The Society for the Scientific Study of Psychopathy met in New Orleans, LA April 16-18, 2009. There were several hot topics discussed at the meeting including how psychopathy might be different in men and women. The general consensus seemed to be that psychopathy is under-diagnosed in women because in women the symptoms are different.
Dr. Edelyn Verona is a, leader in the Society. Her group presented, “An Examination of Borderline Personality Disorder and Secondary Psychopathy Across Genders.” To understand these research findings look at the list of traits below:
Factor 1 Traits (Primary Psychopathy)
• Glib and superficial
• Egocentric and grandiose
• Lack of remorse or guilt
• Lack of empathy
• Deceitful and manipulative
• Shallow emotions
Factor 2 Traits (Secondary Psychopathy)
• Impulsive
• Poor behavior controls
• Need for excitement
• Lack of responsibility
• Early behavior problems
• Adult antisocial behavior
Dr. Verona’s group looked at the relationship between borderline personality (BPD) traits Factor 1 and Factor 2 in women. They stated, “We hypothesized that gender would moderate the relationship between secondary psychopathic characteristics and features, such that Factor 2 would correlate more strongly with BPD in women than in men. We further expected that primary psychopathic characteristics would be negatively related to BPD.”
The first part of their hypothesis turned out to be supported, that is Factor 2 was associated with BPD in both men and women but more so women.
More important though, is that the second part of their hypothesis was not supported. Primary psychopathic features were positively related to BPD and “F2 was significantly more predictive of BPD in high F1 women relative to low F1 women.”
The authors concluded, “In particular, the combination of F1 and F2 seems predictive of BPD in women, but not men. This suggests that psychopathy (which is typically defined as being high on both F1 and F2) is manifested as BPD in women.”
Their conclusions are supported by other studies showing a positive correlation between psychopathy and BPD scores.
I spoke with Dr. Verona about their findings, commenting that many psychiatrists consider BPD to be a mood or anxiety disorder. She answered that the criteria for BPD are not precise enough. A woman with PTSD and/or mood symptoms can be diagnosed with BPD if she is also impulsive. It does not seem fitting to group these women together with psychopathic women, especially since the treatment may be different for those who have mood/anxiety disorders.
What does this all mean for you who have family members or co-workers with BPD? My advice is consider the degree of harm done by the person in the context of Factor 1 and Factor 2 traits. The more a woman or man has BOTH sets of traits, the more dangerous she/he is likely to be.
Slappster:
It is just when you think that they are on their “last legs” that they seeem to get a whole new “second wind” and their ability to stay on and on is mind boggling. At least , if your father was a psychopath then you know what to expect. At least that is one advantage, I suppose.
Oxy:
I will be going back to uni next week. One of my teachers there that I complained about before, is a full blown psychopath. They had got rid of her at the end of the last semester as her mask fell long enough for them to get a glimpse.
However, they couldn’t replace her and she has just sent me a whole bunch of really sickening emails telling me that she is coming back. She went on and said that she will be teaching my class and “will I support her as she needs it bla bla”..and trying to get info from me of whats going on there, etc.
I sent back an “appropriate” email, to cover myself for the time being.
The subject she is teaching is a “core/foundation” subject so that it has to be done to get the degree. Last time she taught I did the “idolising” strategy, I got high distinctions but it ruined my physical and mental health as it was torture.
I figure Im due to be discarded and devalued at some stage . At the moment she “needs” me, but it is full blown psychopath. A sober, very intelligent, cunning, egocentric full blown psychopath.
Should I just not do this subject in the hope that someone else will teach it next year?
Should I do it and do the “your my hero” stategy again?
I only found out today and I have had stomach cramps, migraine and diarrhea ever since.
If I DON”T do it, and she stays on to teach it again then I am in for a beating…if you know what I mean.
I need help with this decision. At the moment she is doing the, “I am going to give you a high mark so what do you want me to teach you and I will teach it to the whole class…but you must obey my every whim for the next 15 weeks,” routine, ( of course she has said this in different words).
This is a big turning point for me. What should i do? I have no idea when it comes to my own dilemma.
Hi Tilly, I know Oxy will be able to advise you more than I . x
But I meant to ask you how your art work was coming on, It sounds fantastic.x
Like with others on here it REALLY pisses me off when people are forced away from jobs they love or courses they love by these creatures. But I guess you have to weigh it up in your own mind and do what kathleen described as a ‘risk assessment’.
