By Ox Drover
I was thinking about a blog post and reply that had gone on between another poster and myself on Lovefraud about trying to “help” others see the “light” and get away from their own personal psychopath.
I mulled over what I had done in my life in trying to “fix” others by coming up with a solution that they could take to ease their pain from their prior bad choices. I would wrack my brain up and down, left and right, to try to come up with a “plan” that would help these people “fix” whatever mess they got into of their own free will.
Some people would call this “co-dependent” and others would call this “enabling.” Whatever term you want to apply to it, I called it “helping,” but the bottom line is that this behavior on my part was not “helping” these people, it was me trying to take responsibility for the consequences of their bad choices or bad behavior.
Many times these people would say “That’s a good idea, but ”¦” and would not take my very best suggestion that I was sure would work. So, as a consequence, I would get frustrated at them or angry with them for being so stubborn or stupid! (How arrogant of me!)
Other times, they would take part of my wonderful solution and it would not work because they didn’t use all of it, and then they would get mad at me for giving them such bad advice. It was all my fault because it didn’t work and they were still hurting.
The point is, that they got into the fix in the first place, and it is not my responsibility to get them out. I am not “helping” them by trying to take over running their life. I can, if they are willing, support them by saying “Boy, you must be feeling bad/sad/mad about that situation.” That is validating their feelings and is a true statement and is supportive.
Suggestions on Lovefraud
Even here on Lovefraud when we give “advice” about what we would do or what idea we think would work, it should be on our part, a suggestion if asked, or noted as our opinion. We all must make our own choices, our own decisions, and live with the consequences. Lovefraud is a supportive place, and the people here are very validating because they too have lived through the chaos with a psychopath in one way or another.
Sometimes we have bloggers come here for advice and we freely give it, and those bloggers do not take our advice, they make excuses for their dysfunctional relationship with a presumably dysfunctional or psychopathic person and stay with or go back to that person, or in some cases, go into another dysfunctional relationship. Of course we are disappointed that that was their choice, but it was their choice. We have not failed when they do not take our advice. It is not our fault that they did not get away from the danger.
We can still feel empathy for these people, but we should not feel that we are failures because our compassion and/or advice was ignored. We can only do what we can do.
Can’t save the unwilling
Back “before enlightenment” I used to feel really badly if my advice was refused or didn’t work, but I think I have turned a corner in my compassionate nature and in my desire to assist or help someone in their recovery from entanglement in dysfunctional relationships. I no longer feel that it is my responsibility to “save” someone if they are not willing to give it all they have got as well.
To use an analogy of swimming, my late husband was a very experienced swimmer and a lifeguard certification instructor. He had a situation once where he had a victim trapped inside a turned over helicopter in the water. Every time he would swim down to try to rescue the man, the man was hysterical and kept trying to pull him under with him. My husband quickly saw the situation and went back to the surface until there were no more bubbles coming out from the water. Then he went back to get the unconscious man and brought him to the surface. If my husband had tried to rescue the man while he was still consciously fighting him, they would have both died. By waiting until it was safe to do so, my husband saved them both.
When we are trying to “save” someone who is floundering in the flood waters of a miserable and dysfunctional relationship and they are asking for help, yet fighting that help at the same time, sometimes we can only wait until they are no longer fighting the help we offer them. We must firmly set a boundary that “I will not allow your problems to drag me under as well.”
My late husband wanted to rescue that man, but he was not willing to let the man pull him under as well, and he set a boundary. “Until you stop fighting me, I am not going to come back.” What would my husband have felt if after he did pull up the man and the man could not be revived and he was dead? I don’t know, of course, for sure, but my bet, knowing my husband, is that he would not have spent the rest of his life grieving for not having rescued that man in time. He would have said, I think, “I did the best I could, but I couldn’t let him pull me under and drown me as well.”
