The Society for the Scientific Study of Psychopathy met in New Orleans, LA April 16-18, 2009. There were several hot topics discussed at the meeting including how psychopathy might be different in men and women. The general consensus seemed to be that psychopathy is under-diagnosed in women because in women the symptoms are different.
Dr. Edelyn Verona is a, leader in the Society. Her group presented, “An Examination of Borderline Personality Disorder and Secondary Psychopathy Across Genders.” To understand these research findings look at the list of traits below:
Factor 1 Traits (Primary Psychopathy)
• Glib and superficial
• Egocentric and grandiose
• Lack of remorse or guilt
• Lack of empathy
• Deceitful and manipulative
• Shallow emotions
Factor 2 Traits (Secondary Psychopathy)
• Impulsive
• Poor behavior controls
• Need for excitement
• Lack of responsibility
• Early behavior problems
• Adult antisocial behavior
Dr. Verona’s group looked at the relationship between borderline personality (BPD) traits Factor 1 and Factor 2 in women. They stated, “We hypothesized that gender would moderate the relationship between secondary psychopathic characteristics and features, such that Factor 2 would correlate more strongly with BPD in women than in men. We further expected that primary psychopathic characteristics would be negatively related to BPD.”
The first part of their hypothesis turned out to be supported, that is Factor 2 was associated with BPD in both men and women but more so women.
More important though, is that the second part of their hypothesis was not supported. Primary psychopathic features were positively related to BPD and “F2 was significantly more predictive of BPD in high F1 women relative to low F1 women.”
The authors concluded, “In particular, the combination of F1 and F2 seems predictive of BPD in women, but not men. This suggests that psychopathy (which is typically defined as being high on both F1 and F2) is manifested as BPD in women.”
Their conclusions are supported by other studies showing a positive correlation between psychopathy and BPD scores.
I spoke with Dr. Verona about their findings, commenting that many psychiatrists consider BPD to be a mood or anxiety disorder. She answered that the criteria for BPD are not precise enough. A woman with PTSD and/or mood symptoms can be diagnosed with BPD if she is also impulsive. It does not seem fitting to group these women together with psychopathic women, especially since the treatment may be different for those who have mood/anxiety disorders.
What does this all mean for you who have family members or co-workers with BPD? My advice is consider the degree of harm done by the person in the context of Factor 1 and Factor 2 traits. The more a woman or man has BOTH sets of traits, the more dangerous she/he is likely to be.
Sabrina:
If you are dealing with someone (male or female) who exhibits all of the Factor 1 & 2 traits above, they are nothing to play with.
People with all of the traits listed above need psychiatric intervention on a professional level. They can be very dangerous when confronted.
The more impulsive, vindictive, and lacking in conscience, the more dangerous I believe they are.
My brother’s wife is a psychopath, and she is very abusive to both my brother and my niece. I would NEVER dream of confronting her, because she would hurt my niece, and maybe even my brother. I have warned my brother about her disorder, and I think he sees it too, but not to the degree that I am seeing it.
These people are pathological liars, and they will never admit that they even have a problem. Their defense mechanisms are very strong, so to confront them on your own without any hard evidence is very serious business.
My situation is different, because there is a small child caught in the middle. My main objective is to keep my niece safe right now. So, I keep my mouth shut. But, when my niece is grown, it will be a different story.
If there are no kids involved, and you are dealing with a man, I still would not confront him without having someone with me. And if he has a history of violence/abuse, I would let the authorities confront him. I would not do it myself.
Sabrina,
As someone who has dealt with narcissists and psychopaths since earliest memory, all I can say in reply to your question is “It depends.” There is no way to predict what these disordered creatures will do. The only safe bet is NO CONTACT. And that means no confrontation, no conversations, no “letting them known that you know what they are.” It is always safest and best to have no contact whatsoever. If you can’t go NC, then BECOME THE WORLD’S BEST ACTRESS and never let them know you know what they are.
My father was what I’d term a low-functioning S/P. He didn’t have much ability to control his own responses to unwelcome stimuli. He was a drunk and he was violent. He came close to murder many, many times. Once, after a particularly terrifying episode, he quite seriously asked me (a child) for my opinion of him. I didn’t have decades of experience with S/Ps then, and I answered honestly that I hated him.
Well, let’s just say that confrontation was not a good idea.
A low-functioning S/P wants only unqualified admiration and/or fear. One thing they do not want is an honest assessment of their own behavior or personality.
Many years later, I did confront my quite high-functioning ex-husband about his psychopathy. He (being the psychopath that he is) did not outright ADMIT what he was. He instead gave enough weasel-worded, too-clever, word-salad responses to let me know that I’d hit the nail square on the head. And he ENJOYED being “outed.” He LIKED being compared to Ted Bundy. It made him proud to think he was THAT GOOD at his con games and lies. He chuckled with delight throughout the phone conversation in which I tenaciously held onto my contention that he was a psychopath.
