I do much couples therapy, and occasionally have had the interesting, if disconcerting, experience where one of the partners is a sociopath, or has significant sociopathic tendencies.
Unsurprisingly, it is always the nonsociopathic partner who is occasionally successful in dragging his or her sociopathic counterpart to counseling. The sociopathic partner, just as predictably, will have no collaborative interest in the relationship’s improvement. However, he or she may be sufficiently selfishly and manipulatively motivated to attend.
For instance, the relationship may offer conveniences the sociopathic partner does not want to see end. The nonsociopathic partner may have reached wit’s end and may really be prepared to end the relationship, arousing the sociopathic partner’s concerns that the gravy-train, as it were, may be over.
This can be the sociopath’s inducement to try to “patch things up with,” to “settle down” the nonsociopathic partner, in order to salvage the perks of the relationship. (The quoted phrases are meant to capture the sociopath’s condescending, self-serving thinking.)
The couples therapy environment provides little cover for the sociopath who, for this reason, will prefer generally to avoid it. The reason that sociopaths fare so poorly in disguising their sociopathy in a couples therapy situation is that, facing an aggrieved partner, the sociopath will struggle, and often fail, to produce responses of convincing sincerity and depth.
In other words, the sociopath’s fundamental defects of empathy and sincerity, in the emotional hotseat of couples counseling, are at risk of being flagrantly unmasked—sooner, typically, than in individual (court-mandated) counseling, where the sociopath, safe from the spontaneous challenges and disclosures of his or her abused partner, can more effectively misrepresent and deceive.
Couples counseling is inadvisable when a partner is a suspected sociopath for several reasons. Among them:
1) The therapist does not want to enable the belief (especially the nonsociopathic partner’s belief) that a nonabusive, honest relationship can possibly evolve with a sociopathic partner.
2) It is inherently humiliating for the nonsociopathic partner to make him or herself vulnerable to a partner whose only capable response to that vulnerability is exploitative. The therapist does not want to collude in this process.
3) There is the risk that the sociopathic partner, who is probably blaming and possibly vengeful, will use his or her partner’s complaints during the session as a basis, after the session, to punish him or her for having had the audacity to expose him or her.
This risk, incidentally, applies to any abusive individual in couples therapy. Narcissists’ abusiveness in this situation will arise most likely from their sense of entitlement—for instance that their partners owe it to them to always make them look, and feel, good (in private and public).
For sociopaths, exposure may be experienced as a sort of defeat: their mask is uncovered; their leverage as an operator—and with it their parasitical lifestyle—is threatened. Their game may be over. They may be mad.
One accidental benefit of stumbling upon a sociopath in couples therapy is the chance it affords the therapist (who recognizes it) to be a professional (and desperately needed) witness for the nonsociopathic partner.
The therapist may be in a position to provide the vulnerable partner, in subsequent individual sessions (after the couples counseling has been appropriately terminated), critical validation, information, and lifesaving support.
All of this presupposes the therapist’s ability to identify the sociopathic partner. When the couples therapist fails to identify that he or she is dealing with a couple in which one of the partners is sociopathic, the ensuing counseling process will undermine all of the nonsociopathic partner’s interests.
In failing to expose the sociopath, the counseling, by definition, will be abetting the sociopath. It will be structured on the false pretense that two reasonable clients are having problems with each other that they’ve co-created, which will not be the case. This false assumption will support the unequal, exploitative playing-field the sociopath has sewn all along.
For this reason—especially if your self-esteem has been battered in a relationship—I encourage you to explore assertively with a prospective therapist the extent of his or her experience with narcissistic and sociopathic personalities. Your inquiry should be met with absolute respect. A defensive response should rule the therapist out, as should vague, general responses, along the lines of, “Well, yes, I’ve worked with these kinds of clients. Is that what you’re asking?”
The answer is “no.” That’s not what you are asking. You are asking for a more substantive response, characterized by the therapist’s interest and patience to discuss in some depth his or her clinical background with the personality-disordered population.
(This article is copyrighted (c) 2008 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
WP,
I am sorry that you feel so negatively towards therapists. I’m a therapist and, no doubt, have had my own disappointments which I’ve shared on this site regarding the lack of knowledge in the field about sociopathy/psychopathy. It is extremely important that therapists and psychiatrists understand what it is, how to detect it and what the victim experiences. In addition, the recovery of the victim is unique and this must be addressed as well. Many a therapist fails to a)recognize sociopathy and b)treat victims effectively. But there is a reason for this that I will get to.