When i was at Uni, my relationships with my tutors were just professional ones, me student you teacher (some of them were grumpy sods and some of them were not particularly reliable, and some of them just put you to sleep in lectures… BUT no S/Ps;), I never gave mine or had their personal e-mails and I believe I was marked fairly, according to the course criteria and marking systems and my marks reflected the amount of effort and imagination I put in to MY WORK. Not how much I ass kissed the tutor. But I dont believe any of them were S/Ps! Thank god!
I do find, however that the Art world outside of uni, particularly the contemporary art world, is full of people who will only allow you ‘in’ based on your willingness to massage their ego’s rather than your talents or ability.Sigh.
She sounds like she is being too intimate with you, and being unprofessional at the very least (how can she promise high marks for work not undertaken?!) is there a way you can re-balance the student teacher relationship without getting ‘stung?’
I think this is TOUGH and like I said it makes me shout swears at the screen when I think that this person could STOP or DELAY OUR TILLY in pursuing a goal she has been working hard towards.
Then again the thought of you exhausting yourself jumping through hoops instead of being able to focus on your studies also makes me swear.
I know you will come to the right descision for YOU in the long run.x
xxxx
Thankyou blueskies:
The day I started this course I had this teacher and she told me that we had already met. ( I have no recollection of this whatsoever, and I am positive I have never met her). But she knew a lot about me when i was younger (I had an acting/modelling career and she said she knew me from then). What I am saying is, from that dayon she singled me out. I knew immediately I was dealing with a cluster B but it wasn’t until much later that I realised she is a psychopath.
I also don’t know if I will have to leave later on anyway, (because of the WPProgramme), so its all very disappointing in regards to my art work.
I have handed it over to God but my body hasn’t! I am so physically ill (since I heard she was coming back )that I havn’t been able to go out anywhere at all.
Thankyou so much for your faith in me. I have none at all tonight!
If i showed the emails she has sent to me to the uni she would be fired on the spot. But I would indirectly be firing myself along with her. I’ve dealt with these situations before…but never SUCCESSFULLY! That is why I am asking for help on this one. My art is very dear to me and I have been doing so well with it this year.
I’m good at seeing other peoples dangers’ blueskies, but hopeless at seeing my own!
But the days that I am really happy, I sing “blue skies, nothing but blue skies from now on!” And I really mean it!
Escapee:
I don’t have any links, unfortunately. But, I understand what you are saying.
“Sleeping with the Enemy” is a must-see.
Tilly,
I read your post about the teacher, and I think that your response depends on what you are up for. I know you are a really strong person. I also know that you have been through a lot, and the physical reactions you’re getting right now suggest that your body is simply rebelling. You can intellectually play with the idea of putting yourself in this woman’s sphere of influence again, but your nervous system is saying, “Are you out of your f~king mind?”
If it were me, I’d start with a mental position of “No, I’m not going to do this” And then figure out how you’re going to get away with it and still finish the program. And letting her win is not an option.
That puts you in the realm of being a sociopath to deal with a sociopath. Which is good. You want to be effective, that’s all. Not making a lot of noise, or starting a movement (unless that’s helpful to you). This is just about you getting what you want.
And then, if it were me, I would put on a nice, humble, friendly, non-combative face and visit the dean (not your advisor), and say that you will doing anything to meet your academic requirements, anything at all, but you cannot be in this person’s class again. Emphasize your respect for the school and your deep appreciation of all the other teachers and the program they offer. And say that all you want to do is complete your degree program.
If the dean says that there is no other option. Ask if s/he is saying that the only way to obtain the degree there is through this teacher. And that everything you have done there so far, the money that has been paid, and the work you have done is now basically placed at risk, because she is the gatekeeper to you moving forward? And you have no other choice but to place your academic career in this person’s hands?
And if the dean says yes, then stand up and prepare to leave, and say that you will have to consult with your attorney.
If the dean asks if you have evidence or material reason to want to avoid this teacher, say that you do not want to get into a court room situation with this woman. Or any kind of administrative or academic challenge. You understand the relative power of your positions, and you do not want that kind drama in your school life. And you don’t want to embarrass or harm the school or anyone else. You just want to be able to complete your degree with no further contact with this person, and you want her to have no further influence on your progress.
