ways based on gender, race, religion, or just that they don’t like how somebody else looks. I was taught to try to recognize my biases so I would treat all clients equally OR if I knew there was a bias I could not overcome, to be prepared to refer some personality types difficult for me to deal with.
I can only stay on one subject at a time. When discussing human sociopath behavior around the world, I can’t discuss nuts and seafood and dogs. I can discuss the behavior of cannibals as something I find distasteful (pun intended). I know there are a few of those tribes left. However, I don’t believe that is what people are talking about when they say things like ‘PC Correct Idiots’ and ‘I don’t like multi-culturalism.” I see code words for not loving all human beings. I see code words for hating some human beings who have skin that is of color, or different religious beliefs than the poster….and I also find that quite distasteful.
If you and the other poster are referring to cannibals, OK. But, I don’t think that was the case. However, if you are going to say that you were thinking only of cannibals, I will accept that you are saying what you meant and meant to discuss that only cannibals are a “purely psychopathic culture” that someone seems to believe would be considered “politically correct multi-culturalism.” Quite a stretch to make a point about one culture.
I prefer to talk about individual sociopaths we have dealt with personally in our own countries and read the articles about those in the news as well as the personal stories people share here. If your psychopath was a cannibal, that would certainly be an article I would read.
Oh fight. You do make me laugh. Lol.
I think comically. Therefore, I must write comically. If I made you laugh, you made my day, Tea Light!
Read Plot’s republic . . The allegory of the cave! “You can lead a horse to water . . . “
and also Sam Harris . . “The Moral Landscape”
Sarah999: No, thank you. Are you speaking of Plato’s “Cave?” I’m not sure how the “Allegory of the Cave” fits into what you are trying to say. It seems as if you are arguing with yourself. Are the people seeing the illusions in the cave the cannibals, the politically correct, nuts, multi-cultural lobsters, or horses?
The other book may be interesting, but I am sticking to other books that are helpful to me right now.
I like the politically correct, multi-cultural, landscape of humans.
I also believe that I can learn to better protect myself from sociopaths.
I do not believe that there are entire cultures that are politically correct that are all sociopaths.
The only position on which we agree seems to be that the statistical number of sociopaths is probably higher than many researchers may know. I do not, however, consider them clueless idiots as everyone can be fooled by a sociopath.
I don’t believe that in reality there is a sociopath everywhere I look. I know that my hypervigilence sometimes causes me to feel afraid when there is nothing to fear.
I don’t like seafood. I am allergic to dogs and horses. I didn’t know we were talking about cannibals until we were well into the discussion. I have no empirical evidence that dog and human DNA are equivalent. And, unlike most of the threads on this site, this one has become very similar to having a discussion with my Narcissistic father with dementia.
I am on this wonderful site with a large majority of wonderful people to share and care. Have a good day.
Same to you!
No blanket statement about a person or group of people will/should correctly cover them all; there is no ‘one size fits all’ whether it’s clothes or people; I am not even sure the new labeling ‘one size fits most’ is correct. Nor am I sure that anyone can make can make ‘absolute’ statements about a defined person or group of people based on said person or peoples background.
If encompassing statements were true, I would not be here at here right now. Given my druthers, I would be spending this weekend in Chicago watching the White Sox and the Athletics live at US Cellular Field and seeing a game at Wrigley, the Pirates and Cubs; at this moment I’d be at United Center for playoff hockey, the Kings and the Blackhawks, yum deep dish pizza in the city that invented it; of course wearing the bracelet my dad gave me for high school graduation and my mom’s wedding band and dad’s school ring on a chain around my neck. I would not be at Lovefraud at all. I married a brilliant, multi-lingual, Ivy League lawyer, from suburban NYC, that I knew since we were kids. What could be wrong, he had all the right markers for success. At this point I should be comfortable, doing what I want, enjoying life, with no money worries whether married or divorced, especially given that my family was financially comfortable.
Well I am here at Lf, thanks Donna and all of you; I will see the games on TV, eat a DiGiorno; watching what I spend, coupons have become my friend; of course my neck, wrists, ears and fingers are naked. Why, because the latespath was a sociopath, there were no visible markers to let me see. Who would have ever imagined that a sociopath could have gotten into law school and graduated with honors; that a person who had the world at his fingertips would choose to be unemployed and die with an estate valued at ‘less than $99.00’ (that’s what my state values a deceased’s worth who dies with no assets); that the little boy with the red bike would steal from a lady who lost her sight, the same lady that always made sure she had Nilla Wafers or Vienna Fingers at home, because that little boy didn’t like chocolate.
The latespath failed to fit the perception of a gifted professional because he was a sociopath. So much for those lovely generalizations.
Now lets talk about the ‘Nation of Attorney’ and how we see it’s inhabitants. Lawyers are smart people; we willingly go to them for advice; we pay them, money we worked hard for and perhaps even got messy or dirty earning, to sit, well dressed, behind a desk and dispense their knowledge. Lawyers are pillars of the community, they show up at all sorts of fund raisers; they sponsor little league teams or other youth activities; some do pro bono work for those that can not afford quality legal representation. Lawyers are those rich people; the ones who drive the nice cars or take limos instead of taxis if they are in a city; are dressed well, conservative but expensive; lawyers are the ones that belong to the Country or other private clubs. Yes, we get angry when their bills come, but we will go back, if the need arises. Lawyers are the ones that not only us, but CEOs and people in the world of entertainment and sport go to when they need help.
What we don’t always see or acknowledge only with s shoulder shrug, is what else sometimes goes into the make up of the residents of ‘Nation of Attorney’. Lawyers get divorced, the profession has a very high rate; they drink, some are even alcoholics; some do drugs; some cheat, some even visit prostitutes; hell, a few steal, well technically embezzle, funds that were entrusted to them by clients. Even this ‘evil’, morally wrong, behavior make do not mark all lawyers as sociopaths.
Scoiopaths are from a whole different world. On the ‘Planet of Sociopathia’ all residents have a variety red flags, that is a given. Many have several of the same; others may have a just few in common with their fellow population, with their make up consisting of the rarer ones. The spath world has no rules, no patterns to follow. It’s all about each individual’s wants. How they accomplish satisfying themselves is as unique as they are.
I have no idea if the latespath would have ensnared any of you, or if he did, how he would have gone about doing it. I know, from the writings, that he knew how to ‘love bomb’, but he never ‘love bombed’ me. I have heard from people in the real world that he was very charming; but as my son said ‘he never was with us’. He got me by his academic intelligence.
Unlike traits shared by an group, ethnic or otherwise, sociopaths are chameleons, as their wants change, so do they. That’s what make so ‘successful’.
Walls are good, they protect us from the spath and they help us to heal when the spath is gone; but if we don’t chip away at the walls we will forever stuck in the molasses the spath laid down for us, seeing everyone as the evil troll under the bridge, not allowing ourselves to grow as the human people.
lost everything:
Well said!
Your story is so upsetting, especially with the added information that this man was a childhood friend you had trusted for so long. But, I agree with you that no group of any kind is 100% bad/sociopath. I liked the way you stated, the “nation of attorney” making it clear that a profession can be a culture and there can be some bad apples in the group. But, not all are bad and some can be quite good. Thank you.
Fight, you’re ok with me. You really cracked me up. I’m a fan of intelligence, humanity, and biting wit when they’re aimed in the right direction. Nice insights on the different news sources and how that can skew our perceptions btw.
Thanks, 4Light2Shine:
I just can’t help it! I know about gray rocking. But, I just can’t ignore those psychedelic rocks sometimes! They are so colorful and I become entranced in the kaleidoscope of transitions as their rocky “theories” truly unwind.