With him, it was safe for me to give him my honest assessment of his personality. Because his schtick was not violence, as my father’s was.
Even so, at the time I confronted my ex-husband with my newfound knowledge of his psychopathy, I did not have the full picture. At the time I confronted him, I THOUGHT I had a complete picture of what he was. BUT HE WAS MUCH, MUCH WORSE THAN I KNEW. Had I confronted him THEN with what I know NOW, well, there is no telling what I could have unleashed.
So, it may or may not be a physical danger to you to confront an S/P. Once the scales fall from your eyes, it is always best to disengage as quickly and as cleanly as you can. Because you never know. Any person with NO CONSCIENCE is capable of any terrible act. What was a nonviolent con man on Monday could become a violent rapist on Tuesday. What was a “spade” on Wednesday might become a “backhoe” by Thursday. You just never know.
Sabrina,
S’s usually don’t care if they are ’officially, legally sociopathic’ or not. Trying to shame or inspire them to change is a waste of time. In my experience, (S’s at work) they’ve only ’changed’ for me, in order to buy time for themselves and the new plot they were cooking up against me.
Standing up to them can be a tricky matter ”“ I currently do this on a strict case by case basis. Out of the sociopathic Dark Triad, machiavellians are easiest to intimidate. They usually feel relatively normal levels of anxiety and have imaginations to work with.
An agreement with some narcissists might be reached if you leave their ’self-entitled superiority’ alone ”“ i.e. they understand that controlling you in ways you wish to be controlled is far more productive / less painless than attacking you.
Unfortunately, psychopaths are the ultimate moral retards / boneheads. They’re pretty much gonna do what they’re gonna do. No brakes or emotional weaknesses of any kind, with the exception of lack of anxiety inducing foresight (which would keep them out of prison). NC is best, until you’re targeted (while captive). If you’re no fun for them to ’play with’ they might leave you alone. My best current defense is to maneuver them into getting publicly exposed, without their knowing it.
—-
Another thought for D. Leedom,
I’ve seen several cases where BPD’s have publicly acknowledged their affiction, admitted it’s destructiveness, and expressed desire to change it. But never the same with a psychopath.
Sabrina,
RFS…Red Flag System.
Stop.
Change Direction.
Avoid.
Minimal contact …if a family member that means…Hi.. Pick up non-ringing cell phone and say hello and casually walk away mid sentence waving Bye or mouthing (catch up with you next time)…. They are so into themselves they wont even notice the phone never rang. And you are out and away from the sounds and sights of an unhealthy person.
Knowledge is power. Most people have to get it and gain it on their own at their own pace!!!
But once you know – RFS!!! Stop. Change Direction!!!
My last ex P realised i was highly suspectingthat he was a psychopath when i made some casual ” flippant” remarks to that effect! Boy! did he react!! ” Duck, here comes a nuclear weapon”.
Dear Stargazer,
Somewhere in here I read that you are having some setbacks yourself and feeling depressed…just going through a lot in general. I am thinking of you and praying that your amazing spirit rises and shines again stronger and stedfast with each day. I hope youre doing better tonight and that you’re snake is curled up next to you making you smile too!
Thank you all-Tilly, LTL, SOS, Rosa & Tood (sorry if left anyone out)for your much needed advice.
I know your right. I have not been ready to admit ecsept to myself until now, but
I strongly suspect the S that is now in my life is my 20 yr old son. I am just now healing-8 mos N/c with my x husband N/P (not my sons father) And didnt feel like I could even begin to deal with another but since I found out criteria of an S , some 7 months ago, the dreaded signs are there with my son.
As of 2 wks. ago, he is now living in my home otherwise would be on street. I know the dangers of being an enabler, and even more so the dangers of a S- but hard, hard choice to deny son a home for a few months. I’ve made it clear this is only for 3 months to give him a chance to retain a job, and I will give him shelter ONLY if his attitude is respectful and healthy. (what are the chances of this happening?) And he must do his share of work around house and pay $ when able .
He is manipulative, lies, selfish, has rages, uses others,twists words like no other,hates authority, hy of drug/alchol abuse, quit school, was in juvey for failed drug tests/,defiant, has been in jail- DUI, and NONE of it was ever his fault according to him. He blames me or anyone (crazy making) for him being such a victim. He REFUSES counseling, or taking any meds that may help him deal. When we’ve tried counseling, he tries to convince therapist, pastor, anyone who will listen that I am to blame and will lie to “prove” his story. He has been physical in the past with me (shoving)and is definately verbally abusive when angered with his g.f. or me. If any of you were posting this ,I’d say Kick him out NOW. I am on borrowed time till his rages start again I am sure. I have said to him if he does, he will be out with a police escort if necessary. Terrible that this even has to be said. I keep thinking if I can help him (once AGAIN) get on his feet, to where he is somewhat independent, I won’t have to deal with him living with me anymore. I know the chances are dismal and weak that this theory will even hold water. At the same time, I of course love my son, want him independent, but NOT at the expense of myself and my 7 yr old daughter. Thanks for listening, any advice welcome.
