By Ox Drover
I was thinking about a blog post and reply that had gone on between another poster and myself on Lovefraud about trying to “help” others see the “light” and get away from their own personal psychopath.
I mulled over what I had done in my life in trying to “fix” others by coming up with a solution that they could take to ease their pain from their prior bad choices. I would wrack my brain up and down, left and right, to try to come up with a “plan” that would help these people “fix” whatever mess they got into of their own free will.
Some people would call this “co-dependent” and others would call this “enabling.” Whatever term you want to apply to it, I called it “helping,” but the bottom line is that this behavior on my part was not “helping” these people, it was me trying to take responsibility for the consequences of their bad choices or bad behavior.
Many times these people would say “That’s a good idea, but ”¦” and would not take my very best suggestion that I was sure would work. So, as a consequence, I would get frustrated at them or angry with them for being so stubborn or stupid! (How arrogant of me!)
Other times, they would take part of my wonderful solution and it would not work because they didn’t use all of it, and then they would get mad at me for giving them such bad advice. It was all my fault because it didn’t work and they were still hurting.
The point is, that they got into the fix in the first place, and it is not my responsibility to get them out. I am not “helping” them by trying to take over running their life. I can, if they are willing, support them by saying “Boy, you must be feeling bad/sad/mad about that situation.” That is validating their feelings and is a true statement and is supportive.
Suggestions on Lovefraud
Even here on Lovefraud when we give “advice” about what we would do or what idea we think would work, it should be on our part, a suggestion if asked, or noted as our opinion. We all must make our own choices, our own decisions, and live with the consequences. Lovefraud is a supportive place, and the people here are very validating because they too have lived through the chaos with a psychopath in one way or another.
Sometimes we have bloggers come here for advice and we freely give it, and those bloggers do not take our advice, they make excuses for their dysfunctional relationship with a presumably dysfunctional or psychopathic person and stay with or go back to that person, or in some cases, go into another dysfunctional relationship. Of course we are disappointed that that was their choice, but it was their choice. We have not failed when they do not take our advice. It is not our fault that they did not get away from the danger.
We can still feel empathy for these people, but we should not feel that we are failures because our compassion and/or advice was ignored. We can only do what we can do.
Can’t save the unwilling
Back “before enlightenment” I used to feel really badly if my advice was refused or didn’t work, but I think I have turned a corner in my compassionate nature and in my desire to assist or help someone in their recovery from entanglement in dysfunctional relationships. I no longer feel that it is my responsibility to “save” someone if they are not willing to give it all they have got as well.
To use an analogy of swimming, my late husband was a very experienced swimmer and a lifeguard certification instructor. He had a situation once where he had a victim trapped inside a turned over helicopter in the water. Every time he would swim down to try to rescue the man, the man was hysterical and kept trying to pull him under with him. My husband quickly saw the situation and went back to the surface until there were no more bubbles coming out from the water. Then he went back to get the unconscious man and brought him to the surface. If my husband had tried to rescue the man while he was still consciously fighting him, they would have both died. By waiting until it was safe to do so, my husband saved them both.
When we are trying to “save” someone who is floundering in the flood waters of a miserable and dysfunctional relationship and they are asking for help, yet fighting that help at the same time, sometimes we can only wait until they are no longer fighting the help we offer them. We must firmly set a boundary that “I will not allow your problems to drag me under as well.”
My late husband wanted to rescue that man, but he was not willing to let the man pull him under as well, and he set a boundary. “Until you stop fighting me, I am not going to come back.” What would my husband have felt if after he did pull up the man and the man could not be revived and he was dead? I don’t know, of course, for sure, but my bet, knowing my husband, is that he would not have spent the rest of his life grieving for not having rescued that man in time. He would have said, I think, “I did the best I could, but I couldn’t let him pull me under and drown me as well.”
I have tried unsuccessfully to rescue my psychopathic offspring and my enabling maternal DNA donor, and for years let them pull me under the “water” until I nearly drowned in the process. Every time I would “fail” to rescue them because they fought me tooth and nail, I felt guilty, I felt inadequate, I felt that I had failed, and threw myself right back into the water of despair. Now, I realize I can’t rescue them against their wills, and I am no longer willing to risk my own life to try to do so. I can’t help them, and they won’t allow me to rescue them. I no longer feel disappointed, sad, grief-stricken or inadequate because of that. They have the choice to swim if they want to, and I have the choice not to risk my life in a futile attempt to save them from themselves. The best part of it all now is, though, that I no longer castigate myself for “failing” to rescue them. I no longer feel guilty or inadequate for their choices. I can let them be responsible for themselves and I am responsible for myself. That is freedom; that is peace. We can only do what we can do.
JAH, i don’t think you gave “advice” in this email, just a possible answer to my question of my last post about dishonest responses.
I have little experience with alcoholism and Alanon, so I do appreciate Alanon’s “sayings” as I do hear about them from others like you. I hadn’t heard the one you mentioned above yet. Thanks. I appreciate it. And it fits into my value system, too!
