In a prior post, I discussed some differences between the narcissist and sociopath, a focus I’d like to continue in this post. For convenience’s sake, I’m going to use “he” and “him” throughout, although we can agree that “she” and “her” could easily be substituted.
The narcissist, if I were to boil his style down to one sentence, is someone who demands that his sense of self (and self-importance) be propped-up on a continual basis. Without this support—in the form of validation, recognition, and experiences of idealization—the narcissist feels depleted, empty, depressed.
The narcissist struggles to define himself independently and sustainedly as significant and worthwhile. The fragility of his sense of self is no big news; it is how he manages his fragility, his insecurity, that is telling.
The narcissist, for instance, feels entitled to a sense of inner comfort and security. More specifically, he feels entitled to what he requires in order to experience an unbroken state of inner comfort.
But wait a second? Don’t we all feel somewhat entitled to what we need in order to feel secure and comfortable?
Most of us, after all, feel entitled to the air we breath that keeps us alive. You might feel entitled, when dehydrated, to a cold stream of water from your kitchen faucet? Imagine feeling an intense thirst, yet when you twist the faucet, no water comes out? The pipes are empty”¦everywhere in the house.
You are deeply thirsty, and yet the water you count on to salve your thirst is being withheld. In this circumstance, especially if your thirst is great, you might feel outraged? Incensed? Even panicked?
You might even feel furious enough to hurl curses and imprecations on the forces conspiring to frustrate your thirst!
Imagine the narcissist’s thirst as constant and deep—a thirst for things like recognition, appreciation, for validation of his importance, and special signifigance. When the narcissist’s thirst for recognition is unmet, it is no small matter—anymore than it would be a small matter to find a spigot unresponsive in the midst of your urgent thirst.
In other words, the frustration of his demand of recognition is a major disappointment, a major problem for the narcissist—a problem felt not merely as an inconvenience, but as a threat to his fundamental equilibrium, sense of security, and comfort.
In a certain sense, then, that the narcissist feels “entitled” doesn’t make him a narcissist. It is what he feels “entitled to” that is most relevant.
Specifically, it is his sense of entitlement to an undisturbed stream of others’ approval, admiration and recognition that most separates the narcissist from the non-narcissist.
But the narcissist demands more than others’ idealization; he also demands others to idealize. The narcissist needs to idealize others.
For instance, when he finally meets, yet again, the “perfect woman,” he puts her on a pedestal—i.e., he idealizes her. Idealizing her—putting her on a pedestal—makes for thrill and excitement (which, by the way, he misjudges again and again as fulfillment).
After all, he is tasting perfection. He must be pretty special to have the enviable attention of someone so perfectly, admirably beautiful. He looks and feels good thanks to the reflection of her perfection on himself.
One of many problems here is that idealized states are inherently temporary and unsustainable; they don’t hold up permanently; they are fraught all the time with dangers of collapse.
Thus, the narcissist can’t permanently hold his idealizations. And he finds their collapse, over and over again, discouraging and deeply disillusioning. But instead of recognizing the futility of his need, he will blame the formerly idealized object for failing to have remained as perfect, and perfectly satisfying, as he demanded.
The narcissist loses something urgent here, namely the key to his feeling of vitality. Inarticulately, he feels betrayed; and in his sense of betrayal, he feels angry, even enraged.
Enter his “contempt.” The underbelly of the narcissist’s idealizing is his contempt. The narcissist tends to vacillate between experiences of idealization and contempt. In either case (or “state”), others are regarded as objects—objects, we shall see, not quite in the sense that sociopaths regard others as objects.
For the narcissist, others have an obligation to maintain his peace of mind. In the narcissist’s world, it is on others, through their cooperation with his demands, to ensure his ongoing inner comfort and satisfaction. When meeting his demands, others are idealized; when disappointing him, they are devalued contemptuously.
What else does the narcissist demand? The narcissist on pretty much a constant basis demands various forms of reassurance. It may be reassurance of his attractiveness, superiority, special status in a girlfriend’s eyes (and history). He may seek reassurance of his virility, that he is still feared, respected, admired, idealized, and otherwise perceived as impressive.
For the narcissist, such reassurance, even when felt, proves always only temporarily satisfying, and is translated as something like, “I’m okay, for now. I’ve still got it. I’m still viable.”
In his pursuit of reassurance, the narcissist is a very controlling individual. His controlling tendencies arise from his desperation—his desperation, that is, for the reassurance he demands. And desperate people tend to be heedless of the boundaries of those who have what they want.
