By Ox Drover
I was thinking about a blog post and reply that had gone on between another poster and myself on Lovefraud about trying to “help” others see the “light” and get away from their own personal psychopath.
I mulled over what I had done in my life in trying to “fix” others by coming up with a solution that they could take to ease their pain from their prior bad choices. I would wrack my brain up and down, left and right, to try to come up with a “plan” that would help these people “fix” whatever mess they got into of their own free will.
Some people would call this “co-dependent” and others would call this “enabling.” Whatever term you want to apply to it, I called it “helping,” but the bottom line is that this behavior on my part was not “helping” these people, it was me trying to take responsibility for the consequences of their bad choices or bad behavior.
Many times these people would say “That’s a good idea, but ”¦” and would not take my very best suggestion that I was sure would work. So, as a consequence, I would get frustrated at them or angry with them for being so stubborn or stupid! (How arrogant of me!)
Other times, they would take part of my wonderful solution and it would not work because they didn’t use all of it, and then they would get mad at me for giving them such bad advice. It was all my fault because it didn’t work and they were still hurting.
The point is, that they got into the fix in the first place, and it is not my responsibility to get them out. I am not “helping” them by trying to take over running their life. I can, if they are willing, support them by saying “Boy, you must be feeling bad/sad/mad about that situation.” That is validating their feelings and is a true statement and is supportive.
Suggestions on Lovefraud
Even here on Lovefraud when we give “advice” about what we would do or what idea we think would work, it should be on our part, a suggestion if asked, or noted as our opinion. We all must make our own choices, our own decisions, and live with the consequences. Lovefraud is a supportive place, and the people here are very validating because they too have lived through the chaos with a psychopath in one way or another.
Sometimes we have bloggers come here for advice and we freely give it, and those bloggers do not take our advice, they make excuses for their dysfunctional relationship with a presumably dysfunctional or psychopathic person and stay with or go back to that person, or in some cases, go into another dysfunctional relationship. Of course we are disappointed that that was their choice, but it was their choice. We have not failed when they do not take our advice. It is not our fault that they did not get away from the danger.
We can still feel empathy for these people, but we should not feel that we are failures because our compassion and/or advice was ignored. We can only do what we can do.
Can’t save the unwilling
Back “before enlightenment” I used to feel really badly if my advice was refused or didn’t work, but I think I have turned a corner in my compassionate nature and in my desire to assist or help someone in their recovery from entanglement in dysfunctional relationships. I no longer feel that it is my responsibility to “save” someone if they are not willing to give it all they have got as well.
To use an analogy of swimming, my late husband was a very experienced swimmer and a lifeguard certification instructor. He had a situation once where he had a victim trapped inside a turned over helicopter in the water. Every time he would swim down to try to rescue the man, the man was hysterical and kept trying to pull him under with him. My husband quickly saw the situation and went back to the surface until there were no more bubbles coming out from the water. Then he went back to get the unconscious man and brought him to the surface. If my husband had tried to rescue the man while he was still consciously fighting him, they would have both died. By waiting until it was safe to do so, my husband saved them both.
When we are trying to “save” someone who is floundering in the flood waters of a miserable and dysfunctional relationship and they are asking for help, yet fighting that help at the same time, sometimes we can only wait until they are no longer fighting the help we offer them. We must firmly set a boundary that “I will not allow your problems to drag me under as well.”
My late husband wanted to rescue that man, but he was not willing to let the man pull him under as well, and he set a boundary. “Until you stop fighting me, I am not going to come back.” What would my husband have felt if after he did pull up the man and the man could not be revived and he was dead? I don’t know, of course, for sure, but my bet, knowing my husband, is that he would not have spent the rest of his life grieving for not having rescued that man in time. He would have said, I think, “I did the best I could, but I couldn’t let him pull me under and drown me as well.”
I have tried unsuccessfully to rescue my psychopathic offspring and my enabling maternal DNA donor, and for years let them pull me under the “water” until I nearly drowned in the process. Every time I would “fail” to rescue them because they fought me tooth and nail, I felt guilty, I felt inadequate, I felt that I had failed, and threw myself right back into the water of despair. Now, I realize I can’t rescue them against their wills, and I am no longer willing to risk my own life to try to do so. I can’t help them, and they won’t allow me to rescue them. I no longer feel disappointed, sad, grief-stricken or inadequate because of that. They have the choice to swim if they want to, and I have the choice not to risk my life in a futile attempt to save them from themselves. The best part of it all now is, though, that I no longer castigate myself for “failing” to rescue them. I no longer feel guilty or inadequate for their choices. I can let them be responsible for themselves and I am responsible for myself. That is freedom; that is peace. We can only do what we can do.
