By | July 31, 2009 89 Comments

We Can Only Do What We Can Do

By Ox Drover

I was thinking about a blog post and reply that had gone on between another poster and myself on Lovefraud about trying to “help” others see the “light” and get away from their own personal psychopath.

I mulled over what I had done in my life in trying to “fix” others by coming up with a solution that they could take to ease their pain from their prior bad choices. I would wrack my brain up and down, left and right, to try to come up with a “plan” that would help these people “fix” whatever mess they got into of their own free will.

Some people would call this “co-dependent” and others would call this “enabling.” Whatever term you want to apply to it, I called it “helping,” but the bottom line is that this behavior on my part was not “helping” these people, it was me trying to take responsibility for the consequences of their bad choices or bad behavior.

Many times these people would say “That’s a good idea, but ”¦” and would not take my very best suggestion that I was sure would work. So, as a consequence, I would get frustrated at them or angry with them for being so stubborn or stupid! (How arrogant of me!)

Other times, they would take part of my wonderful solution and it would not work because they didn’t use all of it, and then they would get mad at me for giving them such bad advice. It was all my fault because it didn’t work and they were still hurting.

The point is, that they got into the fix in the first place, and it is not my responsibility to get them out. I am not “helping” them by trying to take over running their life. I can, if they are willing, support them by saying “Boy, you must be feeling bad/sad/mad about that situation.” That is validating their feelings and is a true statement and is supportive.

Suggestions on Lovefraud

Even here on Lovefraud when we give “advice” about what we would do or what idea we think would work, it should be on our part, a suggestion if asked, or noted as our opinion. We all must make our own choices, our own decisions, and live with the consequences. Lovefraud is a supportive place, and the people here are very validating because they too have lived through the chaos with a psychopath in one way or another.

Sometimes we have bloggers come here for advice and we freely give it, and those bloggers do not take our advice, they make excuses for their dysfunctional relationship with a presumably dysfunctional or psychopathic person and stay with or go back to that person, or in some cases, go into another dysfunctional relationship. Of course we are disappointed that that was their choice, but it was their choice. We have not failed when they do not take our advice. It is not our fault that they did not get away from the danger.

We can still feel empathy for these people, but we should not feel that we are failures because our compassion and/or advice was ignored. We can only do what we can do.

Can’t save the unwilling

Back “before enlightenment” I used to feel really badly if my advice was refused or didn’t work, but I think I have turned a corner in my compassionate nature and in my desire to assist or help someone in their recovery from entanglement in dysfunctional relationships. I no longer feel that it is my responsibility to “save” someone if they are not willing to give it all they have got as well.

To use an analogy of swimming, my late husband was a very experienced swimmer and a lifeguard certification instructor. He had a situation once where he had a victim trapped inside a turned over helicopter in the water. Every time he would swim down to try to rescue the man, the man was hysterical and kept trying to pull him under with him. My husband quickly saw the situation and went back to the surface until there were no more bubbles coming out from the water. Then he went back to get the unconscious man and brought him to the surface. If my husband had tried to rescue the man while he was still consciously fighting him, they would have both died. By waiting until it was safe to do so, my husband saved them both.

When we are trying to “save” someone who is floundering in the flood waters of a miserable and dysfunctional relationship and they are asking for help, yet fighting that help at the same time, sometimes we can only wait until they are no longer fighting the help we offer them. We must firmly set a boundary that “I will not allow your problems to drag me under as well.”

My late husband wanted to rescue that man, but he was not willing to let the man pull him under as well, and he set a boundary. “Until you stop fighting me, I am not going to come back.” What would my husband have felt if after he did pull up the man and the man could not be revived and he was dead? I don’t know, of course, for sure, but my bet, knowing my husband, is that he would not have spent the rest of his life grieving for not having rescued that man in time. He would have said, I think, “I did the best I could, but I couldn’t let him pull me under and drown me as well.”

I have tried unsuccessfully to rescue my psychopathic offspring and my enabling maternal DNA donor, and for years let them pull me under the “water” until I nearly drowned in the process. Every time I would “fail” to rescue them because they fought me tooth and nail, I felt guilty, I felt inadequate, I felt that I had failed, and threw myself right back into the water of despair. Now, I realize I can’t rescue them against their wills, and I am no longer willing to risk my own life to try to do so. I can’t help them, and they won’t allow me to rescue them. I no longer feel disappointed, sad, grief-stricken or inadequate because of that. They have the choice to swim if they want to, and I have the choice not to risk my life in a futile attempt to save them from themselves. The best part of it all now is, though, that I no longer castigate myself for “failing” to rescue them. I no longer feel guilty or inadequate for their choices. I can let them be responsible for themselves and I am responsible for myself. That is freedom; that is peace. We can only do what we can do.

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Thanks Oxy- this writing from you just hit the spot! Like a sermon to my ears.


“I no longer feel guilty or inadequate for their choices. I can let them be responsible for themselves and I am responsible for myself. That is freedom; that is peace. We can only do what we can do”

That says it all, thanks for the post. Very timely, now trying to provide empathy, when others who you were trying to help, seem to think your only in it for yourself…now that is difficult.

Staying away from it shuld be our answer now. If and until they ever want us in their lives again.


I was taught in life saving in the sea or water, to never to approach a hysterical victim head first, I was actually taught to keep a distance and use a prop if available, and if none were to kick to knock out a hysterical drowning victim in order to save them… but that was the 80’s… I wish someone had knocked me out and saved me, I think it might have been the only way.


Not sure if i could have actually done that… maybe if our survival depended upon it…


Blueskies, I was taught the same thing (in the 50’s) to approach a hysterical victim from the back, never ever from the front. (I had lifeguard certification.) But, that was in open water, not sure if it would apply for a trapped victim in a helicopter underwater. Oxy’s husband probably did the only right thing.

I have a different opinion to Oxy’s about giving “help” to a DV victim. Most victims are not looking for help, but for validation. And not all DV victims had made bad choices. When someone (not just Oxy) came up with “plans” to help me, I felt as controlled as I had with my Ex. Besides, most of the plans others came up with were plans I had already tried and had already failed in the attempt. I always felt the other trying to “help” me thought I was pretty stupid. I also always felt that the one trying to help me with “plans” felt with others, “that I had made my own bed by my own bad choices, so live with it.”

The good thing I learned in instances like this was when I perceived the discomfort of others for my not “listening” to them, I fell into my own bad pattern (by nature) of “saving their feelings.” That was not my job! Trying to save my own EX’s feelings (I thought he had some! LOL) was one of my biggest faults.

Thanks for this article, Oxy!!


