By | August 28, 2014 159 Comments

Struggling with no contact?

No contact is of the utmost importance when it comes to recovering from any unhealthy relationship.  Why, then, can it be so hard to maintain?  How is it that we can do so well for long stretches and then become instant Jell-O with seemingly little warning?

Of the myriad of struggles we may experience during recovery, this seems to be one of the most common snags.  The cold reality is that we are going through withdrawal and there is no methadone to ease the pain of this addiction.  Making matters worse, each and every time we break it, the clock starts over, feeling worse than we did previously.

However, from experience, I know that we do get to the point where we truly do not care to emotionally interact with our past counterparts.  We also genuinely get to the point where their attempts yield little or no emotional response from us.  At the same time, I also know that the road to that place can be quite long and challenging.

Recently, I realized that another interesting snafu exists regarding the no contact rule: successful implementation with one individual often does not automatically carry over into other relationships where the same is necessary.  Yes, we may pay better attention to various red flags and recognize certain behaviors and know what must be done, but that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily smooth sailing.  However, with diligence, we can do it.

How can we fight the urge to talk, text, or write?

1.  Examine the feelings causing the need to want contact

Other than in cases where we were so deeply involved that we became “addicted” to our pathological other halves, fear and old habits are two very common reasons we consider re-connecting with our pasts.

Believe it or not, one of my past no contact struggles was prompted by a dinner conversation with someone I had known much of my adult life.  Over steak and a Stella (Artois) the nicest man in the world (not a psychopath) revealed that he was interested in a relationship with me.  Instantly, the twinge from within took over.  “Me?” I asked  in a shocked, surprised, and probably fairly horrified voice.  “Yes, you.  You are beautiful, smart, and strong.  What guy wouldn’t want that?”

From there it got fuzzy.  I began to sweat profusely and my head began to spin.  However, once I got past the shock, I mentally reviewed my past relationship life.  The sad fact was that I didn’t think I could be attracted to a “nice” guy (an issue for another article, which, by the way, I now have totally figured out, at least in theory, even if not in practice.)

So, what did I want?  Why did a nice person make me long to reconnect with someone I have absolutely no business being with?  Much like a dieter looking for a cheeseburger, I wanted to travel back in time to something that felt more comfortable; I longed for an unhealthy relationship where I could give, give, and give some more, while only receiving small amounts of reciprocity along the way.

Being a “fixer,” giving more than I get comes naturally, but it shouldn’t and fear of the unknown and desire for familiarity should not be the driving force behind contact, especially when the outcome would not yield satisfying results.  Thus, just because it’s comfortable, doesn’t mean we should return to it.

I resisted.

2.  Examine what happened after the previous communications….and there probably were previous communications

It is likely that prior attempts did not work or we wouldn’t be here.  No good can come of making contact with someone who either does not want it with us, is just not that into us, or is pathological.  Therefore, we must examine our motives.  What do we hope to achieve from our communication?  Unless the answer is more heartache or irritation, which will send us reeling and feeling terrible, we should not do it.

How many times have we poured our hearts out and offered explanations for things not working if we wanted to make peace with an ex or ex-interest?  How many times have we tried to explain “just one more time,” for some semblance of closure?

We are famous for owning everything; the things we should take responsibility for, as well as those we should absolutely not!  They know this.  It takes most of us concerted efforts to stop that…and we should stop it.  Although counterintuitive, it will bring us to a better emotional place, as we take control of our own peace.

When I thought about all of this, I resisted.

3.  Review “old material.”

Most of our counterparts assume we have short memories.  In some ways we do, but not always.  For most of us, it is in our nature to try to see the good in others and forgive.  Many of us have also endured such extreme trauma that we block quite a bit out.  However, for those of us who are savers of correspondence, it helps to resurrect what we have.  It’s like relationship Soduko.

When last I felt  weak over a past connection, I wanted to text to say something…anything, exactly what I didn’t know.  I spent the better part of two hours talking myself out of doing so.  While my heart and rational brain dueled like two pianos in a night club, I pulled up his name in my phone.  Fortunately, I am not one to delete much, so I scrolled to the last break-up conversation (there are a few) and read what he had written.  Needless to say, I put the phone down.  There would be no text from me.

I decided that I did not really care for how he spoke to me in those texts.  I re-visited the feelings the silent treatment that followed evoked.  There was a time when I minimized the words, but not at that moment.  The words were mean and I felt empty.  I did not care that my reactions to them were not perfect (they were not.)  I was able to re-live the experiences in my mind and chose me and my well being.

Likewise, years ago, I felt I needed reassurance that my decision to enlist no emotional contact with another individual was warranted.  While years of experience should have been enough, the volumes of past e-mail and the journals I kept were what really told the tale.  “Normal” was not part of the equation.  The pathology in that correspondence was like graffiti on a wall and the ability to see the big picture, a written gift.

With that, I continued to resist.

4.  Examine the situation objectively

What would you tell your girlfriend to do if she came to you for advice, assuming the tables were turned?  If the answer is run, resist contact.

This goes hand in hand with using old material.  We can pull from past conversations and experiences, re-examining the negative feelings those situations created, and acknowledging the red flags we noticed throughout our relationships.  We should try to trust in our initial reactions to them.  If we felt hurt before, they will hurt again once re-opened.  It helps to step outside ourselves and recognize our own worth and beauty, just as we would a friend’s.

When I thought about how I’d counsel my bestie, I resisted.

5.  Give it time

Sit on your desire to initiate contact for at least one week or some other extended period of time.  It’s a good idea to use this time to think about all of the potential consequences.  The wait will probably be worth it.

Isn’t this difficult?  Trust me when I tell you, this goes against every fiber of my being, but the wait time will clear us for the option and allow us to choose what’s best for us, which is probably resisting.

What about when they dangle the carrot and casually contact us first?

Resist.  Truly.  Resist.  Depending upon the circumstances, we may or may not choose to respond.  Just as we did above, when we were thinking about initiating contact, we must ask ourselves what we hope to achieve by answering them, as well as what the consequences could be for either.  If it is a communication that does not require a response or would send us backwards, we should let it go.  If we choose to respond, keep it short and unemotional.  If we cared or care more than they do, we are the ones at risk for becoming emotionally entangled again.

There is always the possibility that the contact may be legitimate, unless, of course, the person truly is pathological, which may or may not be the case.  Regardless, if they tell us they are thinking about us or they miss us, they may.  We may actually be on their minds.  Truthfully, however, it probably means nothing near what we tend to turn it into.

Typically, when they make contact, they are merely “fishing” to check in on our emotional states.  Our reactions act as barometers.  Therefore, we should guard what we give back.  We may truly no longer care, we may be full-on acting, or we may legitimately be somewhere in the middle.  But that’s ours to know.

What do we want for the long haul?

So…we had a bad experience or two.  That’s ok.  What matters is that we part with a clearer picture of what we see for our futures.  How do we want to feel and what are we willing to tolerate?  No contact helps us stay the course.

While various things will undoubtedly wreak havoc with our desire to maintain no contact, understanding the roots of our struggles and using our tools can be incredibly helpful.  Be strong, friends, and if you falter, know that it’s ok to re-set the clock, but also allow yourself extra care while dealing with the challenges that go hand in hand with that re-set.

Above all else, know that the day will come when the urge to re-connect will disappear for good.  If the need repeats itself with another individual, use what you know as empowerment.  If we were successful once, we can be successful again.  Always learning, always improving.

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Brilliant – thank you ! I am printing this out and posting it where I can see it everyday.

Linda – a great message! Thank you.


This post could not have come at a better time – especially the part about how just because no contact is easy with one person, it doesn’t mean it will be easy with the next one. I am struggling not to email a guy who keeps popping up in my life like a whack-a-mole every so often. He disappeared for 3 months after we started connecting last winter. His excuse was that a friend of his was murdered and he crawled into a shell for 3 months. As soon as I opened the door for him again, he begged to see me. We had one date and barring a few flirtatious emails, he disappeared again for 3-4 weeks! Just like you said, Linda, I keep asking if it’s anything I’m doing wrong – if I’m too guarded, too depressed, giving out the wrong signals, etc. But bottom line is I made it very clear this time around that he would have to work hard to rebuild the trust.

Instead of working hard to rebuild my trust, he has gone off to music festivals, hung out at bars a lot and just been too busy. If I send him an email, he will respond and test the waters to see if I want to sleep with him. But he will not ask me on a date, which is what I want. He has thrown me a crumb or two. And yet, the pain of addiction is excruciating. I dreamt last night that some friends and I were in his house. He left us there while he went out partying. I went to look for signs in his bedroom of another woman. I didn’t have to look far. Lingerie was all over the top of the dresser. This is extremely painful for me. And it’s very very familiar. He last emailed me several days ago telling me about his fun day, but didn’t ask me out. I have been fighting the urge to write him back. The attraction I feel – and have felt – for him is very very strong. I did feel at one time that we could have had something really powerful. He expressed that he felt it too. So I don’t know what happens with him. I believe he is a narcissist. But my heart does not want to believe it.

Thanks for the reminder to stay no contact. I know I will get this pain out of me soon enough, and then I’ll be ready to open my heart again. I refuse to let these whack-a-moles break me. I know what I want and deserve. I just notice that I do not seem to get attracted to the nice ones. Maybe if there was a nice one who was very interesting and not too needy….


Am sorry to share that my ex did that to me. He’d call and tell me about an activity he did. I found out he was with another women. I told my husband to not tell me about his “dates”. He lied and said he wasn’t with anyone. That’s when I knew, he got some kind of “WIN”, a feeling of “getting one over on me” by describing his good time with the wife who separated from him because of his unfaithfulness.

Once someone crosses the line into showing disrespect for you, they don’t go back.

ps “Nice” guys are needy, usually have mommy issues.
Instead, look for an emotionally healthy guy. He’ll be the one who is considerate, not looking for sex but looking to get to know you, is financially secure, and is physically healthy, with good moral character. He’ll be the one who is not looking to “hook up” but is seeking a woman who wants to get to know him, is financially secure, and physically healthy, with good moral character.


Dear Not,

I forgot to mention that his email was in response to one I’d sent him. He has asked me what I was doing for the weekend. Since he had given me NO notice, I just told him I had a lot of fun plans, because I did. I also told him about a famous Colorado singer (who happens to be a friend of mine) who was hosting karaoke night on Sunday night. He had expressed interest in the past because he’d sung with her once. I didn’t “invite” him. I just let him know it was happening. After the fact, I sent him some pictures of me and her singing, just very casually. I called the email “The fun you missed” and it was sent in a playful spirit. That’s when he wrote back immediately and said “next time” and that he’d played 57 round of golf that and then watched a good movie with “friends”. I’m sure “friends” were a woman, not that it even matters. He asked if I’d seen the movie, to which I have not responded. Fighting the urge to reply and start the cat-and-mouse game all over. But I won’t.

I hate it when I get into playing games with guys and second guessing myself. I know he is just not interested. I just wish he’d quit playing with me and just go away. We are both WAY too old for these games.

I have a date next weekend with a very interesting guy who is really fun to talk to, has 3 degrees in Engineering, has lived in Africa, traveled all over the world, is Buddhist like me, and is very down to earth. Naturally, I don’t feel any physical attraction yet, but who knows.


The thing that makes this especially heartbreaking is that every time he has come into my life, he has emphatically pushed through my defenses to get a date with me, insisting he is interested. Then after the date, he becomes scarce. Except he puts out “feelers” to see if I want to play Scrabble. Playing Scrabble for us is a code word for making out because every time we play Scrabble, we end up on the couch. At least that’s what happened last winter. I have not allowed it this time. Too bad, he is the only person who can beat me at Scrabble. Thankfully, I have never slept with him. But the chemistry is just SO strong. It’s hard to stop thinking about him. I actually wish I HAD slept with him. At least I could have that good memory for all the heartbreak. I can’t imagine I would hurt any worse if I had.

Where I become weak (and this is my fatal flaw) is I start blaming myself – I know everyone here has done that. I start thinking I was too guarded or not interesting enough to hold his attention. Or that I play too many games (in response to his). Really, I’m just guarding myself waiting for him to reach out. But he doesn’t. I think he likes to be chased, and I think he will only go out of his way if he thinks sex will be involved. He is one of those musicians who probably has women throwing themselves at him so this is what he is used to. I’m so mad at myself for falling for this loser.


Your post brought to mind the book “Dance of Intimacy”. You weren’t salsa dancing, you were in a “Tango with Gumby”. He was a contortionist, bending so he’d never connect. (nuttin wrong with a good time as long as both know that’s all it’s ever going to be but if one person wants a relationship and the other is just hooking up, both need to take a pass.)

Even though none of us have met, I tend to feel protective of people on lf. The guy was no good enough for you in the way that matters. And since you felt a strong pull, you needed to be NC from him for your own emotional health.

This next guy sounds like he has possibilities. He’s certainly had an interesting life. I am cautious about 3 engineering degrees. Engineers are very left brain.

ps My wise therapist? Told me that when chemistry for another is extremely strong, that’s an indicator of an unhealed motional wound, not a soul connection.


Dear Not,

I think you are completely right, and your therapist, too. Thanks so much for your response. It’s just what I need to hear. I am in touch with the pain of this rejection very acutely. I am processing it a little at a time. I keep meaning to read a book that an old poster recommended to me – Games People Play by Eric Berne (I think that’s his name). I believe this guy I am hung up on is a narcissist. Usually with someone like this, when you start to get close is when they distance themselves. He seems to only pursue me when I dump him permanently. I think he figures if he just disappears, he still has me on the line and can reel me in periodically for an ego boost or a possible booty call. If I can just see it really clearly and not go into denial, I’ll be okay. But ANY time I have contact with him I get reeled in.

Wow, I really need to heal this pattern. One after the other like this. Fortunately, they are not sociopaths. And fortunately, I have not slept with any of them. But dang – one right after the other. I am going out dancing tonight for the first time in a long time. And I have a giant beach party with a bunch of strangers tomorrow. I am putting myself back out there just to have some fun and socialize after being reclusive for a few months. Thank God for my salsa dance classes – my teacher and our students – they give me so much joy and give me a reason to get out of bed and get dressed in the morning. I’ve been struggling with so much pain lately. But I’ll get through it. It’s just a long, slow process for some of us. 🙁

I appreciate you and everyone else here for giving me the needed support. It has been a while since I have felt safe enough to ask advice here. In past days, it hasn’t gone very well.


I had a very big victory that I want to share here. Last night I went out to the salsa club and had a blast for 2-1/2 hours. I have rarely gone out social dancing in a year because of the drama I went through with my old salsa flame (who never returned my feelings) and my best salsa girlfriend who stepped up and became his most regular dance partner after I went no contact with the guy. It hurt so bad, I almost dropped out of salsa. I’m happy to report I’m back on the scene. He was there last night. He NEVER goes to this venue in a different town an hour away from both of us, but he was there. It was a great test of my presence. Though I noticed him and felt a little nostalgic, it did not trigger me at all. In fact, I think he was there with someone. I ignored him and had the time of my life, and he ignored me. I found myself thinking it was HIS loss – he current dance partner is nothing to look at and no great dancer. And neither is he. It is truly HIS loss that he played with my feelings and lost me as a dance partner and as a friend.

But the biggest surprise was that this morning I woke up and felt grateful for the year I got to dance with him. He made me the dancer I am today. But I don’t need him anymore, and I don’t miss dancing with him anymore. The magic I felt with him isn’t because he’s any better of a dancer than anyone else. It was because of the romance we had – all the chemistry. Without that, he’s not any better than anyone else to dance with.

As for the other guy – this recent guy, I forgot all about him last night, too. I am still in pain but I have a handle on it. The drama is now contained within me, and I will get through it. All of these unavailable men….I just had to go through this pain. It’s not about them – it’s about me. This is MY lesson to learn.


Iam so sad…. just reaching out.


what are you sad about kittylover?


thank you for Asking… notwhathesaid…

I allowed him back. it has ended in the worst way… with my looking bad now. this was a very sick man. How can I tell you guys my story… like a new thread……i need love and support. please.
bless you all.


Hi Kittylover, (((HUGS))) to you! Not sure how you create a new thread but you can post your story here on this post if you like.

Sociopaths are masters at getting you to take them back then they twist everything around, discard you and make you look like the crazy person when the truth is they are the crazy person and like you stated they are very sick people. So please dont take the blame for what HE did to you and dont worry about what others think of you as they are just being conned by this sociopaths too and one day they too will get discard and made to look like the “crazy one”. It’s the cycle of sociopathic abuse this is why the sociopath is always looking for new supply they know they can not keep their mask on for long.

I can promise you when you follow the no contact rule and you educate yourself on sociopath behavior/mind games and how they abuse their victims you are able to open up your mind from all the brain fog from and once you have time away from his controlling brain washing and mind control you will NEVER go back to him again. It’s the only true way of setting yourself free from them.

Look at take the quiz/see symptoms list/read, and….all the stress you have been under your adrenal glands are most likely fatigue causing issues with how you handle stress, thinking, and dealing with your emotions. This is one of the missing links to healing from a sociopathic abusive relationship.

You have so much support here, you are not alone!


oh my God. thank you sooooooo much.