I do have to say, having been in the field for over a dozen years, yes, I have run into personality-disordered therapists. Yet I have encountered more sociopaths in other fields than in my own. In particular, I met too many a PDI working in law-enforcement and for the legal system when I worked with the NGRI (not guilty reason insanity) population. And I’m not talking about my former clients. You will find them in all fields and especially those where they can exert the most power. I don’t even need to go into detail about politics, the medical field or the money-hungry corporate world. But does that include the mental health field, yes. However, I don’t believe we are brimming over with PDIs more than anywhere else.
I work with WONDERFUL people who go more than the extra mile for their clients. BUT people do need to be aware. Just as you can’t necessarily trust that cop who is there to “protect and serve” you can’t blindly trust someone just because they come with the title of “therapist”. If they are giving you advice that you know is unethical then by all means leave and report them. No therapist should gloss over abuse or work with a client on ways to change their abuser or to change themselves to prevent the abuse. That is not OK. I, personally, have NEVER experienced that in the field. Therapy is not about saying what someone wants to hear. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. If that’s been your experience then I’m sad you encountered that. You don’t need me to validate for you how wrong that is.
I actually find my experience very much the oppostive of that. I have worked with clients for YEARS who choose to remain in abusive relationships. I call it as I see it and in those cases I am the one pointing out the abuse that either they can’t see or won’t acknowledge. I’ve had clients tell me that they know what’s going on but they’ve invested too much time to leave now. Or THEY believe they can make it stop. Or they know about the abuse but that’s the only family they’ve got. I am not shy about informing these clients that their mental health is not going to improve while they willfully remain in the abuse cycle. Often it is a struggle to work with them to get their self-esteem to a level where they have the courage to leave. Or even to break through denial so they finally acknowledge what’s really going on. Then the road to recovery begins.
But to validate your feelings, yes, the field is imperfect. But to the defense of therapists, I attended one undergraduate and two graduate schools. I learned about psychopathy at each institution but was taught about the “bad” cons who usually end up in jail. Those who’s behavior is overt and obvious. I was never taught about covert abuse nor how to detect it. I did not know what an “everyday” sociopath was until my own encounter. As far as I knew they presented like the court-ordered antisocials or NGRIs I work with. They present VERY differently than the man I met. A man who was no stranger to me from years ago and who was highly respected by my friends. One of whom got me together with the S. He fooled me, has fooled his family who believes he’s merely “depressed”, fooled his late wife plus a whole community in which he volunteers and participates in various athletic events. He was recently widowed when we met up again. So his “pity ploy” was believable. A very real “front” to cover a very pathological and abusive man.
So striking a nerve and saying what I have been wanting to shout from the hilltop, BECAUSE I’M A THERAPIST IS THERE SOME REASON I WAS SUPPOSED TO SEE WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IN MY LIFE DID NOT SEE? WAS I TO SEE WHAT EVERYONE HERE ON LF DIDN’T INITIALLY SEE THEMSELVES IN THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES? Isn’t it fact that when you’re caught in the web your reality gets distorted through the abuse and you end up thinking you’re the crazy one? Because my ex didn’t hit me was I supposed to see through his lies, manipulations and gaslighting? Was I supposed to know ahead of time about his “other” life up where he lives as we were in a long distance relationship? Did I somehow choose to PUT UP WITH THAT KIND OF PARTNER in a manner that was different that any one of us who, indeed, put up with it until something got us out of that web? NO ONE has a right to point a finger at ANY therapist who has been abused as we are, IN-FRICKIN-DEED, no different in our vulnerabilities than YOU! You are entitled to your opinions WP as I am entitled to mine.
My opinion is that you, WP, are completely out of line to blame the vicim by making any assertion that a therapist ,or anyone for that matter, “puts up” with abuse and thus by holding out that the abuser will change, in turn, fails to encourage others to break it off with their abuser. You don’t need a therapist to tell you how absolutely wrong that statement is. How disrespectful and tactless. If you have an issue with a particular therapist I encourage you to take it up with them. But by making that statement about therapistS you give way too much credit to any of us. We are humans, not gods. We are victimized more often than the norm because of who we are and what we do. WE are the one’s who hold onto HOPE when our clients’ own families give up and abandon them. We are the one’s who remain by their side and PRESERVERE through the storms our clients bring to our doorstep. We see through our EFFORTS and HOPE and PRESERVERENCE that CHANGE CAN AND DOES HAPPEN. Just as many, if not all of us, on LF held onto that hope in our own lives that those we fell in love with would change, so do therapists. Do you really think it’s a choice? If so why do therapists go to other therapists for therapy? If we are so talented to be able to see things so much more clearly in our lives than anyone else is with theirs, why don’t we just counsel ourselves? I HOPE I don’t need to answer that for you.