I’ll admit I still have big problems with always offering help. I can remember even in school, if I saw a kid not getting what the teacher was saying, I’d hop up to go help them, even though I knew I would get in trouble. It is bred in my bones. There is a fine line or often no line between “helping” and “controlling” except the motive behind it. Which to me is a huge difference. But I know alanon and others say not to give advice (I think I have that right). It is hard, because my job is about policing others!

I’m trying to change, and your feedback helps ANewLily, but man, this is a tough one for me!


ANEWLily, I have that same pattern of “saving their feelings”. It isn’t all bad. Graciousness is a wonderful diplomatic skill. Our GOOD traits get us in problems when used around bad guys, or when we hurt ourselves to save others. I’ve been guilty of doing both. (being gracious to bad guys and hurting myself in the process of of graciousness.) I even first practically apologized to a man attacking me, bursting in on me when I was in the shower, like “oh you poor dear, how embarrassing for YOU”! GOD!~!!! Then I woke up from the quick FOG I was in and starting attacking him physically!

But that graciousness thing is so automatic in me. Allowed me to do good undercover work, even my partner would say “You had ME believing you liked him!” But part of me just automatically DOES look for the good for someone even when I know they have done unspeakable things.

So I have it BAD! At least I recognize it and have gotten out of undercover work too.


JAH, Your statement, “Our GOOD traits get us in problems when used around bad guys.” was the basic thing I got out of Leedom and Brown’s, “Why Women Love Psychopaths” (Golly, is that the correct title?) What a solace that was to learn.

Then, there is still the fine line as you mentioned between helping and controlling. The trick as I see it is how to correctly perceive the motive behind “help.”

I truly believe that the motive behind Oxy’s and others who have tried to devise plans for me is genuine altruism. In those cases, is “trying to save their feelings” a dishonest reaction? I just don’t know.


Well alanon says “Say what you mean, mean what you say, but don’t say it meanly.”

Especially hard in email! Usually if I give someone advice when they just wanted validation, I can tell from the look on their face, and then I give them a hug, and say “I’m sorry, you just needed to be heard didn’t you? I DO hear you and you’ll sort this out on your own.”

But everyone on LF can’t see your face to know sometimes you (and others) just need to be heard! I guess just coming right and saying, thanks, but I just need validation right now, not advice, might work.

Of course then, I feel like I’m starting to control them!!! It is all very confusing!! LOL!

All I know is that the intent behind LF IS support! And NEVER blaming the victim.

And that people like me, full of empathy, have a very HARD time not giving advice. I did it here in this post.



PS Forgot the main thing I was going to say! I think it is WONDERFUL that you have heard “help” as control. That means your radar is UP for being controlled and anyone is going to have a very hard time controlling you in the future. I think that is something to really celebrate!!!

When I was reading Betrayal Bond, it spoke about learning to set boundaries. And he said that it doesn’t matter if some of the boundaries we set at first are too strict, or too high. He says it matters not at all. What matter is that we are setting boundaries. That helped me get rid of the narcissiopath in my life. I set a boundary and didn’t worry if it was unreasonable or what. I just set it. He crossed it and boom! I never have spoken to him again and sent him a threatening email to never cross my path again. But I needed that permission from an expert to start setting boundaries.

Sounds like you have a great boundary set about being controlled! Woo hoo!!!


JAH, i don’t think you gave “advice” in this email, just a possible answer to my question of my last post about dishonest responses.

I have little experience with alcoholism and Alanon, so I do appreciate Alanon’s “sayings” as I do hear about them from others like you. I hadn’t heard the one you mentioned above yet. Thanks. I appreciate it. And it fits into my value system, too!

I also really appreciated your reminder about communication by email being difficult without facial expressions and body language. It is also difficult by telephone.

This whole problem of when to give advice and when not to is the crux of my going NC with my two older sisters a year ago. (My only commuication with them has been by phone.) I have no doubts whatsoever of their love for me and their 3 nieces and nephew but I think the discomfort of their concern caused them to stick their noses into a situation about which they knew nothing, couldn’t know! It was my fault that I just couldn’t listen to them anymore!

I heard that the oldest sister is now doing research on personality disorders so I have hope that she will begin to understand that all I needed from her was to listen — and give feedback to me what I am saying so I could “hear” it from a healthy perspective.

Well, that was needed most in the past. I have done a lot of healing in the past year. I guess what I didn’t need from my sisters was “advice” or “plans” that didn’t even apply — and wouldn’t listen to me when I tried to tell them that!!

I guess I still didn’t know about, “say what you mean, mean what you say but don’t say it MEANLY.” I think I was so afraid of hurting their feelings that I didn’t know HOW to say what I meant without sounding mean.

LF is a great site for new understandings!


Dear Oxy. Thank you for the VERY true post! It is one of the very difficult lessons in the “School of hard knox” as you put it, and to learn it I had to go through a very deep burn out years ago (before it became fashionable!). It was when I was really overworked and when I quit they had to hire three people. I learned that I COULD JUST DO SO MUCH, and had to find supervision, took courses in psychooncolgy and find ways to recharge my own batteries. I have to look for myself well first before I can care for others well! (one senior resident said this to me when I was in my first year, and I thought how awful, but he was so right, as you are)

The fine line between control and advice is very difficult. My sister has a plate on her lawyer’s desk: “Be reasonable, do it MY way”!

When I was in Medical school I read a book on the “Helper’s syndrome” or “The helpless helper”, where weak people seek out even weaker ones to “care” for them but in fact it is to feel “better” and “superior” and “in command”. It was awful and I wanted quit, but then found the solution of “assisting” the patients in difficult situations and thus not making them dependant upon me. I learned that I have to accompany the people on THEIR journey, and to accept when they chose NOT to be accompanied by me, and that they are free in every aspect to choose from all the possibilities life has to offer and my advice is just a little contribution to the abundance of life. It works quite well in my professional life, but it is difficult in private (especially with my sister and how she is educating my niece, or NOT educating her; she then always sais you don’t have children!)

But with trusted people as here at LF it is so wonderful to get answers, validation, a different view from the most astonishing group of caring, careful, wonderful people. It is not advice “Be reasonable, do it MY way”, but enhancing the creativity of thinking by walking around the problem, by looking at it from a different angle, and sometimes it is necessary to have me take off the rose colored glasses. I feel here very safe, validated and able to see the problems through different eyes and mirrors and can take the bits and pieces I need to “get the picture”. Thank you all so much! Peace, and sleep well! (((((HUGS))))))


JAH wrote” “Sounds like you have a great boundary set about being controlled! Woo hoo!!! ”

WOW, that is true. Something to celebrate for sure.

PS I’m still working on what a boundary is and what it is not.

But, yes, I will protect myself from being controlled by anyone, if I perceive it as control, for sure!

Ox Drover

Dear JAH,

When I started to set boundaries I was SO UNSURE of them being “reasonable” and ;I was TOTALLY FREAKED OUT ABOUT setting “Unreaonable ones.” For some reason I can’t allow myself to EVER BE UN-“reasonable.” DUH!