Hi kittylover (I love kitties too BTW though mine have all passed. 🙁

I know the internet is not a substitute for a real life support network, but this is a place of healing, and we do care. I have actually thought about this – whether I can love people more in real life than I can over the internet. I can’t speak for others. But my heart does not know the difference. I tear up when I read people’s stories, and I reach out in words as if the posters were real life friends. I think you will find a lot of love and caring here. Though it is not a substitute for the love and care you need to give to yourself, we are here for you as long as you need us, though we don’t all come around frequently. I myself sometimes am offline for weeks. This site has been a lifeline for many in times of need because not everyone understands how dangerous a sociopath is.

Your psychopath sounds like a scary one. I’m so sorry the other woman betrayed you. I probably would have called her too. She is probably in his evil clutches and being manipulated by him, just as you are. To answer your question about why you still want him – aside from all the chemicals that are released in your body when you bond with someone, you are not completely out of denial about what he is. It’s very difficult to wrap your head around it. But once you see very clearly what he is without a doubt, it will be easier for you to stay away. The longing and obsessing has an element of denial – that you want to believe he is the loving caring person he has shown you at times. It is almost like the bargaining phase of grieving. You are asking yourself why and what if. Here is my answer for that. Even if deep down inside, he was Christ reincarnated, would you want to give a man another chance who has treated you like this? You deserve better. Much better. So take out your inner machete (we all have one) and cut ties with him. Your emotions will eventually follow.




Regardless of the topic, I felt that I had to share this. But then, according to these questions, I’m a narcissist! I just love to take control, talk a lot, draw attention to myself, blah blah blah. . . . But read the last line. It’ll blow your mind.

And yes, I struggle with “no contact” on my sister, every day. Every. Single. Day. With every self-help book I read, every comment by a life coach, every spiritual meeting I attend — because I’m not “being” that person I strive to be. That’s the cruelty of “no contact”: It flies in the face of every ethical, transparent, honest mode of communication we hold ourselves accountable to. Why, indeed, if we are strong, should we fear the spath, or the narcissist, or the borderline personality?

Answer: Because that’s just the space in which we will not only attract flies like them but fall for their tricks.

Scary. If you agree to be held accountable for anything in your interactions with others, then you are “road kill.” That’s the hook. That’s where they get you.

To be loving, open, and in awe of another person’s high personal development — is to be disappointed. At what point does a person just shut down and refuse to trust anyone?

I question every, single, one, of, my, connections. Don’t you?

Or . . . as the “quiz” above demonstrates, reality gets turned upside-down. Which one is the narcissist? The one who admits they have some narcissistic traits . . . or the one who honestly believes they have none? It’s a hall of mirrors.


I have a response from reading your post, before I even look at the link:

I have to laugh. Not in a bad way, but because of recognizing something obvious in others that applies to me… but it’s that something that I don’t recognize until I see it from some elses perspective:

omg. do people say that anymore? too cliché? okay, let me go back to my old standard. oh SHI…..!!! There’s that enormous self responsibility standard! The one where we almost always take too much responsibility. We even LOOK for where we don’t take enough responsibility and attempt to grab even more! We are SO hyper responsible!

(aside: does this come from being blamed as a kid for what others do? a powerless kid who is scapegoated for the behaviors of others? Or even blamed for what they themselves can not possibly have control of?)

It IS upside down. Especially when you realize that narcissists don’t question their own accountability. That’s why they think they have NO narcissism!

And in our determination to be VIGILENTLY self responsible, we forget what is NORMAL.

NORMAL people have HEALTHY narcissism. NORMAL people LIE! yep! They do! NORMAL people manipulate! That’s NORMAL. (My therapist is my jewel, she tells me the obvious. We had a convo about what’s normal. She said, forget the words and focus on the act…what’s the purpose? If a person is trying to destroy another, then it’s bad. If you’re stealing from another or destroy another, then that answers if you are narcissist or disordered or a bad bad person.)

The answer to your question is EASY. By the very fact that you question and are willing to adjust your behavior to be a more aware, more considerate, more conscious, MORE SELF-RESPONSIBLE person…. the obvious becomes more obvious. You are not disordered. You do NOT have NPD.

You are the kind of person we need in this world, to keep us from turning civilization into plunder and pillaging all-for-me chaos. You are the civilizing influence that makes it possible for have quality of life in this world.

I can see this in others…. why can’t I see these truths about myself! Is it because there’s something wrong with me? HA! No… I have learned, it’s because I THINK if I am responsible, then it follows that I have control and can change it and fix it, make it all better. But the fact is… IF…I, you, we DON’T have control… we are NOT responsible! So stop trying to be responsible just because somebody says you are! Others have their own agenda, and it’s not always a nice one!

What we are responsible for is protecting the sacredness of our souls, of our spirits. And if another assaults our inner selves, then we are called to keep them at bay, to put boundries on them. Boundries are determined by what it takes for the transgressers to not harm our inner spirits. For some people, just saying No is enough. For the narcissists and disordered, they will not abide by the boundry and then we are called to make the boundry more solid, what ever it takes..whether distance, or complete NC.

The boundry against those who would not let you BE YOURSELF, is how you free yourself to BE YOURSELF.

Hope my words are not too confusing. I set aside my Sundays for spiritual nurturing, self-reflection, and communion with my GOD.


Also interesting what you say about “responsibility” meaning a mistaken responsibility to “make it all better.” Good point that I don’t always get. But thinking more deeply about how to overcome that — there might be a perhaps different definition of making it all better. I make it better when I assert my own self — my offensive, smelly, rude, insensitive, never-going-to-get-what-she-wants-because-she’s-doing-it-all-wrong self.

Maybe the next step in evolution is for a critical mass of people to “do it all wrong.” To look like fools. To say something absolutely, in-your-face disgusting to someone because we just want to. Would that be so bad?

My last stupid full-time job was working at a Wall Street outfit notorious for its passive-aggressive nonsense, both internally and externally. It literally brought the whole world economy down. I begged at one point to be moved to the 33rd floor, just to get away from the jerks. When I got there, I didn’t exactly escape all the jerks, but . . . but! . . . I landed within earshot of an elderly, about-to-retire woman named Estelle. Every other word out of Estelle’s mouth was about four letters long and very, very loud. And I loved it! I used to shout things over the cubicle wall like, “Tell us what you really think, Estelle.”

What if we were all like Estelle? Would the world really turn into a mean and nasty place? Or isn’t the way it is, mean and nasty enough for you?


Dear NotWhatHeSaidofMe,

Thank you for your eloquent response to the previous comments from sistersister!

I have been struggling with a relationship with a psychopath, to be honest, from pretty much when we first got together. I’ve made repeated attempts at freeing myself from this toxic man, but always came back to a place where I would see him and go through all the dramas once again.

I’ve spent a lot of time over the past 2 years discussing, meditating, thinking and writing, and still always came back to the same place. I knew deep down that it just wasn’t going to work, regardless of the laughs, good sex and fun. But hadn’t worked out the deeper reason for holding on…until I understood he’s a miserable psychopath and I thought it was my ’job’ to make him a happier person! Thank you LoveFraud!!!

But far from being passive and accepting of their bad behaviour I would ’discuss’ it…point out what I felt was wrong (eg their pathological lying and drug/alcohol use). But these ’conversations’ were always one-way…I never got a response. At first I thought it was because of their poor social and communication skills after years in prison, but it wasn’t…they just never felt they were wrong…ever. These silences would eventually drive me into a rage and I would swear and be verbally abusive. I felt disgusted with myself for this behaviour and struggled with it.

I consider myself a spiritual person, and to act in this way was abhorrent to me. But it would happen again and again. He always ’forgave’ me, saying how much he loved me… but I realise now it was never about forgiveness or love. It was about him holding on to the many benefits of being with me, and at every opportunity he would tell me, months later, about how ’hurt’ he had been etc. But he never expressed that at the time. I’m not saying he didn’t have love for me (he probably still does), but this love was centred on his feelings. How I felt was actually irrelevant to him. In fact he told me that he decided whether a concern I had was valid…which is why there was silence from him when I was upset. I found this extremely hurtful last year…now I just think-what a cheek!

So the concern for me was my own behaviour. I learnt very quickly that you cannot change others, only yourself and that is what I set about doing. I have worked hard to develop a level of spirituality that does not ‘allow’ me to be so angry, so aggressive. It is not my nature…and only ever happened when I was with him. In some ways I think there is/was too much ’water under the bridge’ for me to ever forgive his behaviour last year when he bit my chest (scarred for life) and destroyed 12 items of irreplaceable clothing. I even found another cut in a jacket today (almost a year later)! I have accepted that I will probably never forgive. I’m happy with that. I was brought up to forgive…but I think some things are unforgiveable and only I can decide.
So the reason I am writing in response to your post is your words:
” What we are responsible for is protecting the sacredness of our souls, of our spirits. And if another assaults our inner selves, then we are called to keep them at bay, to put boundries on them. Boundries are determined by what it takes for the transgressers to not harm our inner spirits..”

Thank you for putting it so beautifully. This will be my mantra for the rest of my life.

‘I must protect the sacredness of my soul. No transgressor will harm my inner spirit’.

This is what I now realise I have been ’fighting’ for/with all this time.
Thank you.


Sistersister, replying to your earlier post….this was very interesting.

I recall about 5 years ago when I finally saw my own narcissism. It was very disappointing to say the least. But in a way it was freeing. I felt like I had owned a piece of myself that I was afraid to look at before. Even though it was a very normal response to growing up with narcissistic parents, it still hurt my pride to see it. But I didn’t die when I saw it. In fact, it made me more whole, more human, more connected with others. I could talk about this set of defenses (that’s all it is really) instead of acting it out. Other people (normal people – not the disordered) can relate to your admission of weaknesses more than trying to deal with your defenses. They may not have the same weaknesses, but they have their own. This puts us all on a level playing field. I used to always feel like I was different, a loner, more screwed up than everyone. Now I can say, “Here is what happened to me, and here is how I responded to it. Here is my story.” Just as valuable and valid as anyone else’s story. There is no harm in discovering you have some very ugly traits. We all have a shadow side. By definition, the shadow is the part of us that we can’t see. It’s in the shadows so to speak. The more of our shadow side we can own, the more complete and whole we will be. However, the same is true for our beautiful, brightly shining sides. We get to own those, too. I know for myself I can be sensitive, self-centered, demanding, impatient, indifferent, even sociopathic at times. I can also be extremely wise and compassionate, kind, caring, loyal, and non-judgmental. Can I love myself with ALL of these things? I hope so!

Whatever my sister’s defenses are – attachment disorder, borderline, narcissist….I do not know. I know that she projects a lot of negative things onto me and does not see my inner beauty. This is because she cannot see her own. Though I don’t take it personally, I have also learned to love her from a distance. That means I do not share much personal information with her unless necessary. I still love her and always will. But we may never speak again. We have not seen each other in over 30 years. It is not my job to heal her or to take abuse from her as part of her recovery. And it hurts. But……

One of the things I’ve found that in having no biological family, I’m free to have the whole world as my family. I tend to reach other to people more. When I meet people for the first time, I behave as though they are my family. The funny thing is that I do feel like many of these people have risen to the occasion, depending on their degree of emotional availability and their choices and preferences. And the ones who project onto me and don’t see who I am……I just distance myself and put my energy elsewhere.

Here is a great metaphor I once heard from a friend of mine. He is a salsa dance partner who is a bit older than me and very wise. He is a very emotionally open person. I can tell when I dance with him, and this is why I feel so free and joyful when we dance together. He told me that when he dances with different women, he can tell how emotionally available they are. The way he describes it is he can tell where they “get off the bus”. Obviously, he seeks people who will ride the bus the entire distance with him. Not everyone can do that. People “get off the bus” at different places. I’m learning to see where people “get off the bus” in my own life and not to take it personally.


Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Yes. . . . Somewhat confusing, but I get the point. If we have any sense of accountability at all, if we are responsible at all, we see honestly that we have some narcissistic traits. And we say, f– you, I’m a self-respecting, imperfect person, and that’s perfect. Exactly what this “quiz” is saying. We have, horror-of-horrors, an “ego.” It even causes us to see ourselves in a mirror and like what we see sometimes. So sue us.

The scary part for me is, the upside-down-ness of the whole thing has become so accepted in this culture that the true narcissists not only parade around as non-narcissists (hence answering “no” to the whole list of narcissistic traits in the quiz), but they infiltrate churches, spiritual organizations, “healing” professions (which I actually think are legitimate), and say things like, “This is constructive criticism, for your own good.” So that even being that person who takes constructive criticism means you’re target practice for these goons. They sound so convincing, having, of course, mastered their own “egos” and “narcissism.” The anti-narcissism movement has become a haven for secret narcissists!

I’ve come to say, point-blank, “Up Yours.” I’m really not a nice person anymore. Seriously, a bitch. And, in some circles, a celebrity. (So sue me: I’m a Narcissistic Famous Person, in the age of everybody’s Internet-mediated “15 minutes of fame.”) Ironically, I got to be this admired person (an egotist!) by just calling b.s. on everybody who works this crap. It only brings on more anguished cries, of course, more deep analysis of just what’s wrong with me.

Screw ’em.


Oh, I love my sociopath so much. Then I tell myself: I love what I *thought* he was. I review old material. I tell myself to wait a little before contacting him. It works. Yes, but it comes and goes. Sometimes we are more vulnerable. Every case is different, but when he emails me, I usually write back, but with a certain delay, and showing no emotion. I’ve noticed he’s been doing what this article says: testing the waters. So, it’s important to be strong. But sometimes I still think I may be wrong, he may not be a sociopath, he may be the love of my life. Then I leave it in th hands of God.


I gotcha.

Try remembering your spath from the day your mom brought her home from the hospital. All cute and stuff. Clever and actually ethical sometimes. WIth a cutesy name like Sally or Susy. And you have good memories, really you do. That where-did-that-come-from wit.

I try to acknowledge that none of that was a lie. It was all true.

The problem is, it just isn’t true ANYMORE.


EXACTLY. Cute before they came into their own.

Once they started the “freewill” thing, they chose how they interpret what you say, they chose their response, they chose the script in their head. And they chose a path that was not complimentary to yours. It’s incongruent. It’s not just a different path, it’s a path that takes no prisoners, it’s so destructive that all in the path are rendered into it’s victims, even if they don’t know they are wounded until later…


That “freewill thing” is hooey, in my sister’s case, in my opinion. I don’t believe she had a choice at some point, because nobody responded earlier in her life. They missed the signals. I don’t even blame her, really.

But go back to talking to her? Not a chance.

Because it’s MY choice whether I want to allow that into my life.

In my opinion, obsessing over that choice the other person didn’t exercise is a waste of time. I’m the one with the choice.


Dear healthylady,
I could not agree more with what you have said. Especially that bit about thinking he may not be a sociopath, he may be the love of your life. I think the same but I recognise with me there was an large part of my continued ‘relationship’ with my psycho that saw it as a challenge-the biggest of my life- and I think I confused that with ‘love’. It wasn’t.
As you said “I leave it in the hands of God”. But I think the problem is with me…because I don’t WANT him to be the love of my life…. even if God does! (no offence meant with flippancy healthylady)!


why did I let the psycopath back when I knew what he was?
I was secretly hoping that I was wrong.

hes gone now. Im discarded… but friends and family glad b/c I DID NOT HAVE THE STRENGHT TO DO IT MYSELF B/C OF HIS amazing good looks… bing a 6 foot five firefighter… and the amazing sex. Here… how much more honest and vulnerable can I be. however…
I work with alzhimer’s patience for a living. a music therapist.
I was 3 mins later than usual meeting him b/c some of my residents were having problems and I was trying to help them
he immediately pushed me against his wall.. huge arms around my neck…. I could not breathe… he asked where I had been. He asked it I stopped and gave someone a blow job somewhere! he went into my phone… emails… facebook… took all my passwords. erased all males from my phone. told me I was a whore and a liar.
and I am missing this person?

two nights ago… he was sound asleep… drinks.

a woman texted him at 3:08 a.m.

are you awake bb?

In a loving way…. I called her. It told her he was in my bed. that he was playing us. she gave me names of other girls hes sleeping with… although he told me last monday that he wanted to go to the courthouse this week and marry me!
I told her to please please please… woman to woman… never tell him that I called her. she promised.
she said… are you afraid of him….. I cried and said yes.
I asked her to not tell him.

I was supposed to meet him at a bar last night. I hate bars. He lives there. before I show up.. he calls me… he is sitting with the girl… AND SHE SHOWED HIM HER PHONE LOG…. she told him I said I was afraid he would hurt me!
Yes….. It iwas wrong for me to call her. but… when someone. is telling you love and future… and forever but he is receiving texts at night… and has calls to all exes.. so he calls them.
I knew something was not right.

Now it is over.. not b/c I was smart and kicked him out of my life… BUT B/C NOW I LOOK LIKE A LYING BITCH. I turned to another woman… thinking I was helping she and myself.

I was scared. I needed evidence that my instincts were right. and every single suspician was right. excuse typos. I am in shock and sad and sleep deprived.

I need love. Hope.


someone please write me. does anyone understand what I am going thru?


Hi Kittylover…you have been through so much with this masterful manipulative guy. He is playing every woman that he sucks into his sick twisted dysfunctional world. Your mind is opening up to the truth that every word that comes out of his mouth is a LIE and that he is a domestic abuser! You did the right thing calling her…he lied to her to suck her back into his con game. DO NOT focus on her keep your focus on his horrible abusive behavior. She too and all the other women just like you are victims of him. You must always remember this…he is using “sociopath traingulation” (google) to control all of you!