Just small comparation:
I suffered huge pain in stomack, visited one great GI, retired, and he told me i have to change regime, to keep diet. I asked him what can i eat, what should i eat, and his answer was:
EAT WHATEVER, ur body will tell u what. Avoid food what produces pain and take what doesnt. I can only tell u which food produces more/less acids, but response of ur body is the most important.
Hi, I’m new to the site and have spent lots of time reading all the blogs. I am out the other end of a “relationship” with a ps and drifting in and out of denial as I seem to be trying to rest on something that I can “live with” in my head as a reason why someone I loved would control, manipulate, lie, cheat, rob yet all the while pretend he was loving, affectionate, hard working committed…so peppered with I love you…these mixed messages resemble the ones I grew up with…you know saying the words but the body language would say something else? this nearly drove me crazy…I think you have to cultivate a highly sophisticated way of reading mixed messages to get to the truth if it does not drive you crazy first.
So what I am left with is a sense of bewilderment. shock. I’m on shifting sand and cant settle anywhere yet..I am worried that you actually get what you want to believe…so if I believe this man is a lost cause, remorseless unchangeable human being then I have become like him in some way…
Hello Oxy and Everyone,
I’m sure that most of you are aware of my ongoing “mission” to help Biddy understand that my ex, now her husband, is a full blown sociopath. Every time something goes wrong, I hear from her. Yet, when I remind her that she is dealing with a sociopath and go to endless lengths to help her understand…she goes into defense mode. If anything, I fear that I may have pushed her CLOSER to him. She’s approaching me more now that I’ve remarried. She and my ex S got married exactly a week after I married my current husband. But, you know what? I finally decided that I’d use my S experience to attempt to help people who want it…like the good people here on LF. It’s sad…but I fear that when someone approaches us and asked us what makes a person behave in such a manner and we come back with “he’s/she’s a sociopath”…their minds automatically go to Bundy or Manson. It’s just too much for them to swallow. My husband and I are both fans of crime shows. I’d give anything if just ONCE they would do a program documenting the behavior of what I’ll call the “everyday” sociopath. Afterall, aren’t they the most common? I feel very badly for the victims of serial murders/rapes…but what about US…we’re victims, too, and most of us will be affected the remainder of our lives by what these people did to us…if nothing else…just by knowing that we once fell prey to them.
Several people asked questions or made comments, I will try to answer them all if I miss any, it is CRS! LOL
First___welcome STAYING SANE, glad you are here–you are at the RIGHT PLACE. Stay around and read and learn, Knowledge=power and power=peace. Again Welcome.
Banana: I have CRS (can’t remember “STUFF’) or some word tht starts with an S. LOL anyway, I wrote that article and sent to Donna several weeks ago, and I honestly can’t remember who I was blogging with that triggered me to think about the subject. but definitely COULD have been an article with you and especially considering the STAGE you are in right now, or were a week or so ago —a very normal stage I might add. I wanted someone to tell me what to odo sometimes, and that way I didn’ t have to make a decision and if per chance it went wrong–hey, I just “followed orders”—I think that was the excuse some of the Germans tried for war crimes tried to us. I “juist did what someone else told me to–wasn’t my fault I did X, Y or Z.”
In the end, whether we like it or not, Banana, if we get the consequences of an action of ours, we are responsible. One way or another. And that is NOT blaming the victim, she/he is not to “blame” for someone beating them up, but if they hav eseen violent behavior prior and they go back, on their own or anyone else’s suggestion, they are RESPONSIBLE for the consequences.
Tossing ideas back and forth between two people is NOT a bad idea on just about ANY project, but the person who has to do the action (or take no action) on THEIR problem is the one RESPONSIBLE for the outcome, because they made the FINAL decision. The person making suggestions or bouncing ideas around may have actually been “right” but that person has NO “right” to be angry at the person whose RESPONSIBILY the stuation was failed. Or guilt either.
In the TNewman & Biddy situation, Biddy SEEMS TO keep coming to Tami “asking advice and seeking counsel”—but in realiity she she is DOING NEITHER. She is looking for validation of the decisions she is making, she is looking for excuses to stay with him, and somehow looking to get rid of her FEAR of making a decision. She is going to stay with him until she decides to leaver. PERIOD. We all “stayed til we decided to leave.” Ultimately we ALL make our own decisions for our own actions. WE ARE ADULTS.
