This week “Sarah” commenting on Lovefraud wrote:
What is the biggest difference between Narcissists/Psychopaths/Sociopaths and us? The ability to love!
What is one of the over-riding characteristics of the N/P/S? They are they are extremely jealous & envious and must WIN! We have something they will never have . . i.e., the ability to love.
In the Mask of Sanity, the first book to describe psychopathy, Hervey Cleckley wrote:
The psychopath seldom shows anything that, if the chief facts were known, would pass even in the eyes of lay observers as object love”¦ In a sense, it is absurd to maintain that the psychopath’s incapacity for object love is absolute, that is, to say he is (in)capable of affection for another ”¦ He is plainly capable of casual fondness, of likes and dislikes, and of reactions that, one might say, cause others to matter to him. These affective reactions are, however, always strictly limited in degree. In durability they also vary greatly from what is normal in mankind. The term absolute is, I believe, appropriate if we apply it to any affective attitude strong and meaningful enough to be called love, that is, anything that prevails in sufficient degree and over sufficient periods to exert a major influence on behavior.
In my opinion, perhaps the only flaw in our current measures of “psychopathy” is their failure to assess “ability to love.” Fortunately, that may soon change thanks to Donald Lynam, Ph.D. , Professor of Clinical Psychology at Perdue University. In his presentation, Interpersonal Antagonism as the Core Feature of Psychopathy Dr. Lynam presented evidence that inability to love is at the core of psychopathy.
I have long admired Dr. Lynam’s work, and his rather renegade status in the world of psychopathy research. During his presentation, I sat next to an accomplished psychopathy researcher, who has become a friend. After Dr. Lynam finished, I offered a public thanks to him for his presentation and brought up the issue that no one else is trying to measure and assess “ability to love” in psychopaths. The researcher sitting next to me said “You can have him as your Guru if you like, but there are problems with his work.” I did not ask my friend to elaborate because I already knew why he said that.
Dr. Lynam has challenged the status quo of psychopathy research because he says, “Factor analysis of the PCL-R (the most widely used rating scale) are unlikely to reveal the core personality components of psychopathy.” His making that statement at the SSSP meetings is kind of like a minister at a meeting of Southern Baptists saying that The Bible doesn’t necessarily have all the answers for modern humans.
Dr. Lynam says (and I very much agree) that if you analyze the PCL-R to understand “the psychopath” you run into circular arguments. How do we know this person is a psychopath? Because he/she has a high PCL-R score. How do we know the PCL-R symptoms reflect the psychopathy personality type? Because they belong to “psychopaths” as identified by the PCL-R. The way to get around these circular arguments is to separate diagnostic measures from personality measures. This is what Dr. Lynam has done.
The most accepted model of general personality posits five basic traits called the Big Five (OCEAN: Openness, Conscientiousness, Extraversion, Agreeableness, Neuroticism). Dr. Lynam has studied these traits in relation to psychopathy and he has found that “low agreeableness” explains a majority of individual differences in PCL-R scores. That means that the core of psychopathy is explained by low agreeableness.
What exactly is low agreeableness? Agreeableness has 6 parts to it: trust, straightforwardness, altruism, compliance, modesty and tender mindedness. The items on this list reflect a person’s tendency toward intimacy, needs balancing (ones own needs vs. other’s needs) and caretaking of others; core components of ability to love. Dr. Lynam also mentioned briefly that these are more than personality traits and instead seem to reflect “an ability.” I wrote about love as a developmentally acquired “ability” in Just Like His Father? nearly three years ago, and am glad to see this given more attention by scientists.
After I commented praising Dr. Lynam’s work, another researcher stood up and said, “There’s just something about this that bothers me”¦ my gut tells me it is off”¦ If psychopaths lack agreeableness, why do other people find them attractive?”
I talked with that researcher in private afterwards. Consider Dr. Cleckley’s statement about love and psychopathy. Since psychopaths appear to have fondness and affection, their inability to love is often hidden behind their “Mask of Sanity.” It is only when you really get to know them and you put yourself in a position of depending on them that you discover the importance of their inability to love. This is where victims have wisdom and understanding that many psychopathy researchers will never attain.