I have tried unsuccessfully to rescue my psychopathic offspring and my enabling maternal DNA donor, and for years let them pull me under the “water” until I nearly drowned in the process. Every time I would “fail” to rescue them because they fought me tooth and nail, I felt guilty, I felt inadequate, I felt that I had failed, and threw myself right back into the water of despair. Now, I realize I can’t rescue them against their wills, and I am no longer willing to risk my own life to try to do so. I can’t help them, and they won’t allow me to rescue them. I no longer feel disappointed, sad, grief-stricken or inadequate because of that. They have the choice to swim if they want to, and I have the choice not to risk my life in a futile attempt to save them from themselves. The best part of it all now is, though, that I no longer castigate myself for “failing” to rescue them. I no longer feel guilty or inadequate for their choices. I can let them be responsible for themselves and I am responsible for myself. That is freedom; that is peace. We can only do what we can do.
I’m having nightmares for the last 3 nights about my ex. We were only together for a year and a half but he was very persistent, moved in very fast overwhelmed me with affection and I fell in love with the illusion of who he was….I bought a house in his country Latvia and he moved back to start his own business and commence work on the house. I sent over significant amounts of money in 3 payments expecting work to be done….he just bullshitted me and fobbed me off till I went over and it dawned on me, no work was really happening and no account of where the money gad gone….as I asked him to account for the money he got angry and insulted that I didnt trust him….I broke up with him and then went out to retrieve documents etc….I turned up on his door and made him on front of neighbours and his family pack up my belongings and put them in a car id hired to drive out to him. I got a solicitor and she says its missapropriation of funds and a fairly clear cut case….but it would be very costly and take time…I dont want to spend any more time on him, so I asked him to pay me back a small amount (A loan for a second hand car) and then I would leave him alone….but I just know he wont pay it and I will have to go after him…I cant stand him and want nothing more to do with him…my nightmares are about chasing him, trying to catch him and I’m in a sweat and panick..this guy could not give a damn and his weapon is ignoring me, telling people I am crazy, not normal. He flirts with me, calls me love to confuse me and then withdraws….the bait for me is being loved, he knows this and uses it…its an act. He has a predatory stare, he can lie without blinking, he has no feelings and does not repond to anything he deems beneath him.
I am reading “Freeing Yourself from the NarcIssist in Your Life by Linda Martiznez-Lews, PhD. I’m loving it because it is about the “high level” narcissist (the guy I was involved with was a doc and a megamillionaire) and she does paint a picture of them as miserable behind their mask, and it rings true with things he said at times, about episodes of depression, of nothingness, of feeling empty.And his attempted suicide. I ALMOST feel sorry for him.
But I’m also loving it for her non-blaming of the victim. Here is a fair use quote from the book “Everyone wishes at one time or another to be rescued. We want someone else to take over for us, to love us unconditionally, to give us whatever we want. The wish to be adored is primary and irresistible. It reaches back into earliest childhood, when we were dependent on a mother’s love in order to survive. The narcissist, with his arresting charm and sheer force of personality, is capable of activating these deep wishes in others and using his desirability to exploit them.”
I think that is true for those of us who got involved with one who was actually high achieving, or pretended to be. They come on with the self-assurance that Steve Becker wrote about it. We mistake their tremendous self-assurance for character and integrity, when it is the opposite. In my case, I thought I knew who he was at his core, and ignored every red flag to the contrary. Let’s be honest. I ignored huge red billboards every fifty feet! And then once I was in it up to my eyeballs, I had the betrayal bond thing going on and what a painful mess it has been to extract myself.
I thought he was my one and only solution to the problems in my life. As it turns out, he was the nuclear bomb that somehow I survived, and miracle of miracles, everything is BETTER, oh so much better, than before the nuclear blast. But it almost killed me, it really almost did.
There are still days when it all drags me down. Yesterday was one of them. But this book has made me feel much better.
The book has pages and pages of explanation of why they are the way they are, and their telling traits. She uses real life examples to illustrate the points.
AT times I cringe and say…”ouch…I’ve done something like that”, reading about a narc trait, but then I read on and say “oh my god, no I haven’t!!” Like she explains the difference between anger (and I’ve done anger) and then RAGE…quite a difference.
It is scary, because much of what she says can lead to being a narc was present in my early life. Maybe that is why I can kind of get inside their head and feel like I know what they must go through. But I was saved. My therapist said as a child you can relate to the abuser or chose to be the victim. In this meaning, choosing to reject identification with abuser is a good thing. A victim can heal. A narc cannot.