I also really appreciated your reminder about communication by email being difficult without facial expressions and body language. It is also difficult by telephone.
This whole problem of when to give advice and when not to is the crux of my going NC with my two older sisters a year ago. (My only commuication with them has been by phone.) I have no doubts whatsoever of their love for me and their 3 nieces and nephew but I think the discomfort of their concern caused them to stick their noses into a situation about which they knew nothing, couldn’t know! It was my fault that I just couldn’t listen to them anymore!
I heard that the oldest sister is now doing research on personality disorders so I have hope that she will begin to understand that all I needed from her was to listen — and give feedback to me what I am saying so I could “hear” it from a healthy perspective.
Well, that was needed most in the past. I have done a lot of healing in the past year. I guess what I didn’t need from my sisters was “advice” or “plans” that didn’t even apply — and wouldn’t listen to me when I tried to tell them that!!
I guess I still didn’t know about, “say what you mean, mean what you say but don’t say it MEANLY.” I think I was so afraid of hurting their feelings that I didn’t know HOW to say what I meant without sounding mean.
LF is a great site for new understandings!
Dear Oxy. Thank you for the VERY true post! It is one of the very difficult lessons in the “School of hard knox” as you put it, and to learn it I had to go through a very deep burn out years ago (before it became fashionable!). It was when I was really overworked and when I quit they had to hire three people. I learned that I COULD JUST DO SO MUCH, and had to find supervision, took courses in psychooncolgy and find ways to recharge my own batteries. I have to look for myself well first before I can care for others well! (one senior resident said this to me when I was in my first year, and I thought how awful, but he was so right, as you are)
The fine line between control and advice is very difficult. My sister has a plate on her lawyer’s desk: “Be reasonable, do it MY way”!
When I was in Medical school I read a book on the “Helper’s syndrome” or “The helpless helper”, where weak people seek out even weaker ones to “care” for them but in fact it is to feel “better” and “superior” and “in command”. It was awful and I wanted quit, but then found the solution of “assisting” the patients in difficult situations and thus not making them dependant upon me. I learned that I have to accompany the people on THEIR journey, and to accept when they chose NOT to be accompanied by me, and that they are free in every aspect to choose from all the possibilities life has to offer and my advice is just a little contribution to the abundance of life. It works quite well in my professional life, but it is difficult in private (especially with my sister and how she is educating my niece, or NOT educating her; she then always sais you don’t have children!)
But with trusted people as here at LF it is so wonderful to get answers, validation, a different view from the most astonishing group of caring, careful, wonderful people. It is not advice “Be reasonable, do it MY way”, but enhancing the creativity of thinking by walking around the problem, by looking at it from a different angle, and sometimes it is necessary to have me take off the rose colored glasses. I feel here very safe, validated and able to see the problems through different eyes and mirrors and can take the bits and pieces I need to “get the picture”. Thank you all so much! Peace, and sleep well! (((((HUGS))))))
JAH wrote” “Sounds like you have a great boundary set about being controlled! Woo hoo!!! ”
WOW, that is true. Something to celebrate for sure.
PS I’m still working on what a boundary is and what it is not.
But, yes, I will protect myself from being controlled by anyone, if I perceive it as control, for sure!
Dear JAH,
When I started to set boundaries I was SO UNSURE of them being “reasonable” and ;I was TOTALLY FREAKED OUT ABOUT setting “Unreaonable ones.” For some reason I can’t allow myself to EVER BE UN-“reasonable.” DUH!
So at first, I would tell my son D (tearfully and with great anxiety and self doubt) “Is this a reasonable boundary” (cause, buddy-o I knew it was gonna PISS’EM OFF!) He would listen and VALIDATE that my boundary was REASONABLE. then with more confidence I would go set the boundary as “nicely, but firmly” as I could. Eventually, I got to the point that I was NO LONGER FEELING THE NEED for PRE-validation before I would set a boundary, I could validate it ME OWN SELF.
I think back to those days like “training wheels on a bike” and as my success grew, my CONFIDENCE grew to where I can now set boundaries with much less ANXIETY and more self confidence that I have the RIGHT to do so. What is so funny now, is that “time” in terms of months etc. is only a little over a year ago!!!!!
I also understand LILY’s GREAT point about when folks gave her advice SHE felt that they were trying to CONTROL her. I usually didn’t feel that way, when I was GIVEN advice, but at the same time, I didn’t MEAN to be “controlling” when I GAVE advice, but I guess I WAS, or I wouldn’t have felt irritation or anger when it wasn’t taken.
While I WAS controlled by others, I actually FELT that I was in control, or at least denied their control and was delusional that I HAD ANY CONTROL at all. LOL How is that for a bunch of “triple negatives” Miz Lily (English teacher! LOL)?
What a terrible mis-mash of feelings, none of them based on reality!!!
I’m not so sure that “enabling” isn’t a bred-in-the-bones genetic trait just like psychopathic-aggression and control is bred in the bones to a great extent, but in any case, by the time we are adults and have practiceed this enabling for decades, it is DIFFICULT to “reform” ourselves and our knee-jerk tendencies to do so. Just like an alky may have to fight the desire daily to drink, I have to fight the ENABLING desire daily, and monitor myself.