So at first, I would tell my son D (tearfully and with great anxiety and self doubt) “Is this a reasonable boundary” (cause, buddy-o I knew it was gonna PISS’EM OFF!) He would listen and VALIDATE that my boundary was REASONABLE. then with more confidence I would go set the boundary as “nicely, but firmly” as I could. Eventually, I got to the point that I was NO LONGER FEELING THE NEED for PRE-validation before I would set a boundary, I could validate it ME OWN SELF.

I think back to those days like “training wheels on a bike” and as my success grew, my CONFIDENCE grew to where I can now set boundaries with much less ANXIETY and more self confidence that I have the RIGHT to do so. What is so funny now, is that “time” in terms of months etc. is only a little over a year ago!!!!!

I also understand LILY’s GREAT point about when folks gave her advice SHE felt that they were trying to CONTROL her. I usually didn’t feel that way, when I was GIVEN advice, but at the same time, I didn’t MEAN to be “controlling” when I GAVE advice, but I guess I WAS, or I wouldn’t have felt irritation or anger when it wasn’t taken.

While I WAS controlled by others, I actually FELT that I was in control, or at least denied their control and was delusional that I HAD ANY CONTROL at all. LOL How is that for a bunch of “triple negatives” Miz Lily (English teacher! LOL)?

What a terrible mis-mash of feelings, none of them based on reality!!!

I’m not so sure that “enabling” isn’t a bred-in-the-bones genetic trait just like psychopathic-aggression and control is bred in the bones to a great extent, but in any case, by the time we are adults and have practiceed this enabling for decades, it is DIFFICULT to “reform” ourselves and our knee-jerk tendencies to do so. Just like an alky may have to fight the desire daily to drink, I have to fight the ENABLING desire daily, and monitor myself.

I almost feel like I am living in a different “culture” with a “different language” than the one I was born in, and I feel like I may never fully acclimate into the new second language totally where it becomes “automatic” or I don’t have to think about it it my native language and then TRANSLATE it before I act. I know that there are people who have “language” skills that they can learn a second language and “easily think” in that language, but i think I will always “think” in “Enabling lauguage” and have to TRANSLATE into non-enabling ACTION.

Back to the underwater life saving thing in the over turned helicopter, my husband said that there was no way to get to the man (who had actually CAUSED the crash in the small helicopter by refusing to stay off the skid, sit down and buckle his seat belt) without putting himself at risk. To prove that “no good deed goes unpunished” the man later filed charges against my husband (the pilot) with the FAA. Fortunately, my husband was exonerated, and the man was fired by the company they both worked for. From the description of this man’s behavior and attitudes both before and after the crash, I think he must have been a high level N.

Definining what is MY RESPONSIBILITY and what is NOT, I think is my biggest trouble. Because, unfortunately, what is someone else’s responsibility will ADVERSELY EFFECT ME if they do not fulfill it. (Like the wife who “enables” her drunk husband not to lose his job by calling his boss and saying eh was “sick” when in reality he was drunk.) It is HIS responsibilty to go to work and not lay out drunk, but if he DOES lay out drink, she is “punished” by the family finances being adversely effected. So, she assumes it is HER responsibility to prevent this calamity to the family by “fixing” the situation and calling the boss and telling him a lie.

The CONSEQUENCES of irresponsible (or bad) behavior are NOT limited to the person who is IRRESPONSIBLE or badly behaved. So, I for one, tried to (as I had been trained) “fix” the situation. Of course this was FUTILE and the consequences in the end were WORSE. I’m learning, I’m doing the best I can to “reform” but some days it isn’t easy.


Very well put Oxy.

Sorry to abruptly change the subject but WOW! I had given up on my family. But this morning, I wrote an email to my sister, stating why I was not in contact with my brother and here was her reply “I have gained more insight into our family with your email than I have gained over the past 67 years put together! You have certainly looked at these issues with greater depth than I ever dared to. …Sometime I will have to sit down with you and have a long talk….maybe you have answers to many of the questions I was always afraid to ask!”

I had told her in my email that I have great compassion for her, because I had witnessed what my mom did to her when she was a teen, and also told her the truth about my narcissiopath brother. That he can never feel love, that he is exploitive, etc and I thought she would blow that off.

I TOTALLY expected her to not respond and to write me off. I was telling her our Mom was NOT a normal person. Instead, it seems that me being the only witness to what she went through and validating that for her, really opened her eyes to what she has not wanted to see. I’m speechless.

I also feel compassion for her, because I know that horrible feeling when you first come out of the FOG. I know all that she will start gradually realizing and how painful it is going to be. I’m not completely through it myself. I do know that from this point forward, I will answer any questions she asks, but am not going to point out anymore stuff to her about her PRESENT reality. It will be best that she uncover that at a pace her mind can accept.

I don’t mean to sound like I’m light years ahead of her. I’m not, but until today, I don’t think she realized anything, that she was in a complete FOG about the family and blaming herself.

Well, it has shown me that when you speak your truth with humility and honesty, SOMETIMES the listener really does hear, really does take it in.


PS I wasn’t giving any advice to her, just explaining why I was done with my brother. No anger toward him expressed, just a sadness about who and what he is, and an understanding of where it came from.



Thanks for this reminder. My issue LOUD and CLEAR. And one that is certainly in my bones from way back.

JAH–congratulations on having a breakthrough with your sister. I know it must feel really good to help, just the right amount, and see a tiny light go on for her. It’s all in the balance, huh?


Great article! Right on cue as always…just when i needed it!
“I wish someone had knocked me out and saved me, I think it might have been the only way”….this is SPOT ON! That is the only way I would have been saved in every single P instance. And we DO get “knocked out”, but usually by the P when we leave anyway, so it might as well be by someone else, only a little earlier!
I would have done what Oxy’s husband did, unless it had been my child. Then i would have panic-ed too and killed us both for sure.
“The truth will pith you off before it sets you free”
That is what they always teach you in first aid: Who is the most important person at a scene of carnage and destruction where you are supposed to “”save” someone ? YOU ARE, because unless you are in one piece you are useless to anyone else.


Please don’t forget my Aussie irony, when i say, “if the child had been my P daughter it would have saved the world a bunch of trouble”.


Jah, I’m thrilled about the communication with your sister, also. Her reply was surely filled with gratitude that some unanswered questions of hers (that she was afraid to ask) finally came together for her. I’m thrilled for her, too.

It will be interesting (and exciting) how she uncovers the rest at her own pace — with you lovingly “holding her hand.” (That’s helping in a good way, I think.)

