This week “Sarah” commenting on Lovefraud wrote:
What is the biggest difference between Narcissists/Psychopaths/Sociopaths and us? The ability to love!
What is one of the over-riding characteristics of the N/P/S? They are they are extremely jealous & envious and must WIN! We have something they will never have . . i.e., the ability to love.
In the Mask of Sanity, the first book to describe psychopathy, Hervey Cleckley wrote:
The psychopath seldom shows anything that, if the chief facts were known, would pass even in the eyes of lay observers as object love”¦ In a sense, it is absurd to maintain that the psychopath’s incapacity for object love is absolute, that is, to say he is (in)capable of affection for another ”¦ He is plainly capable of casual fondness, of likes and dislikes, and of reactions that, one might say, cause others to matter to him. These affective reactions are, however, always strictly limited in degree. In durability they also vary greatly from what is normal in mankind. The term absolute is, I believe, appropriate if we apply it to any affective attitude strong and meaningful enough to be called love, that is, anything that prevails in sufficient degree and over sufficient periods to exert a major influence on behavior.
In my opinion, perhaps the only flaw in our current measures of “psychopathy” is their failure to assess “ability to love.” Fortunately, that may soon change thanks to Donald Lynam, Ph.D. , Professor of Clinical Psychology at Perdue University. In his presentation, Interpersonal Antagonism as the Core Feature of Psychopathy Dr. Lynam presented evidence that inability to love is at the core of psychopathy.
I have long admired Dr. Lynam’s work, and his rather renegade status in the world of psychopathy research. During his presentation, I sat next to an accomplished psychopathy researcher, who has become a friend. After Dr. Lynam finished, I offered a public thanks to him for his presentation and brought up the issue that no one else is trying to measure and assess “ability to love” in psychopaths. The researcher sitting next to me said “You can have him as your Guru if you like, but there are problems with his work.” I did not ask my friend to elaborate because I already knew why he said that.
Dr. Lynam has challenged the status quo of psychopathy research because he says, “Factor analysis of the PCL-R (the most widely used rating scale) are unlikely to reveal the core personality components of psychopathy.” His making that statement at the SSSP meetings is kind of like a minister at a meeting of Southern Baptists saying that The Bible doesn’t necessarily have all the answers for modern humans.
Dr. Lynam says (and I very much agree) that if you analyze the PCL-R to understand “the psychopath” you run into circular arguments. How do we know this person is a psychopath? Because he/she has a high PCL-R score. How do we know the PCL-R symptoms reflect the psychopathy personality type? Because they belong to “psychopaths” as identified by the PCL-R. The way to get around these circular arguments is to separate diagnostic measures from personality measures. This is what Dr. Lynam has done.
The most accepted model of general personality posits five basic traits called the Big Five (OCEAN: Openness, Conscientiousness, Extraversion, Agreeableness, Neuroticism). Dr. Lynam has studied these traits in relation to psychopathy and he has found that “low agreeableness” explains a majority of individual differences in PCL-R scores. That means that the core of psychopathy is explained by low agreeableness.
What exactly is low agreeableness? Agreeableness has 6 parts to it: trust, straightforwardness, altruism, compliance, modesty and tender mindedness. The items on this list reflect a person’s tendency toward intimacy, needs balancing (ones own needs vs. other’s needs) and caretaking of others; core components of ability to love. Dr. Lynam also mentioned briefly that these are more than personality traits and instead seem to reflect “an ability.” I wrote about love as a developmentally acquired “ability” in Just Like His Father? nearly three years ago, and am glad to see this given more attention by scientists.
After I commented praising Dr. Lynam’s work, another researcher stood up and said, “There’s just something about this that bothers me”¦ my gut tells me it is off”¦ If psychopaths lack agreeableness, why do other people find them attractive?”
I talked with that researcher in private afterwards. Consider Dr. Cleckley’s statement about love and psychopathy. Since psychopaths appear to have fondness and affection, their inability to love is often hidden behind their “Mask of Sanity.” It is only when you really get to know them and you put yourself in a position of depending on them that you discover the importance of their inability to love. This is where victims have wisdom and understanding that many psychopathy researchers will never attain.
