By Ox Drover
I was thinking about a blog post and reply that had gone on between another poster and myself on Lovefraud about trying to “help” others see the “light” and get away from their own personal psychopath.
I mulled over what I had done in my life in trying to “fix” others by coming up with a solution that they could take to ease their pain from their prior bad choices. I would wrack my brain up and down, left and right, to try to come up with a “plan” that would help these people “fix” whatever mess they got into of their own free will.
Some people would call this “co-dependent” and others would call this “enabling.” Whatever term you want to apply to it, I called it “helping,” but the bottom line is that this behavior on my part was not “helping” these people, it was me trying to take responsibility for the consequences of their bad choices or bad behavior.
Many times these people would say “That’s a good idea, but ”¦” and would not take my very best suggestion that I was sure would work. So, as a consequence, I would get frustrated at them or angry with them for being so stubborn or stupid! (How arrogant of me!)
Other times, they would take part of my wonderful solution and it would not work because they didn’t use all of it, and then they would get mad at me for giving them such bad advice. It was all my fault because it didn’t work and they were still hurting.
The point is, that they got into the fix in the first place, and it is not my responsibility to get them out. I am not “helping” them by trying to take over running their life. I can, if they are willing, support them by saying “Boy, you must be feeling bad/sad/mad about that situation.” That is validating their feelings and is a true statement and is supportive.
Suggestions on Lovefraud
Even here on Lovefraud when we give “advice” about what we would do or what idea we think would work, it should be on our part, a suggestion if asked, or noted as our opinion. We all must make our own choices, our own decisions, and live with the consequences. Lovefraud is a supportive place, and the people here are very validating because they too have lived through the chaos with a psychopath in one way or another.
Sometimes we have bloggers come here for advice and we freely give it, and those bloggers do not take our advice, they make excuses for their dysfunctional relationship with a presumably dysfunctional or psychopathic person and stay with or go back to that person, or in some cases, go into another dysfunctional relationship. Of course we are disappointed that that was their choice, but it was their choice. We have not failed when they do not take our advice. It is not our fault that they did not get away from the danger.
We can still feel empathy for these people, but we should not feel that we are failures because our compassion and/or advice was ignored. We can only do what we can do.
Can’t save the unwilling
Back “before enlightenment” I used to feel really badly if my advice was refused or didn’t work, but I think I have turned a corner in my compassionate nature and in my desire to assist or help someone in their recovery from entanglement in dysfunctional relationships. I no longer feel that it is my responsibility to “save” someone if they are not willing to give it all they have got as well.
To use an analogy of swimming, my late husband was a very experienced swimmer and a lifeguard certification instructor. He had a situation once where he had a victim trapped inside a turned over helicopter in the water. Every time he would swim down to try to rescue the man, the man was hysterical and kept trying to pull him under with him. My husband quickly saw the situation and went back to the surface until there were no more bubbles coming out from the water. Then he went back to get the unconscious man and brought him to the surface. If my husband had tried to rescue the man while he was still consciously fighting him, they would have both died. By waiting until it was safe to do so, my husband saved them both.
When we are trying to “save” someone who is floundering in the flood waters of a miserable and dysfunctional relationship and they are asking for help, yet fighting that help at the same time, sometimes we can only wait until they are no longer fighting the help we offer them. We must firmly set a boundary that “I will not allow your problems to drag me under as well.”
My late husband wanted to rescue that man, but he was not willing to let the man pull him under as well, and he set a boundary. “Until you stop fighting me, I am not going to come back.” What would my husband have felt if after he did pull up the man and the man could not be revived and he was dead? I don’t know, of course, for sure, but my bet, knowing my husband, is that he would not have spent the rest of his life grieving for not having rescued that man in time. He would have said, I think, “I did the best I could, but I couldn’t let him pull me under and drown me as well.”
I have tried unsuccessfully to rescue my psychopathic offspring and my enabling maternal DNA donor, and for years let them pull me under the “water” until I nearly drowned in the process. Every time I would “fail” to rescue them because they fought me tooth and nail, I felt guilty, I felt inadequate, I felt that I had failed, and threw myself right back into the water of despair. Now, I realize I can’t rescue them against their wills, and I am no longer willing to risk my own life to try to do so. I can’t help them, and they won’t allow me to rescue them. I no longer feel disappointed, sad, grief-stricken or inadequate because of that. They have the choice to swim if they want to, and I have the choice not to risk my life in a futile attempt to save them from themselves. The best part of it all now is, though, that I no longer castigate myself for “failing” to rescue them. I no longer feel guilty or inadequate for their choices. I can let them be responsible for themselves and I am responsible for myself. That is freedom; that is peace. We can only do what we can do.