Ox Drover


Sometimes other VICTIMS CAN BE reached, with compassion and care and ON THEIR OWN TIME….it takes time to catch it and get it, and sometimes when you are in denial you don’t listen to the advice or warning. I know there were times I WAS WARNED and DID NOT LISTEN. So I feel sure that since I have done that myself, it is also probably something others have done as well…and people here have mentioned that they have tried to warn others who did not listen (Biddy is an example of people who were warned and chose not to listen/believe it) and other times other people have also mentioend that they were warned and didn’t listen. So I think this is probably PRETTY COMMON.

But, as others here have “testified” they didn’t listen either, to warnings, or they went back time after time but eventually, the time WAS THEIR TIME and they listend and acted.

HOWEVER, with the heavy duty Ns and Ps, there is NO way it will EVER be their time. With some heavy duty ENABLERS, it will never be their time. with VICTIMS, sometimes their time does come. I think we should always be OPEN to those victims that FINALLY get it and not give up hope for them, but UNTIL IT IS THEIR TIME, we can’t keep “hammering” on them, giving them advice that at THAT TIME they do not want to hear.

Lily, my dear friend, I hope that your children (or at least some of them) will come to the TIME when they can see the truth, and are not Ns or Ps (like their father) but simply other victims who will IN TIME GET IT. That is my prayer for you and them, and I am sure is also your prayer. But while we WAIT, we must ACCEPT WHAT IS TODAY’s REALITY for our OWN sakes. It’s not easy, my dear.

I will bet at some point it was painful to accept the reality that your husband was a MONSTER WHO WOULD NEVER CHANGE. It must also be painful to thing that your child/ren could be like him as well, or be dupes or victims as well, and not to know WHICH it is. whether to hold on to hope or give up. Not knowing is a b1atch in itself. ((((hang on though)))) You know you are not alone!!!! (((Hugs and God bless)


Oxy, with the sincerest hope I am not misunderstood, I just lovingly remind you that each of us has our own filters, just as you do.

I appreciate your prayers for my children — but neither I nor they (at least 3 of them) are not in denial.

All of us are trying to deal with our REALITY as best we can.
I have heard your “warnings” but some of them just don’t apply, ok?


Oops — double negative.

It shoudl be: At least 3 of my children are NOT in denial, and neither am I.

I’ve mentioned before that I just haven’t given you enough information to make better assumptions about our situation — that does change periodically as the weeks and months go by.

Some things just can’t be put into a public forum or in an email, either — like the details of yesterday afternoon.

I know you have a good heart and that your motives are well-intended. I do! I KNOW that.



Would is be vain of me to assume you were referencing our conversation? : )

I was just sharing with my mom, and I told her that when she threatened to never speak to me again, my inclination was to think ‘I can’t go back to im because I don’t want my mom to hate me.’

This is not what we want victims to do though.

The correct thought here is. ‘I do not want to go back to him because he is toxic.’

I am in a position of strength, thank God, because of NC, and time.
I have no love for my P other than that what I have for human-kind.
I just resent that I have actually started feeling sorry for him.
There is no Part of me that wants that R back. I know this. I am not lying.
BUT they are great at the pity ploy, and at times he has me thinking ‘maybe is does have feelings’.
Then I get upset, sad, frustrated that I have lost sight of my new future. This is where the sadness comes from. I think.


Dear Oxy, Kathy, Erin, and all you great,supportive people om LF,Im in a lot of pain right now, I expected it, but its relentless, day and night, the guilt is the worst, the “second guessing” of myself”. since I sent THAT letter to my daughter 6 weeks ago, setting boundaries or else NC. I havent heard a peep out of her since, nor do I expect to. I assume she is thinking,”Mum will give in, she always has before, then I can suckerpunch her again.” This time, Im determined NOT to give in, but I feel like ratshit.Its a terrible thing to say but it maybe would be easier if shed died, then eventually Id be able to grieve, and get over it, but with a NS I have learned that they NEVER CHANGE, as its nevr their fault in their eyes.
As my other daughter is the same [or worse,} and I have 2 disfunctional emotionally screwed up Narc brothers, this is all the blood family I have left, except for a female cousin who has Munchhausens syndrome! LOL! what a mob! Thank god for david and my lovely “adopted” Iranian adult “kids”.
I guess Ill just have to ride this wave of pain, I cant avoid it, I was expecting it, and here it is! Love and peace, geminigirlXX


Oh, geminigirl, I’ve wanted several times to respond to you and let you know that I think I understand your pain of lack of normal and loving communication with your daughters.

I actually grieved for my 4 children for 5 years before I could accept the “reality” of the depth of the smear campaign and the parental alienation. I can’t explain it better than that.

And I really don’t know what to say to you except that I am “hearing” you and wish I could hug you tight and wipe away your tears.

During one of my worst days — about 5 years ago now, a new friend’s husband (in her presence) just hugged me with no words, just tightly hugged me as I cried. The wife hugged me, too, but not so prolonged as the husband. (I hope this doesn’t sound perverse, because it wasn’t)

It was so strengthening! Ever since, I have asked to hug others (when it is appropriate occasion) including most of my doctors and their nurses.

All through my children’s lives (before I escaped), we hugged every day and I missed it SO MUCH. Their spouses were huggers, too, and of course, all of the grandchildren!

I am a “natural” hugger, though, and if you are not, this may not be as therapeutic to you as it was to me.

But, those hugs and my daily reading of Scripture and sometimes all day listening to Christian TV or radio were the only things that comforted me. Actually, these activities still continue. My internist does not even know of my background but today I asked if I could hug her as I left and she giggled and said, “Of course.” She is younger than my youngest daughter, even.

I had intended to tell her about the FEAR episode of yesterday but I didn’t because God had already given His message to me about what to do.

I feel sure that God will comfort you, too, and give you the strength you need to endure. I hope it doesn’t take as long as it has for me, but I assure you that if I can survive, so can you.



I meant to add that the daily hugs were what I missed most of all. And the daily “I love you.”

I am very fortunate that several of my grandchildren have called me quite regularly. One of the last times, my only great-grandson, now 17 months, said, “Eye uve ewe.” before his mother hung up.

Thrilled my heart — and eased the remaining ache.


A light little story that I hope makes you smile.

I had told my granddaughter that I can now walk after 4.5 months of healing from a broken hip — but that I walk like a penquin. She repeated that good news to her husband — and then started laughing.

Liltte great-grandson was walking like a penquin, saying “ey uve pennkees” over and over. (He watches cartoons!)


Dearest newlily, thank you thank you, from the bottom of my heart! it helps so much to know that you and others on this site care, and have been thru the same mill of pain. I do love hugs, and as mu “adopted” Iranian adult “kids” are coming over for lunch tomorrow, I know Ill give and get plenty of hugs from them!God is so good, giving me anew adopted daughter to love and cherish. It doesnt mean I dont love my own two, but it sure helps! And they are so sweet, and so appreciative of us, and what we try to do for themLots and lots of {{{HUGs}}} dearest girl! Maia{geminigirl}Ps I love the Penguin story!!