The narcissist, for instance, may grill his partner controllingly about her ex-boyfriends in order to establish (demand assurances of) his unique, special status with her. Or, he may text her during the day compulsively, in the guise of his interest in, and love, for her, when, in fact, it is not about his love or interest but rather about his demand to know that she is thinking about him that drives his invasive behavior.
He will rationalize his invasiveness as his thoughtfulness and love of her. And he will feel entitled to an immediately reassuring response, anything less than which will activate his anger/rage.
The narcissist’s legendary self-centeredness, to some extent, is a function of the fact that so much, if not all, of his energy is invested in resolving anxious questions about his present standing.
He is vigilantly afraid lest his present, fragilely, and externally supported status be upended, a development he struggles to tolerate. Consumed as he is with obviating this disaster, he has little energy left with which to be genuinely interested in others.
How about the sociopath? What’s his deal?
To begin with, the sociopath lacks the narcissist’s insatiable underlying neediness. Unlike the narcissist, the sociopath’s violating behaviors stem less from a deep insecurity than from his impulsive or calculated greed, and especially his basic view of others as objects, as tools, to be exploited for his entertainment, amusement and ongoing acquisitive agenda.
The sociopath is a more purely exploitative individual than the narcissist. For the narcissist, others are desperately needed, and demanded, as validators. Athough the narcissist will use and exploit others, he does so typically with the ulterior motive of reassuring himself, on some level, of his persisting viability.
For the sociopath, others are his potential “play-things,” their value a function of the gratification that can be extracted from them.
The less validating you are, the less worth you have for the narcissist.
The less exploitable you are, the less worth you have for the sociopath.
Said differently, the narcissist uses others as a means to establish (or reestablish) the sense, and view, of himself, as special, impressive, dominant, compelling, whereas the sociopath uses others more for the pure amusement of it; more for the sheer entertainment of seeing what he can get away with (and how); and/or for the immediate satisfaction of his present tensions, itch, and/or greed.
The term “malignant narcissist” seems to me to describe the sociopath more accurately than the narcissist. This term has been used to describe megalomaniacal individuals whose grandiosity and sinister appetite for control (over others) better reflect, to my mind, psychopathic processes of exploitation.
The “malignant narcissist” is, to my mind, driven by the sociopath’s (or psychopath’s) pursuit of omnipotent control over those he seeks to exploit. He is a power-hungry, often charismatic, ruthless and exploitative personality whose grandiosity serves more psychopathic than classically narcissistic purposes.
Don’t misunderstand me: The malignant narcissist is someone whose most toxic narcissistic qualities have attained malignant status (hence the concept). In the end, however, he is as coldblooded, callous, exploitative and deviant a creature as the most dangerous sociopath.
Does it matter, finally, whether a cult figure like, say, Jim Jones, who led hundreds of his followers to mass suicide, was a “malignant narcissist” or psychopath? Not if you regard the terms, and destructiveness of the personalities, as essentially indistinguishable, as I do.
(This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
learnthelesson: Re: I have this unresolved and until you said this (I thought I was only one who had this take on it) but there is just something so STRONG in my belief about his past having stagnated him/his growth/his emotional intelligence. He says his childhood was unremarkable.
I think we do have the same view on this.
I’ll start by saying the S was never “popular” with women. He said, he had a few one night stands here and there from 16-20. He was so very quiet I could see why. At 25 he had his first relationship, she dumped him, and he said he moved in with another girl to piss her off, (I don’t believe all this), at 29 he met his X and married her as she was pregnant. This all seems to have a delay with women. I believe he was a woman hater.
Initially he told me they had an Ok marriage before she left him. The family told me they slept in different bedrooms and never went anywhere together, not even during the holidays. She went to her families house, he stayed home. S told me he thought his X’s family was great and enjoyed such a big family and said he always went to her families house.
I believe he never got over the fact that his mother divorced the dad and he had this hidden hate for her. He took money from her that she didn’t have to give. This all is the pattern that he carried with him to my relationship. I think/thought he was a woman hater, and an S.
Could it be, yes they are an S, and a result of environmental fators as well. Like the dog who knows how to bite, because you stick your fingers in his face to bother him and he will bite you AND genetically he has brain wave problems. (Sorry sometimes the words don’t come so easy) LOL
I like you tried to be more gentle with the S because things had been bad in his life, he may have been wronged and he just needed some extra TLC.
His stories never matched the reality I later learned from his friends and family. All lies.
Re: Learned the most valuable lesson of a lifetime about women”. They became a game, a toy, an object, something to screw and play head games with.
