By | April 10, 2008 30 Comments

The paradox of psychopathy, non-psychopathy, and evil

The blogger, Sir William, has a post ”˜What is evil? which employs what is a very common way of talking about psychopathy and evil.

Psychopaths do exist but they are not fully human: they are animals who lack one of the qualities which defines our species.

This is a very comforting explanation for those who have been on the receiving end of psychopathy. It seems to answer the question how could someone do something like that? Answer, because they’re not really a ”˜someone’. They’re actually and animal, not a human being.

How does this line of thinking account for evil committed by non-psychopaths?

When an ordinary person does bad things to another person they must, on some level, believe they are acting for a greater good, because to hurt without that excuse is insane. The greatest source of evil is not therefore crazy people, but sane people driven insane by a belief. Whether that belief turns out to be true or false is immaterial, it is the belief itself that causes us to act without empathy. Any time we cause pain in search of a greater good – for safety, for God, for profit – we have temporarily lost the one quality that defines us, and we cease to be fully human.

So, when a regular person commits an evil act they are actually insane and not fully human. But even our courts excuse crimes committed on grounds of insanity when a person doesn’t know the difference between right and wrong. It still leaves the vast majority of crimes and other evil acts are not of that nature. Each one of us knows very well when we do something wrong; we might rationalise it away, but deep down we know that we did it because we preferred doing the bad thing to doing the good thing.

I can’t go along with this animal/insane line of thinking. First, it does not accurately describe either human beings or animals! The fact is that human beings are capable of being evil (and good), animals are not. As Chesterton said: human beings are always the exception – we are always better than or worse than animals, never the same. Second, it is tantamount to saying there is no such thing as evil by full human beings.

The terrifying reality is that psychopaths are human beings and that we all commit evil because we want to and choose to, all of which is not to say that there’s no difference between the regular person and psychopath. It’s mind-bending and paradoxical, I know.

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Dr. Steve,

I get exactly the intended message, but it often seems that even animals have more empathy and understandable intent than a sociopathic emotional vampire. At least when animals kill, it is survival instinct – for food, safety, territory, etc… Usually not for the pure ‘evil’ sport or game of it. These ‘people’, to me, are a pure enigma – freaks of nature. They toy with people for the sport of it, completely uncaring of how it effects them other than to keep them hanging on in order to toy with them, use them in any means possible, and destroy their self esteem more and more. Truly a pathetic and sadistic existence to never really ever be able to bond with another, feel authentic love, share both your inner and outer world with another. To never feel that level of sharing and true commitment; but rather to revel in a superficial, shallow existence. Don’t misunderstand, I don’t so much pity them because I do believe that they understand right vs. wrong, but still CHOOSE to lie, cheat, steal, manipulate on/to those they know care about them. They are sick, twisted, evil freaks of nature.


also wanted to add: that when a ‘normal’ person hurts someone else, their conscience usually does not let them ‘get away with it’. A sociopath has not a conscience, which allows them to exact evil without reservation, looking completely innocent before, during and after – even though it is a CHOICE and they understand the emotional and/or physical consequences for their victim.

I think that when most ‘normal’ people hurt others, it is either unintentional, or in the midst of overwhelming emotions – hurt, betrayal of trust, etc… In a certain sense, provoked. A sociopath needs no provocation other than his or her own sense of greed, envy, pride, gluttony, lust, sloth, or anger. ‘normal’ people’s focus is on the other; where as the sociopath’s focus is ultimately and always on themselves.

newworld view

i think they hear us tell them how much pain they cause, but have no idea of the depths or how crippling it is, because they have never ever had any feelings. so what is pain to them, just a word that costs them nothing…..this is not a pass for them, just an attempt to understand for us



I just finished reading ‘Without Conscience’ by Dr. Robert Hare. In it he described how sociopath’s do not react with emotional responses like most people do; they do not have the same understanding of ‘pain’ that most people have. So, again, I don’t believe causing pain is motive but rather whatever they perceive they will get from their actions. In some ways, I can understand that thinking… I mean I am ambitious and motivated in my profession and at work – but still not to the point of truly harming someone else ; and most certainly in close family or romantic relationships – that is not how I view things…. Which is why I think it is so it’s hard for most of us to grasp how others can be that way.

Ox Drover

Trying to truly understand the mind of a psychopath, I think is truly as impossible for us as for them to comprehend ours.