This guy is scary!!! My ex husband did the same thing to me…if I called him out on his lies he would shove me up against a wall too and prevent me from getting away. Then he would scream at me with his nose pressed up against my nose for 30 mins, 45 mins, sometimes an hour. I would emotionally shut down during this time and ignored what he was screaming at me and I would just tell myself I am leaving this a** hole. But then once he stopped screaming at me he would start with “I am sorry please dont leave me” routine and would not stop or let me leave the home until I promised him that I would not leave him. This guys routine is to tell you that he wants to marry you…he is lying to control your mind…to make you think that there is a future with him. But the only future you would have with this evil abusive, manipulative guy is 100 times worse then you are going through now…these guys DO NOT change except for the worse. You deserve sooo much better…you do not deserve to be abused emotionally, mentally, verbally or physically.

These guys know that words work on woman to control woman and he is masterful at what exact words he uses to play with your mind and all these other woman mind…it’s called mind control and it time we become conditioned to know that after the abuse they will be nice…the nice part is our “reward”….reward and punishment abuse.

Get a piece of paper out and write down all the things this guy has done to you that has hurt you…you will be shocked when you see how much evil he has done to you…this will help you to start seeing him exactly as he is = a sociopath!!!

Some other things that I recommend you do also:

1) Call your countries National Domestic Violence Hotline asap (TODAY/TONIGHT) were you can talk with a free counselor 24/7 365 days a year. In the USA the nuber is 800-799-SAFE. If you are not in the USA then just google for your countries hotline.

2) Go to your local abuse center for free counseling and free woman group meetings. You can get local abuse center numbers from the National Domestic violence hotline. THIS will be the greatest gift you will ever give yourself…do not feel embarrassed or ashamed…just call them…they will give you the support you need right now.

3) The way you are feeling right now…very emotional…is sadly normal when your mind is awakening from the mind control and brain washing you have been under at the hands of your abuser. It’s scary to feel out of control with your emotional and very overwhelming…you will get through this….the best way to do this is to go to a hormonal specialist doctor and get tested for cortisol levels, vitamin/mineral deficiency and hormonal imbalance.

Most victims of abuse have PTSD…you are displaying some signs right now which leads me to believe you too have PTSD…one of the biggest issues with PTSD that needs to be healed to fully heal from domestic abuse is adrenal fatigue. Continual stress suck as a abusive relationship causes adrenal fatigue…symptoms of adrenal fatigue include anxiety, panic attacks, depression, mood swings, not being able to deal with the emotional stress, hair loss, weight gain or loss etc etc it’s a very long list. The good news the adrenal glands can be healed.

see see the symptoms list/read/take quiz,, read her book. within days of the right vitamins & hormonal balancing you will see a huge reduction in your anxiety levels.

4) READ, READ, READ as much as you can get your hands on about sociopaths and there abusive behavior…this will open your mind up quickly. is one of the very best at providing so much healing information…if you go up to the top of this site read everything and watch the videos under the red and gray tab. Also buy Donna’s (lovefraud creator) books and read them. See also,, Other books Freedom of mind by Steven Hassan, Women who love psychopaths by Sandra Brown and The sociopath next door by Dr Martha Stout (this last one you can listen to for free on you tube)

5) Donna Anderson of Lovefraud does phone life coach counseling too you might want to do these with her to open up your mind further.

6) google “gas lighting abuse narcissist”

7) Start the ’NO CONTACT” RULE TODAY!!!!!!!! (read the article above for more info and google “no contact rule narcissist” this is the only way to escape your abuser!!
Please know that you are not alone….keep reaching out for help! You are going to get through this it just takes time.

8) YOU ARE SCARED for good reason this guy is abusive and dangerous!! You must end this relationship with him….so reach out for help today!!!


ps to find a hormonal specialist google “compounding pharmacy” with your city name then call them for a list of doctors and/or as friends for a recommendation.


Yes… my hair is coming out in handfuls. I have lost 8 pounds in two weeks and I am already underweight as I have struggled with an eating disorder all my life… which I was honest with him about.


I do not know how to thank you enough. I really dont. why do I feel such a need to email him and tell him I DID NOT TELL THE GIRL THAT I WAS AFRAID HE WOULD HIT ME….
I did not tell her that. she picked up on it… and told him that. why do I care what he thinks? I feel like an innocent person being accused of a crime. I just want him to know I did not tell her that.
not fair. so not fair. how do I let go of my urge to just tell him I did not tell her that? He said if he finds out that I told anyone else that i was afraid he would hit me… that I will hear from his attorney!!!!!!
He is poor… so I doubt that would happen. I just wish he knew I did call her… cuz like… why is she calling him at 3:08 am… when he was just talking hours prior about he and I going to he courthouse the next day? why are there texts conversations to all his exgfriends?
thank you so much for the info and the assignments. namaste.


did anyone have their hair fall out tons with this as well as severe and quick weightloss?


Kittylover…there are so many reason why you feel the need to call is he formed in addiction in you to think about him and to please him…this is why you must go “no contact” with him…to break this addiction and emotional bond.

PLEASE do not fixate on the urge to call him…every time you feel that need to call him come here to this site and watch the videos at the top and read…this will open your mind up to his abuse and will break the need for you to call him. In addition you have a large amount of cortisol and adrenaline flowing through your body this is normal with any break up but with a break up with a sociopath you have higher levels (off the chart levels) and this is causing to to feel impulsive, and ocd(ing) about calling him. This is why it is important to go to a hormonal specialist to get your levels checked.

YES hair loss and weight loss (or gain) is sadly normal when dealing with a sociopath…it’s your adrenal glands stressed to the max trying to deal with all of the chaos, stress and disfunction you have been under.

FOLLOW THE NO CONTACT RULE….get a restraining order on this guy for your safety!!! He is dangerous!!


you can start with the truth.
You were NOT WRONG to call that woman. You found out what she is. What she did was hurtful but it is the kind of hurt that is in your best interests.

There are all kinds of articles and posts here. You don’t need to wait for a response in order to find what you need. Go up top of this page. Start with Beware the Sociopath. Read. Inform yourself. You will learn what minions are (the woman you called, she’s a minion).

I can’t love you. I don’t know you. But as you read on here, you will have understanding, care, empathy, encouragement, and friendship. And yes, we all understand what you are going thru. The good news. You will go THROUGH it, and on the other side, you will be glad to be free of him


I read my reply and wanted to clarify, you don’t have to read and be silent. You can read and write. Someone will answer, if not immediately, then as soon as they are able. I check once in a while, but not constantly. I am on this afternoon, but some days not at all. But I still care. Nobody need go through this alone. For this, you need never be alone at all, not ever again. That’s why this site exists.


thaaaaaaank you.


This is the most embarrassing and vulnerable thing I have ever shared….but I am feeling such acceptance here. If I am out of line…. I ask your forgiveness…

My biggest draw to him?

I have been a professional model, actor and dancer myself… so my taste if pretty high.

He is 6 feet five and literally…. THE BEST LOOKING MAN I HAVE EVER SEEN… except or maybe Christopher Reeve.

He is HUGE.
a fireman.
I felt protected. I am tall… finally… someone taller.
His good looks literally disarm me. Like a trance. This is soooo embarrassing.
The sex… there… I admit. the damned sex. I am 44… and have never been more attracted to or enjoyed sex more in my life. He is not a particularlly good or GIVING LOVER…. but Michael Angelo has sculpted men that look like him. He is very well endowed. muscular.

someone help me please.
this is what I am having a hard time letting go of! that is it! I am addicted. 230 pounds.

I will never ever find someone this big or attractive on a physical level.

then again… who wants to be with a guy… who at 46 years old… has his facebook page as mostly selfies?

He produces tons of testosterone and was even tested. He is what is called… High T.

I have been on soaps. commercials. was even runner up Ms. NY in 1993.
He makes Johny Depp and Marlon Brando look like fleas.

Wow… have I just been vulnerable and honest.

I hope this is received with love… but thus far… all I have written to you all… has been received with love and acceptance.
advice please.

blue eyes that look into my soul.. make my head spin and literally make me dizzy.

Help me Lord. Please.


Your ex used his good looks to hook you and victimize you. If he was a good man, and was a protector and provider, his handsomeness would be very nice icing on the cake. Nothing wrong with being handsome, but there’s nothing wrong with being plain. Consider that Henry Kissinger won the sexiest man in America poll one year (Time Magazine? It’s been so long I don’t remember.) Once I get to know people well, I don’t really notice how they look. I notice how people make me feel when I’m around them, and I start to think of their physical appearance as good or ugly based on their character.

You probably especially appreciated his handsomeness since you have experience modeling and doing pageants that revolve around being physically attractive. I think in that way you thought you could relate to him. Sadly, he was nothing but deceptive and exploitive, but you had no way to know that. Sociopaths often tell us that they are just like us. They tell us all kinds of lies to manipulate us into giving them something they want. They like power and control, they lie, they are sadists; and they take whatever they want – your time, attention, money, suffering – by deception.

He is not who he said he was. True love and attraction starts with a mutual spark between 2 people based on their honest revelation to one another who they really are. You were attracted to him based on who he said he was. Of course if you’d known he was an abuser, cheater and liar, you would not have gotten involved, no matter how good looking he is. He actively used his looks and whatever lies he told you to hook you into giving him what he wanted. A lot of the starry eyed dizzy love you feel for him was orchestrated by him. He manipulated you to feel that way, it was not a natural progression.

You are going through the worst right now, and the most important thing is to have No Contact with your ex, and to keep yourself safe. He assaulted you, which is illegal, he’s obviously a psychopath and potentially dangerous to you. Getting away from him will allow you to think clearly. He has manipulated your mind to get power over you. It takes awhile and some work to get out from under that.

In the long term, you probably won’t be duped by someone using their good looks again. (He probably has victimized and is presently victimizing and will continue in the future victimizing lots of other women with his attractiveness.) You’ve learned something, and you will be stronger.

It’s natural for you to feel sad that you’ll never find someone as handsome – that is probably true. As time goes by and you get more clarity, you’ll probably feel less of a loss. I used to think my ex Spath was more or less attractive to me (he’s actually fairly plain), but after I found out what he is really like, I find him ugly. There are a couple of photos I have where his face came out really weird, like a demon. There definitely was an evil spiritual dimension to his personage.

The Bible describes Satan as being extremely good looking, ‘perfect in beauty’ Ezekiel 28:12). Jesus is described as plain looking, with no particular beauty (Isaiah 53:2).


Also, it is natural and normal that you are addicted to your ex. Women naturally bond via sex. Sadly, he used this to manipulate you. In a relationship based on love and commitment, your bond with him is appropriate and helpful in maintaining a stable relationship when problems and hardships arise. There is nothing wrong with how you feel. Those of us who have been victimized have learned to protect ourselves and not give our precious feelings away to someone who does not deserve it nor appreciate it.


kittylover, don’t worry, I cannot imagine anyone here will judge you because we’ve all been there.

Sociopaths usually have higher testosterone levels and they do seem to have this magnetic sexual charisma – they all have it, even when they are not good looking. They can be very uninhibited and have great seduction skills. The reason is that they don’t have any of the social fears. Sex is one of their primary motivations (as opposed to love) and they become very good at knowing how to get it. They have way better seduction skills then normal men, and that’s how they hook us in. And it’s the thing that makes it so difficult to get away – that craving for that passion. You can’t imagine anyone else could make you feel the way they do. The problem is that we imagine there is love attached to the passion, because that’s how it is for us. It’s not like that for sociopaths. They can have the most passionate encounter with you today, then discard you tomorrow for someone else. When you see this clearly, you have to make a choice. Your passion with them or your life. Because if you stay with them, they will slowly (or quickly) destroy you.

In your case, the good looks and great body are all part of it. But once you break away, you will see that there are other men out there you can also find attractive who are not sociopaths.


I do not know how to thank you enough for your reply and guidance. thank you.


thank you all so much.

I am in so much pain.
yes yes. I am away from a sociopath… but you guys….
HE WAS MY BEST FRIEND. He learned everything about me the past two months. My traumatic past. abuse. eating disorder. treatment center for depression and ptsd and anorexia.
he is gone now.
last week he kept playing “Shes Got A Way” on the radio by Billy Joel with tears pouring down his face. saying this song was about me.

a couple days after those tears and tight handsqueezes and holding me all night….
he had a 24 year old (hes 46) in his carmero.. letting HER DRIVE IT AT 120….
and taking cutsie photos of he and her in the car! after he had just left me at work… and I loked in his eyes and asked. “Jerry…. do you promise you are not going to see another woman?”
he said no.

so yeah….
he came back to me that night. had been drinking. passed out. I look in his phone… thre are the photos of her and some chick caling at 3:08 am and texting is he is awake. another woman by the way.
I called her. Out of love and help for she and myself.
I told her we were both being lied to.. he was in my bed!

I was scared and crying. she asked if I were afraid of him. I said yes… I BEGGED BEGGED BEGGED HER TO NEVER EVER TELL HIM I CALLED HER. That this is why I was scared.
so he comes to my office friday. tells me how much he loves me and wants me forever. and to go go Miami this weekend.
he goes to the bar…. I go home to change and shower.

he calls me….he “ran into” the girl I called.
she showed him her phone log and said I was afraid he would hit me.. (which I never said… but I did say I was scared…. but more scared of his abandonment and anger.).
he told me to never contact him again.


Yes…. I needed out. this is a bad bad bad dude. real bad.
but now I look bad and I cant even explain to him what really happened on phone with one of his fuck buddies.

Maybe it is good she told him…
b/c I am soooo addicted to him… his amazing looks and voice and sex and eyes and intelligence and passion…
that I do not think I ever could have left on my own.
hard to admit this… but that is why I am here reaching out… right?

thank you all.


Let me understand what you are saying. He dumped you because someone told him that you were afraid he would hit you?

Take a moment and sit with that. Do you get how backwards and bizarre his reasoning is? NORMAL caring people would want you to feel secure and safe with them. He responded 180 degrees from what a decent, normal, caring man would do. The dude is without a connection to his humanity.

Add to that that he took some woman’s word, and didn’t discuss your feelings with you. HE USED your feelings to dump you. He was petty and cruel and calloused and unfeeling. Moreover, he didn’t “ran into” her. He met up with her. Unfaithful scumbag. We here on LF know his manipulation is called “triangulation”, where he pits women against each other, for his ego and his amusement. He sees himself as superior, but his character is definitely hyper-deficient.

Also, you might as well know now, the reason he wanted to learn everything about you in such a short time was in order to manipulated and control you, he was probing for your vulnerabilities, to confirm his superiority and to know how to wound you in the most painful way.

And you might as well know… those who are attracted to certain professions because they are thrill seeking, power seeking. He doesn’t have community service in his heart, he likes the drama.

I am telling you truths that you will discover on your own so that when you do discover the awful truths about him, you can know to believe yourself. I wish I could help you avoid the emotional pain, but we all know that’s not possible. But at least you know there are others who can affirm you are worth cherishing, loving, care, and respect. This guy, doesn’t have the quality of character to be that kind of person. You got played dear, by a handsome snake. A poisonous viper.

Do you have a friend to talk to, someone that will sit with you, hold your hand, be there as you grieve? This is a particular kind of grief, and while we can share and support you, if you have a person to be with, it helps. I did not have anyone so I found alternatives. I did have a wonderful therapist but such a jewel is far and few between. And of course, she wasn’t available to hang out with me and hold my hand.

This is a process so remember that, it’s not done and over quickly. And that’s NORMAL. Right now, your feelings are raw. That’s normal too. But the dude? He’s not normal, and his disconnect is why a relationship with him was never going to happen.

He knew what he was, he just didn’t tell you because his thing is to scam people, get what he wants, and move on to a new target. The girl? She’s not his new target, she’s too much a bitch. She’s his minion. The one who helps him commit evil.

For now, you need to read read read. Have you read the links above? Look under You-A Target and read the article “Preferred Prey”. It’s not you, there’s nothing wrong with you. You will find out, in this case, because he has no conscience, he was what is wrong. He’s missing the part that makes him worthy.


The other day I got called out in a group setting for “trying to look good.” And I hit the pause button on it, wondering if it perhaps were true.

While I hit the pause button, reserving my right to respond negatively if I thought it fit, another group participant chimed in and “called” this person on the “way” he called me out. In effect, he got called out for calling me out.

And I listened as this second person said to the first guy, You could have said it like, “You are getting better at not trying to look good,” indicating that I still had a way to go but I was doing better.

The first person apologized, and I thought that was weird. Because I’m perfectly capable of telling him he’s full of shit. Really. If I want to, I will. I told him I never thought he didn’t “respect” me, oh no. I was being kind and, actually, honest. Nobody has to “respect” me, because I’m capable of responding to an insult if I want to.

The thing is, I think he’s full of shit, both for the calling-out AND the apology. Who the fuck cares? Really? And the second guy is being just as smarmy for supposedly rescuing me.

How’s that for bitchy? Do I get a prize yet, or burned at the stake for “bitchcraft”?

Because so what? I try to look good. And I also let it go sometimes too. Not even worth mentioning. I’m normal, for crying out loud.