SO LET ME MAKE THIS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR. NO ONE CHOOSES TO BE IN AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP. THERAPISTS ARE THE #1 TARGET OF SOCIOPATHS BECAUSE FOR A LIVING WE HAVE CHOSEN TO SUPPORT OTHERS AND TO GIVE OF OUR TIME, ENERGY AND RESOURCES TO HELP OTHER PEOPLE. WE ARE BLEEDING HEARTS, AND AS SUCH, DO MORE GOOD THAN THE BAD THAT YOU HAVE IMPLIED.
Is there some reason that therapists are supposed to know more than the rest of the world who is also VERY MUCH in the dark about sociopathy? Do we not state repeatedly on here that our friends and family don’t even get it? It’s not exactly common knowledge. Yes it NEEDS to be. But do me a favor. Just one tiny favor. Please take your energy and negative opinions about therapists and use it to educate a few. Therapists aren’t ignoring something they DON’T KNOW ABOUT. I am a damn good therapist and I had no idea prior to my own experience what the hell a sociopath was.
Whatever you choose to do, I can promise you this. Every day I take my experience and knowledge into the office and educate co-workers and clients. Every day I turn my horrible nightmare of an experience into something positive by planting seeds. Every week I see my own therapist and spend a lot of the time educating her as well as analyzing myself so I can be my healthiest. I not only have a responsibility to myself to be healthy AT ALL TIMES, s-experience or not, but I have a responsiblity to EVERY client who walks into my office. Being a therapist is not a fluff job and no I do not advocate for anyone to walk in my shoes or ignore any concerns in their lives because I may have similar ones in my own. And guess what folks, I AM NOT A RARITY. I am part of the NORM.
I understand a need to vent about bad experiences and/or disappointments we have had regarding the mental health field. But for the majority of us who give our best to do what we do…please don’t generalize. Please don’t put therapists on some unjustifiable and untouchable level that dehumanizes us. And please don’t ever blame the victim, I don’t care if they’re a therapist or not. This post just absolutely breaks my heart and, yes, in that, it pisses me off.
We live in a country where those who work in the human services field make so much less money than anyone would believe. Our country puts it’s money into technology and the military and pretty much everything before the human services field. We are bottom feeders. Insurance companies pay us less than most other fields, if we are paid at all, as some only recognize a social work degree and not a counseling degree. Others will only pay for a limited number of visits when more are needed. Here in VA the standards for getting licensed are much higher and more expensive than in most other states. Yet we still choose to do what we do because the pay off in seeing someone make progress, of achieving their goals, of being able to hold down that job, or improve their relationships or live successfully everyday with schizophrenia or depression or bipolar disorder, etc., is worth it.
Maybe someday our country will start investing in it’s people rather than it’s industry and it’s reputation. Maybe then people will stop biting the hands that are reaching out to them to offer HOPE. Yep, that same damn HOPE that “made” me a victim of a sociopath and almost a corpse. I will not give up that HOPE nor my FAITH in mankind because it is the fuel for what I do. There are far more decent and wonderful people out there than there are sociopaths right now. Just like there are far more good therapists out there than bad ones.
“Lucy”
Dearest Oxy, have a WONDERFUL time with your son. I’ll be checking back in with you and all the great folks here in the near future. Thank you, so, so many of you, for being so supportive and loving to me and one another. This site is such a gift. I’m taking a little respite. If you hear from Henry please tell him that I’m thinking about him and cheering him along.
We can re-build those rafts when we need them, right Oxy? No need to keep dragging it up this mountain anymore? Gosh that post hurt my feelings more than I can express. I suppose it’s a bit obvious by my response. Took my breath away. I haven’t cried this hard in a long time. I have been doing so well and need to keep on that path.
I know nothing written about therapists here is directed at me. I do. But yet it is so personal. I didn’t know. For the love of God I didn’t know. I thought he was the love of my life. I thought he really loved me. I almost lost my life, almost gave it away and he wanted me to die. One day he’s asking me to spend the rest of my life with him, the next he’s journaling about ways to kill me. God I didn’t know what was happening. I couldn’t think clearly anymore. Couldn’t see clearly. I couldn’t eat. I couldn’t sleep. I stopped talking to my friends and family. I had to stop counseling others and find a safe place to get help away from my clients and colleagues. I couldn’t do it anymore. I lost what I love the most. My heros who walk into my office everyday and fight to make it. I couldn’t help them anymore. I couldn’t help myself. I was so confused and so ashamed. Oh God this hurts. What a trigger.