JAH,
Sometimes other VICTIMS CAN BE reached, with compassion and care and ON THEIR OWN TIME….it takes time to catch it and get it, and sometimes when you are in denial you don’t listen to the advice or warning. I know there were times I WAS WARNED and DID NOT LISTEN. So I feel sure that since I have done that myself, it is also probably something others have done as well…and people here have mentioned that they have tried to warn others who did not listen (Biddy is an example of people who were warned and chose not to listen/believe it) and other times other people have also mentioend that they were warned and didn’t listen. So I think this is probably PRETTY COMMON.
But, as others here have “testified” they didn’t listen either, to warnings, or they went back time after time but eventually, the time WAS THEIR TIME and they listend and acted.
HOWEVER, with the heavy duty Ns and Ps, there is NO way it will EVER be their time. With some heavy duty ENABLERS, it will never be their time. with VICTIMS, sometimes their time does come. I think we should always be OPEN to those victims that FINALLY get it and not give up hope for them, but UNTIL IT IS THEIR TIME, we can’t keep “hammering” on them, giving them advice that at THAT TIME they do not want to hear.
Lily, my dear friend, I hope that your children (or at least some of them) will come to the TIME when they can see the truth, and are not Ns or Ps (like their father) but simply other victims who will IN TIME GET IT. That is my prayer for you and them, and I am sure is also your prayer. But while we WAIT, we must ACCEPT WHAT IS TODAY’s REALITY for our OWN sakes. It’s not easy, my dear.
I will bet at some point it was painful to accept the reality that your husband was a MONSTER WHO WOULD NEVER CHANGE. It must also be painful to thing that your child/ren could be like him as well, or be dupes or victims as well, and not to know WHICH it is. whether to hold on to hope or give up. Not knowing is a b1atch in itself. ((((hang on though)))) You know you are not alone!!!! (((Hugs and God bless)
Oxy, with the sincerest hope I am not misunderstood, I just lovingly remind you that each of us has our own filters, just as you do.
I appreciate your prayers for my children — but neither I nor they (at least 3 of them) are not in denial.
All of us are trying to deal with our REALITY as best we can.
I have heard your “warnings” but some of them just don’t apply, ok?
Oops — double negative.
It shoudl be: At least 3 of my children are NOT in denial, and neither am I.
I’ve mentioned before that I just haven’t given you enough information to make better assumptions about our situation — that does change periodically as the weeks and months go by.
Some things just can’t be put into a public forum or in an email, either — like the details of yesterday afternoon.
I know you have a good heart and that your motives are well-intended. I do! I KNOW that.
Oxy,
Would is be vain of me to assume you were referencing our conversation? : )
I was just sharing with my mom, and I told her that when she threatened to never speak to me again, my inclination was to think ‘I can’t go back to im because I don’t want my mom to hate me.’
This is not what we want victims to do though.
The correct thought here is. ‘I do not want to go back to him because he is toxic.’
I am in a position of strength, thank God, because of NC, and time.
I have no love for my P other than that what I have for human-kind.
I just resent that I have actually started feeling sorry for him.
There is no Part of me that wants that R back. I know this. I am not lying.
BUT they are great at the pity ploy, and at times he has me thinking ‘maybe is does have feelings’.
Then I get upset, sad, frustrated that I have lost sight of my new future. This is where the sadness comes from. I think.
Dear Oxy, Kathy, Erin, and all you great,supportive people om LF,Im in a lot of pain right now, I expected it, but its relentless, day and night, the guilt is the worst, the “second guessing” of myself”. since I sent THAT letter to my daughter 6 weeks ago, setting boundaries or else NC. I havent heard a peep out of her since, nor do I expect to. I assume she is thinking,”Mum will give in, she always has before, then I can suckerpunch her again.” This time, Im determined NOT to give in, but I feel like ratshit.Its a terrible thing to say but it maybe would be easier if shed died, then eventually Id be able to grieve, and get over it, but with a NS I have learned that they NEVER CHANGE, as its nevr their fault in their eyes.