OXY dear, i was laughing reading ur post, because i have recognized myself and my motion to help, to give an advice.
It is easy to give an advice, what is hard is to accept it. Moreover, seeking an advice, ppl tend to filtrate them and accept what “suites” them (denial and FOG indeed).
Finally i understood that nomatter how similar stories are, every one is unique as well, and what works for me doesnt have to work with u. In addition, ppl are different, there are many different character types, and we all react according to them, unwillingly and out of conscience – it is our nature.
Still, there is one FACT – LF IS HELPING PLACE, because we all here understand, we relate a way or another, we have traveled the same journey. Some of us enjoy mountains, some of us enjoy rivers, some of us enjoy valley, but we are all on the same train, though not the same destination.
What makes this place special are PEOPLE, warm, understanding, compasionate. So even if i dont like ur advice or i dont accept it fully or partly. I KNOW U UNDERSTAND, i know ur emphaty , i know u care. We all need to tell our story without fear we will be taken as crazy, we feel held and loved, and thats why many ppl come back here, even after healing.
There are professional who can help, BUT IT IS DIFFERENT, nomatter how good they are in own job/proffesion, it is still a JOB and we are PAYING a service. HERE ITS DIFFERENT, if u like – more human (due to all respect to our psychologists). We do not work on each other, WE EMPHASYZE!
Thank u, dear OXY, and thank all of wonderful ppl on LF


Just small comparation:
I suffered huge pain in stomack, visited one great GI, retired, and he told me i have to change regime, to keep diet. I asked him what can i eat, what should i eat, and his answer was:
EAT WHATEVER, ur body will tell u what. Avoid food what produces pain and take what doesnt. I can only tell u which food produces more/less acids, but response of ur body is the most important.


Hi, I’m new to the site and have spent lots of time reading all the blogs. I am out the other end of a “relationship” with a ps and drifting in and out of denial as I seem to be trying to rest on something that I can “live with” in my head as a reason why someone I loved would control, manipulate, lie, cheat, rob yet all the while pretend he was loving, affectionate, hard working committed…so peppered with I love you…these mixed messages resemble the ones I grew up with…you know saying the words but the body language would say something else? this nearly drove me crazy…I think you have to cultivate a highly sophisticated way of reading mixed messages to get to the truth if it does not drive you crazy first.

So what I am left with is a sense of bewilderment. shock. I’m on shifting sand and cant settle anywhere yet..I am worried that you actually get what you want to believe…so if I believe this man is a lost cause, remorseless unchangeable human being then I have become like him in some way…


Hello Oxy and Everyone,

I’m sure that most of you are aware of my ongoing “mission” to help Biddy understand that my ex, now her husband, is a full blown sociopath. Every time something goes wrong, I hear from her. Yet, when I remind her that she is dealing with a sociopath and go to endless lengths to help her understand…she goes into defense mode. If anything, I fear that I may have pushed her CLOSER to him. She’s approaching me more now that I’ve remarried. She and my ex S got married exactly a week after I married my current husband. But, you know what? I finally decided that I’d use my S experience to attempt to help people who want it…like the good people here on LF. It’s sad…but I fear that when someone approaches us and asked us what makes a person behave in such a manner and we come back with “he’s/she’s a sociopath”…their minds automatically go to Bundy or Manson. It’s just too much for them to swallow. My husband and I are both fans of crime shows. I’d give anything if just ONCE they would do a program documenting the behavior of what I’ll call the “everyday” sociopath. Afterall, aren’t they the most common? I feel very badly for the victims of serial murders/rapes…but what about US…we’re victims, too, and most of us will be affected the remainder of our lives by what these people did to us…if nothing else…just by knowing that we once fell prey to them.

Ox Drover

Several people asked questions or made comments, I will try to answer them all if I miss any, it is CRS! LOL
First___welcome STAYING SANE, glad you are here–you are at the RIGHT PLACE. Stay around and read and learn, Knowledge=power and power=peace. Again Welcome.

Banana: I have CRS (can’t remember “STUFF’) or some word tht starts with an S. LOL anyway, I wrote that article and sent to Donna several weeks ago, and I honestly can’t remember who I was blogging with that triggered me to think about the subject. but definitely COULD have been an article with you and especially considering the STAGE you are in right now, or were a week or so ago —a very normal stage I might add. I wanted someone to tell me what to odo sometimes, and that way I didn’ t have to make a decision and if per chance it went wrong–hey, I just “followed orders”—I think that was the excuse some of the Germans tried for war crimes tried to us. I “juist did what someone else told me to–wasn’t my fault I did X, Y or Z.”

In the end, whether we like it or not, Banana, if we get the consequences of an action of ours, we are responsible. One way or another. And that is NOT blaming the victim, she/he is not to “blame” for someone beating them up, but if they hav eseen violent behavior prior and they go back, on their own or anyone else’s suggestion, they are RESPONSIBLE for the consequences.

Tossing ideas back and forth between two people is NOT a bad idea on just about ANY project, but the person who has to do the action (or take no action) on THEIR problem is the one RESPONSIBLE for the outcome, because they made the FINAL decision. The person making suggestions or bouncing ideas around may have actually been “right” but that person has NO “right” to be angry at the person whose RESPONSIBILY the stuation was failed. Or guilt either.

In the TNewman & Biddy situation, Biddy SEEMS TO keep coming to Tami “asking advice and seeking counsel”—but in realiity she she is DOING NEITHER. She is looking for validation of the decisions she is making, she is looking for excuses to stay with him, and somehow looking to get rid of her FEAR of making a decision. She is going to stay with him until she decides to leaver. PERIOD. We all “stayed til we decided to leave.” Ultimately we ALL make our own decisions for our own actions. WE ARE ADULTS.

A child has a “protector” called a parent to give them (hopefully) advice and even ORDERS along with consequences to guide and protect them. the child has and needs this wiser and older “protector-parent” to KEEP THEM SAFE AS THEY ARE NOT CAPABALE of making wise or sensible decisions. If the parent tells the chld to do something and it turns out badly, the RESPONSIBILIT falls back on to the parent for advising the child wrongly or in error. The CHILD themselves is ABSOLVED OF RESPONSIBILITY for the DECISION and ultimately for the outcome.

However, we cannot go back into childhood and in a healthy way let others take responsibility for our actions. Nor shouold be TAKE responsibility for another adults actions..

I think I understand why Banana’s mother might (out of frustration) be trying to say “leave him or else.” In reality though, she does not have that right to order her daughter around, her daughter is an adult. To me that comes across as an angry “threat” to withdraw love.