THIS is what we’ve come to. Aren’t you nauseated, just reading this thing? I’m sick just writing it. Do I really live in this soup? I just fuckin’ WOKE UP, yo. I’m gonna go live SOMEWHERE ELSE. As one able writer put it, Transport my butt to a solar system where justice doesn’t get mixed up with justification.


Sometimes we call other people out (rescuing you) because we didn’t get that when we needed it. And sometimes we need to be told… “HEY, a little grace here! You can say the same thing in a kinder tone.” (also something we need to hear sometimes!) That’s part of the messy process. Yep. Messy is normal! But while we share common aspects from being snagged by the disordered, our journey of recovery is distinctly our own. NORMAL! Ha! Yes. SisterSISTER! We are NORMAL, even our disagreeable bits! (you have a long way to go to get to the true realm of bitchy, but I get your point.)


So I guess you’re saying this guy who wanted to be my rescuer didn’t get that himself. Interesting. Still not my problem.

The thing about our culture these days that really, really bugs me is that nobody just responds. They don’t just say, Nope, I see it differently. Oh no. That would be “defensive.” That’s against somebody’s “rules.” I don’t give a flip about their rules. Rules are what spaths — and “nice people” (same thing) — invoke to get consistent responses out of others. What if I want to respond differently? Sure, if what I truly object to is their “tone,” I’ll let them know that. But usually, I’m just lying to myself; all I want is for my needs and facts to be heard, even if they don’t fit somebody else’s agenda. My guilt over asserting that, being constantly slapped down for it, just attracts more spaths. The really dumb kind, if you ask me. Y’all are getting Son of Sam, I’m getting the trainees.

I was just in a restaurant where some guy literally threatened me for saying something too loudly for his taste. My friend said, “You threatened her.” He said, “No I didn’t.” That’s NORMAL these days. “I screwed you over, but I didn’t really screw you over. That was you thinking I screwed you over when I really love you but you don’t see it.” I’m ready to slug somebody like that before they even get their head out of their butt, where it usually is. I don’t, because that would be “assault.” But it’s verbal violence against me. I spoke too loudly in a restaurant. So what? I don’t get the death penalty for that. People need to listen to themselves do this crap to others, because it’s an epidemic of passive-aggressive violence.

It’s funny, I have a friend who is a retired cop, and he once broke up a training on domestic violence where the trainer was insulting them as insensitive clods, no better than the bums who beat their wives. He said, sarcastically, “Did she deserve it?” It was meant as a joke, of course! These guys are out in the field all day long, responding to calls like that, and responding mostly well by making sure nobody gets killed. He was just commenting on the mentality of these spaths: Everybody DESERVES something, according to them. It’s only because you blah blah blah’d, otherwise I wouldn’t have to hit you, threaten you, show you how not to use the dessert fork for the salad course.

It’s like that in “polite” society now: You screwed up a little, so now I get to hammer you, big time.


dear Notwhatsaidof me…I honestly do not know how to thank you enough for your last post to me.
I had just woken from a nap… in that panic of.. he’s gone… why did I mess up?

and boom… read your post and you have changed my life. thank you.


Sistersister, your post reminded me of a few therapy groups I was in many years ago, and even a few 12-step programs I attended for a short time. I noticed there were a lot of people there who felt the need to “rescue” me. And a few in the groups confronted me about things that didn’t seem to fit or seemed very judgmental. There are a lot of people out there who are working through stuff and they tend to project. I have found that the more I get to know myself, the more I know when it’s a projection. On a positive note, the beauty of groups is that they CAN mirror part of you that you can’t see about yourself. It may not always be in a kind way. I have found that whenever I get any kind of negative or “constructive” feedback, no matter how it’s delivered, I always check with a few people who know me well to see if they think it’s valid. Sometimes there is a grain of truth. I have altered behaviors based on certain feedback – it’s good to remain open to feedback. But that doesn’t mean you have to swallow everything everyone tells you. Often it is about them, and if you ask, “What makes you say that?”, you can find out their underlying motivations/projections. You can also say, “Thanks, I will give that some thought” so you don’t have to just blindly accept the feedback as truth. You can think about it and check it out with other people who know you.

One of the things I’ve noticed is that the more I heal, the happier a group of people I tend to attract. These people give me so much positive feedback and see my good qualities. I find that when I feel seen, it’s easier for me to trust constructive feedback delivered by these people.

The last comment I have on this topic is that even though I don’t know you, I can guarantee you have inner beauty and many great qualities that others can see that you probably don’t even know you have. When you really come to see and know those great qualities in yourself, you will be able to deflect projections more easily. The people you surround yourself with ideally should be reflecting these beautiful qualities back to you. I tend to have trust issues with people, but those who are closest to me generally see my good qualities and remind me of them often. When they tell me they love my energy and that I am very positive, I know they can see some of my inner beauty. This should be the basis for all friendships IMO – that they see your inner beauty, even when you don’t.




The thing is, when we go to “therapy” groups or 12-step groups, we let our guard down. That’s what they’re there for. The trust thing. And I don’t have that anymore. . . . The groups I frequent are very good at telling me about my greatness, too. Then they serve up the “constructive feedback.” I’ve come to stop believing in constructive feedback at all. If I feel uncomfortable with it, I am not “struggling” with my “dark side.” It’s my b.s. detector going off. I don’t struggle with my dark side. I show it. Spaths don’t.


My “constructive feedback” is that I attract people who offer stupid feedback that I secretly believe about myself. I’m going to cut that out.


And regarding “therapy”: Why do we give such people a free pass to walk all over us? When we don’t, they call it “defenses.” Supposedly, they’re all “licensed” and “certified” to do this, because they observe “ethics.” Seriously? I don’t think they do.

If you were riding in a taxi, and the “licensed” taxi driver started driving down the wrong side of the road, you’d get out, right?

If a “therapist” or “coach” drives down the wrong side of your road, YOU’RE the one who gets blamed for feeling endangered. If you feel endangered, it isn’t your “ego” getting in your way. You could be in true danger of being preyed upon, psychically.

I often wonder if “therapy” is just a CIA psyop program. Again, really, truly, Seriously. Because a population that doesn’t own its own selfhood or ability to just get plain-old pissed off is pretty easily manipulated, don’t you think?


sistersister, I don’t know if this is going to make sense but I’ve come to realise something today.

I knew my guy was a psychopath and still stayed with him. I was not afraid of him and to be honest I wanted to punish and hurt him for all the hurt and pain he had caused me last year.

I’ve just realised today, that in order to ‘beat him at his own game’ I ENDED UP BECOMING THE PSYCHOPATH! I only dd it with him. But when I wanted to let rip I did! When I wanted to insult him, tell him EXACTLY how I felt (with bad language and verbal aggression) I did so! I was a prize bitch with him and even if he pointed it out later I didn’t give a f**k because I’d decided (like a psychopath) that his feelings were worthless. I didn’t and (still couldn’t) care less if he was hurt by my words. It was all about me (I even used to say that!).

I find it really horrifying that I was able to develop such cold psychopathic behaviour. I am a confident mature woman, and treat everyone else with respect, kindness, empathy and love. With him I turned into a monster. I wrote a response further up the page earlier which brings me up to date with all this. Basically my Spirit rules! Nothing is going to get in the way of that. Being a psychopath (even if it’s only with him) is NOT my idea of spirituality so the psychopath has to go…and I MEAN BOTH OF US!

Let your spirit guide your actions sistersister. If your actions/words sit well within your heart/soul then carry on and make no excuses! And if there is a Bitch Crown to be won I would have won it!
Not now..I’ve resigned from the competition! YAAAAY!
Stay who you are unless YOU don’t like you!


I kind of went down this road a bit myself with my ex P. I realised that he WANTED me to lower myself to his level, that he was pushing my buttons to get me to act out in that way.

It’s not possible to win going head to head against a spath, because they don’t have morals, boundaries, limits, values; and they are willing to lie, cheat, steal, hurt others. The way to ‘win’ is not to play the game, to rise above, have no contact, act with integrity, and have a happy life. They don’t care, they just move on to the next victim; but that’s better than giving them what they want – becoming like them.


You are totally right when you say they want you to become like them… and in my case that meant doing nothing! He would happily lie around ALL day long, stoned and drunk… no motivation…no interests…no life! I am the opposite. I’m an artist, have friends, love life generally, and I haven’t had an easy life either. I had to ‘fight’ to get him to accept that I needed time to create, think and catch my breath. I am just happy that even after being with him for 2 years, he has never had keys to my flat. I always knew deep down that he would have completely taken over my life and more importantly my mind. And no, he doesn’t have morals or integrity…as he once said to me “I’m not an ex-con…I’m corrupt”. That said it all…. but it took me a while to really understand the gravity of his statement and realise that I would never be able to rely on him unless there was an immediate benefit to him, and that is not the kind of person I want in my life on any level! The bottom line is I’m happier when I don’t see him!


You did a good thing to protect yourself and to maintain some boundaries by not ever giving him a key to your place. You were taking good care of yourself in that way. It shows your strength and that you listened to your intuition. There are probably other ways you protected yourself that will come to your mind as time goes on.


What I’ve come to realise today (lots of clarity on today!!)is that even after everything I’ve said to him as described above…he always forgave it and came back! There is no way on earth I would have done. After the first outburst I would have walked. I used to feel drained and spiritually damaged by my behaviour and would a lot of time reflecting on what was happening to ME – spiritually. I would have to spend days getting back on my track. He on the other had would be contacting me within days if not though nothing had happened. He said he saw it as ‘just me being me’! The point is…I had never been like that in my entire life with anyone…so it was definitely more a case of me being him! And he is NOT what I want be! For goodness sake…I’m in my 50’s! I haven’t come this far to turn into a total nutter psyscho!!


Consider if he is manipulating you to act like out so that he can run through his ‘forgiving’ cycle. My ex P manipulated me and pushed every button he could to tempt me to act badly.


It has occurred to me that now I’m becoming the spath, not caring what other people feel around me. But really . . . isn’t that their responsibility? My responsibility is to me. A responsibility not to be selfish or mean or unfeeling, but to be who I really am. And who I really am is not selfish or mean or unfeeling. I have an internal compass.


I agree that there feelings are their responsibility sistersister. I too speak my mind. I also want to get ‘feedback’ (hate that word!) but to be honest…if I got ‘feedback’ the way that I have given it (especially to psycho)…I would not appreciate it one bit! In fact I would feel angry. And in a way I think this is what holds people back from giving their opinion of me. My Mum (spath sadly) used to call it ‘treading on eggshells’. I call it knowing my response (direct) would not hold back and they couldn’t take THAT. I think my response to people has often meant they feel too ‘scared’ to speak up especially if it is a criticism! My Mum had to learn how to do that with me. And I have little time for the ‘positive feedback’ either! I’ve come to realise (only this morning) that I don’t believe a word of it. I know what I am. If you know what I mean.


How do I say this? Turn it around. . . .

You attracted those “feedback” leeches into your world, so you see it all the time. And naturally, you hate it. (Everybody does.) You get so sensitive to these attacks over time that you start making others uncomfortable for offering the least bit of a comment. They “walk on eggshells.”

The problem isn’t your defensiveness. Most people would be just as defensive. You have a right to deflect this garbage.

The problem is that you attracted these “feedback” leeches in the first place.

What stories are you telling yourself about your need to “improve”?

How can you attract a better crowd of true admirers?

Ironically, maybe if nobody would even THINK of offering this psycho-b.s. to you — so POWERFUL, not defensive — there would be very little to defend. You’re already a badass!


sistersister I grew up with so much criticism I don’t even know why I should be ‘admired’ in the first place!! I know I have a personal pride in getting thus far…but I don’t know why I would be ‘admired’ by others! But then I am way behind… it took me years to even understand why friends would say “I deserved” good things…let alone believe it. I still can’t get my head around it – it sounds too like privilege to me. But then I have said here already today….I have some work to on myself! And it’s got off to a flying start today thanks to this site and the conversations. Thank you


ifellforapsycho and sistersister,
I want to know a little more about this “bitch” aspect, people who call themselves “bitch”.

Here is my perspective: My sociopath taught me more about the thinking of the worse of society, more than I ever wanted to know. I would call him a bitch sometimes. But because of my “education” by my ex, I know the difference between what I call “bitch” and what people do to stand up for themselves. I have NOT seen someone who is standing up for themselves go out and target someone to destroy their business, their livelihood, poison them so they end up so sick that their lives are shortened and they can not function, and seduce their child and separate them from a relationship with their child.

I think that the difference is the definition. I did not know my ex husband was sociopath back then. I learned about sociopaths later. But I did know he acted like his mother. SHE did these things to people, destroying the security of children, dividing them from their parents, destroyed people’s businesses and livelihoods, took over people’s lives to “help” them, and their lives were shortened. I called her a “bitch” and when I started seeing how my ex was manipulating people and how it destroyed whole families and their emotional and physical health, I called him a “bitch” (sometimes, “son of a bitch” because he literally is the son of her).

That’s why you who have a conscience will NEVER be a “bitch” to me. The fact that you even THINK or reflect about being such a thing shows that you have a conscience, and therefore, might do protective hostile behaviors, but they are PROTECTIVE, they don’t have the singular focused goal of destroying an innocent, vulnerable human being.

Now tell me what makes you say your behavior rises to the level of “bitch”, or even sociopathic? Because I just don’t see it. And if this is my blind spot, then maybe I’d better pay attention.


Nothing about my behavior rises to sociopathic or “bitchy.” Because I have this compass that makes me even ASK if I’m being a spath or a bitch.

Just like that “quiz” I posted. If you pass the quiz 100%, you’re a narcissist.

I have noticed, however, that I do indeed get loud sometimes, doth protest too much. It’ll get more subtle with practice. Just not that used to sticking up for myself!


Thank you for your comments they really made me think! For me the word ‘bitch’ is a bit of a feeble word, used (UK) to donate a woman who will not be controlled by a man! Who defends herself verbally and will not be manipulated. It may even refer to a woman’s sexual behaviour, but it’s still about being out of ‘control’. And it’s even used to describe(women) talking behind someones back (usually other women’s) – even if true. I think it’s laden with sexism. Just look at rappers singing about bitches & ‘ho’s! I don’t think it’s powerful enough a word to describe the mindset that I had to engage in order to overcome my psycho!

I think your explanation of how you define the word is brilliant and I particularly love your expression “protective hostile behaviours” because that is exactly what it was! To be honest I actually did get to the stage of describing myself to psycho as a Ninja…because I am way more effective…. than a bitch… and he knew it!
Thank you for writing this….just another wonderful insight for me to ponder. Today has been full of them…all leading to the same path and destination! And no-I’m not really a psycho either… I just ended feeling like one when I realised I didn’t give a toss about his ‘feelings’!! And I was right because he never felt hurt just angry!
I just want to be a (secret) Ninja from now on…I think it’s accurate and hilarious! After all I’m in my 50’s!


Love the “review old material” part. . . . I finally “got it” that an ex-boyfriend that I had to stay in contact with because of business was obsessed with a certain sunset over Chicago that we shared last year, not because he really gave a flip, but because he thought I might remember it and feel remorse over how that’s all gone now. Of course I feel remorse, that sunset moment was precious to me. Not precious enough to listen to it told to me in a million different versions by some guy who is otherwise just changing the subject on what he doesn’t want to talk about — mostly accountability. I decided the next time he brought it up, I would say I honestly didn’t want to hear about the romantic sunset. Ever. I never got a chance to do that. And that’s good. Seems my new attitude has been announced over the “vibes.”


Haha sistersister…not wuite the same but part of the psycho b.s. My psycho used to constantly tell me over and over and over that he loved me! It was cute at first especially as I fell in love with him. But after 2 bloody years it started driving me NUTS! I always felt I couldn’t say anything to him or my friends. Especially the female ones. They thought I was lucky to have such a romantic guy. But to me it was abnormal. I mean, how many responses are there to “I love you”?- Err…”I love you too”…”I know you do”…”Do you?” …it got to the point I wanted to shout “I KNOW YOU F*****G DO…YOU KEEP TELLING ME”! I never did though…it just seemed too surreal and rude possibly hurtful! But the point I’m trying to make is that it was more about trying to sell me idea of love/being loved!!He thinks he is a romantic. I used to tell him “Loving me is not a ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card” for you bad behaviour.


Funny! Thanks for that! Along the theme of what we attract, though, I’ve not only noticed the fake love around me, but my own confusion as to what love is. Again, this is my responsibility. . . . Not a responsibility to someone else, but to myself.

This isn’t just a problem with the extreme cases — the spaths — but with how I relate to everyone in my life.

Now THAT kind of self-talk is therapy! Not: Examining how I might “take responsibility for the interaction,” implying that I can preserve the relationship if only I’m a good girl, a better listener, a more sensitive person.

Very key distinction here: Taking responsibility for MY part in the interaction — versus taking responsibility for the other person’s response to that, i.e., trying to make nice by saying “I love you too.” The only person I can take responsibility for is me. The results, well, I can only state an intention for those. What I want.

By the way, what DO I want?