For more on Dr. Lynam’s work see: Are they just evil people?
justabouthealed:
I would submit that the inability to love and the willingness to exploit are indicative that some lacks the ability to love.
End of the day, it doesn’t really matter what the problem is — these creatures are toxic for anybody who gets involved with them.
justabouthealed:
I mean to say that the willingness to exploit is indictive that someone lacks the ability to love.
hey guys, was out cruising in my car today with top down and met headon the s and his biker chick and a friend. Murphys’ law everywhere i seem to go and this town is over 50, 000 . I think it might be getting easier only thing that is hurting is the fact that he is spending more time with her than he did me but then again it’s early. He alwasy has to bring along one of his cronnies and i hated that. Hope it gets easier and i find someone that i can at least be remotely interested in. I went out with a gf last night and i tolerated the night but same old bunch of singles, depressing. Im starting to feel a little healthier and hopefully will put some weight on soon. love kh
Dear KH,
This may not be what you want to hear, but your comment about “Hope it gets easier and I find someone that I can at least be remotely interested in.” Sort of makes me wonder if you are thinking that a new “love interest” will help you get over this X-jerk creep. In my experience, that is the “cart before the jack ass”—we need to GET OVER THE CREEP FIRST and HEAL and THEN look for a new love interest. If Prince CHARMING himself came along with a glass slipper, the problem is that in the “INJURED” STATE we are in post-P, we don’t have the true energy to focus on a new relationship inorder to make it successful, because we haven’t focused on HEALING OURSELVES FIRST.
It would be wonderful if we could just find “mr. perfect” and hook up with him and live “happily ever after” but the problem is that WE aren’t able to do that, to give to a relationship what it takes it to be successful bec ause WE are the ones off kilter.
I suggest strongly that you focus on YOURSELF and don’t even think about a NEW relationship for quite some time. YOU ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT thing for you to focus on. When you HEAL YOURSELF then you will be Ms. Perfect when you do meet Mr. Perfect! (((((hugs))))))
Ox i know what you say is the truth, it s just that with so many years wasted on the s and now to be in a state where as you said Mr. Perfect could come along and i’d be well i’d be like i am, absolutely not interested in even talking to men much. Don’t find any attractive and wonder if i ever really will but i don’t want to completely give up hope of ever finding someone. I’ve decided one thing, i want one at leaast as decent as my ex husband. I havn’t got a clue what im looking for in a man anyway, im just getting older and 5.5 years without sex is really a long time but i am used to it by now. Cuddling is all i really wanted from the asshole, but he had to make me pay for the little cuddling with lies and more abuse. I did a silly thing last night, i went out with a g f to a local club (same old place with same old people) and stopped at my male friends house that i was fixed up with around time i met the s. He’s a great guy but alcoholic and involved with a ver y toxic woman, that i introduced him to. She verbally attacked me about nonsense , convinced her guya nd i were lovers (joke sa we are like bro and sister more) . This woman is alcoholic too and she just went on a rampage and for once after i initially tried to be nice offering her some clothes that didn’t fit me. Then when she started on me being old and botoxed and who knows what, i let her have it. So opposite to my normal response of letting it go over. and guess what i feel dam good. I said for one thing missy” if i had wanted Ron i would have had him long before you” . She was so vindictive, calling mymohter and alcoholic all kinds of vile things and i just laughed it off. Ron was pretty upset , told her she’s crazy but i gave it back with both guns. At one point i thought there was a chance she may hit me and i thought go right ahead. I think i needed to react the way i did and after all the times i’ve tried to be kind and decent to this wh*** i had had enough. No intimidation anymore. Before i left i made sure to tell her that she had no respect for my friend Ron at all considering he has helped support her and she should be ashamed of herself. Not an ounce of regret from me today. I could have walked away as i usually would hve but this time i thought no, im Ron’s guest , bring it on cookie. love kindheart
Dear Kindheart,
I don’t want you to think I am “down on” you right now, but you keep talking about people you know “he’s a GREAT GUY…but ALCOHOLIC and involved with a VERY TOXIC WOMAN…”
“At one point I thought she may hit me…..”