I can imagine the joy my ex got at seeing the wretched mess I became. What victory. Made the therapist think she was crazy. He told me this would happen. Told me I’d have a hard time forgiving myself. I just can’t be here right now. It’s starting to feel unsafe. God I hate triggers. I know no one intended it but it hurts like hell. I am a damn good therapist. My greatest flaw- I have an overabundance of faith in people. My greatest gift- I have an overabundance of faith in people. I can’t lose that. It is who I am. I can be wiser with it now but that faith in mankind is what makes me a damn good therapist. Not perfect, but human. I’ve never even pretended to be perfect. How the hell was I supposed to know? Why do people think we are to blame because we don’t? I’m no different than anyone else. We’re no different than anyone else. No one here saw it right away so why attack us for being human? I’ve attacked myself enough for all of us. I’ve bore enough guilt and shame and blame for every therapist that failed any of us. But it was not intentional. Neither was it intentional in failing myself. I’m sorry.
I’ll preface this by saying that I was only with my psychopath for less than 6 months. He was of the classic conman variety.
At some point he mentioned that he had been to counselling. (I remember asking him if this was related to his marriage break-up, to which he responded in the negative.)
In (what I now can see was) a very arch response, he commented that they just “didn’t know what to make of me, just couldn’t classify me”. He said this with quite a degree of triumph and glee.
Well, within a couple of months of extricating myself from “the fog” I certainly WAS able to “classify” him. I definitely think now that he KNEW he was a psychopath, and was taking great delight in observing others not being able to figure this out.
While I didn’t know what to make of it at the time, I now see the significance in the fact that he had a collection of psychology books on his shelf. And this was a man who was decidely low-brow in general demeanour, had few books, never read that I saw, and was generally disdainful of things intellectual (except of course in the very beginning when he was most heavily faking everything!).
What is interesting to me is this strange juxtaposition of general lack of education (and utter incompetence at getting on with life in a generally acceptably successful way) with this “cunning” that is able to encompass somehow the fooling of psychology professionals – AND, not to mention, non-professionals in this field like me who are highly intelligent, highly discerning, and in the aftermath, shocked to the core that I could have been a victim.
Takingmeback,
Or Lucy, as the case may be. I wish I could print out your reply to WP, go back in time, and shove it up the wazoos of the two detectives who blamed ME for not seeing the criminal acts of my ex-P.
I had to endure being shouted at about how the detective was tired of “you women” who “wait” until “it becomes a state problem.” I, like you, was totally fooled. I had no idea. I thought he was the complete opposite of what he turned out to be, because that is what he presented to me.
I share your frustration. It seems nearly half the world blames us victims for “not seeing,” and the other near-half blames us victims for “making up lies about such a nice person.” The rest are here on LF.
Here’s a good question… What are people thinknig when they drag, pester, or beg their “partner” into couple’s therapy?? I mean if the person is reluctant to go in the first place, what good will the therapy do?
And if your relationship is so bad you feel you need couples therapy, and your partner is so disinterested that they don’t even want to go to couple’s therapy…
How good a relationship is that?
I would never want to be in a relationship where my partner wasn’t at least equally interested in the relationship.
Seems to me that a lot of people who go to couple’s therapy really need just to re-evaluate their worth to themselves, and realize they deserve better than a lonely relationship.
I realize society puts a great deal of pressure on people to pair up. But even in the most single-hostile environments, it’s much nicer to be single (even if to just have options), than to be so lonely in a relationship with someone with a serious personality disorder.
takingmeback:
Please don’t put words in my mouth (so to speak). Of your whole post, I’m at a loss to even know how any of this responds to my post. It’s like we’re in 2 completely different books.
Obviously you’re upset, so I’m going to try to ignore what seems like attempts to insult me. Apparently there’s been some misunderstanding you’re reacting to, and I don’t know if there’s anything at all I can do for you in that regard.
But I will try to clarify.
I never made a sweeping generalization about the profession.
Perhaps I should’ve been more specific.
I am concerned about the rose-coloured glasses people seem to have regarding therapy for certain things – specifically relationships.
I’m not anti-therapy at all.
I just think that couples therapy, marriage counceling, and going to therapy to fix a relationship is a pie in the sky hope. I think expecting to fix relationships by means of therapy is an unrealistic expectation on therapists. And an unrealistic expectation some therapists put on themselves & their profession.