A child has a “protector” called a parent to give them (hopefully) advice and even ORDERS along with consequences to guide and protect them. the child has and needs this wiser and older “protector-parent” to KEEP THEM SAFE AS THEY ARE NOT CAPABALE of making wise or sensible decisions. If the parent tells the chld to do something and it turns out badly, the RESPONSIBILIT falls back on to the parent for advising the child wrongly or in error. The CHILD themselves is ABSOLVED OF RESPONSIBILITY for the DECISION and ultimately for the outcome.
However, we cannot go back into childhood and in a healthy way let others take responsibility for our actions. Nor shouold be TAKE responsibility for another adults actions..
I think I understand why Banana’s mother might (out of frustration) be trying to say “leave him or else.” In reality though, she does not have that right to order her daughter around, her daughter is an adult. To me that comes across as an angry “threat” to withdraw love.
I don’t, however, see anything wrong with Banana’s mom saying something like, “Banana, darling. Your dad and I love you and Lilttle Banana very much, but we firmly believe that “Maggot” is not treating you and Banana well. You are aware of our feelings about this, in the mean time, your dad and I prefer not to discuss this and keep tensions high. You are always welcome in our home, but because of our feelings about Maggot, we would rather have you and Little Banana visit us without him, or we could meet you and little Banana some where else, but we prefer not to associate with maggot while he is behaving in this way.”
I am sure there are thousands of ways to say my above intended”conversation” differently and many many that might be better, but to me, that shows Banana that her parents love her, are concerned about her, and DISapprove of maggot’s BEHAVIOR, and hold out some little hope to Banana that he might change, but NOT too much!
Tami Newman, I agree sometimes that “sociopath” or “psychopath” turns people off—sometimes we have to start with the definition, I think, and work backackwards to the WORD rather than the other way round. I’ve seen some great books on “Emotional Vampires” that never mentioned the word (I think it should have at some point) but TOTALLY described S/Ps and cluster Bs in general (TOXIC).
Lily, my dear, you have borne so much for so long, I think you are capable of anything!!!! Your heart is so good and you trust in God, what better defenses could anyone have!
Geminigirl, I have felt for so long that my adopted son D is a gift from God to replace the son I lost, I am glad that you have these loving, warm caring “adoptees” as well….”family” is NOT only about blood, but about LOVE. (((hugs))) and my prayers for us all.
StayingSane said: “drifting in and out of denial as I seem to be trying to rest on something that I can “live with” in my head as a reason why someone I loved would control, manipulate, lie, cheat, rob yet all the while pretend he was loving, affectionate, hard working committed”……….I am worried that you actually get what you want to believe”so if I believe this man is a lost cause, remorseless unchangeable human being then I have become like him in some way”
Welcome to LoveFraud, Staying Sane. Sounds like you are drifting in and out of the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt), but since you are “questionning”, IMO you are definitely making progress. Unfortunately, some people really are a lost cause and are remorseless, but coming to realize that about someone you cared for does not make you “like” them in some way. It simply means you have begun to recognize the signs, the contradictions in behavior and words that don’t compute and match how they attempt to present their personality most of the time.
The articles are great to get a base understanding of how a sociopath operates etc. So, read the articles and keep posting. And again, welcome. –Jenn
BlueSkies said: “I wish someone had knocked me out and saved me, I think it might have been the only way. ”
Me, too, BlueSkies, me too. I think knocking me out or maybe if they had hog tied me and locked me up for a few months that may have done it. But I suppose in real life that is not an option, except maybe down in Florida (?) where you can Baker Act someone, although I am not sure what the requirements are for that.
I also have the “problem” of wanting to offer advice or opinons and part of it I think is that I sooooooo want the person to get out and stay out and avoid the type of harm I went through. It is so much easier to see the problem” when you are not the one directly involved in it and you (or I) just want to scream RUN RUN RUN or whatever advice I think they need to hear (even if it is not gentle).
I also have to keep reminding myself that even though a person may need to vent and may even ask advice, that they often are not going to take it (just like I vented and talked about what I should do or was gonna do, but often did not follow thru). I repeated this cycle so many times with two friends (one by phone and one via email, and neither of which even lived in the same state with me) that it was not funny. I will be forever grateful and also amazed at their patience with me and although they would advise me or encourage me or yell(thru email at me and one of them did not mince ANY words or opinons and frankly her bluntness was what I needed), neither one of them ever once threw in the towel and threw up their hands in disgust and deserted me when I failed to follow thru or maintain no contact. If they had, I am not sure I would even be here today as I was just that far gone into the depths of despair.
I agree with Oxy you can’t drown yourself while trying to help someone else as then you are no good to them either. But I think if it is someone you really care about, you can regroup and recharge and still be there for them, even if only on the outskirts by just letting them know “if” they are ever ready, you are there for them.