For more on Dr. Lynam’s work see: Are they just evil people?
Tilly,
When my husband was in recovery (alcoholic) after about 2 1/2 years, he went into a dry drunk. I had never experienced a dry drunk before.
Even without knowing, I knew immediately that what was going on with him was a dry drunk. He was just exactly like he was when he was drinking BUT MINUS the alcohol. All the alcoholic behavior was back, every single bit of it. And he had every excuse in the book to withdraw from his sponser and AA meeting and his friends in the program.
One day (still during the dry drunk) he gave a very WONDERFUL, gut wrenching, speach at a fellow AA members funeral. Brought tears to grown mens eyes. He talked the talk of recovery at this mans funeral. He “moved” people. But he wasn’t walking the walk. That VERY same day of the funeral he drank……I knew it was coming…Just a matter of when.
One WEEK later he put a pistol in his mouth and took his life.
I was devistated. I didn’t see it coming. I could barely function. The first few days I could barely breath.
I didn’t WANT to take the high road. I wanted to take the LOW road. I wanted to numb the pain. For the FIRST time in my life I wanted to drink to get drunk. I wanted to do drugs. All these things I avoided all my life because my own father was alcoholic and I didn’t want to go down that “road”. But now, I didn’t want to “feel” the feelings.
I made the choice to get up out of bed every morning because I had 2 kids to raise. I didn’t drink, I didn’t do drugs, instead I felt the pain.
WITHOUT my kids I know I would have taken the low road. There would have been NO REASON not to. They were my reason to feel the pain.
Your sweet son needs you. He might not be a young child anymore but he needs you. He asked you on Mothers Day were you would go if you could go anywhere….When you asked him where he would go he answered, that he would go where ever YOU were. (mum)
Those words he said are priceless. He loves you.
You need to think of him whenever you are feeling so low. He can be your guiding light. He is your reason….
witsend:
I had never experienced a dry drunk either. I now realize that although S, after he got out of prison, was tooting his own horn about how he beat drugs, yada, yada, yada, I should have been paying more attention to other things he said.
I still remember him having a good laugh while he told me how he knew all the right “buzz words” to throw out in his group therapy sessions. And then I began to see his behavior change — the financial irresponsibility, the increasing drinking (substitution), the erratic behavior.
Towards the end I when I was trying to get a handle on our rapidly disintegrating situation I spoke with 2 different drug abuse experts. I described everything I was witnessing, starting with his early days out of prison. When they heard he wasn’t in NA, they said his early days out of prison he was clearly in a dry drunk and within a couple of months of getting out he was already back using.
I’ve thought a lot about his behavior. And now I can practically pinpoint the moment he went from dry drunk (addict) to active user. And I also realize I saw it coming. And I also realize that I never trusted him almost from the moment I met him.
Witsend, wow what a wakeup call for me. I’ve been sober for over 5 years and have wondered about the dry drunk thing. I know the compulsion to drink left me early on as i was praying like crazy but the compulsion to have contact with the s has been there , secondary addiction so the doc. in the trauma program has told me and he also said secondary addicitons become stronger and that has def been my experience. I was doing so well with the no contact and today the s drove by and the truck etc. triggered me and i called and i know i’m just fooling myself. The black and white thinking, he’s all bad or all good. People pleasing , wanting to be freinds knowing this is all just self deluding. I can’t change that i made contact but im trying so hard not to keep it alive if you can u nderstand what im saying. I feel for you with the loss of your husband as i lost my mother to alcoholism young(age 50 drank herself to death) and she was a wonderful mother, with a horrible disease. I remember the funeral director giving me a phamplet on suicide and i couldn’t even admit that it was a slow suicide, to this day i think she was in so much denial thinking it was the water making her sick. I was so guuilt ridden when she died , i drank to deal with it and repeated history only i was fortunate enough to want to sober up 5 years ago or i know i would not be here today. The disease of alcoholism is a thinking disease and if anyone thinks otherwise they are very mistaken. We have a thinking problem which leads us to drinking etc. and other addicitions. I like you have put a positive twist on my moms death, i paid the ultimate price for my seat in AA, i saw first hand how powerful the disease is. Right now it is telling me i can have contact with the s , care about him as a friend and it’s taking all i have not to let myself continue in that direction , doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results, def of insanity. Letting go of this obsession has been the hardest thing i’ve ever gone through, surpassing deaths etc. I will pray that God help me let it go because i know it is as deadly as the alcohol. lov e kindheart
Hi Kindheart..