Perhaps you took the easy way out by working on the relationship, holding up the whole thing yourself? Because, compared with the enormous task of figuring out what love is, why I want it, and what I can do to express it, calling out how that other person used that is easy.


sistersister only TODAY I realised that I don’t have clue what love is. I don’t even know how to describe it! Don’t get me wrong I have had millions of moments of supreme closeness towards someone…even psycho. The reason I don’t know what love is – is because I was the only child of a psycho lady who did her best (which wasn’t good enough for my healthy development….really) So I am grateful that I met my psycho because he has shown me that by default! Trust me, he had absolutely nothing to do with my insights…but by being faced with his nasty deceitful behaviour for 2 years I was forced to ‘look within’. My whole reason for living is to be’spiritual’ and reach my potential as a human being. Nothing will ever get in the way of that or my Art! I haven’t decided what love is but I want a relationship that is honest. I want a really strong friendship with a man that I can trust totally to live shared values! None of that applies to psycho.


I was brought up to earn love’ by being HELPFUL! I earned love by using my brain. I appreciate that..and it serves me will in life. But ‘help others emotionally’ as I did my mother, attracted a whole bunch of nutters! All of whom I thought I could ‘help’! They all failed because when it came to me getting mine…they obviously had nothing to give..psychos or not! It took me ages to realise what was going on and that was only after a friend of 20 years told me that I’d been picking up ‘lame ducks’ for years! That’s the beauty of long term friends 1. They can see the patterns (who much evidence do I need?) 2. The know you well enough to lay it the line and get a thanks! So as of today I’m starting a personal project called What The Heck is Love Anyway? Hahaha!


I always say, “The beatings will continue until a higher consciousness is reached.” Realizing that each experience is a nudge toward that, if you recognize it as such, is the first step.


I posted this after the comment below..if it doesn’t make sense!

I was brought up to earn love’ by being HELPFUL! I earned love by using my brain. I appreciate that..and it serves me will in life. But ‘help others emotionally’ as I did my mother, attracted a whole bunch of nutters! All of whom I thought I could ‘help’! They all failed because when it came to me getting mine…they obviously had nothing to give..psychos or not! It took me ages to realise what was going on and that was only after a friend of 20 years told me that I’d been picking up ‘lame ducks’ for years! That’s the beauty of long term friends 1. They can see the patterns (who much evidence do I need?) 2. The know you well enough to lay it the line and get a thanks! So as of today I’m starting a personal project called What The Heck is Love Anyway? Hahaha!


apols for the repeat


Got it. Totally me in that mirror. I used to post lots of things about “Chrissy,” the teenager next door that I mentored. She’s still a loser. She accosts me occasionally on the street to try to get some more “help,” and I politely say she’s plenty capable of doing these things for herself. And that’s the end of the conversation. I love her, I’m there for her, but just not in any way that she recognizes as love or help. So she stays away, mostly. Shark repellent.


I am very proud of recently cutting all communication with my nasty, spiteful neighbour who I have known for 30 years and helped beyond the call of duty. She has always been vindictive and I have always forgiven it and allowed her ‘back’ into my life… without any apology. But she really over-stepped the line for good last year, and I cut all communication immediately. It killed her when I did this because before she would get away with her nastiness all the time and I would go back to ‘helper’ and I mean quality helper-shes about 20 years older than me.. and has been acting the victim for years. She NEVER apologised for her nastiness and the other day I got the chance to calmly remind her of some of what she had said. She interrupted to tell me “anyway…I’m dying…I’ve got cancer”. I just calmly waited for her to stop talking and then continued with what I was saying. I didn’t even acknowledge what she had said. I genuinely have no interest in her and that includes her illness and am happy with that. I realised at that moment that my care and love and friendship is precious and will not be thrown away like it had been all my life. Wonderful moment. On paper maybe not pretty but I just don’t care. It feels great and coming from someone who was born into the Roman Catholic the absence of guilt is exhilarating!


the support here is my saving grace.

this is worse than if someone had died. b/c I am grieving someone who was probably not even real.
I cant have contact… or closure.
then again… his deceitful actions should be closure enough.

I cant believe he spoke marriage days ago… and now puff… he is gone.
I cant wrap my mind around such evil.

and how the heck to forgive myself. this is the most difficult part.
all my gut instincts were right when I first met him at work.
I said no to all his invites for a month.

finally…. alone and sad and I JUST MOVED HERE ALONE AND STARTED A NEW JOB….. after being in rehab for anorexia for 3 months!!!
I finally gave in to an invite for coffee on the fourth of July b/c I was lonely.
we had a blast….
and I fell into the trap.

so angry at myself.


Try not to be so hard on yourself. As someone once said, “You have enough enemies in this world, don’t let yourself be one of them.”

Did you read the article YOU – A Target, Preferred Prey?

You will discover, as all of us have, that those without a conscience seek out and deceive those who have one. They are predatory, seeking people who are caring and have the ability to love. While they are gifted at copying certain behaviors, they don’t have the actual emotions of care and love, and so every time they come up against a choice that requires having a heart, they make the inappropriate choice every time.

There is NOTHING WRONG with wanting to be loved. That’s NORMAL. The disordered do not want to be loved. In fact, they have a warped definition of love, so they call it “love” but it’s not what any feeling human would call love. Note: pedophiles have the same definition of Love that your fireman has. That’s pretty creepy isn’t it? Just one of many discoveries you will encounter.

So, again, try not to be angry with yourself. In fact, the path out of this nightmare is to be loving to yourself, to give yourself grace, and comfort, and to be kind to yourself. Take pride in having a heart, in being a feeling person. It is what makes you an evolved human being.

Two more things:
Dump and discard are common with these type. It’s like a light got shut off. You see, since they were only pretending and not really IN the relationship, it’s easy for them to step away. They had not invested any feelings. They only committed deceit.

And yes, it is very hard to grieve, because you are grieving a puff of smoke. But, YOUR feelings were real. You were invested, you were IN relationship. The reason it didn’t work out was because, at the end of it all, HE WAS NOT WORTHY of your devotion. Closure doesn’t really happen, but you will gain an appreciation for who YOU are. You will feel truly free, and you will find that life MATTERS, how you live it MATTERS. And you will CHOOSE who you share it with rather than hope for or accept whoever comes along. Life becomes more purposeful. And when you recover and find your value, the lack of closure doesn’t sting anymore.


I do not know how to thank you enough.
woke up again at 330 am in that panic and realization that he is gone.
and here you are with words that are healing me and others and changing my life. thank you.


I love LF. It is like a beacon of light here. Donna has created something truly magical for those who are ready to heal and change their lives after the worst betrayal possible.

I am happy to report that the last guy I dated whom I believe to be a narcissist has not been on my mind for the last few days. That is because I have been out dancing and partying and having fun and moving on with my life. I met many people at both places. Two guys asked me out on dates. I went on one yesterday and have another one today. The one today is very cool, and I really like him (but as usual, I proceed very slowly). I don’t know if I want to get seriously involved with anyone at this point, but I am really enjoying all of the male energy. Also, I am now being featured in salsa instructional videos for the classes I assist with. It’s really difficult to watch myself dancing on video because I see all my mistakes and feel inadequate. But my teacher believes in me, so I will continue. My life moves forward, and all of these little steps I’ve taken have built my confidence and prepared me for the next steps.

I wanted to post this to encourage you all to keep moving forward with your lives even though you may be longing and pining for someone and in pain. Getting out and living your life is the best revenge. I will help you forget about the sociopath and bring you into the present moment. From the present moment, you can feel the pain, release it, and heal. You cannot magically wipe away all of your issues overnight, but you can begin to address them from a positive perspective with hope for what your life can be.

I’m off to get ready for my lunch date today.

My warmest regards to my LF family!



Your success and joy in moving forward with your life is inspiring! Thanks for sharing.


hi, i have not written in quite a while but i do read the topics. I have maintained no contact for
17 months – despite texts, emails, cards, My ex of 12 years is living with a woman whom he cheated
with throughout our 12 years together. I will not be the quote other woman in his life. I have
stopped all communication with his family except for my stepson whom i see on occassion.
My step son told me he recemtly that his father was not sure he made the right decision. My
response was its not his decisions that matter its mine and I made the right decision . Cant
say its easy cause its not. But when you understand the motives behind the reason why some one
is contacting you it becomes clearer. Breaking old habits is very hard.


Keep it up bscharming! They always like to think they are the ones making decisions! My psycho certainly was in over his head when he took me on because I have been in control of my life from the age of 6! No-one is ever going to control me (even if I wanted them to!!). The idea of giving him the ‘control’ in anything was ludicrous to me from day one!! That’s why he never got keys!And at the end of the day he was an idiot! I could do almost everything better/quicker (he was usually too stoned/drunk and he’d been doing that a lifetime…hardcore!) Maybe that’s why he was less damaging than some of the spath/psyco being written about at Lovefraud?? I do think he’s lost his psycho mojo!


My observation is that the amount of damage a spath does depends on both the spath’s skills as a manipulator and liar, and also on the victim’s circumstances and vulnerability.


Very wise bscharming.
“when you understand the motives behind the reason why some one is contacting you, it becomes clearer.”

Once I knew my ex husband’s motives, it unlocked the puzzle WHY he did such bizarre manipulations of me (and others). My ex is the sneakiest most underhanded explictive I have ever known, and I’ve known some bad people. But many of them were overt, not sneaky. The motives were the same, their methods were different.

But when you are newly in relationship, no one even knows to look for motivation. We assume they are on the same wavelength, until the “one offs” become the norm of our lives.

I discovered the most common reason my husband called me during the day, it was because he was going out with another woman or was going to “troll” for another woman. To get one over on me, to maintain his superiority over me, a game I was not playing nor ever would. I didn’t do power games. My satisfaction in a relationship is in serving to please, to make things easier and more pleasant for him. And he undermined that? It took a long time to understand why he would undermine my desire to make his life easier and more pleasant. Once I understood that if I FELT good about myself, happy that I made his life easier, that was a “loss” for him, and he was all about “winning”. So he’d sabotage his own best interests in order to “WIN”. Talk about a disconnect!

Nope. Not easy. But once it became clear about his motives, I didn’t question myself about that part ever again. And that’s why UNDERSTANDING what happened to me made all the difference. Some people say to just let it go and move on, but that kind of advice didn’t work for me.


Linda, thank you for the article. It is a great reminder of why no contact is best. And a HUGE thank you to Donna for giving us all this forum so that we can learn from each other and heal by knowing that each of us is not alone in dealing with a control freak spath. I was absolutely addicted to texting and calling my ex until I found this site. The site and the articles and the comments gave me the strength that I needed to stop the contact. I FINALLY realized that the nasty one liners coming back or the lack of response from the spath made me feel worse. I didn’t want to feel worse, I wanted closure.

But giving me closure would be relinquishing control and that’s something that spaths simply don’t do.

I am thrilled that whenever I feel even slightly tempted to call or text, I revisit the old material and it makes me stop cold in my tracks. No more abuse.

My problem is the THREE year ongoing court battle with FOUR different lawsuits against this psycho. Contact happens in the form of ugly, baseless, cruel, evil accusations in the form of “motions” that are filed with the court!

So, while I’ve stopped even thinking about ever contacting this psycho, every day, every week, every month, every year for THREE impossibly long years, I get slandered and assaulted by court documents that make me out as the bad guy. Because the psycho can’t take any responsibility for their wrong-doing and because they were NEVER accountable for the tsunami that they created when I was dumped on the curb like the trash, I have lawyers sending me horrific documents that are full of lies.

All I want is what I am owed financially, and three years later I still don’t have a single dime. What I have instead is a 10 foot tall stack of court documents and letters telling me what a loser I am.

Yes, I’m having trouble with no contact, but this one comes in a very different form. I just want all of this to end so that I never have to think about this spath again. Is that too much to ask?


I don’t think that’s too much to ask, but realistically what is best for you? Justice or anything like it, is a lost concept to a spath. Your well being is what counts, your ex is a non entity – he was never in a relationship with you. Spath relationships are one sided, because only one party is capable of relating. He was doing something else that had nothing to do with you, while pretending to be in a relationship with you, in order to get things he wanted.
In business school they teach managers not to consider past costs, but make decisions based on future results. No matter what you’ve spent, consider looking at what future outcomes you can realistically expect given more time and money you will need to spend. A decision made on this basis is the best for your well being.

In dealing with your ex spath, you might find something useful in the grey rock technique.
You may want to keep in mind that while you are trying to recoup some of your financial losses and find some justice for yourself, he is probably playing cat and mouse with you, continuing to engage as long as you are willing, and determined to keep harming you as much as he can, because he likes it.


Hello to all.

Donna Anderson emailed me (and probably you, too) about six weeks ago to recommend a relationships telesummit in which she participated. I did subscribe, and I was proud of her presentation.

There were about 21 presenters in this telesummit. Another of these presenters also spoke about relationships with sociopaths (her word is narcissists), and her focus is on recovery. Her name is Melanie Tonia Evans.

Melanie was herself was married to a narcissist. Her experiences took her to such a low place that her survival was threatened. She says she recovered from her experiences and is now thriving because she discovered at her point of desperation a healing method that worked for her without spending years in recovery.

Melanie has been teaching this method to clients for a number of years for a fee, and she offers this method on CDs for a much reduced fee. She also sells e-books. One e-book is about the subject we are discussing: how to do no contact–which is over fifty pages long.

Although I notice that I am turned off by the commercial nature of this web site, it may be an unreasonable prejudice, since this is her way of making a living by doing what she is passionate about. My experience is that she seems in everything she writes to be very passionate about helping others to avoid her painful experiences and to become healthy.

I cannot comment on her healing method because I have not bought the CDs. However, I am impressed by the vast selection of FREE materials she offers. I am also impressed by the great clarity I feel when I read what she writes. She makes such good sense to me that I feel liberated. Her writings feel very supportive.

The main thing I like about Melanie’s work is that she focuses totally on the process of healing the survivor rather than on anything to do with the narcissist. She explains that continued focus on the narcissist (regardless of the significant real abuse they perpetuate) is totally disempowering to us. We get our power back by shifting our focus away from the narcissist entirely and onto ourselves, so we can heal.

Here is the web site for those who may be interested:


True, that. Putting the focus on “me.” It’s pretty revealing, how strange that feels. But I’ve finally realized that even kind friends who offer “constructive criticism” need to back off, because I drain off too much energy trying to fix myself. I’m truly fine. As I say these days, “I’m kind of a big deal.” People like me attract people like them. And they’re not spaths, just playing their role in the script I’ve written for myself. The spaths are the extreme form of that.

I’m going “no contact” on that game, no matter who plays it. Think of how much courage that takes, when you’re dealing with one of these bottom-feeders at work, and they have the power to get your reprimanded or fired — or people with power in your church who have “wondered if you’re OK” — or therapists of various stripes who have been trained by our sick society’s idea of “psychology” or “coaching.” These are normal, everyday experiences that every “reasonable” person is supposed to “deal with.” And like I said, those people are not even up to the level of spaths. With spaths, you’re really in over your head!

In my opinion, people like us are at the cutting edge of breaking away from the culture and forming something new. We’re being challenged to grow.


I agree! Being challenged to grow is, in a way, how I feel but I also get the feeling that I’m being challenged to trust my instincts, without proof, for once!
As for counseling, none of them have given me any real help or coping mechanisms, they haven’t told me anything I don’t already know and I’m sure my spath could con them as well as he’s conned me and my friends over the past 14 years…


I don’t think this applies but I just had to tell the most recent. That r. that I was seeing and haven’t seen since the end of June. He blew me off the 4th of July weekend and I ignored him after that.

He showed up at my door on the 28th of August, just last Thursday. I had the front door open for ventilation and he just walked in. He said he wanted the space heater back. He made up some cock & bull story about the heater having a recall and that the same type of heater burned his friend’s house down, and the friend is in hospital with 2nd & 3rd degree burns, and it’s not known if friend will make it. My son was home at the time and my son stopped r. from taking the space heater. So r. had to drive all the way home, all 45 minutes of driving, empty handed.

The guy drove 45 minutes to come all the way out here to take a space heater that he bought me from yard sale in early June.

That guy really caught me off guard. I thought he thinks so highly of himself and that he thinks this is my loss. I really thought it ended quietly with no more contact.

I still dread the thought of him having more tricks up his sleeve, because he really surprised me! I gotta find it humorous cause he was so cheap and wanting to use my car and my gas and not pitch in, cause his truck is a gas hog, and how much gas money did he spend going back and forth to get a yard sale space heater, and to go back empty handed.


This is a ‘funny’ story (to me) because it shows you that he can’t cope with your response to him dumping you!He needs your reaction..needs to feel he can have some control. I love his reasoning/excuse about wanting the heater! (assuming it’s even true!). Stay strong. If you don’t want this person in your life keep it that way!He’ll get the point eventually..especially if it’s costing him money.


Jeannie812, the part of this story that I find hilarious and all too typical is that there’s never a simple story, as in: I want the space heater back. Not even: I want the space heater back because it’s being recalled and I’m concerned about your safety. Rather: I want the space heater back because it’s being recalled and I’m concerned about your safety because my friend used one just like it and is in the hospital with second- and third-degree burns. He forgot to add the part about how he tried to rescue his friend but the fire department wouldn’t let him so now he has a lawsuit against the fire department and the city but he can’t afford to pay the lawyer so could you spare a thousand bucks for the retainer? And later: His lawyer was crooked and embezzled the retainer, so could you spare a couch for him to sleep on, because his landlord threw him out because his girlfriend who is a drug addict stole the rent money. And this legal system is so crooked, he had to join a radical constitutional rights movement, currently holed up in Idaho with a lot of weapons, which is why he lent them $32,000. . . . It’s never simple with these people. Ask them about the particulars of the $32,000, and they can’t tell you all of it over the phone, but they can drop another juicy detail, also involving more questions than answers. They’re always moving $28 million around for a client, using their mobile phone, while you’re meeting for coffee (somebody actually did this in front of me a couple of years ago), and they’re a disinherited member of an African dynasty or the Rockefellers. Their ex-wife was the Norwegian ambassador to Cyprus. And did they mention that they still have such fond memories of watching that sunset over Chicago, from Navy Pier? . . . Oh, and we were talking about a space heater, right?