I almost feel like I am living in a different “culture” with a “different language” than the one I was born in, and I feel like I may never fully acclimate into the new second language totally where it becomes “automatic” or I don’t have to think about it it my native language and then TRANSLATE it before I act. I know that there are people who have “language” skills that they can learn a second language and “easily think” in that language, but i think I will always “think” in “Enabling lauguage” and have to TRANSLATE into non-enabling ACTION.
Back to the underwater life saving thing in the over turned helicopter, my husband said that there was no way to get to the man (who had actually CAUSED the crash in the small helicopter by refusing to stay off the skid, sit down and buckle his seat belt) without putting himself at risk. To prove that “no good deed goes unpunished” the man later filed charges against my husband (the pilot) with the FAA. Fortunately, my husband was exonerated, and the man was fired by the company they both worked for. From the description of this man’s behavior and attitudes both before and after the crash, I think he must have been a high level N.
Definining what is MY RESPONSIBILITY and what is NOT, I think is my biggest trouble. Because, unfortunately, what is someone else’s responsibility will ADVERSELY EFFECT ME if they do not fulfill it. (Like the wife who “enables” her drunk husband not to lose his job by calling his boss and saying eh was “sick” when in reality he was drunk.) It is HIS responsibilty to go to work and not lay out drunk, but if he DOES lay out drink, she is “punished” by the family finances being adversely effected. So, she assumes it is HER responsibility to prevent this calamity to the family by “fixing” the situation and calling the boss and telling him a lie.
The CONSEQUENCES of irresponsible (or bad) behavior are NOT limited to the person who is IRRESPONSIBLE or badly behaved. So, I for one, tried to (as I had been trained) “fix” the situation. Of course this was FUTILE and the consequences in the end were WORSE. I’m learning, I’m doing the best I can to “reform” but some days it isn’t easy.
Very well put Oxy.
Sorry to abruptly change the subject but WOW! I had given up on my family. But this morning, I wrote an email to my sister, stating why I was not in contact with my brother and here was her reply “I have gained more insight into our family with your email than I have gained over the past 67 years put together! You have certainly looked at these issues with greater depth than I ever dared to. …Sometime I will have to sit down with you and have a long talk….maybe you have answers to many of the questions I was always afraid to ask!”
I had told her in my email that I have great compassion for her, because I had witnessed what my mom did to her when she was a teen, and also told her the truth about my narcissiopath brother. That he can never feel love, that he is exploitive, etc and I thought she would blow that off.
I TOTALLY expected her to not respond and to write me off. I was telling her our Mom was NOT a normal person. Instead, it seems that me being the only witness to what she went through and validating that for her, really opened her eyes to what she has not wanted to see. I’m speechless.
I also feel compassion for her, because I know that horrible feeling when you first come out of the FOG. I know all that she will start gradually realizing and how painful it is going to be. I’m not completely through it myself. I do know that from this point forward, I will answer any questions she asks, but am not going to point out anymore stuff to her about her PRESENT reality. It will be best that she uncover that at a pace her mind can accept.
I don’t mean to sound like I’m light years ahead of her. I’m not, but until today, I don’t think she realized anything, that she was in a complete FOG about the family and blaming herself.
Well, it has shown me that when you speak your truth with humility and honesty, SOMETIMES the listener really does hear, really does take it in.
PS I wasn’t giving any advice to her, just explaining why I was done with my brother. No anger toward him expressed, just a sadness about who and what he is, and an understanding of where it came from.
Oxy,
Thanks for this reminder. My issue LOUD and CLEAR. And one that is certainly in my bones from way back.
JAH–congratulations on having a breakthrough with your sister. I know it must feel really good to help, just the right amount, and see a tiny light go on for her. It’s all in the balance, huh?
Great article! Right on cue as always…just when i needed it!
Blueskies:
“I wish someone had knocked me out and saved me, I think it might have been the only way”….this is SPOT ON! That is the only way I would have been saved in every single P instance. And we DO get “knocked out”, but usually by the P when we leave anyway, so it might as well be by someone else, only a little earlier!
I would have done what Oxy’s husband did, unless it had been my child. Then i would have panic-ed too and killed us both for sure.
“The truth will pith you off before it sets you free”
That is what they always teach you in first aid: Who is the most important person at a scene of carnage and destruction where you are supposed to “”save” someone ? YOU ARE, because unless you are in one piece you are useless to anyone else.
Please don’t forget my Aussie irony, when i say, “if the child had been my P daughter it would have saved the world a bunch of trouble”.
Jah, I’m thrilled about the communication with your sister, also. Her reply was surely filled with gratitude that some unanswered questions of hers (that she was afraid to ask) finally came together for her. I’m thrilled for her, too.
It will be interesting (and exciting) how she uncovers the rest at her own pace — with you lovingly “holding her hand.” (That’s helping in a good way, I think.)