I don’t, however, see anything wrong with Banana’s mom saying something like, “Banana, darling. Your dad and I love you and Lilttle Banana very much, but we firmly believe that “Maggot” is not treating you and Banana well. You are aware of our feelings about this, in the mean time, your dad and I prefer not to discuss this and keep tensions high. You are always welcome in our home, but because of our feelings about Maggot, we would rather have you and Little Banana visit us without him, or we could meet you and little Banana some where else, but we prefer not to associate with maggot while he is behaving in this way.”

I am sure there are thousands of ways to say my above intended”conversation” differently and many many that might be better, but to me, that shows Banana that her parents love her, are concerned about her, and DISapprove of maggot’s BEHAVIOR, and hold out some little hope to Banana that he might change, but NOT too much!

Tami Newman, I agree sometimes that “sociopath” or “psychopath” turns people off—sometimes we have to start with the definition, I think, and work backackwards to the WORD rather than the other way round. I’ve seen some great books on “Emotional Vampires” that never mentioned the word (I think it should have at some point) but TOTALLY described S/Ps and cluster Bs in general (TOXIC).

Lily, my dear, you have borne so much for so long, I think you are capable of anything!!!! Your heart is so good and you trust in God, what better defenses could anyone have!

Geminigirl, I have felt for so long that my adopted son D is a gift from God to replace the son I lost, I am glad that you have these loving, warm caring “adoptees” as well….”family” is NOT only about blood, but about LOVE. (((hugs))) and my prayers for us all.


StayingSane said: “drifting in and out of denial as I seem to be trying to rest on something that I can “live with” in my head as a reason why someone I loved would control, manipulate, lie, cheat, rob yet all the while pretend he was loving, affectionate, hard working committed”……….I am worried that you actually get what you want to believe”so if I believe this man is a lost cause, remorseless unchangeable human being then I have become like him in some way”

Welcome to LoveFraud, Staying Sane. Sounds like you are drifting in and out of the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt), but since you are “questionning”, IMO you are definitely making progress. Unfortunately, some people really are a lost cause and are remorseless, but coming to realize that about someone you cared for does not make you “like” them in some way. It simply means you have begun to recognize the signs, the contradictions in behavior and words that don’t compute and match how they attempt to present their personality most of the time.

The articles are great to get a base understanding of how a sociopath operates etc. So, read the articles and keep posting. And again, welcome. –Jenn


BlueSkies said: “I wish someone had knocked me out and saved me, I think it might have been the only way. ”

Me, too, BlueSkies, me too. I think knocking me out or maybe if they had hog tied me and locked me up for a few months that may have done it. But I suppose in real life that is not an option, except maybe down in Florida (?) where you can Baker Act someone, although I am not sure what the requirements are for that.

I also have the “problem” of wanting to offer advice or opinons and part of it I think is that I sooooooo want the person to get out and stay out and avoid the type of harm I went through. It is so much easier to see the problem” when you are not the one directly involved in it and you (or I) just want to scream RUN RUN RUN or whatever advice I think they need to hear (even if it is not gentle).

I also have to keep reminding myself that even though a person may need to vent and may even ask advice, that they often are not going to take it (just like I vented and talked about what I should do or was gonna do, but often did not follow thru). I repeated this cycle so many times with two friends (one by phone and one via email, and neither of which even lived in the same state with me) that it was not funny. I will be forever grateful and also amazed at their patience with me and although they would advise me or encourage me or yell(thru email at me and one of them did not mince ANY words or opinons and frankly her bluntness was what I needed), neither one of them ever once threw in the towel and threw up their hands in disgust and deserted me when I failed to follow thru or maintain no contact. If they had, I am not sure I would even be here today as I was just that far gone into the depths of despair.

I agree with Oxy you can’t drown yourself while trying to help someone else as then you are no good to them either. But I think if it is someone you really care about, you can regroup and recharge and still be there for them, even if only on the outskirts by just letting them know “if” they are ever ready, you are there for them.

So, anyway, if I find myself growing frustrated with a person who is staying stuck (and I personally do not think being supportive entails just being kind and gentle and always telling a person what they “want” to hear, or otherwise you are a meanie. I believe tough love sometimes helps and one of my friend’s tough love approach in not mincing words about exactly what she thought about the ex psychopath and exactly what she thought I should do about it really helped me, even if I did not do what she said), —anyway, when I get frustrated with a victim, I find it is ME that needs to regroup and get myself in check because I need to go back and try to remember what it was like for me when I was in that stage, so I need to understand it has nothing to do with them deliberately dissing or miscountring any advice (nothing personal in other words, just they are still too far in the fog). I also have to remind myself to be patient even if they ask the same advice over and over again and don’t take it, or just make mild attempts at taking it. (I also did this and would slip back in the FOG).

I have a person who is very close to me (known them all their lives) who is in a situation right now that I would have never dreamed they would be in. I am trying to be there for them, and although they have already been thru one rather serious mishap (with what I think is a sociopath), and I gave my two cents worth because they brought the issue up with me and they seemed to “get it”, then ended up going right back—-I had to give myself a reality check and a good talking to as I see alot of the same behaviors going on that went on with me. So, bottom line is I have to hold on loosely and now try to be careful of any advice and just make it clear I am here for them and they always have a place to come and stay etc. if needed. Ok, this has gotten so long and I have gotten so far off track that I guess I will shut up because I forgot what my original point was that I wanted to make!!!! lol


Hi ladies, I have not posted in over a year, but thought to check in tonight, something triggered my memory of this wonderful website.

My theory about ‘we can only do what we can do’ is right in line with OxDrover, but know that when people come here, (I’m a great example), they already sort of know what the problem is and what they should do. Someone said it earlier in this string – we are just looking for validation of what we already know. I came here and was stunned at what I found, and without a doubt it helped give me the strength to get out and move on after 13 years of an abusive marriage.

While I was certainly an enabler, I also stuck with him under the delusion that – ah – I could help!! I could rescue him, blah blah. But again: if you want to be rescued, you will be. If you’re ready for enlightenment, you’ll find it. And if you’re not, you will perpetuate the cycle of drama and pain, with or without your abuser.

The biggest and best lesson of everything that happened to me is to never ever become a victim – not only to others but to yourself. Help yourself above all, and the goodwill and beauty that grows within you will overflow and, by default, spread joy and peace. And when people see that peace, they will want it too.

So Jen2008 – you are quite right, you can be there for the person in need, but in the end, they have to be ready to let go of the pain. And that’s not something you can give them – you can nudge them in the right direction, but while you’re doing that, making sure you’re not inadvertently feeding the drama too.