What Steve Becker said about a therapist doing better to help the patient examine their responses to a jerk’s behaviour (I’m paraphrasing, sorry)… than to label the jerk…
I think all too often the therapist and the patient, perhaps both with unrealistic expectations, or perhaps the patient at cross-purposes with the therapist… It winds up being a relationship coaching thing.
And point blank, I don’t think there’s anything one person can do, not do, do better, do less, to make another person like them more or less, or make another person behave differently toward someone.
There’s nothing you can do to control other people’s feelings & behaviour, I believe that wholeheartedly. Even holding a gun to their head, they still make their own choices.
I really believe a relationship works and is productive for all parties, or it doesn’t and it’s not… and you can’t put a square peg in a round hole, no matter how much benefit you think would come of it if you could manage it. Some people just don’t mix, and they need to stay in seperate bowls. This is especially true, of course, when it comes with ordinary people trying to mesh with sociopaths.
The only way I could see therapy working to make a relationship better is if the patient is actually doing detrimental stuff they ought to stop, and therapy helps them with that (not the relationship directly).
For example, if the reason you’re having trouble in relationships is because you scream & shout at everyone, then yes, you may see an improvement in your relationships if you get therapy for your hostility issues. If you’re having a problem in your marriage because you have a gambling problem and have spent all the family’s budget on your online poker addiction, then getting therapy for the gambling problem might indirectly help your marriage.
But if the reason you’re having relationship issues is because the other person in the relationship is behaving in detrimental & destructive ways or mistreating you… Well how could therapy for YOU possibly remedy that?
Well, only if YOU change – either learn to like the mistreatment, or get away from the relationship.
What other advice can anyone, therapist or not, realistically give?
Even dragging the person into therapy to get help for it will do no good, because a therapist is just a human too – they’re just as incapable of making someone else behave differently. Therapists are not gods or angels & have no magic wands to control other people.
But I think sometimes, unfortunately, some therapists think they can – just as some people, regardless of their profession, labour under the illusion that they can exert control over things they can’t realistically control. It’s a human temptation, however irrational. And we’re all vulnerable to that unreasonable course from time to time. Some more than others.
And it’s not about relationships. It’s about everything. It’s the human condition.
Even multiple advanced degrees in psychology isn’t going to levitate you out of the human experience.
And expecting therapists to be floating outside the human experience is a recipe for disaster & disappointment.
When a therapist labels a patient’s boyfriend as “commitment phobic”, that naturally gives the patient the idea that the boyfriend does love them, they just have fear, and then they commit themselves to helping the boyfriend overcome that fear. FIrst, even if they are commitment phobic, and that’s their only problem… a romantic partner is the very last person to councel them and take a theraputic role in trying to get them to overcome a phobia. It’s inappropriate, and puts the relationship on a course of inequality – the woman becomes the boyfriend’s coach instead of his partner. If he’s not commitment phobic, and just incapable of commitment (a sociopath or whatever) – then it’s just as hopeless.
I think the point that Brenda was making was that if she knew he was a sociopath, and how hopeless that is, she wouldn’t have wasted her time trying to get him over his phobia. And what Steve Becker’s point is, that giving any label at all is tricky and potentially wrong, and it’s better cost-effectively, to come at it from another angle.
As for law enforcement. It’s a no-brainer that it would be a profession that would look very appealing to sociopaths & narcissists. Just like Mount Everest, by its very nature, attracts an inordinate proportion of sociopaths & narcissists.
Any profession, movement, or group that affords any type of authority, prestige, notoriety, power, etc. (or even the appearance of those things), is going to be particularly attractive to sociopaths.
Sadly, I think we’re at a place in society where mental health professionals are starting to appear as people with power – probably more power than they actually have… And with vulnerable patients, that profession, too is, I believe, becoming more & more appealing to someone of a narcissistic or sociopathic persuasion.
I would be willing to bet, if there was a reliable study done, that the ratio of narcissists & sociopaths is much lower in professions dealing directly with waste management or sewage treatment. At least none of the clever ones without police records. LOL
I had decided to try to help her and see my Therapist, after him trying to disscuss her childhood and getting no responce he then advised me to be very aware of what was going on around me and make notes as time went on we kept going to him he started to ask me questions of certain things that were going on, i told him it reminded me of the movie Fatal attraction, his eyes grew, while going to borders i picked up a book called getting help, i started to read it and a light went off, i should have gotten a hold of this book last year and saved myself alot of heartache.
Dear Takingmeback, AKA “Lucy,
((((Lucy))))) I think he hit a trigger, darlin’, but you know, you have some valid points, and frankly he has a few, though I would NOT say that thre is a HIGH percentage of PDs in therapists, there are some. I worked for a therapist/office manager who was definitely PD’d–I turned In my notice after the first rage she went off on at me.