I can observe the behavior of a dog, a cow, a horse, but I can not truly understand how they think, or how they feel, or what their emotions are. I have seen cows grieve for their calves when the calf is take away. I have seen dogs grieve for their masters, and grieve for the loss of companion dogs, or even grieve for the loss of a cat. I can observe this behavior and infer what the underlying emotion is in “human terms,” but I can’t really KNOW how they think and feel.”

I think we can observe the psychopath’s behavior, and in some ways infer how they think by the behavior the same way we observe animal’s behavior and infer their thoughts and emotions. But fully understand what it is to have no conscience? I don’t think we can understand what it is to have no conscience any more than they can understand what a conscience is.

A person who is born blind can never have a sense of color, or a person who is born deaf can’t have a sense of sound (only some vibrations) because they have no reference for understanding colors or sounds. The psychopath has no reference point for conscience. He sees “us” reacting to grief by crying, or reacting to other emotions, and he learns (as Hare says) he learns the words, but not the tune. He can simulate certain emotions, and learns by trial and error that some of these simulated displays will get him/her the reward that they want, but they are simply acting, they can’t feel it.

The joy that they seem to feel with manipulation and inflicting pain on others, in addition to also getting whatever reward they are after in terms of control, money, sex, I also don’t understand either. How could anyone enjoy seeing another person or an animal suffer? How could they have no compassion? I can’t comprehend seeing anything suffer and not feeling some compassion for it. Even an animal that I intend to kill (for whatever reason) I can’t tolerate the thought of that animal hurting or being afraid of death or injury. Yet, if an animal must be put down or killed for food, I have no problem doing this as long as it is done humanely.

I no more understand how my P-son thinks, or how my P-bio father thought. I know what some of their “goals” are or were, I know some of the things that they will or would do to get those goals acheived. I know that my P-son expresses pride in how “horrible his crime was.” But I still don’t know what that means, how that feels to enjoy hurting or killing someone, much less something, even an animal.

It is almost like we are trying to communicate on an intimate level with someone from another planet, or in two languages. They attach no real “meaning” to words like love, care, etc. because they don’t have corresponding brain waves and feelings to go attach to these words.

If you are hooked up to a lie detector or to an EEG, and if you are shown cards with words like love, hate, cancer, flower, etc. you have brain waves and reactions to these words, because you attach meaning to them. The psychopath does not, they have a “flat line” because there are no emotions attached to words of emotional impact to the rest of us.

That is a ‘hard wired” thing, as well as training. If you put these same words up, but in French (which I don’t speak) they would have no meaning for me either because I don’t know those words in french and attach any meaning to that series of letters or that sound.

I know that my son seeks “status” and adoration, but he also enjoys the chase, like the cat playing with the prey. It is more “fun” for him to put one over on someone who is a challenge–yet when he has completed it, he despises the victim for being weak.

My son knows what other people think is “right” and “wrong.” He knows that the law and moral code of our culture prohibits murder, yet he is proud that he did it. Right and wrong by our standards, he thinks, do not apply to HIM. Yet, it is wrong for you to lie to him, but okay for him to lie to you. It is okay for him to trick or con you, but it is not okay for you to trick or con him. It is admirable for him to control you, yet he refuses to be controlled or influenced by anyone else. Only superior physical force can contain his violence.

He has no emotions that I can detect other than hate, rage and frustration, or glee. But again I say, I can only guess at his emotions by observing his behavior. I can’t really know what or how he thinks.

How can he be anything except EVIL? How can he have any other choice? I have a choice to act honorably or dishonorably, and if I chose to act dishonorably I know that I made that choice. He doesn’t have a moral compass to violate. He apparently just does whatever he thinks is beneficial to his own goals without concern for the consequences on others. When, I on the other hand, make a choice, I generally chose to consider the consequences of my behavior as compared to my own code of moral conduct, and to consider the consequences to others. If I violate my own code of moral conduct, my guilty feelings kick in and tell me that my behavior is unacceptable. He doesnt appear to have this inner “brake” to keep his behavior in line with morality.

While his biology is “mostly human” he does lack this important component, he is defective in the quality that gives mankind a “higher purpose” in existence than merely “animal existence.” Maybe on an evolutionary level when food was scare and women not always available, this lack was actually a benefit in spreading his genetic material. For the psychopath to have survived and prospered, to have reproduce and passed on these genes that we now consider “defective” maybe at one time in prehistory it was a benefit.