I agree to this, a woman hater, a macho kind, (your’re the man don’t take this stuff, housework is woman’s work), he would say), seeking revenge for being put off And he is an S.
The S I knew did not like any women in my family, to the bones. He got along ok with the males in the family, though, at least on the surface.
Re: god onlly knows what he went through in his childhood as far as emotional/physical abuse that may have contributed to his diagnosis.
My s, the S, not mine. Had physical abuse, deep physical and emotional abuse from his father. It only came out here and there. Before I had any confirmation of it from him, I once said to him, ” you were abused when you were growing up?” He did not say anything and tears came to his eyes. That confirmed it to me. He never spoke of it before. But I thought I saw pain there.
I do have sadness, compassion and empathy for that, no child should endure pain of verbal, physical, emotional or sexual abuse. I feel there was more to his abuse, but he would never say fully.
But he carried it out onto me and the family. He acknowledged he had it, why not change the behavior.
Here comes the skillet, because he is an S. (with environmental factors that come into play).
Thanks learned
Is open – This is unexpectedly emotional for me. I reread my post and yours and there is just something completely upsetting to me about internally accepting this guy is a Sociopath. Why the he@.......@ does it matter to me if environmental factors played a roll or not? What? does that minimize the severity or his personal intent of the situation for me? I guess Im just at another turning point, growing, learning, shedding another layer of denial. Just when i think Im finally making progress, I find myself regressing with words like “I know it was part of his past that triggered him into becoming a full fledged S” – who cares what it was, its who he is and what he did = present day, that matters. And who he chooses to be. Skillet deserved with that one. Thanks IS OPEN
keeping_faith: Re:The XS/P was married for 26 years. I was married for 22. I felt that he was 1. stable, having been married for so long (being naiive and assuming that longevity of marriage means something to everyone.
Yep my thought too, I was married for 20 something and S was for 18. I also thought the longer a person was married, somehow that gave them a view into relationships and conflict resoloution. HAHA. Dim wit, me not you.
Re: then later told me he had a short affair because his wife pissed him off, In the beginning they are angry. They just hide it better. In the end they are angry. It’s probably the only emotion they truly feel.
Mine told me had an affair or 2 because he wanted to get back at his X, he said one was her friend and then changed the story so many times I could not keep up. I can see now, he was always angry. I asked him how come you never laugh when a comedian is on, how come you never feel excited about going on vacation? I now know. He couldn’t. He could only break a smile, grin with teeth closed. Not a big yahooie, I am going on vacation hurrah! Nope.
Re:There is no sense to the nonsense !!!!
It makes my head spin…….
Re: Or did he really hate himself?
I believe that the S really does hate himself to the core, and portray it onto us, the deep hate. Whether you are nice or evil back to them. It is self hate anyway about it. The Demon. (I spoke of on another thread).
That statement I just typed made me pause, this whole S thing is just so, I can’t describe it. How can someone be so messed up. Not a question.
I found myself in a stupor today, relating to what an S is. Slow processing and changing the reality of what my world was and what it really was.
But I can laugh again, after all the turmoil.
Thanks.
Thank you for this interesting Borderline S/N Blog. Since I’m not the perfect woman the N I was with for 14 years couldn’t show me off and feel better about himself, so he held me in contempt. Explains a lot. I knew something was slightly off, but never quite came up with the right word.
Oh, and he was a major, big time LIAR.
Is Opn: It is possible that everything he told you is a lie. Perhaps he didn’t date much because younger women, teenage girls, felt that something was “off” with him. I had a “nonrelationship” with someone who was a geek that I met in college, (No offense; I have an affection for shy, techno people who don’t mix well with others because they are too wrapped up in their techno world.) I felt sorry for him, and kept in touch with him over the years, from time to time. I saw him go in and out of relationships, but I never was nearby to see anything particularly off about him in those relationships. Finally he decided that he would campaign for my affections. I wasn’t interested. (I will note that I saw how he wanted to tickle my young daughter — all in “fun” of course — but I didn’t feel comfortable about it, and set up a “hands-off” policy with him.) I maintained a connection as a friend, but made it clear that I did not want a romance. He then turned into a stalker in the extreme. “The Legal Abuse Syndrome” might have been written about him. I now feel that everything he ever might have said about lost loves and wounded heart was just his invention. I am grateful beyond belief that I never took that relationship to the next step. I don’t know how much worse it could have gotten, but with NO romantic relationship, he still stalked me for over ten years.