What I am hearing from you Lucy, my dear, is a bit of projection about how you are feeling you SHOULD HAVE KNOWN–Sweetie, that is the SAME STICK I used to beat the crap out of myself, but it is NOT VALID.
We (you and I ) are HUMAN…so get over it….we make poor decisions sometimes, poor judgment, don’t use the knowledge we have, do denial, fail to see things we probably should have, have chemicals in our brains, have emotions, want to believe the best in people, want to believe that people can change for the better, we are caring, loving, forgiving people who do our best to be “nice to others”—-and we “gets tooked” sometimes.
Sometimes I DID FEEL ARROGANT that I wouldn’t be taken, that I was BETTER than all these other people–women who went back over and over to abusive relationships with their BFs and Hs—BUT IN MY ARROGANCE I didn’t realize that I was doing it to my son, I was letting HIM abuse me, over and over and over and over. “Informed Denial” as Aloha says. I had that Denial routine down PAT. I was good at it.
I actually had a hard time forgiving myself for that arrogance. A BIG HARD TIME, but you know I surmise that your biggest hard time in forgiving yourself is for BEING HUMAN, for being gullible. At the same time you seem to be indicating that you should not be “held to a higher standard”–HOW COULD YOU HAVE KNOWN? You Couldn’t have known. You aren’t psychic I don’t think, and neither am I. I agree, neither of us should be denigrated for being HUMAN.
I’ve actually had “friends” (now X-friends) say to me “How could someone as smart as you be so badly fooled?” CAUSE I’M A FREAKING HUMAN BEING, DODO!
My dear “Lucy”—QUIT BEATING YOURSELF UP—YOU COULDN’T HAVE KNOWN. Now you do, and now you can spread that knowledge to others that you work with and to your clients. yOU KNOW THAT I HAVE THE HIGHEST RESPECT AND ADMIRATION FOR YOU. You are a wonderful, insightful therapist and I think are a great asset to LF and the other people here (me for one, for sure) so be good to my friend, “Lucy,” or I will have to get my Iron skillet out again! ((((hugs)))))
Oxdrover: I’d swear none of you read my original comment at all! LOL
I wrote:
“Add to that the fact that I think there are more sociopathic (or otherwise disordered) therapists than anyone realizes.”
I did NOT write that I think there’s more disordered therapists than in any other professions.
I DO think there are more sociopaths & narcissists in some professions more than others. I think therapist/psychologists might be higher on the narcissist list than say, rubbish collectors. But I wasn’t even talking about ratios or statistics in my first comment.
It’s like nobody read that sentence completely – I said “MORE THAN ANYONE REALIZES” – not more than lawyers or more than police officers. I said “more than anyone realizes”. Or at least I mean more than MOST people realize.
My point is that I think people often FORGET that therapists can be sociopaths too! Or have issues that interfere with them – maybe only at certain times, but it’s there.
I really think most of the time people assume that psychologists are somehow levitated above normal human frailty. They put them on a pedestal, so to speak.
Therapists, I believe, are just as likely as any other human, to get cancer, behave co-dependently, fall in love with an alcoholic, get an ingrown toenail, be in a car accident, or have issues.
They can also be sociopaths.
Just because I say that isn’t the same thing as saying all, or even most, therapists are mentally ill disfigured amputees with ingrown toenails enabling drunken spouses. 😉
Sorry, WP, I did read it, and I agree with you “there ARE more than people realize”—we are NOT elevated (mental health profession in general) above others, we DO have PPDs and BPDs in our midst.
You do have some valid points, and I defintely agree with much of what you say. My main point to Takeingme back, was about her REACTION to your post, it was a “trigger” for her—not that you said any thing bad, but because of the place SHE was in, it upset her. Triggers are not always bad things, either, because they show us that we have some UNRESOLVED ANGER to deal with.
She and I respect each other and I wanted to comfort AND confront her about this. She would have done the same for me I would hope. She is a great lady and a wise one, but we ALL have problems dealing with the aftermath of our wounds.
FACING those things in a safe and loving environment, like here, is a good thing. I’m not in anyway criticizing you or what you wrote at all. Naive or un-seeing therapists can do a lot of damage. Also, people who are FORCED into “therapy” seldom (ever?) get any benefit out of it, and actually Ps have been shown to become more cunning and learn the “words” that go with “healthy” to turn against their victims after therapy, i.e. it makes them WORSE. Many times too, they make the victim appear to be crazy while they are the “cool, calm and collected” member of the pair, which is AWFUL for the victim.