In a civilized society it can be a benefit or can be a liability depending on many circumstances. Eliiot Spitzer obviously found his psychopathic traits beneficial in climbing the corporate and political ladder by climbing over the backs of others ruthlessly, but in the end, it brought his career to an end. My son on the other hand, didn’t use his outstanding intellectual talents and ended up in prison early in life, so for him it was a detriment.



Very interesting, yet sad, when you think about all the implications/consequences surrounding the S and their targets/victims. I am almost tempted to write “intended or not” at the end of that sentence, as it would seem that it would/could apply….?

What amazes me is that my S was able to perfectly describe the alleged abuse/neglect that he endured, during his childhood years….scenarios/details/specific dates along with the hurt/pain/emotions that they caused him. You will notice that I noted “ALLEGED” in my comment, though. I have met his parents and they are absolutely wonderful, hard-working Church goers, who live in a small countryside community.

While I have not ventured/inquired on “their side of the story”, I can almost bet my life that it would be complete fabrications/lies from the S….but how? How does a human mind conceive these type of scenarios/details/distortions? And, at what age is their brain “recreating” such distorted “realisms” to them?

The same would also apply (fabrication of detailed accounts of abuse) for the rest of their adult relationships, of course….which many of us know, is typical in the victims quest to “save” and for once in their lives, love these “poor souls”.

If we know that conscience is absent in an S/P, due to wiring/development of their brains, would other parts of the brain then be more developed, to enable these fabrications/distortions/lies? The creative side of the brain? Other parts of the brain (intellectual)? In my case, the S in my life was extremely intelligent….read a lot and was able to remember dates in history/quotes/etc in a flash.

Also, what research is being done to come up with treatment for these S/Ps? Is there one currently available…or close to it? If you could point me to books/research/sites on this matter, please do…very interesting.

Don’t get me wrong here….I have no intentions of going back with my S, in order to try to “figure this out/fix it”…. just curious. I know, all too well, that these are the exact reasons why I was targetted and become the victim to the S/P… compassion/my empathy/my caring/my love/my support/my belief in him…..something that, according to him, he had NEVER been given in his life, until ME. As I write this, I can just hear so many of you say, “Holy SH_T, this is what I was told” or “Do these people have a manual on this stuff, or what?”

Finally, I’d like to add that it is Day 14 (not that anybody’s counting,lol) in my newfound freedom….getting better every day….NC for last 2 days (no emails from him). Must of made myself pretty DAMN CLEAR on my last email to him. LOL.

This site is one of the blessings (especially you, OxDrover) for my road to recovery, along with my family/friends (who are so happy to have ME back) and newfound friends from other outdoor/wilderness canoe forums. The support that I am receiving is wonderful and humbling to me.



I see those with personality disorders in two ways. On a simplistic level, if a human being is likened to a jigsaw puzzle with all the pieces, I see those with PDs missing some fundamental pieces and then constructing all sorts of compensating and deviant behaviour to ‘appear’ as though they have a full deck. I also see them as a sub-culture.

Ox Drover

DEar Freebird,

Thank you for those kind words.

As far as the”alleged” abuse, it is one of those things that even though his parents appear to be good “church-going kind etc” YOU NEVER KNOW what is behind it–they may be like my mother and COVER it well. I am apparently the ONLY one who has ever seen the TOXIC side of my mother’s enabling. Anyone else in the world would view her as “angelic”—that is also part of the problem with Ps and their Proxies–you may be the only one to perceive they are EVIL—and if everyone else says they are “wonderful” and you are saying and thinking “they are evil”—is your “reality” the truth or is everyone else’s reality the truth? THAT IS CRAZY MAKING. I am finally realizing that it doesn’t matter if the entire world thinks my mother is Mother Theresa, I KNOW THE TRUTH, I have seen her take off the mask and the gloves. I have felt the blows she delivered as proxy for my P-son.

Freebird, I am glad that you are NC, and keep remembering that ANY contact will make things go backwards—even reading an e mail. If you must have dealings with him, for financial reasons, etc. keep them as limited as possible, and remember HE IS THE LIE.

As far as I know there is no real way at this point other than observe behavior to diagnose them, and until there is a way to diagnose them medically, find a drug that will replace the missing chemicals or to stimulate the receptors, the “cure” or “control” for them is way out there. I do have hope that in the future there may be one though, but it most likely needs to be administered when they are young before they have learned bad behavior=pleasure.