” I could have walked awayt……bring it on cookie”
KH, this is DRAMA. What do you mean about your friend Ron? He’s a great guy….DUH? What is so great about being an ALCOHOLIC ? That is like saying “He’s a good husband when he is not beating his wife!”
“I could have walked away?” WHY didn’t you? What did you accomplish by “letting her have it” and “telling her off?” DRAMA, nothing but DRAMA AND MORE DRAMA!
Kindheart, ask yourself (you don’t have to answer me, it is yourself who needs to know the answer to this question) WHY do you keep hanging around with TRASHY ALCOHOLIC and TOXIC PEOPLE and engaging in DRAMA and verbal battles with them? What do YOU get out of this?
Human beings don’t engage in behavior that doesn’t give them some kind of “pay off”—-even people who cut themselves and self harm get a pay off in endorphins being released…..there is SOMETHING you are getting out of all this drama because you keep repeating it….then you get depressed, then start to feel better and the CYCLE CONTINUES.
The healing process isn’t about engaging in more drama, it is about stopping engaging in DRAMA all together.
Remember back when the druggie was wanting a ride and you gave her one, and all the other dramas you have engaged in that have brought you back DOWN? Every time you get involved in more drama you hit bottom. Then it seems as soon as you start to feel better and things are on the upswing you engage in more of it with more of these toxic people you seem to be hanging with.
As long as I continued to hang with TOXIC people, whether they were Ps or not is beside the point, as long as I kept interacting with toxic people I was in a blue FUNK! Now that I have truly decided to step away from these people I don’t have that DRAMA in my life. I am not mad all the time, not being injured, I am FOCUSING on healing ME and they can go on with their little dramas, getting drunk or drugging or criminal acts or whatever their dramas are but I am NOT INVOLVED WITH TOXIC PEOPLE. My life is calm and peaceful. No adrenaline rushes, but PEACE and a good life with JOY.
Hun, I am NOT DOWN ON YOU, but sometimes it takes someone “viewing things from the outside” to see what we are TOO CLOSE TO THE TREES TO SEE THE FOREST. (((((hugs)))) and you are in my prayers!!!! xoxoxox Oxy
Dear KindHeart,
I don’t have the past experience with an s in a romantic relationship. BUT I do have history of knowing many toxic people. And healing after a heartbreak.
Sweetie, Oxy is right on…..Correct me if I am wrong but I thought I heard you say that you were in a 12 step program? If so, isn’t there someone in this program that you can be-friend that is getting healthy? NOT the people in the program that keep “going back out” (you don’t need their DRAMA either). But someone who is really got some sobriety and WORKING the program?
When my husband died I couldn’t deal with all these people who stayed in the NEVER ending cycles….Alcohol, drugs, abusive relationships etc……
I think I was like a MAGNET to these people…..I don’t drink, I don’t do drugs, and why these people appeared in my life wasn’t by accident…..I was evidently putting out the vibes…
I’m a nice person, tell me your problems, I’ll be there for you….WHATEVER I did I did….AND I had to STOP. I had girlfriends that went from ONE abusive guy to the next abusive guy, to yet another abusive guy….PATTERN.
The truth is these women thought they NEEDED a guy in their lives, and that is EXACTLY what they didn’t need at the time. They needed to heal. AND so DID I……
I not only didn’t want to attract the alcoholic men into my life I didn’t want to attract the “drama queen” girlfriends into my life either. And maybe that is something you want to think about as well.
At some point I had to look at MYSELF. NOT at the alcoholic, and drug addicts, and abusive people. WHAT do I need to change to NOT attract these people?
I have some great friends, they are mostly married, so I wanted some “single” girlfriends back then….But I just coudn’t deal with the never ending cycle they had going on….So for the last 10 years, I “hang” with my married friends and keep my “circle” to include healthy people, not the crazies.