As my other daughter is the same [or worse,} and I have 2 disfunctional emotionally screwed up Narc brothers, this is all the blood family I have left, except for a female cousin who has Munchhausens syndrome! LOL! what a mob! Thank god for david and my lovely “adopted” Iranian adult “kids”.
I guess Ill just have to ride this wave of pain, I cant avoid it, I was expecting it, and here it is! Love and peace, geminigirlXX
Oh, geminigirl, I’ve wanted several times to respond to you and let you know that I think I understand your pain of lack of normal and loving communication with your daughters.
I actually grieved for my 4 children for 5 years before I could accept the “reality” of the depth of the smear campaign and the parental alienation. I can’t explain it better than that.
And I really don’t know what to say to you except that I am “hearing” you and wish I could hug you tight and wipe away your tears.
During one of my worst days — about 5 years ago now, a new friend’s husband (in her presence) just hugged me with no words, just tightly hugged me as I cried. The wife hugged me, too, but not so prolonged as the husband. (I hope this doesn’t sound perverse, because it wasn’t)
It was so strengthening! Ever since, I have asked to hug others (when it is appropriate occasion) including most of my doctors and their nurses.
All through my children’s lives (before I escaped), we hugged every day and I missed it SO MUCH. Their spouses were huggers, too, and of course, all of the grandchildren!
I am a “natural” hugger, though, and if you are not, this may not be as therapeutic to you as it was to me.
But, those hugs and my daily reading of Scripture and sometimes all day listening to Christian TV or radio were the only things that comforted me. Actually, these activities still continue. My internist does not even know of my background but today I asked if I could hug her as I left and she giggled and said, “Of course.” She is younger than my youngest daughter, even.
I had intended to tell her about the FEAR episode of yesterday but I didn’t because God had already given His message to me about what to do.
I feel sure that God will comfort you, too, and give you the strength you need to endure. I hope it doesn’t take as long as it has for me, but I assure you that if I can survive, so can you.
I CARE!
I meant to add that the daily hugs were what I missed most of all. And the daily “I love you.”
I am very fortunate that several of my grandchildren have called me quite regularly. One of the last times, my only great-grandson, now 17 months, said, “Eye uve ewe.” before his mother hung up.
Thrilled my heart — and eased the remaining ache.
A light little story that I hope makes you smile.
I had told my granddaughter that I can now walk after 4.5 months of healing from a broken hip — but that I walk like a penquin. She repeated that good news to her husband — and then started laughing.
Liltte great-grandson was walking like a penquin, saying “ey uve pennkees” over and over. (He watches cartoons!)
Dearest newlily, thank you thank you, from the bottom of my heart! it helps so much to know that you and others on this site care, and have been thru the same mill of pain. I do love hugs, and as mu “adopted” Iranian adult “kids” are coming over for lunch tomorrow, I know Ill give and get plenty of hugs from them!God is so good, giving me anew adopted daughter to love and cherish. It doesnt mean I dont love my own two, but it sure helps! And they are so sweet, and so appreciative of us, and what we try to do for themLots and lots of {{{HUGs}}} dearest girl! Maia{geminigirl}Ps I love the Penguin story!!
OXY dear, i was laughing reading ur post, because i have recognized myself and my motion to help, to give an advice.
It is easy to give an advice, what is hard is to accept it. Moreover, seeking an advice, ppl tend to filtrate them and accept what “suites” them (denial and FOG indeed).
Finally i understood that nomatter how similar stories are, every one is unique as well, and what works for me doesnt have to work with u. In addition, ppl are different, there are many different character types, and we all react according to them, unwillingly and out of conscience – it is our nature.
Still, there is one FACT – LF IS HELPING PLACE, because we all here understand, we relate a way or another, we have traveled the same journey. Some of us enjoy mountains, some of us enjoy rivers, some of us enjoy valley, but we are all on the same train, though not the same destination.
What makes this place special are PEOPLE, warm, understanding, compasionate. So even if i dont like ur advice or i dont accept it fully or partly. I KNOW U UNDERSTAND, i know ur emphaty , i know u care. We all need to tell our story without fear we will be taken as crazy, we feel held and loved, and thats why many ppl come back here, even after healing.
There are professional who can help, BUT IT IS DIFFERENT, nomatter how good they are in own job/proffesion, it is still a JOB and we are PAYING a service. HERE ITS DIFFERENT, if u like – more human (due to all respect to our psychologists). We do not work on each other, WE EMPHASYZE!
Thank u, dear OXY, and thank all of wonderful ppl on LF