It is amazing to me the available medications for all kinds of mental illnesses and defects–if the people will take the medications. Sometimes they refuse and unless they are an immediate danger to themselves or others there is no way to legally force them to. That is why now that people with severe mental illnesses are walking the street unmedicated because as long as they are not an immediate threat, they must be released even if it doesn’t make SENSE because they have repeatedly quit their medication the 50 other times they have been released. But that is our law.

Glad, SO glad that you are doing well Freebird–(((hug))))and it will only get better as time goes on. Stay strong and use every support that you have and BE KIND TO YOURSELF.


Congrats on going no contact! It is a big step and hard to take. It is so great that you’re getting his toxic influence out of your life. Stay committed and strong. We know you can do it. 🙂

I have often considered the possibility that they might be more “gifted” in the lying/manipulation department. But I think that ultimately it is just a matter of “practice makes perfect.” Many authors and other creative people can create whole worlds in their stories and make up plausible plotlines for them. But those same people might not be able to lie well because it grates on their conscience and makes them feel guilty. I think our aversion to lying and deception makes us bad at it, not so much our inferiority in those areas. But who knows, they should do a study on this.

Anyway, keep reading here and keep posting to let us know how you’re doing. Your progress is inspiring!


I have been reading this blog for many months and the stories here are an inspiration to me. I finally broke off my relationship after four years of deceit and pain. The “no contact” aspect of healing is hard because this “person” is now a member of my daughter’s family by marriage.

It’s been very hard on everyone, especially with the close relation issue.

Glad I found this place in which to share my story and revel in my healing process.


I must say that I agree with loux2 where it says: “for the pure evil sport or game of it”
My CRAZY would do the most unbelievable crimes to myself and other people and then laugh at how stupid they were. He was such a con man that when they investigators from the DA’s office would listen to his calls from the jail they were in awe of his manipulation. He would call 4 different women,manipulate each one of them and the rest of his family as well. The Da told me that he had been doing this job for many,many years and had never heard anyone as good as him. He would manipulate money from people, not just hundreds but thousands of dollars. From business people to drug dealers. He did not care. He never worried, he just continued on… they were the idiots that believed his lies. One time when he had beaten me pretty badly and publicly, when he got out of jail. This was his apology…
“I didn’t intend for it to go that far. I knew you did’nt want this to be happening but it was like a game and I got caught up in it. So, you can make up with me and it will be like it never happened or it will be total hate. Which do you want?”
So, his beating me in front of 20 people was a game to him. My crying,bleeding, and begging him to stop was a game. he made me stand in the middle of the road with people passing by and staring and if I had to move out of the road he would beat me again. All the while he was laughing hysterically. It was a game to him. A PURE EVIL ONE.
Seriously, that does not sound like an animal I have ever met. It sounds like satan’s spawn to me.
The arrogance of this CRAZY gets worse because after he had beaten me, he called the police on me and told them I would’nt leave him alone. When they arrived and seen the shape I was in they arrested him. He was truly shocked that he was going to jail. Does that sound like sanity? He told everyone how I had him arrested!! Tried to get other people to come and beat me up. Where is the logic in any of this?
loux2 is 100% correct “they are sick,twisted,evil freaks of nature!”

Ox Drover

Dear Afliction,

I am so happy for you that your X is in jail, and that you had the support from the law enforcement. I know this is not in any way a “recompense” for all you suffered, but at least he is not attacking you OR anyone else while he is in jail.

Fortunately, jail is one place he will MEET HIS EQUALS and may not be quite so “uppity”—not that it will teach him anything, because it won’t. But in the meantime, YOU AND OTHERS out here are safe from him. God bless you my dear! You are a TRUE survivor, and a strong woman who can’t be beaten down.

Yes, the arrogance is amazing isn’t it? Unbelieveable to “normal” people.