I suggest, just for fun, making up your own story. Like, how I’d like to talk but the cops just left and took some valuable property as evidence and you’d like to get it back but you have to wait here for your lawyer to show up but the baby is out of formula so could he just wait here while you run out to the store? Thanks so much, you’re a peach! An absolute peach! And if my boyfriend calls, just tell him I’ll call back. . . .


You cracked me up – thanks for the laugh but it did remind me of my ex ex spath. He was an ex fighter pilot, highly decorated with a grandfather that built the first roads in his country and started a little town of his own. Short story! He was also extremely wealthy but where “that money” was I’d never seen it… it only took him 2 years to fleece me of all my money before I said “your loss next!”
And boy did the universe send me a superior psychopath!


I was doing fairly well with no contact. When one Sunday morning at church I looked back and there was my ex in the pew behind me. He had done this once before, but I had just been polite. But this time I was glad to see him and we hugged after church and he told me he came not just for church, but to see me. I said I was glad to see him too. He asked what I was doing later and I told him I had to go home and cook lunch and then go see my MOM. He always does this, like if he wants to dangle a date, but he never actually invites. Normally I would have invited him over for lunch, but I resisted that temptation. As we said goodbye he kinda leaned into me and I leaned back. I guess he was making me feel he still cared and there was a chance. I guess I was doing the same.
He has not called since. He was just testing how I still felt. He just plays mind games. At church I am captive, he knows where I will be Sunday morning, its a public place and I cant ask him to leave, and you have to be polite in that space, no scenes. It about control. He is in his 50s , never been married and he plays. He played me, loved bombed me so I was hooked. Lies deceit and games. Most normal folk would call up and say,” Hey I am going to visit your church tomorrow is that OK? ” But he must use the element of surprise. Its like a very benign form of stalking.

I have to get off the roller coaster he wants me to ride on, charming me up, then making me drop devastatingly with his silences and lies. I know he will turn up again, by then I hope I will have the strength to be very cool or ignore him altogether.


This is so typical of spaths, sounds exactly like my ex P’s behavior, especially the dangling. My ex did so much dangling of everything in every way. Frustrating and painful.

Consider the greyrock technique.
Of course, it is easier said than done.

You probably wish you had not been as friendly and encouraging, so you probably won’t be that way next time. When my ex came along dangling and I didn’t respond, he would blame me for being unforgiving, etc, and for the lack of reconciliation. When I did respond positively, he lied and blamed me, so I may as well greyrock him.


Ah yes. Another form of manipulation by my ex. Dangling is another word for the same experience I had. He’d imply, sometimes very strongly imply. And let people take it the way they wanted. Then later, when things went pearshaped, he could always claim, “I never said that.” and “I can’t help how people take things.” Only… when you KNOW what people conclude and you don’t correct their misunderstanding, then YES, he was accountable. LIES by omission are still LIES.

I could understand miscommunication but my ex would boast at the dinner table how he got someone to compromise their standards, and it was always by a sneaky method, by implying he was “helping” them or letting them assume something he KNEW was wrong. Just like making it clear to some woman he was available for an invite but not actually asking her out. See? He didn’t know WHY all these women kept coming on to him. They just did. He’s not responsible at all! He’s innocent… right? And hogs don’t like mud either. Dirtbag.


“It’s like a very benign form of stalking.” I had to read that again: “benign.” It’s a very subtle form of stalking, but benign, not really. There is no benign stalking.


To Sistersister, Why do you say there is no benign stalking? I meant like harmless, although it is kind of off putting. I said to myself he has invaded all the spaces of my life , even church, which is my sanctuary. Now I find myself looking back on Sunday morning wondering if he is there. I guess he wins again. Kinda wishing he will turn up again and hoping he won’t.


Thank you all for putting a smile on my face about the r. situation. I no longer find it scary when it’s put in a humorous way.

To Alabaster: Good for you for seeing through him. You know that he is just wanting to be reassured of your love. Reassured that he has this control over you. Then he is off to do his own thing until next Sunday church service. And, who says you can’t exit your pew and go to sit in the single spot left in front pew of church right in front of the preacher?


this is so hard for me… can anyone relate…

when my spath or whatever he is…

I do not cheat. I do not sleep around.
He does… and accuses me of such.

He came to my office yesterday. He works with me… tho not for long they are firing him. he cried. he is a mess and clearly needs meds and help. I evewn offered to help him to get help as a friend.
he said…”I love you.. I want to be with you.. you are the most talented, beauitiful woman I have ever met… but I would never be able to trust you!You can’t be trusted Megan!”
What? You guys.. I have been known to be loyal to a fault.

YOU GUYS!!!!! i AM the most trustworthy girl on the planet.
I do not cheat. I was 100 percent dedicated. I do not sleep around and only have sex in a close relationship.


He cant trust me// b.c he is sick… b/c he is jealous. b/c he has not worked on his stuff. Not b/c I would ever ever ever cheat on my partner.
this is so hard to accept… b/c it is so hard not to take personally.

and yet… I can tell you right now.. he is in another woman’s bed AT THIS VERY MOMENT. i WOKE UP TO TEXTS WHILE I was sleeping that…'”Hmmmm Megan… You must be busy… that is why you are not ansering texts.” I HAD TAKEN A BENEDRYL AND WAS KNOCKED OUT..
i SHOULD not be having to defend myself my lovefraud family!

it is all so sick.

tomorrow is my one year anniversary of almost dying in a hospital of anorexia nervosa In Chicago. I thought I would have a boyfriend to celebrate with me. He is gone.
can anyone relate to how he twists things? I can never win.

I was in hallway at work yesterday talking to one of my patients on my cell phone. He accused me of talking to a guy!!!!!! What guy!

Please pray for me.

I love you all… I really do. My heart is just broken. He is very sick.

as Eliza Doolittle has said… “Im a good girl I am!”


I can so very much relate to the pain, confusion, and frustration, and utter heartbreak that you are experiencing right now.

My ex Psychopath accused me of many things, including sleeping with another guy (What guy?? was my response, too), while he was cheating on me. We were legally ‘married’ at the time. Spaths choose to project what they are doing on

I can relate to the fake tears and begging, which is a tactic spaths use to make others think they are too weak to control their choice of behaviors

Consider that your ex does not do anything to indicate that he cares about your well being. He appears to be deliberately doing things that leave you frustrated, blame and accuse you, refuse to take responsibility for his choice of behaviors, and leave you struggling to make an impossible love work while he does everything in his power to prevent it from working. My ex spath liked to see me struggle. He is a sadist, as are most spaths.

There is nothing you can do to help your ex. He isn’t your responsibility. You can take good care of yourself. He does not choose to do things in your best interest. He is harming you. Consider that the best thing you can do for yourself is to stop having contact with him. It is very difficult especially at first, but you will feel better and you will start to think more clearly, soon. You can always have contact with him again. Staying away from him does not prevent him from making positive changes in his life. Spaths do not change for the better because they like the results they get from doing what they do. Your ex has manipulated you into feeling responsible and guilty for him. You are not responsible for him, and he knows that on some level. He is playing a bunch of games with your mind, from what you describe.

Texting you at night is rude, expecting you to be available and not get rest is not being considerate of your health and well being. He is doing that to cover his cheating, and to blame you.

When a spath decides he is going to discard a person (they always discard people because it is fun for them), they wage a smear campaign and accuse the victim of all kinds of stuff to justify discarding the victim and to blame the victim for the discard.

I said a prayer for peace for you and relief from pain.

Congratulations on one year anniversary from recovery from anorexia. You deserve to celebrate your hard work and success over the past year. Even if you don’t have a boyfriend to celebrate with, you don’t have to let that stop you from celebrating with friends and family, or by yourself if you choose. You probably don’t feel like it now, but you can celebrate getting rid of a spath who is bringing you down, making you miserable, harming you, causing you stress, and who does not act in your best interest. I think you are ultimately blessed that your ex spath is being fired, so you don’t have to interact with him at work.

He has hooked you emotionally and psychologically, using your normal emotions and responses, so it is very difficult to stop interacting with him. He will also do whatever he can to keep you engaged with him as long as he thinks there’s some fun cat and mouse games in it for him. Consider making a commitment to having no contact in any way with him, for your own protection and well being.



It is very typical of an abusive personality to be very jealous and suspicious because they themselves are cheaters. So it makes sense that they project this behavior onto you. It is very typical. They do not understand how to be faithful so they can’t imagine you could be faithful.

I hope you are not fooled by his show of emotion to you and all his flattery. If a person cannot support their words with action, then the words are just hollow. Sociopaths are masters at hollow words. It’s called love bombing and they all do it when they want something from you.

Sounds like you have some issues to work on on your own without him making it worse. Anorexia is something to be taken seriously. I hope you can release this walking mess of a boyfriend and find some support.


thank you sooooooo much. Mess of a boyfriend…. I love that…. thank you Stargazer.


It’s called “goading”. Why is he doing it? Well…with these types, there is a covert agenda.

It’s a waste of time trying to figure out what their angle is. But look at the outcome. He has you on the defense. As you note, you can never win. That’s right. Because these type see interactions NOT as relationships but as adversarial. And so they MUST “WIN”.

And as long as you allow any contact, even being humane (because you are a caring person), he is setting you up for his agenda. The only way to sever his ability to victimize you is to go NC. That won’t stop him but it will limit his ammo.

You don’t have to explain or defend yourself against the ridiculous. Now that I am away from my ex, I just say, “it was a bad situation that didn’t work out”. I don’t discuss my ex anywhere but here, and even then, in such generalities that no one here would be able to personally identify him or me.

And yes, I do relate. It’s also called SMEARING, where these type do all they can to make you look bad, for whatever covert agenda is in their head.

In my case, my ex was trying to maintain his image so he had to portray me as a gold digger and crazy/unstable. That way people gave him a pass for cheating on me and leaving me penniless. (His minions actually helped him hide community property so the settlement was very onesided, and they also helped him with NEW women, this all before I knew he had “moved on”, all done about a year before we separated.)

I suspect your dude is courting some woman trying to prove to her that he left because you cheated. That’s called triangulation, where he provokes the new victim into competing for poor little ol him, she’ll work her A* off jumping through hoops so he “chooses” her…. only when that happens, he’ll have trolled and found lots of new fish!

I am so sorry you are going through this. But you are far ahead of many of us who lost our homes, our community, our livelihoods, and our precious children. Take it as a blessing that it happened now, you could have lost way more.

Here’s one thing I promise, and that I know you know… you are a hell of a catch. Next time, don’t share your heart quite so fast. Share a bit, and observe what he does. The MAIN job we have in finding a life partner is to “guard our hearts, for out of it are the sources of life.”

And yes. He is very sick. Disgusting really.


tear of gratitude in my eyes notwhathesaidof me. thank you.

it’s a year ago that I went into a three month treatment.. a center for ptsd.. severe depression and anorexia. a year ago today. I am saddened that I do not have the partner who promised to celebrate my still being alive.
I do not have many friends here either as I just moved here.

love you all….


Kittylover, this evil guy is messing with your mind BIG TIME…you must not let him rent space in your head.

He is using “projection manipulation” (google) ie I cant trust you = it’s he who can not be trusted to manipulate you and to confuse you…to make you seem like you are going crazy. This is what sociopaths do = pure evil chaos to our minds = they do it on purpose = they love to see good,kind, handwork people break down. He is trying to break you mentally down…he is planting these crazy notions in your mind to get you to think over and over about him. This mental stress is to much for a normal person and will result in adrenal fatigue.

He is also using “gas lighting abuse” (google!!!!) to push you over the edge…this is his ultimate goal.

Read Lovefraud/everything on this site including the videos at the top and Women who love psychopaths by Sandra Brown they will give you knowledge of the mental games he is using!

Have you ever thought that the reason why you suffered from anorexia was because of this guy messing with your mind?

It is very very common for victims of sociopath abuse to end up taking drugs, drinking, binge eating or not eating because of all of the stress their abuser is putting them under something they never did before the sociopath entered their life. As they say Stress will kill you. See take the quiz/read/see the symptoms list,,

DO NOT TALK TO THIS GUY AGAIN…do not let him in your office tell your closest co worker if she sees him heading her away or attempting to talk with you to have her intervene by just coming over to you and saying that she needs you to look at her work. Do not tell this co worker about your personal life with this guy you dont her to go to hr which could get you fired because they are only hearing her version. If it becomes dangerous with this guy then you will have to go to HR and get them to help you out. Just tell the co worker that they guy is manipulative, verbally abusive to you and you think he is a sociopath this will prevent him from waging a ’smear campaign” against you in the office.

GO NO CONTACT WITH THIS GUY ASAP! Change you phone number, your email, your locks if he had a key to your home etc. This is the ONLY way to have peace in your life.

Sociopaths play nothing but mind games to destroy their target victims then move on to a new target victim and will do this craziness again.


thank you and bless you jan7. great advice.


I am so sad this am. It is unreal. What could I have done differently…
oh… it makes no sense b/c we are not dealing with real people. We cant reason with insanity.

but the loss is real. My big and tall fireman who promised to love and protect me. who had great conversations with me. who told me how beautiful and talented I was on on a reg basis.

he is gone. by his own choice… and saying it is bc I AM A LIAR!!!!!!!! What the?

big lovefraud hug.

I am in bed with my cat. feel as if I have been hit by a truck.


First off there is no greater support then from a sweetie little kitty cat…they know just how to give you a great hugs and support every day! (my little cat helped me though my pain too)

Second there was nothing you could have done to prevent him from leaving this is what these guys do…they come into a woman’s life then vanish then return then vanish and in between all of this they mess with the woman’s mind everyday to make the woman feel insecurity all to control her and for them to get away with their lying, cheating, abuse.

He is accomplishing exactly what he set out to do = make you think it’s your fault = make you think that you are the one cheating = to divert the attention away from his cheating. PLEASE dont take his bait, you must stop thinking about what he stated that he cant trust you these are all LIES. He is messing with your mind.

READ, READ, READ everything on sociopath abuse to open your mind to his con game this WILL set you free from his control.

see also,,,

It’s time to let go of this evil guy for good by educating yourself….you deserve so much better!!

You are going to be ok, it takes time, you are a good person know this!


Can someone respond to this or relate b/c it makes no sense.
as they say in 12 step meetings…. we can only recover if we are honest with ourselves.

I have something just horrible to admit. but I need help.

Yes… I have gone nc.
yes the guy is twisted.

but guess what?

I wish I could go back in time and fix everything.
I wish he were holding me and everything were okay.
I wish I had married him when he said he wanted to go to courthouse.
I wish I had not called a girl from his phone afer she texted him at 3 am…. but the smoke was everywhere… a dnot with just one woman.

I miss him. what the hell? what is wrong with me?
I wish he WOULD CALL ME. he will not however. I told him I did not want to be friends… that is how he keeps girls around to have sex with them when he wants. by being friends. no thanks

I miss the man that cried to me just one week ago… about how he had to stay high when he broke up with me b/c he couldnt get me out of his mind.

none of it makes sense.

If he knocked on my door and professed love…. I would be soo happy.

what is wrong with me????

I was in this for a real relationship. I was involved on a real level. I was for real and honest. sincere.

I miss the beautiful man he pretended to be… or did he? dear
god…. Ill never know what was real and what was not.

and he blames his discard of me on me. that I cannot be trusted. What?

any feedback much appreciated as I have crawled back into bed with my kitty cat. I have no energy. sadness weighing me down.

why do I miss a sociopath? why?


Why do you miss a sociopath?

The simple answer is… because he filled a need and now that need is not being filled.

The full answer is much more complex, and one you need to know so you get through this.

Sociopaths are parasitic predators.
He did what many sociopaths do, he probed your vulnerabilities and found your most tender emotional places, and that’s where he latched on his soul sucking tentacles. When he attached his parasitic drains onto you, he anesthetized first with pleasure hormones. You experienced the pleasure as love, as approval, as connection.

Physiologically your body is responding to the severing of his parasitic drains, the pleasure hormones are turned off, the pain hormones are turned on. Eventually the pain hormones will turn off but it takes time. You can reduce the pain hormones by doing things to care for yourself, by loving yourself, by being social with others, in short intervals at first, and then longer times as your body learns to live without a parasite attached.

You MUST love yourself. Not just say the words, but do actual loving behaviors. This includes soothing yourself and doing things for your best interest, for example: eating right and making (VERY important for you) yourself go out of doors into nature as much as possible, striking up a passing convo with a stranger. I also recommend contacting Donna for help to find a therapist. It has to be someone who works with people who have been emotionally traumatized BY A PREDATOR. Not just ANY therapist but one that recognizes that you were targeted, you did NOTHING wrong.