I understand what you are saying…its a process…god will answer your prayers and you will do the work it takes to let go…when you have had enough…you will get there. Glad you have been doing well with the NC.. we all have setbacks and eventually end up back on track..keep us posted….Good to “see” you…
Witsend:
I am so sad for your loss. You are incredibly strong to go through all of that and come out the other side sane. Sorry, I have not read your story previously.
Was your husband a psychopath ? or an alcoholic ? or both?
I have had long relationships with all three types. IMHO…..(Oxy taught me those initials!)…
(I can only speak of my experience as an Australian…how it is here. I hope it is a million times better over there !).
In my experience the ordinary Psychopath is by far the worst.
Alcoholism and drug addiction are very predictable. If a person is an alcoholic only, then they are nothing like a psychopath, even on a dry drunk. They have the ability to empathize in the extreme. And whilst they are selfish and self centered and childish they are not control freaks who insidiously go out purposely to destroy anyone they feel jealous of or who happens to be in their way or who is a target for.. whatever reason. The active alcoholics and addicts primary purpose is to get to the “feel good” part of a drunk/drug. Which is virtually impossible, given their compulsion. They pick up, become violent or pathetic and then fall down . A dry drunk on the other hand is short tempered, restless, irritable, discontent and self centered in the extreme, but they are very aware of whats right and wrong, of their feelings and other’s feelings, of whats going on around them and they have a moral consiousness and an insight to a Higher Power.
When a recovering alcoholic or drug addict sees that they can’t stay sober or “clean” they may suicide rather than live in the hell of active addiction or the life of a practising alcoholic. But it is MORE likely here in Aus. that they are experiencing a mental breakdown that is due to more than just their active addiction/alcoholism. Usually they go over the edge because of a combination of life stressors. e.g. Loss of job, marriage, death of friend, loss of health, freedom, status, money, identity, power etc . One of these, coupled with their knowledge of what lies ahead in their struggle with their drug of choice is just too much and so they take the “easy” way out. It is also a very selfish way out, (poor me), but in the mental state they are in, it cannot be viewed as selfish. As they are temporarily INSANE at the time.
Psychopaths, that do not have an addiction, generally, do not commit suicide.
An alcoholic psychopath is not as dangerous as an addict psycopath. And neither of them are as dangerous as a psychopath with no active addiction whatsoever.
Alcoholics go into blackout and are very sick the next day and their drug is legal.
Addicts generally, do not go into blackout half as much, can use other drugs to counteract the last one (drugs that can give them extra power in physical strength) AND their drug is illegal.
Ordinary psychopaths are in total control and are NOT at the MERCY of their drug of choice.
N.B. IN Australia, the rooms of AA and NA are full of ordinary psychopaths pretending to be alcoholics and addicts. It is common knowledge and a joke. So many people pretending to be alcoholic to use women or men or get money or control,is a sorrowful sight.
They are there, not only for narcissitic supply, (drunkalogs or stories bragging of their “exciting” life on drugs), but also to prey on the vulnerable, needy, sick (mentally and physically), weaker species. AA and NA are the perfect haven for psychopaths who have no addiction. It is here they can have their pick of the “deer with a limp”.
Often the person in the chair, or the secretary,waving their arms in control, picking people, and even the most “humble – righteous” person in these rooms is just the best actor out of a bunch of hams. Often the treasurer is a psychopath stealing money from AA and they refuse to give up their “service work”or hand over their role in AA.
It doesn’t take long to see that these rooms are a trap for every shady character/con man you can find.
Occasionally you will find a handful of people who are really addicts or alcoholics practicing the 12 steps to the best of their ability. But only occasionally.
Like I said earlier, there are 60 meetings of AA and NA, each, on the GOLD COAST alone. In these rooms, its easy to stay out of the sun, because their are so many shady characters.
i.e. SO MANY PSYCHOPATHS preying on the weak.