And I think what saved me was Sunday school every single week telling me God loves me and that I was good, not bad. I’m not religious today, but I truly do think that saved me from becoming a narc like my brother did. He is a narcissiopath at best, as a matter of fact. So was my mom.
And ironically the man I was involved with saved me at 15/16 by being so abusive back then that the main trait I looked for in a man to marry was the anti-narc (without realizing I was doing that) and I accidentally married a mentally healthy person!!!
Here is some good news! We had our ‘adopted’ kids over for lunch yestarday,-here is the email, in full, which came this morning from Roya.{It was her 24th Birthday}.
“Hello, my dear Mum,How are you? How is dady? yesterday was a very nice day for us. My 24th Birthday was very beautiful, with you and dady. You gave me a very good memory. Everything was perfect. The very nice presents,delicious lunch, beautiful cake. All of them was thebest. I love you mama. I love you very much. You are very very kind, like an angel. Were so happy for havingyou and dady,and we will be your child forever, and we will do everything that we can for you and dady.Thank you very much for all your kindness. I dont know how I cansay thanks for them.I sent all the pictures that we took yesterday. They are so beautiful. Thanks again, mama. Im waiting for your email. Kiss you and dady. I love you! Take care. Your daughter, Roya.XX”Isnt God good to give me such a beautiful loving daughter. Of course I still love my girls, but its a sad love, not a glad love. I know youd want to share my happiness, Thanks to all of you, you are all AWESOME! your happy geminigirl{Hugs}.
Hi Evryone,
I hardly ever post here but I’ve been wanting to say THANK YOU, THATNK YOU and THANK YOU ALL!!!! for all your articles and posts which have been reading persistantly, helped keep me sane and validated my experience from finally breaking a 3 year confusing, abusive relationship with a Narciopath!
You do make a difference….but as we have all probably done at one time or another, we keep going back….even when the S is a high functioning, highly educated succsessfull, covert abuser that eveyone else sees as “such a nice guy”…and we question our reality.
I agree, it takes a tremendous ammount of self awareness, conditioning and perseverance to want to heal and we have to take responsibility for ourselves. When we help some one else and give advise we have to detach and just be patient, as we have to be with ourselves in the healing process.
The book I’m reading now…”The Betrayal Bond ” is really helping me the most in understanding this concept of why I keped gong back, why it’s so difficult breaking free, and understand why so many of us fall back into the pattern.
JustaboutHealed, I think I’m going to read the book you just recommended next.
Geminigirl….I’m so happy for you! enjoy the peace and love you are feeling right now! you deserv it!
Namastee
Dear Stayingsane,
I am so sorry you are going through all this, he sounds like a typical soul-less psychopathic user/abuser.
I think You have got him “pegged” —he is a user and abuser, and he will NOT pay you back—my advice is to cut your losses and run, get away as soon as you can, whtever “loss” you have had is over, no way to get it back by throwing good money after bad money (lost money) Whatever it takes to get him out of your house, I would recommend to do it, but don’t give him more money. If necessary, have police put him out.
My experience has been even if a court told you and him that he was responsible to repay you, he will not do it.
Good luck and God bless. (((hugs)))
tmassari 1
good to hear from you. Very much agree with your observation:
“The biggest and best lesson of everything that happened to me is to never ever become a victim – not only to others but to yourself. Help yourself above all, and the goodwill and beauty that grows within you will overflow and, by default, spread joy and peace. And when people see that peace, they will want it too.”
Great thread. Lot’s of wisdom and insights to ponder.
Dear OxDrover,
I think you are absolutely right in giving this advice to Stayingsane. Run away and diminish your losses. There is no point in trying to get justice done or hoping he will pay. We all have been through that and I think we know the outcome.
Stayingsane, it is hurtfull but that is what they are. We feel sorry for what you are going through but happy that you founf LF and we know you will get over it like we all are doing. Getting knowledge and understanding what happen to us and how to survive the madness. We have hope and we will heal. The Ss will never change and there is no hope for them. This blog has been a life saver and a great source of healing and inspiration to many of us. It has helped me tremendously. I ended up winning in the material sense but wished I never had to go through what I have been through. I still healing from the pain and have come a long way already. I hope with the knowledge we acquaire in here will help many who are still involved with the S on how to best manage their exit from a relationship with those types of alien creatures.. I am sure you will be alright. Keep posting and we will read about your progress.