One thing that should encourage anyone who comes here for solace and advice: the pain and hardship that you’ve had to endure is bringing you to that moment of peace faster than you can know. You will wake up one day and see it, even if it feels impossible now.

super chic

tmassar1. Hello! I do remember your name, good to hear you are doing well. I never thought about how I am a victim of myself, a whole new perspective to think about! I don’t want to do anything to hurt myself anymore, I have to stay out of the fog, and I pray for the joy and peace you have found! God bless you.


When they keep turning up in my life as often as they do it is hard to let go of it. it seems to keep happening, not just partners and family but teachers and “friends”. i am so sick of them turning up everywhere.


I think the behaviors Biddy is having and some of mine at this stage even, are codependent.
I have been reading “Codependent No More”. I have to work through it as a work-book for best results, but it is very enlightening even as a read-through.
I have also been reading “Just like his father” and just started “Getting through my Thick Skull” so I have to get back to my codependent healing : )
It’s just this weakness that we had, we were targets. In some ways it was our fault that the P’S got their hooks into us.
It may not be our fault that we were weak or had low self-esteem, but we are in charge of our healing.
I have said, “he’s so convincing, I can’t help it.” NO NO NO. I am the ONE responsible for this, and yes OXY, we are stronger than we give ourselves credit for. and I believe the more we use it the stronger and more confident I get. Even like seeing the OW. I had PTSD like feelings about it, but when I saw he, and walked away I was amazed at how little it really impacted me ,and I gained strength from that experience.
Tonight I have to face STBXP’s parents, and am not feeling well about it, but I have strength from where I have been and have faith that I will be ok.

I thank God for removing me from this M early. I believe he has used this to expose my weaknesses and get me the healing I need even of past hurts from childhood.

BTW my therapist uses Theophostic Prayer and it’s amazing!!!!

Peace and Love to you all.


I’m having nightmares for the last 3 nights about my ex. We were only together for a year and a half but he was very persistent, moved in very fast overwhelmed me with affection and I fell in love with the illusion of who he was….I bought a house in his country Latvia and he moved back to start his own business and commence work on the house. I sent over significant amounts of money in 3 payments expecting work to be done….he just bullshitted me and fobbed me off till I went over and it dawned on me, no work was really happening and no account of where the money gad gone….as I asked him to account for the money he got angry and insulted that I didnt trust him….I broke up with him and then went out to retrieve documents etc….I turned up on his door and made him on front of neighbours and his family pack up my belongings and put them in a car id hired to drive out to him. I got a solicitor and she says its missapropriation of funds and a fairly clear cut case….but it would be very costly and take time…I dont want to spend any more time on him, so I asked him to pay me back a small amount (A loan for a second hand car) and then I would leave him alone….but I just know he wont pay it and I will have to go after him…I cant stand him and want nothing more to do with him…my nightmares are about chasing him, trying to catch him and I’m in a sweat and panick..this guy could not give a damn and his weapon is ignoring me, telling people I am crazy, not normal. He flirts with me, calls me love to confuse me and then withdraws….the bait for me is being loved, he knows this and uses it…its an act. He has a predatory stare, he can lie without blinking, he has no feelings and does not repond to anything he deems beneath him.


I am reading “Freeing Yourself from the NarcIssist in Your Life by Linda Martiznez-Lews, PhD. I’m loving it because it is about the “high level” narcissist (the guy I was involved with was a doc and a megamillionaire) and she does paint a picture of them as miserable behind their mask, and it rings true with things he said at times, about episodes of depression, of nothingness, of feeling empty.And his attempted suicide. I ALMOST feel sorry for him.

But I’m also loving it for her non-blaming of the victim. Here is a fair use quote from the book “Everyone wishes at one time or another to be rescued. We want someone else to take over for us, to love us unconditionally, to give us whatever we want. The wish to be adored is primary and irresistible. It reaches back into earliest childhood, when we were dependent on a mother’s love in order to survive. The narcissist, with his arresting charm and sheer force of personality, is capable of activating these deep wishes in others and using his desirability to exploit them.”

I think that is true for those of us who got involved with one who was actually high achieving, or pretended to be. They come on with the self-assurance that Steve Becker wrote about it. We mistake their tremendous self-assurance for character and integrity, when it is the opposite. In my case, I thought I knew who he was at his core, and ignored every red flag to the contrary. Let’s be honest. I ignored huge red billboards every fifty feet! And then once I was in it up to my eyeballs, I had the betrayal bond thing going on and what a painful mess it has been to extract myself.

I thought he was my one and only solution to the problems in my life. As it turns out, he was the nuclear bomb that somehow I survived, and miracle of miracles, everything is BETTER, oh so much better, than before the nuclear blast. But it almost killed me, it really almost did.

There are still days when it all drags me down. Yesterday was one of them. But this book has made me feel much better.

The book has pages and pages of explanation of why they are the way they are, and their telling traits. She uses real life examples to illustrate the points.

AT times I cringe and say…”ouch…I’ve done something like that”, reading about a narc trait, but then I read on and say “oh my god, no I haven’t!!” Like she explains the difference between anger (and I’ve done anger) and then RAGE…quite a difference.

It is scary, because much of what she says can lead to being a narc was present in my early life. Maybe that is why I can kind of get inside their head and feel like I know what they must go through. But I was saved. My therapist said as a child you can relate to the abuser or chose to be the victim. In this meaning, choosing to reject identification with abuser is a good thing. A victim can heal. A narc cannot.

And I think what saved me was Sunday school every single week telling me God loves me and that I was good, not bad. I’m not religious today, but I truly do think that saved me from becoming a narc like my brother did. He is a narcissiopath at best, as a matter of fact. So was my mom.

And ironically the man I was involved with saved me at 15/16 by being so abusive back then that the main trait I looked for in a man to marry was the anti-narc (without realizing I was doing that) and I accidentally married a mentally healthy person!!!


Here is some good news! We had our ‘adopted’ kids over for lunch yestarday,-here is the email, in full, which came this morning from Roya.{It was her 24th Birthday}.
“Hello, my dear Mum,How are you? How is dady? yesterday was a very nice day for us. My 24th Birthday was very beautiful, with you and dady. You gave me a very good memory. Everything was perfect. The very nice presents,delicious lunch, beautiful cake. All of them was thebest. I love you mama. I love you very much. You are very very kind, like an angel. Were so happy for havingyou and dady,and we will be your child forever, and we will do everything that we can for you and dady.Thank you very much for all your kindness. I dont know how I cansay thanks for them.I sent all the pictures that we took yesterday. They are so beautiful. Thanks again, mama. Im waiting for your email. Kiss you and dady. I love you! Take care. Your daughter, Roya.XX”Isnt God good to give me such a beautiful loving daughter. Of course I still love my girls, but its a sad love, not a glad love. I know youd want to share my happiness, Thanks to all of you, you are all AWESOME! your happy geminigirl{Hugs}.