Not-so-Shabby: It wouldn’t matter if you WERE a “perfect 10.” There would still be something wrong with you, so that he could put you down. Really, really — you need to let go of whatever validation you want to give his absurd words! He just said what he said because he could say it to make you feel bad. End of story. And you, of course, thought his words actually MEANT something. Not!
Dear Is opn,
It is not unusual for a Psychopath to have a psychopathic parent as well, so they get the DOUBLE WHAMMY of both genetics and abuse as children.
GENETICS are a BIG part of the Ps though, my bio father who did not raise me (I didn’t meet him until I was 16) was a violent Psychopath, my P-son never met my bio father and is JUST LIKE HIM. I can trace the genetics back on one side of the family to the early 1800s, and on others several generations as well. My family is FULL of them and their enablers. Generation after generation whether there was any relationship besides genetics or not.
Also experiments with identical twins (same genetics) raised apart show that 80% of the time if one twin is a P the other is as well, so there is at least 80% genetics involved.
I am also an animal breeder and trainer, and I have seen in various breeds of animals as well as species that the genetics of the parents definitely runs in the “personalities” of the off-springs. The tendency for aggression is genetic. Of course environment can work with the genetics for the good or for the bad, but if “it” (whatever “it” is) isn’t there you can’t train it in. You can’t take a wolf pup and make it into a Border Collie no matter how young you take it away from its mother and pack. Genetics are TOO strong in the wolf to train it to herd sheep. That is a FACT!
OUr “politically correct” ideas today that there is “good in everyone” and that “environment” writes on a “blank slate” in a newborn baby is HORSE HOCKEY!!! I realize it might be nice if that was so, but it isn’t! All of the “politically correct” poppycock in the world isn’t gonna make it so either.
For a long time parents have been “blamed” for the depression, schizophrenia and so on of their children, when it is mostly genetics. I even read a book written in the late 1980s that was about “family group” roles, and it attributed schizophrenia to a harsh childhood! Sheesh!
Fortunately now that the human genome project is a great ways down the pike, the genes for many diseases and conditions are being discovered, which hopefully, will lead to a way to “fix” the problems. Of course there are also conditions that take MULTIPLE genes to produce an effect, and apparently psychpathic people must have several different genes. Environment may also account for what kind of predator they become, but they are still a predator whether they are in the White House, CEO of Mega-Corp or in prison.
Just as you can’t identify someone as a psychopath like Ted Bundy when you meet them, or a child molester by how they look, you can’t identify ANY psychopath except by the PATTERN of their behavior over a long period of time, some longer than others.
That is why we MUST LEARN THE EARLY WARNING SIGNS, the RED FLAGS. One of the RED FLAGS that I RUN from at the first sign of it is A SINGLE LIE. Sure, not everyone who tells a single lie is a P, but ALL Ps lie, so I am NOT taking any chances. I will avoid liars! I will avoid ALL Cheaters, thieves, people who do anything illegal or immoral. Anyone who “comes on too strong” upon first meeting, anyone who abuses anyone or anything. Sure, I may miss out on a few “good relationships” because I avoid ALL liars, and ALL thieves, but I bett’ya I won’t miss out on many by avoiding this kind of person. LOL
I also know that there are a few people who go to prison and come out better people and live good lives, but because most people who go to prison for a felony crime DON’T come out better, I don’t intend to marry an “ex” convict either, or a drug addict, or anyone else who has had SERIOUS and CONTINUAL problems. Why would I? (not much chance in me finding a partner anyway but you know what I mean, I think).
The point is that if I avoid people whose MORAL COMPASS doesn’t point in the direction mine does then I don’t want them in myh “circle of trust.” I cna’t eliminate all “sin” from the universe, but I don’t have to intimately associate with them or loan them money either! LOL I am just becoming very picky on my relationships that are CLOSE to me.
I can interact with these people in the community, as neighbors, etc. but not as INTIMATES in my close circle of friends and loved ones. There are too many people in this world who are NOT liars, thieves, convicts, spouse abusers, child abusers, child molesters, etc. I want to pick my friends by their moral codes and their behaviors, and pick from the TOP of the heap, not from the bottom.
Pardon me for commenting before having read the entire thread, but I will, as this is fascinating. Thank you Dr. Steve for an excellent article.
I have just spent the evening in the company of two recent divorcees and one married woman. Both the divorcees have been shattered by long term relationships that ended in betrayal. I believe both their partners were at the very least N’s. But does it matter?