This is kind of off subject, but I have to say that recently I had decided that I did’nt beleive in God. I kept thinking that I am in no way perfect but if there were a God. Where was he all those times that I asked for him to help me. Just recently I have remembered that when Crazy was arrested, the last day of his freedom. I was in the shower crying, not for me, but for him… and I remembered that I prayed to God and I told him that I just give the whole situation to him. I asked him to take control of it. Instead of what I wanted, but for HIS will to be done. The next time that I saw Crazy was at the bail hearing and the judge finally ordered no bail. I do beleive in miracles and until I really started thinking about it God had given me many signs, I just did’nt want to see them.
We are all survivors and strong people and no matter what you believe or who God is to you. I do beleive in miracles. I know that it is a miracle that I am alive. That my MR. CRAZY would’ve killed me. That I have God to thank.
I just needed to open my eyes.

Ox Drover


I can totally relate to what you are saying about “belief in God.” My mother had convinced me when I was not much more than a toddler, that God was an angry “parent” who could read minds. I remember feeling as even a young child (5-6 maybe) that I feared God–since all this chaos came up, however, I view God differently now. I no longer feel that I must “please” my mother in order to be close to God, and that unlike a potentially misguided or selfish human parent, that God is a loivng presence in our lives if we will let Him be.

Just as like any good parent who would not say “yes” to a child asking for something the parent knew was harmful, I believe that God also tells us “NO” and will not “positively answer” our prayers, no matter how fervently we pray, if those requests are against our best interests. I believe also, that just as a child can be defiant to even the best and most kind hearted parents, we can defy God’s desire for our health and happiness by going upon our own way.

I can look back in life at the things I fervently prayed for with great sincerity. One laughable one comes to mind. When I was 8 or so I wanted a German shepherd dog so badly. My mother would not allow me to have such a dog (we already had a mutt) and I read a story about a boy who was BLIND and got a German Shepherd guide dog, so for months, I fervently prayed to God to make me go BLIND so I could get a German Shepherd guide dog. LOL I was the most sincere that can possibly be imagined. Of course, God did not strike me blind so I could get such a dog, and I was very disappointed in God because he didn’t.

But I think that even as adults we pray for things about as harmful because we WANT whatever it is, not seeing or knowing that the thing we want is harmful to us. I never prayed for God to let my son get out of Prison, only that God would do what was “best for everyone concerned.” I knew I couldn’t read my son’s mind and heart, and I wanted him out just as much as I wanted that German Shepherd dog, but I didn’t trust my own judgment to know what was BEST. I still don’t, and only pray that whatever is BEST, as He knows is best, is what will happen and that I CAN ACCEPT THAT I MAY NOT UNDERSTAND NOW, BUT TRUST THAT IT IS FOR THE BEST.

I have absolutely NO doubt that if I had not fled my home, that the TH-P would have killed me. To this day I can’t say what “little voice inside of me” told me that I NEEDED TO FLEE, to go where he could not find me, but if I hadn’t fled, he would have killed me, that I found out FOR SURE after he was arrested. That was the PLAN FROM THE BEGINNING was to have him control or kill me. When I found out that he was taking money from my mother, the control part wasn’t going to happen, so the only alternative for their plot to succeed was for me to die before my mother did.

I think all of us at one time or another (victims) have wished for or prayed for the relationship with our Ps to “get better” but that prayer or wish never really happened, and it is FOR OUR BEST INTEREST THAT IT DIDN’T, and that our Ps are OUT of our lives…though we still may mourn for what we wanted, I think most of the people here on the board now, see that no matter how “nice” they were to us at some times, ultimately they are EVIL and being with them, even seeing them, is counterproductive to our well being.

I called the parole board again today to see if I could get the results of the “parole screening” (the board looking over the Trojan Horse P’s folder—which contains the letter I wrote to them) I also had a wonderful conversation with a great woman named Donna at the victim’s assistance group—she gave me some information that I didn’t know. In my state the parole board reviews the inmate’s file, then decides if they will get a hearing before the board, and if so, when. The most recent event was the TH-P’s file review. I will be able to find out the results on Tuesday of next week. (another phone call to a number at the parole board itself that Donna gave me) and IF AND WHEN HE HAS A HEARING, I am allowed to be present, and speak for 15 minutes—he will NOT be there at the time I speak. I can also present another written document at the same time. He can be held incarcerated as long as until August 2010. Then there are still two years he will be under supervision, AND he will have to register his residence, etc. for the rest of his life as a sexual offender, so will not just be able to “disappear” easily. As a sexual offender, failure to register is a felony in my state, requiring at least a minimally of a 4 yr sentence. Even a “technical” failure to register and adhere to the LETTER OF THE LAW will get him arrested.