Hi Evryone,
I hardly ever post here but I’ve been wanting to say THANK YOU, THATNK YOU and THANK YOU ALL!!!! for all your articles and posts which have been reading persistantly, helped keep me sane and validated my experience from finally breaking a 3 year confusing, abusive relationship with a Narciopath!

You do make a difference….but as we have all probably done at one time or another, we keep going back….even when the S is a high functioning, highly educated succsessfull, covert abuser that eveyone else sees as “such a nice guy”…and we question our reality.

I agree, it takes a tremendous ammount of self awareness, conditioning and perseverance to want to heal and we have to take responsibility for ourselves. When we help some one else and give advise we have to detach and just be patient, as we have to be with ourselves in the healing process.

The book I’m reading now…”The Betrayal Bond ” is really helping me the most in understanding this concept of why I keped gong back, why it’s so difficult breaking free, and understand why so many of us fall back into the pattern.

JustaboutHealed, I think I’m going to read the book you just recommended next.

Geminigirl….I’m so happy for you! enjoy the peace and love you are feeling right now! you deserv it!


Ox Drover

Dear Stayingsane,

I am so sorry you are going through all this, he sounds like a typical soul-less psychopathic user/abuser.

I think You have got him “pegged” —he is a user and abuser, and he will NOT pay you back—my advice is to cut your losses and run, get away as soon as you can, whtever “loss” you have had is over, no way to get it back by throwing good money after bad money (lost money) Whatever it takes to get him out of your house, I would recommend to do it, but don’t give him more money. If necessary, have police put him out.

My experience has been even if a court told you and him that he was responsible to repay you, he will not do it.

Good luck and God bless. (((hugs)))


tmassari 1
good to hear from you. Very much agree with your observation:
“The biggest and best lesson of everything that happened to me is to never ever become a victim – not only to others but to yourself. Help yourself above all, and the goodwill and beauty that grows within you will overflow and, by default, spread joy and peace. And when people see that peace, they will want it too.”

Great thread. Lot’s of wisdom and insights to ponder.


Dear OxDrover,

I think you are absolutely right in giving this advice to Stayingsane. Run away and diminish your losses. There is no point in trying to get justice done or hoping he will pay. We all have been through that and I think we know the outcome.

Stayingsane, it is hurtfull but that is what they are. We feel sorry for what you are going through but happy that you founf LF and we know you will get over it like we all are doing. Getting knowledge and understanding what happen to us and how to survive the madness. We have hope and we will heal. The Ss will never change and there is no hope for them. This blog has been a life saver and a great source of healing and inspiration to many of us. It has helped me tremendously. I ended up winning in the material sense but wished I never had to go through what I have been through. I still healing from the pain and have come a long way already. I hope with the knowledge we acquaire in here will help many who are still involved with the S on how to best manage their exit from a relationship with those types of alien creatures.. I am sure you will be alright. Keep posting and we will read about your progress.

super chic

Aeylah… thanks for mentioning how much the book is helping you, others have said that too, I have the book… I’m going to try to read it again, maybe I just don’t want to look at myself, I took the quiz at the beginnning of the book and then just felt it was too much work.

geminigirl… glad to hear you had a nice time yesterday! She wrote you such a sweet email!


Geminigirl, I only have a minute to respond after I read all the latest posts. I feel guilty that I am only choosing to take this snippet of time to reply to you. My thoughts and prayers are with the others, though.

Genimi, I couldn’t help but think of the example of Job in the Bible when even I first heard about your new Iranian “children.” You may have lost children but He, in His goodness, has replaced them. Or is it only one you lost and He gave you two more? Sorry. I’ve been reading too many posts and getting mixed up.

Roya wrote a beautiful and heartfelt email. My heart sings with yours reading it.

I haven’t mixed YOU up, though. I”ve identified with you and your grief from the first I heard your story.Sometimes, identified TOO much to even know what to say.

Out of time.


Dearest newLily, Oxy, and all of you brave courageous smart women out there,-NewLily, I lost 2 children, my younger daughter Claire, now 43, I havent seen since the 25th feb.,2003, when I took her out for a Birthday lunch. I have NEVER once been allowed by her to see her 3 kids, now aged 13, 10, and one year. David and I dont even know what we are supposed to have done wrong. Deborah, now 45, I havent been in contact with for 6 long weeks. Up to that time she managed to fleece me of almost A$10,000 ,she never ever calls me unless she wants something,{usually cash}.
The final crunch came when I discovered she had selected as “Facebook Friends, two awful, punk girls,heavy drinkers, druggies, who helped her to trash my home and destroy my art studio.{twice}. She lived with them for a while in a squat,
after shed run away from home.{She had her own nice flat under our house at the time!} My ex husband was doing very well, he is an alcoholic but had been ‘dry for almost ten years when deb, at 16, left school, and ran away from home.
It destroyed him, she ws the one hed hoped would go to University. he used to sit and cry. I know it wasnt fair, but deep down, I blamed her for his drinking again. From then on, I had 2 of them out most nights getting drunk,{when shed come home again}, and I was bashed up by both my ex and by Deb,{while she was on drugs}. So, really Ive lost both my adult kids. My boundaries to her, in a letter, were that she remove these former punks and re-instate me on facebook,{it was my only source of getting pictures of her kids}, and I also asked her for only ONE apology, to cover all the unspeakably awful things she has done to me, the worst being to ban me from her wedding to kev, but invite my ex and my present husband.{Who naturally didnt go!} Ive heard absolutely nothing from her, Im sure she thinks Ill weaken and call her, but I know I CANT and MUST NOT. for my sanity and bank balance! I just heard today by email from kevin,{her ex, but still not divorced after 3 years} that he now has the 3 kids full time, as she lost her job, {again} and cant afford the rent of $500 a week, so shes had to move out.Im relieved that kev now has the kids full time, he has a god job, a car, and is a far better parent to these lovely kids. He says they will stay with him till she gets herself “sorted out”. I feel for her, as she is running out of suckers to sting, but truly, this will be the time to make or break her.You would think that she would give in and apologise to me, who has been her greatest ally and support, but her huge pride will prevent this.God knows,{and Im sure he does} know what will become of her! My instincts are to ring her and offer help, but if she stayed with David and I I know shed probably split us up! So, I have to stand firm. The other ‘replaced” child, is Abbas, Royas 24 year old husband, 6 feet 2 of love and appreciation! Im getting plenty of loving hugs from them, in fact each time they leaveus, they cry! yesterdayAbbas said to me while hugging me,”Thank you, my dear Mum, for all you do for us! I love you so much!” I have NEVER had such love and hugs from my own kids, maybe when they were really little, but Deb has never been one for physical contact, very cool and reserved.So, I have to give both my adult kids to God, and I thank him so much for my wonderful new family. Love and hugs,geminigirlXX

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