Re-emphasize your willingness to do whatever is necessary to meet the requirements, short of taking another class with her. And tell him or her that if he discusses this with her and then if you are forced to take this class, you can guarantee that this will be the end of your success at the university.
If he says that you must start some kind of formal inquiry about her to get out of the class, agree to do it. Tell him it is your last choice, because the legal assistance will cost you money and you suspect that you will not be the only person who will appear to give evidence.
And then repeat that the only thing you are asking for is a way to get out of studying under this person.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to post that. I didn’t get a chance to edit it. The point of all this is one thing.
You draw a line with whoever has power over this situation, in the nicest and least confrontational way possible. And you say what you want. You want to finish your degree without further encounter with this teacher.
You make a point out of wanting to do it in the least disruptive way possible for the school. And you make a point about your commitment to the school and the program.
And whatever the answer is, you don’t take the class.
If you really don’t want to get into an administrative spitting match with this person, don’t get pulled into sharing your evidence. Just dig in and say that it is equivalent to throwing your degree away to take the class with her, and you are willing to do anything else to complete your requirements.
I know that you’re only a student, but I also know you. This is one of those “just say no” situations. If you don’t finish the degree now, you can wait to take the class until they change the teacher. If the class is a prerequisite for others, ask to get into the other classes by special permission. Advise any other teacher that wants to go to her for a reference on you that you have a pending action against her, and tell the deal that you will do that.
Again, you’re not trying create trouble. You are just trying to salvage your degree.
This is not going to be easy. You are being targeted. Again. But if you want to stop it, you’re going to have to draw a line.
At least that’s my initial impression.
Good luck with it.
Kathy
Dear Tilly,
Go back adn read BETTY’s story (it is a thread here) of course she did not know at the time what she was dealing with, but look at the results.
Back when I was in 2nd year of my basic nurisng degree, I encountered a teacher for one of my classes that I had to take and mad eit through the semester with this woman. At the end of the semester, I knew I could never kiss this woman’s arse the way she wanted it kissed for the next two years…I ended up driving 40 miles one way further and transferred to another University.
I saw her destroy other students (primarily men) all the while pretending to be so caring and concerned and trying t o”help” them grasp the concepts of the class—they got the concepts all right, she hated men! Her grading was SUBJECTIVE rather than objective. Her class was set up so only her OPINION of your work mattered.
After I left one man that she was flunking teamed up with some A female students and went to the dean and “won” that round, but this woman was a flaming psychopath if ever there was one and she was “clean and sober” too, and very CUNNING. I never did have any regrets about leaving and it was one of the FEW times I LISTENED TO MY GUT and ran like a rabbit.
Since ART WORK (and I assume that is what you are studying) is very SUBJECTIVE in what is “good” and what is “not good” rather than like math 2+2=4 is RIGHT, so it is difficult to prove that they are “persecuting” you because they can keep the mask up.
I wish I had an “answer” or even an OPINION on what you should do to handle it. I have found that kissing up to them at times (when you know it will be short term and know that there is an END in sight) worked for me once when I had a psychopathic boss on a project that I iknew would END, so I just kept a “stiff upper lip” went in to work, smiled and acted like “I didn’t notice that you are being snide to me” It was very difficult, but I think knowing what I know NOW I could have done it with less stress to myself than I had at that time.
UNCERTAINTY is to me what causes the worst stress….like WONDERING IF I have cancer to me would be more stressful than KNOWING I had cancer. If you, in my opinion, KNOW what you are dealing with, and know that it is simply for a short time, then you can “adjust” your stress by assuring yourself that it “isn’t forever” but if you stress over the decision…should I this, should I that???….etc stress gets worse.
I suggest you look at in “worst case scenario”
Worst case if I take the class with her as an instructor is______ (fill in the blank) Would it be, I flunk the class and have to take it over?
Worst case if I don’t take the class with her this semester is that I have to take the class with her next year as the instructor.
Worst case if I “out her” to the administration she is a WORSE ENEMY and she knows I am on to her and goes after me.
Etc.
Then Look at the advantages of each situation.
I have the ADVANTAGE of knowing what she is, and I can look at this like a “game” and NOT let this witch control my emotions and my stress….I can take the class, go into the classroom, ACT CIVIL to her, and go home at night and laugh at such a miserable character as she is and thank my God I am NOT her!