I strongly advise to stay well away from these places unless you know what I am talking about and are able to survive
Matt,
A dry drunk is a very good indicator that the addict is going to be actively using again.
What was so hard to understand (for me) was that everything reverted back to the person being exactly as they were when they used alcohol/drugs BEFORE the usage actually began. It was so strange to see the old behavior back before the actual drug of choice enterd the body. The relapse was already in motion.
The one thing I did learn by being surrounded by recovering addicts in the program is that “humility” is the key. When you hear someone in recovery telling you that they will NEVER drink or use drugs again….That is a pretty complacent place for an addict. Not a good place to be. An addict is powerless over their addictions. And will remain so regardless of “years” spent in sobriety. Admitting being powerless is the healthy attitude for an addict.
So when you say what you witnessed with your x all the signs were there. It was just a matter of “when” it was going to happen.
Matt:
I have never had a dry drunk, but I did have the dry heaves.:)
Tilly,
I can not say that my husband was S/P. He was a highly dis- functiontional alcoholic. My father had been a functional alcoholic.
My husband was adopted (at 2 yrs old) and I wish that I knew more about his family of origin because of what I am going through with my son. I can’t determine the genetic factor if my son is predisposed genetically for personality disorder.
My husbands adopted mother though very well could be an N. If she isn’t she is what I would say is a “close call”.
She couldn’t have children and adopted late in life. She is one of those people that should have NEVER had children. She was very abusive, controlling and manipulative. She inflicted cruelty when she was raising her child on a daily basis. Consequently my husband did start drinking at a very early age. His biological parents were pretty messed up but it is uncertain (to me anyways) if he might have been better off being raised by them.
I agree with you that AA can be a dumping grounds for shady characters/con men & also court “appointed” people that the judge doesn’t know where else to “place” into the system. Living in a very small town, the local AA group, has its share.
I have to say though that our local AA meetings has alot of scheduled “open” meetings that invites family & friends of addicts to come to the meetings as well. I learned ALOT at these open meetings. And my husband has been dead for 12 years so even though I haven’t gone for a long time, much of what I learned there has “stuck”. AA basic principles can be useful for many issues other than addictions.
Alot of what I learned is still helping me to this day in dealing with my son and what is going on here even though what we are dealing with is a completely different issue.
You are also right on about addictive behavior being pretty predictable. Once you “get it”, the addict is very predictable. And so even though an addict can be violent or toxic in your own life there isn’t ALWAYS the element of surprise. Once you understand what drives them.
However I do believe that some people become very dangerous when you add alcohol. Especially as the addiction/disease progresses. And I would say that if you have a P/S that is also an alcoholic/addict that danger level would be even higher.
Witsend:
A lot of people in prison say that ” they cannot remember killing/raping the person because they were in a blackout”. It is a common defense here in Oz. Especially among sports stars who rape women.
It is easy to pick a REAL alcoholic or addict if you are one. i.e. whether they are in recovery or practising/active or not.
It is extremely difficult to pick a psychopath. Especially, if they have been in the rooms of aa or NA long enough. They are professional at using people, talking the talk and saying all the right things and appearing humble, spiritual, charming, gentle and witty.
My ex p dentist knew he was an alcoholic but had no desire to stop drinking. Why would he?? He had enablers everywhere and his professional fraudulance and mask was/is brilliant. I have never seen anything like it! He was not in denial, but rather he didn’t see being an alcoholic as a problem. He always got his way because he lied and was a step ahead.
However the alcoholic psychopath IS vulnerable when he is in a blackout because he is not conscious of what he is doing. He is also vulnerable when he is hung over/sick because he can’t look after himself and is confined to bed.
The ordinary psychopath is never vulnerable. They are by far the most dangerous.
Of course you can’t generalise about this mental illness. Most alcoholics go through periods of being violent when they are drunk. Luckily they are not usually physically strong. But it is very ifferent with a drug addict. Violence usually can and does happen and their strength can be terrifying.
P.S. From what I have seen of alanon it is brilliant and teaches you to weed out the real from the fantasy.