I am fortunate that my state is quite good about victim’s statements, especially in a case like this one. I was very pleased with the concern that Donna showed and allowing me to tell my “insane” story to her. I’m sure that it isn’t the first “insane story” she has heard, and many much worse I also am sure.

With any kind of luck, I may be able to see that he is locked up at least as long as the law will allow, August 2010. That’s another two years and who knows what will happen in the meantime. For now at least, I am safe from the TH-P. Thank you GOD!


Is it possible to be a sociopath or something of that nature, even if you’re aware of the General Populations moral standing? Even if you’re aware that by their rules and laws what you do is wrong, and that you will be punished for it. Or do sociopaths simply not even take those things into consideration?

Ox Drover

DEar RemmyHun,

The answers to your questions are extremely complex. I think all the answers to those queistions are on this blog in the various articles. I suggest that you read the articles in the archinves and that you should find the answers you want.

Welcome…this is a good place, lots of knowledge and knowledge is power! Again, welcome!


Remmy: They don’t tend to learn through punishment. Ox-D is right about you finding a lot of insight by reading the archives here.

I actually think they get a thrill out of violating the morals, laws and expectations of others.


RemmyHun: My dealings with anti-social personalities is that they are the most fearful and insecure of human beings on our planet. Somehow since childhood their survival technique was to deny their emotions. How they got this in their mindsets is and has been the topic of debate. What are they thinking? Then they deny their insecurities and turn it into arrogance and control, looking down their noses at everyone who walks the planet. Because they refuse to acknowledge there is anything wrong with them, they continue their spiral down the abyss of non-existence entities of our world. They simply have no clue what it is to experience all of life’s beauty.


Healing Heart

Remmy – Everyone’s advice to read is great. You will find many answers, and much, much, much, helpful information. Read the articles, read the blogs, and then come back and tell us your story. It may take a while, but it is a treasure trove. I read and read and read for months before blogging. Not that you have to do that – there’s no “homework” here….but I can assure you that you will come out of the experience with many of your questions answered, and a great feeling of hope!


I’m a bit stuck really. Not because I am or have been the victim of such a person, but that I’ve pondered if I -am- such a person. It’s complicated, but in my light research I don’t think I fit the mold but rather am something inbetween. My above questions were in direct relation to myself.

Healing Heart

We could tell, RH. It’s the way you came online. People who are victims of S’s introduce themselves to the LF community in a fairly standard way. The way that you entered was much more in the manner of an S or N, than the victim of one.

I’m glad to hear you are questioning – that means that you care (hopefully). I hope you care about other people and how your behaviors impact them.


I remember my husband just one day out of the blue said “I am not evil.” He truly feels he is a good person. He will give you his last dime but he will also “stab” you later if he needs to.

But why would I think he would admit to being a horrible person. I remember asking him if his parents would be proud of him (they are both deceased) and he said yes they would be proud. He thinks they would be proud because he is working on his doctorate and making six figures. But yet he cheated on his wife, left his child, fathered a child during our marriage and he still thinks his parents would be proud.

All I can do is shake my head at him. There is no point of trying to reason with him. He will never seek treatment for his illness because he doesn’t have one. But that must seriously be hard to live that way constantly lying and manipulating people. I wouldn’t dare trade places with him for a million dollars.

It is scarey that he fits every criteria of a sociopath. I wish I would have found this site when I was dating him. My mom mentioned this disorder after he left me and that is how I discovered what it was. Maybe we need to get a public announcement out about sociopaths 🙂


Healing Heart, perhaps it’s just how you do things, but reducing my name/handle to two letters isn’t very welcoming. Is that because I didn’t introduce myself? Because I’m questioning if I am or am not a said sociopath? I’m just curious, honestly. It’s alright though. I hadn’t actually intended to continue any conversations here. It would be cruel of me in a way I guess. And I would be setting myself up, which I have no interest in. I’d forgotten i even sent in anything until someone googled me and mentioned it. I hope you all heal well. I’m not sure it applies to the sociopaths or not, but for myself. It’s all about action-reaction, so the best way to squash it, aside from leaving is to not feed into their prodding.


Nic: I’ve been sending suggestions in to Oprah. I intend to continue to do so until they take notice or ban me – LOL!

RemmyHun: whatever your circumstances, don’t get your knickers in a twist…

Healing Heart: I hope you don’t mind that I always shorten your ID to HH, apologies if so.