If you could read the articles above, you’d find wisdom. Sometimes people phrase things in a way that resonates with the way you think. People come online and go, and not always when you need to be heard. Take comfort in that you are NORMAL, what you are experiencing is NORMAL. And that we can be of support because we’ve been through it too. READ past posts, you will find a kind of predictable emotional journey. The messages are there so that you don’t have to wait for answers.

Yes, you were in relationship. You are the one who is trustworthy, clearly he is the one who is not. He says TERRIBLE things because he knows your vulnerability, that it would hurt you. Your pain is his victory, it’s what he wanted from you all along. That’s what kind of personality he is, that’s what a sociopath is. They are NOT FULLY HUMAN. They LOOK human, but are missing that vital emotional component. (If you watch the news, you see that humans and the Neanderthal interacted, both LOOKED human, but their minds worked differently. The same goes with sociopaths. They LOOK human, but their brains are different.) The whole purpose of a sociopath is to use social interactions to get close enough to a person with a pure heart, attach to them and then drain them. Victims would never let them close if they didn’t disguise themselves.

Other people define this as an addiction. That’s not my viewpoint because I don’t think of making an emotional connection with a partner as an addiction. But understand, HE did not connect with emotion, HE merely attached his soul sucking drains. So SOME of your recovery is like cutting off a pleasure drug, because that’s the mechanism he used to attach.

Because of your medical history, You are VERY vulnerable. PLEASE get help from a therapist and PLEASE do what you learned to help yourself medically. I am very concerned for your well being. You are made for something wonderful and you MUST care for yourself so you can be available for it. Prayers are there for you but not enough. Please take action and care for yourself?


your email means the world to me. I had to take benedryl to sleep last night and have woken up feeling even more depressed.

he texted me last night… at 11:44.. saying… “I hope you are okay. I am thinking of you.”

this is from a man who for sure is out with chics and sleeping with other chics as he never ever ever stayed at his own apartment. he cannot be alone for five mins. strangest thing I have ever seen.

I DID NOT REPLY!!!!! I am proud of myself for that. the strength is coming from you all on this site.
Yes…. I am soooo very tempted to send him this quote a got on one of my love sites on facebook… I soooooooo want to send it to him…. I do not want anything from him… but the quote would help him remember what he lost.
then again…. your post has helped me to see… it does not matter… his brain does not give a crap.
it would be like sending a love quote to a gorilla. actually.. gorillas are very very loving animals.. so not a good example… okay… how about an alligator. a cold, unfeeling, predatory, reptile.
I feel love for the people here. and I thank you.

I have an appt. with a therapist tues.
I want to my doctor and she is concerned. took bloodwork. I get results tomorrow which includes stds… so yes… I am freaking.

I may attend some 12 step groups… b/c yes… this is an addiction. for me it is. I am in withdrawal….

huge hug…. thank you.


You are doing great to keep away from your ex and to maintain No Contact. It is so hard, and you are taking good care of yourself by staying away from him and by remembering that he is twisted and that he is not good for you.

The way you feel is normal, and appropriate feelings to have in a committed relationship with a good man. You are grieving the loss of who he pretended to be and the things he gave you. You felt a normal bond with someone. Sadly, he tricked you. He betrayed you. He used your normal and appropriate responses to control and manipulate you. His blaming you is lies.

You had no way to know that he was lying. You feel like his leaving is your fault because he is manipulating you to feel that way. It is not true. He left because he felt like it, because he does not keep promises, he does not bond, and because he does not mind lying. There was and is nothing you can do to change his rotten choices.

I spent a lot of days curled up in bed with no energy to do anything. You will feel better. Your thoughts and feelings are going through a normal process, and you will feel good again. If you stay away from him no matter what and avoid all contact, you will recover sooner.

Take good care of yourself. Remember that you have experienced emotional trauma from betrayal, and if you take this into account and give yourself time to grieve you will get over it sooner.


Kittylover, we are designed as human beings for love, and you bonded with this man – or rather with the person he pretended to be. Whenever we go through a break-up, it can feel like a very primal abandonment, but with a sociopath it’s much worse because you cannot get any closure or answers. There is nothing you could have done and nothing you could do to make it turn out differently. They are not capable of bonding as we are. They can only pretend if it suits them in the moment. I’m so sorry that in your time of need you reached out to someone you thought was on your side. And he turned out to be your worst enemy. You will need to grieve for the loss of the relationship you believed you had with him, and it will hurt. There is no way around it. But the sooner you get it over with and the faster you begin to form real relationships with others – even one other such as a therapist – the easier it will be. Also, when you begin to fill some of your own needs and become more self-sufficient, you will feel less dependent on him. When you need someone so badly, you give so much power to that person. You need to take that power back. You truly do not need him in your life. You are stronger than you think.


hug stargazer. thank you sooooo much.
I told a friend at lunch today who is tired hearing about this “breakup”– I call it discard..
that I keep ruminating b/c my brain is looking for an answer!

are nightmares common after these encounters? must be….. cuz I am having them. Yuk. This too shall pass… and with support like this I am sure they will not last long.

I am blessed to have this site and you amazing people.


Nightmares are normal from emotional traumas. Like me, you probably have other symptoms of PTSD. I learned some helpful things by reading about PTSD, which is a normal response to abnormal/traumatic situation. Being betrayed, lied to, abused, abandoned, result in emotional trauma in normal people.


I totally agree! I developed an eating disorder (my first!) and lost 2 stones that I could not ‘afford’ to lose-ended up under care of my GP for that! I never slept properly-nightmares were a regular occurrence. Stress and depression had me ‘off-work’ for almost a year. And as has already been stated-the fact that you are dealing with someone as toxic and duplicitous as we all have here is the most painful aspect of it all. It erodes your mental, spiritual and physical well-being. Time, love of friends and learning that I was in fact with a psychopath really helped me. Then I found Lovefraud and that turned my life around.


someone support me now please… as you are…

but a friend just called me. he called her. my best friend.

what the heck?

yeah… I did little things… like deleted things in my cell phone b/c he was a nut and went into my phone ten times a day and accues me of stuff that was not real…. even seeing a males name… yes I have friends… and accusing me of stuff.

our first few days of datying you guys…… first week of dating…
I had an already scheduled meeting with a nerd thru a girl at work in a dpartment in which I am trying to get into. marketing. this was not a romantic blind date… but a friend of the girl. a guy… who is in a Law of Attraction group.I met him at barnes and Noble for 45 wHOLE mins and was not interested in him romanticaly.
Yes… I told a fib to my new boyfriend and said I was meeting my friend Lisa. I had just met him…. just started dating and did not want him to think I was meeting up with a guy….I realy liked him… and did not want to scare him away.

wel… my fricking cell phone dialed him as I was at barnes and noble… there was nothing bad for him to hear… just me and this guy taling about God and Wayne Dyer and spirituality.
but…. yes…. I lied that I was with my fried Lisa… b/c I had just started dating Jerry… could not cancel this meeting that had been made weeksj prior….

Okay…. so I messed up. there was nothing romantic.
he sould not have ben in my phone and emails and fb.

but now I LOOK LIKE THE BAD GUY and he never ever lets me live these little fibs for protection down.

but he can discard me for days at a time and literally screw numerous women and lead them on….
all the while saying he loves me….

and that is okay?

and I am the bad guy?

someone help me please.

he has me feeling guilty.

if I had not done the barnes and noble date… or changed things in my cell phone b/c he had OCD with MY CELL PHONE AND WOULD NOT STOP GOING INTO IT WITCH HAD me scared 24/7…. b/c he could see anything…
a note from a male friend… and accuse me of something more.

Help me God…… please. Please!

he just told my friend… I put HIM THRU HELL!!!!

OH my

she has not blocked his number.

thank you for listening and putting up with me.

am I the bad.. lying person he suggests?

No…. I cant be!

kittylover – you did nothing wrong and he did – and is doing – everything wrong. He is making you feel guilty, when he is the one who is guilty of deceiving and betraying you.

Ask your friend to block him. And if she doesn’t , she isn’t much of a friend to you.


Dear kittylover. I am sad to hear you are in the middle of the awful situation because I know how painful it is. I have read your posts and wanted to respond but could see that you were receiving good advice and I didn’t just want to repeat all the wisdom that had been shared with you.

One of the things that really struck me about what you said was that you told a ‘fib’ to this psycho when you first met him even though your meeting etc was innocent. Why did you lie? No ‘healthy’ man who has a genuine interest in you is going to become jealous and did-interested just because you have a meeting with colleague. So there is no need to lie…ever (in my opinion).
Alarm bells should ring when any man (especially a new one) starts going through your phone. This is to me the classic sign of a controlling person and he should have been dumped there and then!! ‘Healthy’ men understand that a grown woman will have friends of both sexes. Your life did not start when you met this person.

The fact that he “had OCD with MY CELL PHONE AND WOULD NOT STOP GOING INTO IT WITCH HAD me scared 24/7”. b/c he could see anything”” is a major warning sign as far as I am concerned and definitely a clear sign that he is psycho.Jealousy is not a positive emotion.
I had the same jealous questioning with my psycho who had the cheek to say that no man should ever come into my home without him being here (including workmen)! I thought it was hilarious as I had no intention of ‘getting rid’ of my good supportive male friends of many years. I refused to take any notice and carried on as I was. He had the choice-either put up with it/get over it or move on! He had no choice.
The fact that this man is speaking to people you know and slandering you is all part of making himself look good. He has no choice if he is to justify his behaviour.
I went through all of this and it nearly drove me mad (literally). I went from being a healthy happy-go-lucky woman to a nervous wreck. All my friends could see the damage the relationship was causing. He had a minion who used to give him work. As soon as I came on the scene this minion was very jealous and threatened to stop employing psycho if he continued to see me. I know for a fact that psycho slandered me and made me look as though I was the ‘nutter’, hiding his abusive behaviour at the same time. That caused me enormous distress as it was totally untrue. But he had to do that in order to maintain the relationship with his minion as it meant work and more importantly £££. Your friend should be loyal if she is truly your friend. Now is not the time to have disloyal people in your life kittylover.

This man, although you say is handsome clearly has a very ugly personality and no amount of ‘good looks’ can make up for the abuse you WILL go on to suffer at the hands of this person. You sound like a good person. Please stay strong. You have DONE NOTHING WRONG. All you did was to give your heart to someone who clearly never deserved it. Give yourself time to grieve and then to heal. And keep writing here. It helped me and I know it will help you too. You are not alone kittylover. Love yourself, treat yourself as kindly as you would if all this was happening to your best friend.


thank you so much. so much.


A friend is a friend! Loyalty is part of a true friendship! If she is loyal to the ex then she is not your friend!


When things settle down a bit for you and you are back on your feet a bit, you may be able to respond to people he has lied to about you something like this. “I’m not surprised he told you stuff like that. He has been telling lots of lies to lots of people. He cheated on me and it’s over. I’m trying to move on and so I don’t want to talk about him anymore. Thanks for helping me by not mentioning him to me.”
Then you go one to talk about something else that interests whomever you’re conversing with.

In this way, you show people, without defending yourself against his lies about you, that you are rational and balanced and you make him look like the jerk he is for bad mouthing you. It can work very well because you rise above the BS he creates.


Kittylover, this is called a “smear campaign” and all sociopaths do it. When I was just starting to figure out that guy I was dating was a pathological liar, I had one of my close girlfriends call him and 3-way me in. He didn’t know I was listening in on another line. I heard him lie to her three times. And it was so convincing that she believed him! It took a lot of convincing on my part to get her to believe he was lying because he sounded SO sincere. This is what they do. This is their game. Be prepared for more if you stay in contact with him.

Please listen to Donna. Tell your friend to block him. If she is a true friend she will break contact with him to support you. If she stays in contact with him – and especially if she believes him – you will need to drop her, too. Do it swiftly and completely. You may tell her why one time, then be done with it.

Breaking up with a sociopath is no easy thing. There is usually a lot of collateral damage. Whatever and whomever you have to cut ties with to be free of him, do it. You can and will rebuild new friendships and relationships.


My ex P conned all my friends. I received some apologies from some of them for not believing me until I showed them the evidence I had. Most of my friends thought I was the crazy one but I was conned as well – we were all conned by him, so how could I blame them?…
I look back on all he did and how manipulative he was and know that none of us ever stood a chance of knowing the truth unless I uncovered it. I seriously wouldn’t have any friends if I ditched everyone that was conned by him – I have just as much sympathy for my friends as I have for myself – we all suffered in some way….


It took years, but I also received a couple of apologies from acquaintances who were conned, and the test of time showed the spath for who he is. There are some who will never apologize but they are people who have a habit of being petty, clique-ish, gossipy, and engage in politicking and factions.


Hello Kittylover from CatH9L >:)

Here’s a story, crazy and true…

The Characters are:

SPexH (pronounced “specs”, sociopathic ex husband)
FWBex (pronounced “F the What’n B* X”)
WoeSib (wordly sibling)

CrazyM (local lawyer who is low down without being on the down low)

Act One
Let’s begin with horror:

Okay, so during my marriage and brutal divorce from SPexH, I decided to consult my WorldlySibling the player from the Hood. WoeSib knows that SPexH had suggested to me that I had sign away all the marital property to SPexH and sign away any and all inheritance rights in favour of our minor child.

SPexH was asking this because he was “so in luv wit me – CatH9L”. Needless to say I didn’t sign any such thing and in fact insisted the marital home be in my name due to SPexH’s financial difficulties and impending storm of bankers.

Anyhow, WoeSib indicated I would certainly have gotten something after all once the money was transferred to SPexH and the documents signed, esp with him as trustee for the minor child…What would the Cat get?!! WoeSib believes I would have gotten new overshoes… made of cement… in the traditional fashion…

ACT 2 – FWB enters from the Wrong Side of the Stage

WSib also suggested my then beloved, FWBex might be in the employ of SPexH, since FWBex needed cash for … well… new specs… and everything else!!

So I trooped up to FWBex and said “YOU THINK I DON’T KNOW THE WORD ON THE STREET”

(rather dumb, I know, but as you may have gathered from my posts, I’m generally passive but sometimes a little over the top)

Anyhow, instead of a confession of being in SPexH’s employ, FWBex started apologizing for slandering me all over the town esp. the local support groups and 12 step movements… and apparently…


(Now, I don’t mean the kind without a green card, because who needs a green card when one is a 13 ft tall reptilian from Alpha Draconis…)

Yes… meds needed all around…

Act Three – Denouement

Whereupon I became the only person HAPPY to learn I was the victim of a smear campaign. Because what hit man is THIS loud and loony?!! And SPexH salvaged one of his businesses, signed off on the divorce, and so far is keeping a peaceful distance.

Act Four

Meanwhile who holds any cash to invest and turn a profit? Answer is in the list of characters!!
And just WHO is the mysterious Alien…

Yes… I really need someone to BEAM ME UP SCOTTY!!


I Know! I Know! (waves hand wildly)

Alien is love child of Halle Berry.


Hello NotWhatHeSaid of Me,
Well, now Halle Berry is someone smart, talented, gorgeous, who it seems because of the childhood issues, has been ending up with the wrong characters. Not sure if these guys are SPs, maybe?!! At any rate, right answer!!

I think one of the things I miss about these characters is that my life no longer feels like a bad movie script!!

Hello kittylover,
Hang in there!! You’ll find a way to survive and later to thrive!! (me, I started to write again after dealing with the characters)



Plus Halle Berry is the star on Extant, where she birth an alien! She was on a solo mission and came back to earth preggers!


Sounds like my kind of movie 🙂


the pain so bad at this moment.. do not worry… id never harm myself…
but I feel I wont make it.

I have lost tons and tons and tons of hair the past 3 weeks.
had blood taken last week and will hopefully get results tomorrow.

I MISS HIM. That is sick.
I miss our jokes and fun and how well we both worked with the elderly together. we both are highly energetic and good with people.

I am soooo sad. how did this happen?

how was he here two sunday nights ago and all was well and we were talking marriage?
I just realized that marriage…

and spelled very similarly.

and I am so sick, or sad or whatever…
that I have not blocked his number.
I am not ready for that.
I will not text or call him.
if he texts… I will not text back.

I know that sounds bad.

I guess part of me still hangs on.

I see a therapist this week, but who cares? theyu cant take my pain away… or make my hair come back…
or find me someone I love that much again or have such amazing chemistry with and sex.
and it was more than that….

I am venting.

I wonder which girl he is with tonite? and why?


You’re asking the same questions most of us survivors asked, and each of us found answers that worked for us or we accepted that there aren’t answers that make sense but it doesn’t matter. I know how bad you’re hurting because I was there at one time.

You miss who he said he is. That isn’t sick, that is normal. He deceived you with talk of marriage. That is serious and that is a commitment. You were preparing your heart and mind to give and receive in a loving, stable and committed relationship. That is normal and that is good. You were betrayed. That is what is sick – the one who betrayed you. Missing jokes and fun and working together is not sick; it is normal and healthy to grieve a loss. If you did not bond with another person, if you could just drop him without a second thought when you’d been considering marriage, then you would be sick – but he is the sick and unhealthy one.

Your physical responses to the pain of being betrayed will run their course. Perhaps you’ll find out you have a vitamin or mineral deficiency due to stress, and you’ll rebalance your system. Your hair will grow back again.