The hardest part, I think, for us medical andmental health professionals in admitting that we have been conned, is to stop beating ourselves up and EXPECTING SUPER HUMAN INSIGHT in ourselves. We are just as, or possibly MORE SO, vulnerable to the con. We can see it many times in others, but NOT IN OURSELVES. That’s the “catch 22”—I know that I beat the crap out of myself for a long time, but I am now giving myself permission to “be human” and to “be mistaken” or to “make poor choices.” I have never had any problem with allowing others to be “human” —-just me. Not that I thought I was always right, I knew I wasn’t, but I EXPECTED ME TO BE.
There was also a time when I was arrogant about women who went back and back and back, I just “didn’t get it.” NOW I do get it and I am ashamed of my own arrogance. It, however, was a human failure because I didn’t get it, but now that I do I have “repented” of that arrogance, and I have also quit beating myself up about it. I destest arrogant people (as most of us do) and here I WAS ONE. We all have to accept our own faults, and our own behaviors that allowed us to get sucked in, or to stay in, or to go back, and FORGIVE OURSELVES as well as get over the bitterness in our hearts for t hose predators that hurt us—and learn to be more cautious and to NEVER TRUST ANOTHER P and to be able to spot Ps before they hook us.
“Pride goeth before a fall” and I was sure proud and arrogant that I would never let my husband/BF etc hit me, but I let my SON hurt me over and over and over. Realizing that was a HUMBLING EXPERIENCE for me, and I needed to be humbled, so that I could “get it” and have more compassion for the rest of the victims. “Walk a mile in their shoes” It was a good lesson for me.
OK, I didn’t sleep at all last night so here I am at home trying to sleep quite unsuccessfully. So long for the respite. I need something to do that doesn’t involve staring at the tv or reading another book.
WP, I reread your post and I wish I had paid more attention to your first sentence.
“Just anecdotally, reading about this on the internet for years, and having known a couple of people with sociopathic (or otherwise abusive) partners” ”
This put it in perspective for me. Whether you believe me or not I did not put words into your mouth nor was that any attempt to insult you. What comes across to me in your posts IS honestly hurtful. It sounds very ignorant and that is not implying that you are stupid. But I don’t think you get it at all. Most simply because you have very little idea what we’ve been through.
By that first sentence I surmise that you’ve never had an intimate relationship with a sociopath. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I woud believe that if you had, you would not make any satements such as this:
“But no, therapists often PUT UP WITH THAT KIND OF PARTNER THEMSELVES, and continue to hope their disordered partner will change, etc.. So why on earth would they encourage their patient to break it off.”
Ouch! Do you maybe, sort of, kind of have anything to back that up? Some stats lying around somewhere? You truly believe we, therapists, often do this? Let me reassure you. I, for one, do not look to date a sociopath/psychopath. In addition, I prefer to keep my work at work.
Saying that a therapist or anyone PUTS UP with an S/P assigns blame to the victim whether you meant it or not. That is the most grueling thing to experience. For anyone to think we saw it and just ignored it. Do you think we’re daft? Surely you don’t. So please understand that is how it comes across with statements like that. And please be careful with your words when you’re blogging to a group of people who’ve been victimized.
Please also be more cognisant of saying things such as “But no, therapists often…” You can think or believe whatever you choose. But as a therapist working amongst them year after year, I don’t have the same experience or perspective as you. I can say that I do not find that they put up with disordered spouses. On the contrary, my colleagues have very wonderful spouses. Are we still #1 targets and easy prey? Yes. But I don’t know any who’ve married or PUT UP with an S/P. I didn’t as I broke up with my ex. Only you don’t break up with an S/P and get away easily. Even then he wasn’t obvious. Before my experience I would have thought it must be. Now I can see how people get brainwashed without even knowing it’s happened. I see why countless people commit suicide each year as a result of these relationships. I don’t expect you to get it. But I’m asking you to respect something you’ve never experienced and be careful not to say therapists or anyone else “often do” anything. We are not gods and neither are you. No one here’s omniscient or omnipresent so to make that claim is invalid.
I honestly find you very fortunate not to have had the experience that most of us here have. I would never wish it on anyone. Not ever the ex himself. I’m not a sadist nor a masochist. I’m a very confident, independent and intelligent woman. I have never felt a need for a man but thought it a nice addition to my life should I meet someone and fall in love. If you knew me, you’d know that I don’t PUT UP with anything. Was I in denial, yes. It’s a defense mechanism and it these situations it does a great deal more harm than good.