For the past several years I have had to “be nice” to a P because it was to my potential advantage to do so. I have had to PRETEND I DIDN[‘T NOTICE when she woujld do something “tacky” to me, etc. It was somewhat of a stress, but more and more as I realized what a piece of chit she was, and actually got to the point that if it turned out that me standing up fo rmyself meant I lost the possible advantage of her husband’s testimony in a civil court case pending, then so be it.
The case was settled recently, so no there is NO possible advantage in me not confronting her face on if she ever slitheres out from under her rock and shows up here again, but looking back, I think all the stress I felt about NOT confronting her was more self imposed than external.
It’s your decision, but if it were me (in the stage I am in now with the “give a chit factor”) I would take the class, be “nice” and “polite” but not overly friendly and NOT gossip with her etc or pal around with her after class etc. just be POLITELY NEUTRAL , and worse case she gives you a ration of chit and you drop the class in the middle of semester, or go to the dean then.
To me, it isn’t the poison snake you SEE that is a problem, but the one in the grass that you DON’T SEE.
The stress factor is the biggie I think, too….can you do this and control your INTERNAL STRESS and worry? That is what I would use to decide. ((((hugs)))))
Tilly, I think both Kathy and Oxy have given you great advice. Not clear cut because you still have to make the decisions but great ideas and reasons.
From my one experience with a blankedy-blank professor, I might not advise dropping the class altogether except for this one semester and then hoping for a better teacher next time.
By dropping my class due to my REFUSAL to sit in his class and listen to FILTHY FILTHY jokes instead of learning the last 3 credits of Spanish I needed for the Master’s degree, I inadvertently gave up that degree forever. I did go to the dean (who was sympathic and kind) but the guy had TENURE and even she couldn’t do anything about it — and he was the ONLY one who couold teach that advanced level class.
Would I do it again? Yes, because I couldn’t “tolerate” him and my at home EVIL MONSTER at the same time and remain sane.
I think you are stronger than I was at the time. I believe in your ability to make a tood decision based on your GUT instincts.
I’m thinking and praying for you in this decision!!
Thank you so much KH, Oxy and ANewLily!
I made an appointment with the convenor of the course and then cancelled it as the psychopath is “best mates with them “. On the way out from reception I bumped into a teacher in the art department who I knew to be fairly neutral and blurted out my story. (A “euphamized” version).
He said it was too late to replace her as it all comes down to money. He said there was another teacher ( the original guy that I was going to go to.. the course convener) that was going to be taking the subject WITH her and that he would tell him that he HAS to “moderate ” the psychopaths behaviour. (Apparently he has the power to do this). He promised he wouldn’t tell anyone that it came from me. I believe that he won’t tell the main players, so there is a chance it stays anonymous. But the convenor “moderating” her behaviour is a bit of a joke, because she is so up his a#se! He is a really good teacher and a nice guy with no idea what he is dealing with. He is young and new to our uni.
We don’t have a “dean” in Oz. Its a different set up. We have someone in charge of each course and we have humanities/welfare officers (counselors) but we don’t have a “dean” so to speak. The counselors just “listen” and confirm they understand and record complaint. Thats it.
But the real reason I would NEVER make a formal complaint (re court etc) is because i have been so badly legally abused when i was totally innocent that just the thought of it makes me vomit literally.
I know if I “played the game” there is a good chance I will pass without having a breakdown. But “the game” is just like selling my soul. I can easily do the work, the subject, the art…I deserve the High Distinction and would get it from any teacher in that subject. But its not about the work with the psychopath. Its about making eye contact continually for four hours straight and pretending that her “speeches” and tears and tantrums and performances for manipulation and narcissistic supply are “right” and justified and that she deserves applause. Its having the rest of the class decide I am like her, because i am approving of her insane behaviour.
I have enrolled in another subject and stayed in her subject… So that I have still made NO choice yet. Just one baby step that could bring me undone if she finds out.
Your right oxy, the not deciding is worse than anything. but when i think about my erratic behaviour last term due to her whims and the tension in her class, it was hideous. You could hear a pin drop, and it wasn’t because she was interesting. She was devaluing the whole class (except me and whoever i befriended on the day) and it was sickening. I told you I am way overdue to be devalued and discarded. This is round three in the ring. Driving fourty miles would be my pleasure if I could do this subject with someone else.