Yeah…. I do often find myself on Friday and Saturday nights, to be by myself. BUT I figure it is better to be in NO relationship than to be in a toxic one.
yes you guys are right and i have been reaching out to some of my married friends as they are more balanced but also busy with children and grandchildren and last night was just a repeat of many nights where i chose to go out and endure when i prob should have stayed home and watched a movie. I will be glad when maybe i can get back on some med for adhd, this new med is not covered so i’m off of it but going to try switching to concerta. I get this crazy thinking that i’m missing something or i’d like to dress up and go somewhere but end up in the same stupid places with the same singles and i swear they all just get recylcled. I am trying to stay away from the toxic people and trust me i won’t be headed there for more of the drama but at least im not letting it get to me this time. I’ve been hurt so much , im not going to let some drunken bimbo bring me down. Seeing the s again to day with his biker babe and a friend , i feel like im being slapped in the face left and right. Nothing i can do to really avoid it other than ignore it as best i can. I’ve cut back on my AA meetings and i know that’s not good , so many sick people there , but i know i need the meetings. I’ve got my youngest coming home so that will keep me pretty occupied as he’s quite high maintenance, lots of stress but on ly temporary. I guess i backslidded last night just even going out to the bar but i get so dam bored and restless sitting home and not working gives me too much time to think. Im going to call ins. and try and get back at least a day a week. Im not looking for a relationship with a man at all, furthest thing from my mind, really. I just want my life back and my mind freee of obsessing over the s and i know i can’t make it happen overnight. Im tired of people thinking that i can just act as if nothing happened and move on . My trust with men has been affected to the point where to be honest i don’t even care to talk to them when im in the bar. So im pretty far from any relationship and this friend i went to visit although alkie and toxic , he was not a threat but too much drama with his woman. I have one drama queen gf that i’ve distanced myself from quite a bit so i have improved somewhat and i know now when people are out to use me, i feel the dependency and i don’t like the feeling. Thanks to you all for your advise and i agree with it all . love kindheart
Oxy- excellent advice you gave KH- I think its good for all of us to realize any “drama cycles” are dangerous to us and potentially could find ourselves in a repeat cycle.
KH – A friend told me once that we- as an individual, are the sumation of our 5 closest friends/contacts. We absorb rather willing or unwilling a bit of their personalities, motivation-or lack thereof,and attitudes because this is with whom we share the majority of our time. Sometimes even family members, long time friends, etc must be visited only in small doses to keep “toxic” out of our system or even deliberately removed from our circle altogether.
I constantly evaluate by this concept of “show me your friends, and I will show you who you are.” Surround yourself with motivated, up beat, spiritual and for God’s sake HEALTHY people-OR none at all.
Being at a bar, as you mentioned is not good. You get the worst of all worlds, risk drinking, and crap just happens in those places.
Renew your spirit, renew your mind- You will never get that at a bar. To “do life” in a productive,healthy way you must have your cup filled. Find friends whom you can mutually help each other accomplish this. ANYONE that can’t join you in your life goals dosen’t belong there. Take care darlin.
Dear Kindheart,
Surround your self with people that are the mirror of who you want to be. Think healthy thoughts and be with healthy people….so shall you be.
To all of us….Dare I say we are suffering from severe “love addiction”???? Could we be people who “loves too much”? we who love S seem to be. “Women who love too much” is the tittle of a great book by the way.
Love is such a powerful word….many people use it so casually that it looses it’s meaning when it should be used for a special bond between people. what is love? what is addiction to love? Love and being an addict to it when it’s with someone who is controlling, manipulating and toxic is very confusing….I am continuously exploring this myself as I get repeadedly sucked in by my X-S…whten he leaves me messages to say he “loves me like no other” and “I’m trully the only one he wants”….on and on…all the while he cheats and exploits and manipulates to get what he wants. The sick part is that on and off I fall for this insanity because I am “addicted to love” . Period. Recognize that what you are going through is an addiction and 1st and foremost you have to learn to recover from this addiction and learn to love your self again.
Low self esteem. # 1 reason we fall pray to the manipulating exploiting S. Learn to build your self esteem….I fight for mine every day.
I dont mean to get down on anybody here…only know that I suffer from the same addiction, and despite all my best effort to have NC and “learn to love myself 1st”…..the LOVE gets in the way.