Two more things if you’ll so oblige. The next sentence.
“And I don’t think it’s fair to defend the therapist who fails to recognize the disordered partner they’ve never met, who’s been described to them in intimate detail. I mean come on. I don’t need to see the duck to recognize one that’s described to me. No one expects a formal “diagnosis”, but it should be pretty obvious that the person isn’t normal, isn’t healthy – and I don’t think it’s breaking any medical ethics to inform their patient the behaviour isn’t normal.”
It is absolutely NOT breaking any ethics to point out abusive behavior to clients. But here’s the twist, we’re talking about S/Ps. Not only is the field not nearly as aware of them and how to identify them BUT it is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT for anyone to do so. Usually the victim is already disillusioned and in their web before they have a chance to see it. They are bonded, in love and have been conned by a master manipulator. These are not men or women like you see on Cops. These are people who don’t necessarily yell or hit. They appear like you and me. They “blend” in quite well. And their tactics incudes methods used in brainwashing. I could not see it. So not only do we have clients coming in for therapy who are a wreck and falling apart mentally and physically but they often a) don’t know what’s happening or b) have been convinced they are the crazy one. So based on the lack of info in the field and the state of most victims, I do defend the therapist. If a client outrightly states what you posted, then hell yes, you point out the abuse. But that is not always the case and especially with the S/Ps.
I told a psychiatrist what was happening to me and I thought I was losing my mind. You know what I got? Diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder! I do not have Bipolar Disorder. I was later diagnosed with PTSD. But I was a fraction of who I was before the S/P and of who I am today. I reviewed what I told the doc and guess what? There’s no way she could have figured it out with what I said. I hadn’t even figured it out yet. I wasn’t sure what was him and what was me. He is highly narcissistic. I truly started to believe that I was him! But by the grace of God I am not. You think who in their right mind would think that? How could a therapist be convinced she had a disorder she doesn’t have? Easy. Date a highly narcissistic psychopath. So I do defend the therapist unless it is outlined in black and white. Which it has never been before to me.
In fact, now I’m the one who knows the questions to ask and I’m finding myself directing clients here to LF to check out the information when I get a hunch. You know, sadly enough, those few have come back and confirmed it. Their worst nightmares came true. At least now they are have an idea of what’s happened and that truly it’s not them. These folks did not come in reporting abuse. I observed them in session, tracked their symptoms and obtained info about their situations and low and behold. However, I also have the antisocials and narcissists who are trying to convince me that it’s their spouses and family members that abuse. But being in their presence week after week and seeing the patterns and talking to family members. Not true.
So you agree that we are not perfect, don’t have magic wands and are fallible. Then please don’t say you don’t defend the therapist who doesn’t see it. Again, I suppose you’re coming from the idea that victims come in with these full fledged reports. Again, not my experience.
And finally,
“Heck, the therapist doesn’t need to diagnose the romantic partner, to point out that if the patient has asked this partner to change, and they haven’t, to encourage the patient to take care of themselves.”
Um, and we do. Individual therapy is about the individual client. If they bring “someone else into the session” by focusing strictly on them, we usually either invite them to bring that person with them (which I know you believe is a waste of time but , again, my experience has been very different than to call it a waste) or stay focused on the client. You cannot counsel someone who’s not there. You cannot assess someone who’s not there. You cannot observe interactions between two people when one is not there. We go by the client’s self-report and they are the focus.
So did I read your post as insulting to therapists, yes. I am a therapist and I obviously believe in family, couples, group and individual therapy. Naturally we will disagree on this. As a survivor of a psychopath did I find offense to your post. Again, yes. We are not in two different books. We are in two different chapters. You’re pre-psychopathic experience and I am post. May, God-willing, you never make it to my chapter.
I have tried to be as specific as I could. Again, I am not putting you down. I do not believe you are were trying to put me down either. I hope, perhaps, this post will shed some light for you. You can, honestly, bash couples therapy all you want. You can bash the whole profession. But please don’t write as if you know what we do, who we are and what our intentions are. Please don’t throw a psychopath into that mix and place further blame either. That’s all I’m asking.
And as I have been in the profession for years, I do not know if psychology is attracting PDIs or not. Do you have any information regarding that? If so, I would be interested to read about that. I agree that the mental health field is a dangerous place for them to be. I would truly like to know if this is, indeed, happening more often now. I have not met many along my way.
In fact, I really would like to know what your experience has been with therapy and therapists for you to have formulated your opinions and beliefs. That’s always helpful to understand why you have come to the conclusions you have.
Peace,
“Lucy”