Aeylah… thanks for mentioning how much the book is helping you, others have said that too, I have the book… I’m going to try to read it again, maybe I just don’t want to look at myself, I took the quiz at the beginnning of the book and then just felt it was too much work.
geminigirl… glad to hear you had a nice time yesterday! She wrote you such a sweet email!
Geminigirl, I only have a minute to respond after I read all the latest posts. I feel guilty that I am only choosing to take this snippet of time to reply to you. My thoughts and prayers are with the others, though.
Genimi, I couldn’t help but think of the example of Job in the Bible when even I first heard about your new Iranian “children.” You may have lost children but He, in His goodness, has replaced them. Or is it only one you lost and He gave you two more? Sorry. I’ve been reading too many posts and getting mixed up.
Roya wrote a beautiful and heartfelt email. My heart sings with yours reading it.
I haven’t mixed YOU up, though. I”ve identified with you and your grief from the first I heard your story.Sometimes, identified TOO much to even know what to say.
Out of time.
Dearest newLily, Oxy, and all of you brave courageous smart women out there,-NewLily, I lost 2 children, my younger daughter Claire, now 43, I havent seen since the 25th feb.,2003, when I took her out for a Birthday lunch. I have NEVER once been allowed by her to see her 3 kids, now aged 13, 10, and one year. David and I dont even know what we are supposed to have done wrong. Deborah, now 45, I havent been in contact with for 6 long weeks. Up to that time she managed to fleece me of almost A$10,000 ,she never ever calls me unless she wants something,{usually cash}.
The final crunch came when I discovered she had selected as “Facebook Friends, two awful, punk girls,heavy drinkers, druggies, who helped her to trash my home and destroy my art studio.{twice}. She lived with them for a while in a squat,
after shed run away from home.{She had her own nice flat under our house at the time!} My ex husband was doing very well, he is an alcoholic but had been ‘dry for almost ten years when deb, at 16, left school, and ran away from home.
It destroyed him, she ws the one hed hoped would go to University. he used to sit and cry. I know it wasnt fair, but deep down, I blamed her for his drinking again. From then on, I had 2 of them out most nights getting drunk,{when shed come home again}, and I was bashed up by both my ex and by Deb,{while she was on drugs}. So, really Ive lost both my adult kids. My boundaries to her, in a letter, were that she remove these former punks and re-instate me on facebook,{it was my only source of getting pictures of her kids}, and I also asked her for only ONE apology, to cover all the unspeakably awful things she has done to me, the worst being to ban me from her wedding to kev, but invite my ex and my present husband.{Who naturally didnt go!} Ive heard absolutely nothing from her, Im sure she thinks Ill weaken and call her, but I know I CANT and MUST NOT. for my sanity and bank balance! I just heard today by email from kevin,{her ex, but still not divorced after 3 years} that he now has the 3 kids full time, as she lost her job, {again} and cant afford the rent of $500 a week, so shes had to move out.Im relieved that kev now has the kids full time, he has a god job, a car, and is a far better parent to these lovely kids. He says they will stay with him till she gets herself “sorted out”. I feel for her, as she is running out of suckers to sting, but truly, this will be the time to make or break her.You would think that she would give in and apologise to me, who has been her greatest ally and support, but her huge pride will prevent this.God knows,{and Im sure he does} know what will become of her! My instincts are to ring her and offer help, but if she stayed with David and I I know shed probably split us up! So, I have to stand firm. The other ‘replaced” child, is Abbas, Royas 24 year old husband, 6 feet 2 of love and appreciation! Im getting plenty of loving hugs from them, in fact each time they leaveus, they cry! yesterdayAbbas said to me while hugging me,”Thank you, my dear Mum, for all you do for us! I love you so much!” I have NEVER had such love and hugs from my own kids, maybe when they were really little, but Deb has never been one for physical contact, very cool and reserved.So, I have to give both my adult kids to God, and I thank him so much for my wonderful new family. Love and hugs,geminigirlXX