During the conversation, as both women are still trying to COMPREHEND, TO EXPLAIN, TO RATIONALIZE, TO COME TO TERMS WITH what has happened to them, I simply stated that the pattern is ” idealize, devalue, and discard”. The instant recognition was there for both of them. No contest, no question, end of story.
BOTH N’s and P’s use their targets, the N’s perhaps a little more less consciously, and based on some inner need, the P’s with calculating precision and planning, with a natural talent to anticipate their next opportunity to exploit.
I find it slightly more palatable to forgive an N..they seem to me less aware of their genuine lack of feeling, perhaps trying harder to “fit in”, to “be”.
Bottom line is neither one can actually love, or really feel, other than percieved slights to their ego’s. For the unwitting partner of such a person, the emotional impact is probably very similar. The P’s I think are more likely to devastate the entire infrastructure of their victim, leaving nothing but devastation in their wake.
Does it matter? Only if you are thinking about staying.
Does it matter? Only if you haven’t yet lost everything.
Does it matter? only if you are still trying to fix.
In the case of one of these women, she has not only lost a husband and business partner of several decades, the N, i will call him, has succeeded in charming the entire community of freinds they shared.
The jury is out. His pretense has won the day. His mask has everyone cheering him on. My freind is pretty much devastated and shattered, and he is glorying in his new half his age supply, and getting a massive pity play out of his “shadow of her former self” ex. Of course he left her, just look at the mess she is and so on….
This is once again, where our “two sides to every story” hands the advantage to the PSN’s. That ,plus the mask and they have it made.
Is all of this just bitter rambling of a group of scorned wives? Not enough sex, burnt the dinner, no wonder he left her kind of stuff? NO. People do marry badly, misbehave, go astray. Show me a truly functional family. That is not the point. We are all flawed. But the idea of someone who is UNREDEEMABLE is very difficult to accept. Both these women, injured as they are, still try to ACCOMODATE the quirks of their abusers.
Maybe the analogy for difference between an N and a P would be a situation where a boat has capsized and there is only one good piece of floating wood to hang on to.
I think the N would beg you to share it and do a good job convinvcing you of why that is in your best interest, because after alll… whereas the P would drown you to have it all.
Through all this learning, it is difficult to not sound bitter, and to not feel ashamed of having been so naive. However, the MAJORITY of people are NOT like this. It just seems that the small minority of PSN’s can spread their mayhem far and wide.
Peace and love,
Re:Matt Re: “Do you think that an S plays the same games with all of their romantic involvements?, and changes the tactics slightly if they are not working?”
Sure do. There have been enough people who have posted on this site who have learned that their ex-Ss have run the same drill or previous and subsequent releationships right down to using the same lines on the others and taking them to the same place.
I oftened wondered if they had same lines, same places they took the romantic partner. So they basically kiss and carry on the same, with anyone. Thanks for validating that. I now know what he does know to a T. I needed that!!!! LOL
After I miscarried, my S wanted to go on vacation, sympathetically to heal me, or so he said. He took me to the same place he went with his X. UGH. My money. New family now, a rerun, new players this time. That is not normal. That is not something I would care to do, there are things, in patterns which one does daily that I am sure I do that I did for 20 years with my first, but the same everything?
I think that when I discussed not wanting to do those things that the X liked, he became disappointed like, she, the X liked them, how come you can”t. She liked to camp out in a tent in the woods, I liked a clean hotel room and a shower. I liked to camp but in a camper and not where there are bears. We had two older campers in my first relationship. But now I prefer a hotel.
So this summer he is probably going camping in a tent, in the woods, where there are bears, a new face along.
keeping_faith Re: He just “slept with her” because his wife pissed him off
They have no feelings. Sex? They have no feelings to feel sex do they? LOL. Lets hope so, for their future escapades.
keeping_faith Re: Although I found some comfort in knowing that it wasn’t me, my fault, my issue—. it angered me more. He talked like his relationship with her meant nothing. He just “slept with her” because his wife pissed him off. Well he did the same thing to me”. and probably to her,— and probably many others over the 26 years he was married. AND HE WILL AGAIN.
They will do it again, but remember they feel no happiness, no true pleasure. How can you have sex in that manner? With an S it seems to be that sex is ONLY a physical thing, a bodily response in the form of an orgasm, with no emotion of true pleasure mentally, not capable to feel happy, only relieved of the bodily response.
If that’s the case they have got it right back to them. I could be wrong. But I don’t feel Oxy’s skillet coming and Rune getting me on this one.
We are ahead on this, we have feelings and we can enjoy sex with true pleasure mentally and bodily with happiness, I hope. I speak for myself. LOL