So, anyway, if I find myself growing frustrated with a person who is staying stuck (and I personally do not think being supportive entails just being kind and gentle and always telling a person what they “want” to hear, or otherwise you are a meanie. I believe tough love sometimes helps and one of my friend’s tough love approach in not mincing words about exactly what she thought about the ex psychopath and exactly what she thought I should do about it really helped me, even if I did not do what she said), —anyway, when I get frustrated with a victim, I find it is ME that needs to regroup and get myself in check because I need to go back and try to remember what it was like for me when I was in that stage, so I need to understand it has nothing to do with them deliberately dissing or miscountring any advice (nothing personal in other words, just they are still too far in the fog). I also have to remind myself to be patient even if they ask the same advice over and over again and don’t take it, or just make mild attempts at taking it. (I also did this and would slip back in the FOG).
I have a person who is very close to me (known them all their lives) who is in a situation right now that I would have never dreamed they would be in. I am trying to be there for them, and although they have already been thru one rather serious mishap (with what I think is a sociopath), and I gave my two cents worth because they brought the issue up with me and they seemed to “get it”, then ended up going right back—-I had to give myself a reality check and a good talking to as I see alot of the same behaviors going on that went on with me. So, bottom line is I have to hold on loosely and now try to be careful of any advice and just make it clear I am here for them and they always have a place to come and stay etc. if needed. Ok, this has gotten so long and I have gotten so far off track that I guess I will shut up because I forgot what my original point was that I wanted to make!!!! lol
Hi ladies, I have not posted in over a year, but thought to check in tonight, something triggered my memory of this wonderful website.
My theory about ‘we can only do what we can do’ is right in line with OxDrover, but know that when people come here, (I’m a great example), they already sort of know what the problem is and what they should do. Someone said it earlier in this string – we are just looking for validation of what we already know. I came here and was stunned at what I found, and without a doubt it helped give me the strength to get out and move on after 13 years of an abusive marriage.
While I was certainly an enabler, I also stuck with him under the delusion that – ah – I could help!! I could rescue him, blah blah. But again: if you want to be rescued, you will be. If you’re ready for enlightenment, you’ll find it. And if you’re not, you will perpetuate the cycle of drama and pain, with or without your abuser.
The biggest and best lesson of everything that happened to me is to never ever become a victim – not only to others but to yourself. Help yourself above all, and the goodwill and beauty that grows within you will overflow and, by default, spread joy and peace. And when people see that peace, they will want it too.
So Jen2008 – you are quite right, you can be there for the person in need, but in the end, they have to be ready to let go of the pain. And that’s not something you can give them – you can nudge them in the right direction, but while you’re doing that, making sure you’re not inadvertently feeding the drama too.
One thing that should encourage anyone who comes here for solace and advice: the pain and hardship that you’ve had to endure is bringing you to that moment of peace faster than you can know. You will wake up one day and see it, even if it feels impossible now.
tmassar1. Hello! I do remember your name, good to hear you are doing well. I never thought about how I am a victim of myself, a whole new perspective to think about! I don’t want to do anything to hurt myself anymore, I have to stay out of the fog, and I pray for the joy and peace you have found! God bless you.
tmassar1:
When they keep turning up in my life as often as they do it is hard to let go of it. it seems to keep happening, not just partners and family but teachers and “friends”. i am so sick of them turning up everywhere.
I think the behaviors Biddy is having and some of mine at this stage even, are codependent.
I have been reading “Codependent No More”. I have to work through it as a work-book for best results, but it is very enlightening even as a read-through.
I have also been reading “Just like his father” and just started “Getting through my Thick Skull” so I have to get back to my codependent healing : )
It’s just this weakness that we had, we were targets. In some ways it was our fault that the P’S got their hooks into us.
It may not be our fault that we were weak or had low self-esteem, but we are in charge of our healing.
I have said, “he’s so convincing, I can’t help it.” NO NO NO. I am the ONE responsible for this, and yes OXY, we are stronger than we give ourselves credit for. and I believe the more we use it the stronger and more confident I get. Even like seeing the OW. I had PTSD like feelings about it, but when I saw he, and walked away I was amazed at how little it really impacted me ,and I gained strength from that experience.
Tonight I have to face STBXP’s parents, and am not feeling well about it, but I have strength from where I have been and have faith that I will be ok.
I thank God for removing me from this M early. I believe he has used this to expose my weaknesses and get me the healing I need even of past hurts from childhood.
BTW my therapist uses Theophostic Prayer and it’s amazing!!!!
Peace and Love to you all.
Banana