You are doing a good thing for yourself to arrange to see a therapist. I hope he/she is a good match for you and understands pathological people and relationships. If he/she doesn’t seem to be helping, try another. You’re right that seeing a therapist won’t take your pain away. He/she can show you ways to cope with your loss, to get through it, to recover and get to a place in your life where you are not suffering.

I did not block my ex spath’s communications to me because there were business matters we needed to communicate about from time to time, and some other reasons. I was always surprised at how each contact set me back. I did not foresee how much his subtle evil abuse would affect me. Even after months and years of no contact and me doing well, I would end up bedridden and unable to function for several days after having to interact with him or even hearing from him or hearing something about him. I did not expect to feel this way. PTSD is a serious condition, and you really don’t want to exacerbate it. You might consider protecting yourself from being damaged again if your ex contacts you. It is very likely he will, though maybe not right away, and it is very likely that it will cause you more pain.


Which victim he’s with tonight? It makes no difference to him; his victims are interchangeable and he can and will leave any of them without a second thought. If he hangs around for awhile or pretends to treat a victim well for a long time, it’s because he’s getting something he wants from her – money, status, a place to live, sex, whatever. It has nothing to do with her, and he will drop her whenever it suits him.

He will hurt whomever his is with, eventually he will do to her what he’s done to you.

Why? Because he’s getting something trivial he wants from her: status, sex, money, a place to live. Boring, very boring, and very shallow.

As much as you can, try to give yourself a break from grieving, and focus on something else for awhile – take a walk, watch a funny movie, call a friend or acquaintance and talk about something that interests them instead of your betrayal and abandonment. It’s very difficult, but would be good for you to take a break.

Keep taking good care of yourself. No contact is the number one best commitment you can make to get through the grief and pain the soonest.


Sorry Kittylover
Normal. You’re normal.
Hair loss? Normal.
Sick? Normal.
Horrific nightmares that you wake yourself up sobbing in pain? Yep. Normal.

My immune system was destroyed. I worried about you because you already had the issue.

It’s why I wanted you to take special care. Because I know the nightmare of trying to reclaim dignity and self worth. I want so much to help others to not have to suffer as I did. But I know, there’s nothing to be done to stop the suffering, but at least you don’t have to go through it alone.

You must be proactive about taking care of yourself. Make it your life’s mission. And even if you get some crumbs from the jerk, it will never be enough to keep you healthy (and believe me, the crumbs get very tiny and very rare). In fact, once you get this controlled, this physically sick, the contact is quite dangerous. Somebody that empty and evil is not worth dying for. That’s what I had to focus about my ex. To not let the evil one win. Because at the core, it is a battle between good and evil. Which is who is obvious. You are precious. I knew that from the first word you typed: “kittylover”.


kittylover, If you have the resources, try to find an acupuncturist. This will help balance your hormones which are probably way out of whack right now. It may also help with hair loss, which is probably due your adrenals (fight-or-flight hormones) working overtime. Anything you can do to take care of your body will be helpful. It won’t take the pain away, but it will help you maintain some control over your health, even while you are going through this emotional devastation. When I have been in periods of deep depression and wanting to give up, I forced myself to eat well and to keep exercising, even when I didn’t want to. I have a tendency to overeat when I’m stressed or depressed. You don’t want to spiral downward because of declining health. Even when you are in pain, try to do the bare minimum you can to maintain your physical health, even when it takes a Herculean effort to do it. You will be thankful down the line that you did.

I believe that learning to take care of ourselves and respect ourselves will ultimately attract partners who respect us and appreciate our self-care, as opposed to those who can easily tear us down.


This is good advice for me as well so thanks for the reminder to take care of myself rather than just hide away doing nothing but binge eating the wrong foods and creating really bad habits I’ve never had before….
I’m off for a walk this morning regardless of how much energy and motivation it will take to ditch the slippers!


It’s good advice for me, too, ironic! I fight with myself sometimes to go to Zumba and the gym. The other day I dragged myself to the gym. I was not in the mood – the gym is not fun for me. I was talking to the guy behind the counter and he said something very crucial – “Getting here is 90% of the battle.” It’s true. If I can just get dressed and get in my car and get there, the rest takes care of itself. In a half hour it’s all over and I can enjoy the rest of my day. I get that good feeling that I did something good for myself. I love doing Zumba – it really gets my endorphins going. But sometimes it takes a tremendous effort to get up and get there. I didn’t go today, and I missed the gym, too. So now I will drag myself there tomorrow after work. Wednesday night salsa class. Friday Zumba and gym. Saturday morning – two hours of salsa. Sunday Zumba and the gym. Monday can be a day of rest but I feel better if I do a little Zumba. It takes so much discipline to stay healthy! There are days it’s a real struggle for me. I’d much rather sit at home with a pint or two of Ben and Jerry’s and watch movies. I used to do this all the time in my more depressed days. But the results are worth it. Today, I put on a string bikini and went to the pool. And I felt pretty darn good in it, even at nearly 54! At least I can have that. I can say I’m healthy, and that’s a lot.


What an inspiration you are! 54 and a string bikini is now my goal…I’ll let you know how I go but I’ve got a few years to achieve this 😉
At least I made the effort to go for a long walk today so I’ve started!


Ironic, you’re awesome (((hugs))). But coming from a fashionista, not everyone will want to wear a string bikini, even if they have an amazing body. Everyone should wear the style that most flatters their unique figure. String bikinis look good on me because I’m short waisted. The bottoms sit very low so it gives me the illusion of a longer waist ***really needs to be a fashion designer and personal shopper*** LOL Often, once pieces do not fit me well because they are designed for more long-waisted people. Also, if you’ve had kids and have stretch marks or have lost a lost of weight and have excess skin, there are some very sexy one pieces that criss cross in the front but show off your sides. I cannot wear these for the same reason I cannot wear other one pieces. But they are very flattering for the right figure and can hide all kinds of stuff.

Sorry for the slight diversion in topic here. You get me talking about clothes and that’s what happens!! I’m a total fashionista. But I did have one serious point and that’s not wait until you are a size 4 to put something on that makes you feel sexy. Dress to flatter your current figure and start feeling sexy right now! There are swimsuits that suck you in around the midsection and make you look 2 sizes smaller. I will totally wear those if I ever gain more weight and cannot wear my bikinis anymore (I’m sure the day will come sometime). Thanks for letting me indulge my superficial love of fashion for a few minutes!

Have a great day! I’m off to work after a 2-week vacation. 🙁



Oh please indulge! Then come to visit me in Australia and help me create a new wardrobe of clothes that I feel sexy in 😉
As for the size 4…there has been a lot of discussion about the way Americans view size, here in Australia. We haven’t changed from the old way and while the information has been available I haven’t bothered to by into it so as a size 10 (here) I’m assuming I’d already be considered a size 4 (ish) there? To me, at my age I think I’m doing well and have only a few issues about weight gain which have all been associated with the stress hormone cortisol. Once I start to feel good on a more consistent basis, I’m sure I’ll lean up like I’ve always been…that and finally getting a new kitchen and being able to cook again after 8 weeks of chaos and moving – kitchen booked to go in on the 19th = yippee I say with Thermomix and Nutri Bullet in a box waiting to come out to play again!


Ironic, you live in AUSTRALIA? I’m SO all over that. 🙂 I’ve always wanted to go there and cuddle a joey. I cuddled one here once and the cuteness was overwhelming! I’m picturing you saying all your words now with an accent. lol

I haven’t gone through menopause yet, but I hear weight gain is inevitable. I’m trying to ward it off as long as I can, but I will accept whatever my body does naturally as it ages.


It took me over a year to accept the ‘red flags’ that were there from the start and to begin to look objectively at my ‘ex’ and the relationship. Having gone through the ordeal I now have the strongest, healthiest self esteem of my life! Thanks for the part that you all, here, played.


I hope you gave yourself Enormous grace for not seeing red from the start. NO ONE goes into a relationship looking for sociopaths. I have learned to assess and LEAVE sooner (rather than stay and hope that I’m wrong) and I think that has saved me from a couple nefarious jerks trying to con me (not romance but in business).


I am desperately struggling with no contact. I posted here a few years ago and am sad to say that I went back. I gave him 2 more years…off and on…of my life.

This past time we were “on again” for 3 months. He finally got his divorce. He introduced me to his son, and I introduced him to my kids. I met his entire family for the fourth of July, and I went on vacation with him, his son, and his family for an entire week in August. Then after vacation all hell broke loose.

I felt the shift. It was our last day at the beach. He started being cold and mean, and we got in an awful fight which led to him leaving me at the condo alone while he and his family went out. He then came back and locked me out of his room. He knew I was heartbroken, but he would not talk to me. The trip home was awful, and I tried to make things right that first not back, but it ended with him throwing a fit, yelling and screaming, and walking out on me. We tried talking on the phone a couple more times, but he was so irrational. I didn’t even know why we were fighting! So I packed up his things and left them on his doorstep. I didn’t hear from him again for 2 months.

So last Thursday, he showed up at my work and left a note on my car saying “Dinner tonight? Call me!” Just like that. Just like nothing had ever happened. I didn’t call him because I have a new phone and phone number, and I don’t want him to have it. When I didn’t call him, he showed up riding my bumper when I left work that afternoon. I pulled over in a parking lot because I didn’t want him following me home, and I didn’t want to call him. He told me that everything was my fault. He said I left him…that I abandoned him! That I didn’t put him first. He said all the things that I would have said to him, and he left me feeling crazy like were we even in the same relationship? Was I crazy? Was I wrong? I didn’t give in, and it was so very hard. He grabbed me and kissed me and said I was making the biggest mistake of my life, and he got back in his car and drove off.

The next morning at 2am my phone rang and it was the front gate to my apartment. I can’t prove it, but I know it was him. He was hoping our meeting softened me and that I would let him in, or he was hoping my phone number would show up on the screen. Regardless, I lay there terrified that he would get in a bang on my door so I got up and put a note on my door that said “do not knock. My kids are here.” I haven’t heard from him since.

So it has been a week now, and I am struggling. I miss him so much, and I don’t know what I miss…the lies, the abuse, the abandonment, or the insecurity? Why can’t I break free of this. It takes every ounce of strength not to contact him, but I know exactly where it would lead. But at the same time, I think at least I would have a little happiness for the few weeks that he would love me. I would have a little relief from this depression…until he leaves again. It’s so very hard.


Dear aj1202,
My heart goes out to you. I’ve been exactly where you are and could feel your pain as I was reading your post. Sadly, what you miss is an illusion that he created for his benefit. It was never real. It was fabricated to pull you in for his use and then he moved on. And blamed YOU for everything that he did wrong. I’ve been there.

These days when the urge to contact my ex strikes, and it usually does when a certain song comes on, or I happen to remember a memory of us having a good time together, I try VERY HARD to hit PAUSE mentally. And I say to myself: I miss an illusion. This sociopath never loved me, only used me and then put me out on the curb like the trash and said that I was the one that abandoned the relationship. I keep saying this over and over again. If that fails, and sometimes it does because I find myself sobbing, desperate for that “love” again, I pick up my smartphone and write a note. I pretend that I’m sending a text (but I purposely put it in the notes app so that there is no way I could send it) to this ex that I miss so much. I write of a shattered dream; of a love that broke my heart and aches to this day. I write of how much I miss all the good times we had and the amazing laughs, fun, sex, meals…and then I pause again. This pause is much harder than the first. Believe it or not, when you actually write this to “nobody” you release all the emotion by writing it down. It takes away the power from the urge.

I don’t know if that will work for you, but since I started doing this a year ago, I have NEVER communicated with the ex. It’s really hard. But if you can at least convince yourself that what you had wasn’t real, that it was just an illusion created for his benefit, then it will make it easier to deal with the communication.

I wish you luck. Be strong.


to aj1202 and stillstrong
I sought out all kinds of ways to cope. This is one that really helped me on those days where I knew I was going to be vulnerable and alone or if I simply needed a pickmeup:

I would send a card to myself. I’d write a note from my caring self to my hurting self. Dear Hurting NWHSOM…
It would be delivered the next day. I also buy and send myself loving messages (Hallmark has lots of cards!), I send cards for Christmas (one of the worst days for me) and esp I send a card AND have flowers delivered for my birthday. That way, when he called or tried to hurt me (more likely) on my special days, I had a card that made me feel cared for.

It SOUNDS weird but it works. If I go on a trip, I send myself a postcard. I am amazed how intelligent I sound sometimes. I keep the cards in a box and at low points that come up in life, I read them because when I feel forgotten and alone, I FORGET what I have learned or appreciated that got me out of bad moments. They are a wonderful reminder that I CHOOSE to live a GOOD life. I don’t let him decide to be in my life, I CHOOSE that HE IS NOT. (Actually he EARNED not being a part of my life.)


It’s just so hard. I have so much guilt. Maybe I will try your idea. It couldn’t hurt, and I am looking for anything to ease this pain. Thanks for responding.


What a fantastic idea, I love it! How nice to have those messages to read when all is crashing around you. I think you are the best friend yourself could ever have ★


Thank you stillstrong. I have done that so many times. It does help, but it’s only a temporary fix. I miss him so much, and I hate him for all that I lost. I keep thinking that if he was for real…that if we had worked…that the end of my marriage and the pain I put my kids through wouldn’t be so hard to accept. But I gave up everything for a man that treated me horribly and tossed me aside. He is still logged on to facebook on my computer so I can go on facebook and look at his page without him knowing, and he is living his life, and I am suffering. Every second is a struggle. I know I could call him or text him and he would come over and take away this pain for a few hours or a few days or maybe I would get lucky and it would last for a few weeks, but then it’s more time wasted, and he would distance himself and then disappear again. But the pain is just so overwhelming. How can I love someone so evil and so heartless? How did I give him everything and end up loosing all that I loved?



It sound like he is really manipulating you. Consider that he manufactured that big argument because he was planning to go be with someone else, and when he was done with that he came back with a bunch of BS lines trying to get you to take him back so he could exploit you for awhile.

You love who he pretended to be and who you thought he was and who you hoped he would be, because you are capable of love. You’re a normal person who can’t just turn off love and commitment on a dime. It will take time to grieve your loss and betrayal, even if he was a jerk.

If you focus on not having any contact with him and make that a priority, you will feel better sooner.


My guess is you are dealing with a Borderline and this would explain his feelings of abandonment. Borderlines need your full attention, constant reassuring of love, and always love compliments. They lack a sense of security and often no matter how much is offered they are out of touch with reality. He needs therapy for sure. The reason his first marriage did not work is probably because of the mental abuse he inflicted on his former spouse. He will do the same to you unless he gets help.


There is this married guy. Who I met at a party. He started to call and visit me. When I realised he was married I told him I would not date him. And tried to shake him off. He seems like a good friend and gives good advice. I am trying to keep my distance and dont want to be rude cause he has been nice. I really dont want him visiting me , but its like with slightest excuse he wants to pass by and I have to keep making excuses. I dont mind keeping him as a friend but he will push the romance. An acquaintance who knows him says he is a terrible flirt, but wont leave his wife, He has made a play for her and was seeing another friend. I don’t want to be rude because he is somewhat important in our community. I think I will have to do a complete no contact, he cant take a hint!


He’s not “a good friend and gives good advice”. He’s a predator. That’s his schick, his gimmick to get his foot in the door. You already know he’s a liar, a conman, and a whore. No married man spends time being “friends” with a woman other than his wife. There’s always a hidden motive. You’re his target. Going NC is a good idea. Otherwise you are in for far more than just a fling. There is no way to describe the pain he will put you through and in your community, he will ruin you. Do your best! I wish I knew what my ex was before I nearly lost my life to him. All those wasted years, just so he could feel like a “WINNER”!!!


Thanks for your very frank reply, NotWhatHeSaidofMe,
It was a wake up call. I will have to do no contact and shake him off, for the final time. He is a relentless pursuer and he sees me as a lonely widow. I think sometimes as women we see the signs but ignore them. I am finding that I am attracting alot of these types, men with no honourable intentions. Where are the nice sincere guys , dont they pursue women too? Or do we have to go sniff them out from some far way place!


After my divorce was final, I was also very vulnerable. (well, I was vulnerable before too, but refused to be “friendly” because as a married woman, it was inappropriate). I met a neighbors friend, a guy who raced bicycles. We started to hang out. He had a bike accident so I went to say hi during his recovery. He was taking pain meds and the side effect loosened his tongue. He made some very crude remarks about not to bitch that his dick didn’t work. We weren’t even having sex so I got defensive and said that’s not why I was seeing him. I asked why he was seeing me. He TOLD ME! All divorced women get a settlement. He saw no reason that my ex couldn’t support him too, that it would be getting back at my ex twice, once for me and making him pay for the new man in my life.

You are right. SO many have NO honorable intentions. They just identify a vulnerable woman and zero in for their own scam.

I will say, I met some very nice divorced/widowed men through my volunteering. They are retired executives who wanted to keep their hand in the field but not take on actual projects. After the bike guy wake up, I didn’t trust myself to date, I wasn’t ready. But I think next year, I might test the waters again. They aren’t sexy salsa dancers but they are very intelligent and love cultural pursuits, which is just fine with me.

As an aside, I refused to see or talk to bike guy. I told him that I wasn’t ready for new friends. And didn’t want him as a friend either. He called me a bitch. I didn’t care. That pain killer he took had a side effect. He didn’t remember the conversation! That convo was like God protecting me. Hmmm. I think it was ZANAX?

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