Dear Sabrina,
I didnt realize it was your son…Have your read Erin Brocovitchs post to Witsend. And did you happen to see the dear sweet Housie is going through the same realization as you? If you havent had a chance to read Erins post to Witsend…or you cant find it…let me know and will try to search for it too…it may be helpful to you. And Oxy speaks very candidly and openly about her experience and what she feels can be done and cant be done. Hang in there. My prayers to you. ((hugs))
LTL-Thank you for your support. You didnt miss anything in the first post, I just said family member as it seemed too painful to say my son. Its been a slow, gut renching ordeal with him for last 4 to 5 yrs. The only thing making sense is that he is a S. I made myself go back and focus on the marriage of his bio-dad some 20 yrs ago and although I was very young, its very poss his dad is a S.
LTL, I will research that blog thank you so much. I may have been involved in that one, but didnt bring up my suspicions about my son. I feel guilty not only laying on the problems Here at LF with my x N/P AND my son. So many others have emergency issues needing immediate attention. This one is pretty intense, but has been ongoing for so long. Once he ran away at 15 for 2 weeks as I was devastated not knowing if he was ok or not. He called threatened to maybe kill himself, maybe go to another state. When police found him, he seemed oblivious of the devastation he caused me and his whole family.
As much as I hate to admit I am afraid of my son when in a violent rage. I have even made him sleep in basement, locked out of house, with a sleeping bag months ago, instead of inside b/c his anger turned violent and he flipped a chair and grabbed me. True to a S- he acted as tho it never happened shortly after. If he did comment, it is something like , well you made me act out.
I have a deadbolt lock and hotel lock on my bedrm door (b/c of my x ) and when I leave every day going to work I lock it so theres no chance of stealing, or getting into my laptop. Its crazy. With my newfound boundaries, NO ONE else on earth would be allowed to put me into this situation again. My son does NOT deserve my help in light of his past transgressions-too many to get into, but I feel stuck somewhat. I guess I can allow natural consequences to happen, he will get disrespectful and have to be kicked out. I know how to be cautious and when he is ‘triggered” I will take steps to protect myself before it ever gets out of hand. He is pretty predicatable now that I know what to look for.
Oh Sabrina,
More than one or two of us completely understand and sympathize. You know that Judy Collins song “Both Sides Now?” Well, many of us here have looked at psychopathy/sociopathy from many sides. I’m the child of one, the mother of one and the ex-wife of one. NOTHING compares to the pain and heartbreak of trying one’s hardest to reach a child who cannot be reached.
No one understands. It goes against everything we have been taught to believe. Religion teaches us that no soul is irredeemable. Psychology teaches us that with the correct combination of love, parenting techniques, patience and motivation, even the badly damaged can be saved. And sometimes it is just not true, no matter how much we want to believe in the fairy tale.
Within the last year, I too allowed my psychopathic child into my household. Here’s what happened: this child found a way to override the blocks I had put on my phone, and ran up over $1200 in long distance charges. Deliberately wrecked my car (by taking it airborne over a hill at top speed, with my grandchildren as passengers) after I allowed the car to be used to drive to/from a job. Stole from the employer at the aforementioned job. Took my youngest child along on a series of breaking-and-entering crimes (that, fortunately, the youngest child told me about so that I could get both the stolen property and the psychopathic child OUT of my house). Turned my household upside down searching for a nonexistent gun that this child thought I had (yes, I ran a bluff and let this misconception stand, strictly for self-protection). Went through all my paperwork and files while I was at work and had a “cheat sheet” for future identity theft that contained ALL my children and grandchildren’s names, Social Security numbers, etc.,. as well as several very good practice forgeries of my signature, and all my bank account information. AND THAT IS NOT ALL OF IT. There are even worse things that I could write, but choose not to out of utter shame and sadness.
Nevertheless, I STILL pray for this child, and hope that somehow, someday, something will change. I tell myself that “if Saul can become Paul,” then my child could change. I tell myself this, but deep down I don’t really believe it. Because I have tried for 30 years now, and nothing has worked.
I don’t want to discourage you or depress you further, but think of your own safety, and the safety and well-being of other family members. Sometimes you must make the most wrenching decision possible, and move to protect the children who CAN be saved. You can always still pray for the S/P child, but safely, from a distance. As another thread here notes, you first priority is to SURVIVE.