Healing Heart

Hey pb – I don’t mind being shortened to HH at all, in fact, I kind of like it. It seems friendly and familiar!

BTW – just read one of your other posts about your ex “faking” being in a monogamous relationship with you. What a told *sshole move. My ex S did that, too, while having sex (unprotected) with numerous other people…all the while assuring me we were monogamous. I’m so lucky I came out of this with health intact. He, on the other hand, DID contract an STD. But he doesn’t care – he keeps having unprotected sex with women without telling them. It’s unbelievable.

I’m so glad you are away from your ex S now. He sounds like such a classic lying, cheating, raging, psychopath.


You know the saying “perception is reality”.

There is something that runs deeper with these people that is truly evil. They ARE NOT insane. They make choices to do what they do which are driven by motivations that we do not understand. There is a commonality with all of our S’s. It is just difficult to recognize because they have deceived us so badly in so many different ways. The worst being the pretentious love they professed. And that fog of deception clouds our judgement for a long time.

It’s in their perception of things, people, life, assumptions. I can think of so many little examples….. The XS convinced himself that I was cheating, flirting, sleeping with other men. I wasn’t but he HAD to believe this for a number of reasons.

1. to reject me as he will everyone in his life who gets close to the truth.
2. to justify HIS sleeping with other women so that when I found him he then started telling people this is what drove him to it.
3. BLAME: It was ALL my fault. Juvenille as it seems to you and me…..he believes it.
4. He then surrounded himself with people who would be his new audience.

And it was OK by the way, that I found him in bed with a trashy biker chick 18 years younger, because we had been broken up for two days. Not to mention the house we were building and wedding rings that were purchased. And he did all this to such an extent that he sent texts to my son (a teenager) justifying his bad behavior. He left explicit accusatory letters at my home so my kids would find them. He called my friends asking them to help ME.

He went to great lengths to convince himself and others of how awful I was and what better way to do that than to invite these people (who he was trying to convince….his new victims….. my x neighbors, the x con and his x con brothers and their trashy sister) into his home (the one i built with him) give them a place to stay in a neighborhood they would never have driven through in their lifetime let alone lived in. And treat them like family, convince them of everyone elses sins, use them for the attention he so desparately needs then ditch them too. Even when he d&d’d the trashy girlfriend he still had “ownership” of her brothers, one of which still lives with him.

It’s what they do. It’s their belief system and a perception they create and work so hard to create for others allowing them to be in CONTROL, TO OWN, TO DEVASTATE PEOPLE, and THAT pleasure gives them power. They make these choices to destroy.

I do believe their corrupt belief system and bad perseptions and assumptions will come back to haunt them, either in that they will end up in jail or they will end up as the XS, unemployed, with STD’s, in debt, and now looks like a jackass with the same x neighbors he was trying to impress. FINALLY, they see it through the company he keeps.

Elizabeth Conley

Healing Heart,

Way to not get suckered. You rock!

It was fun to read as an S deployed standard ploys from the S playbook against you and made no headway.

Thanks. I needed that.

Healing Heart

Thanks Elizabeth! I’m learning. The S’s ploys in posts above actually seemed so transparent and pathetic and made me feel tired – so I swatted it away like an annoying gnat. Wasn’t hard at all – which shows progress…hanging out here and soaking up all the wisdom and shared experience has been really helpful. Thank you for the help and cheers!


HH – yup, I just did the “5 vials of blood, a complete physical, a pap, and a bottle of pee” day, and Boy Howdy! God help all eight of them if I have caught any sort of STD – anything. That’s one phone call none of them will want.


HH: if you haven’t seen the Drew Peterson interview thread, go look. He says at one point it got so that the joke was, “You had to lie to the girlfriend to go home to the wife” (or something like that). That’s exactly how it was with my N.
We split up for four months when I found out about the other women (he tried lying but that didn’t fly, so he finally said, “You don’t deserve the truth”).
I’m actually really happy that I went back as a bed-buddy. It wasn’t my intent to go investigator mode but when he said he still wanted me to not tell anyone, I got curious. Then when I heard he was supposedly afraid of me – well, that was it. I started paying real close attention.
If I hadn’t gone back, I’d probably be dead. I couldn’t stand not being able to get my normal head around his crazy one.
Within two weeks of figuring him out, I regained the 20 pounds I’d lost.

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