By Ox Drover
I was thinking about a blog post and reply that had gone on between another poster and myself on Lovefraud about trying to “help” others see the “light” and get away from their own personal psychopath.
I mulled over what I had done in my life in trying to “fix” others by coming up with a solution that they could take to ease their pain from their prior bad choices. I would wrack my brain up and down, left and right, to try to come up with a “plan” that would help these people “fix” whatever mess they got into of their own free will.
Some people would call this “co-dependent” and others would call this “enabling.” Whatever term you want to apply to it, I called it “helping,” but the bottom line is that this behavior on my part was not “helping” these people, it was me trying to take responsibility for the consequences of their bad choices or bad behavior.
Many times these people would say “That’s a good idea, but ”¦” and would not take my very best suggestion that I was sure would work. So, as a consequence, I would get frustrated at them or angry with them for being so stubborn or stupid! (How arrogant of me!)
Other times, they would take part of my wonderful solution and it would not work because they didn’t use all of it, and then they would get mad at me for giving them such bad advice. It was all my fault because it didn’t work and they were still hurting.
The point is, that they got into the fix in the first place, and it is not my responsibility to get them out. I am not “helping” them by trying to take over running their life. I can, if they are willing, support them by saying “Boy, you must be feeling bad/sad/mad about that situation.” That is validating their feelings and is a true statement and is supportive.
Suggestions on Lovefraud
Even here on Lovefraud when we give “advice” about what we would do or what idea we think would work, it should be on our part, a suggestion if asked, or noted as our opinion. We all must make our own choices, our own decisions, and live with the consequences. Lovefraud is a supportive place, and the people here are very validating because they too have lived through the chaos with a psychopath in one way or another.
Sometimes we have bloggers come here for advice and we freely give it, and those bloggers do not take our advice, they make excuses for their dysfunctional relationship with a presumably dysfunctional or psychopathic person and stay with or go back to that person, or in some cases, go into another dysfunctional relationship. Of course we are disappointed that that was their choice, but it was their choice. We have not failed when they do not take our advice. It is not our fault that they did not get away from the danger.
We can still feel empathy for these people, but we should not feel that we are failures because our compassion and/or advice was ignored. We can only do what we can do.
Can’t save the unwilling
Back “before enlightenment” I used to feel really badly if my advice was refused or didn’t work, but I think I have turned a corner in my compassionate nature and in my desire to assist or help someone in their recovery from entanglement in dysfunctional relationships. I no longer feel that it is my responsibility to “save” someone if they are not willing to give it all they have got as well.
To use an analogy of swimming, my late husband was a very experienced swimmer and a lifeguard certification instructor. He had a situation once where he had a victim trapped inside a turned over helicopter in the water. Every time he would swim down to try to rescue the man, the man was hysterical and kept trying to pull him under with him. My husband quickly saw the situation and went back to the surface until there were no more bubbles coming out from the water. Then he went back to get the unconscious man and brought him to the surface. If my husband had tried to rescue the man while he was still consciously fighting him, they would have both died. By waiting until it was safe to do so, my husband saved them both.
When we are trying to “save” someone who is floundering in the flood waters of a miserable and dysfunctional relationship and they are asking for help, yet fighting that help at the same time, sometimes we can only wait until they are no longer fighting the help we offer them. We must firmly set a boundary that “I will not allow your problems to drag me under as well.”
My late husband wanted to rescue that man, but he was not willing to let the man pull him under as well, and he set a boundary. “Until you stop fighting me, I am not going to come back.” What would my husband have felt if after he did pull up the man and the man could not be revived and he was dead? I don’t know, of course, for sure, but my bet, knowing my husband, is that he would not have spent the rest of his life grieving for not having rescued that man in time. He would have said, I think, “I did the best I could, but I couldn’t let him pull me under and drown me as well.”
I have tried unsuccessfully to rescue my psychopathic offspring and my enabling maternal DNA donor, and for years let them pull me under the “water” until I nearly drowned in the process. Every time I would “fail” to rescue them because they fought me tooth and nail, I felt guilty, I felt inadequate, I felt that I had failed, and threw myself right back into the water of despair. Now, I realize I can’t rescue them against their wills, and I am no longer willing to risk my own life to try to do so. I can’t help them, and they won’t allow me to rescue them. I no longer feel disappointed, sad, grief-stricken or inadequate because of that. They have the choice to swim if they want to, and I have the choice not to risk my life in a futile attempt to save them from themselves. The best part of it all now is, though, that I no longer castigate myself for “failing” to rescue them. I no longer feel guilty or inadequate for their choices. I can let them be responsible for themselves and I am responsible for myself. That is freedom; that is peace. We can only do what we can do.
Dear Geminigirl,
My dear son D is the son that God gave me to replace my P-offspring. He has been with us for 12 years now, and was the son of my husband’s “old age” a wonderful addition to our family. Watching him “bloom” was the joy of my husband’s last years and we used to sit in the evening and smile and talk about how D was “blossoming” as he matured. It truly was a gift from God that he came into our lives. He was the only family member who stood firmly with me through all the chaos and pain, the only one who always believed me. He and my oldest son C are truly brothers, and my P-offspring is so jealous of our love for D and D’s love for us that it makes him BLIND with rage! At the same time, he is also jealous of his biiological brother, C…he is jealous of anyone whom we have a relationship with. Plus, Godforbid that they might be in our will! ha ha
P-son feels he is ENTITLED to everything we have, and is willing to kill us to get it! Of course he is not the only person in the world who feels ENTITLED to a bequest, and my own personal feeling is that a bequest is a gift, not a RIGHT to anyone. No one owes me a bequest, and I do not owe them one, regardless of blood ties.
GIFTS are NOT EARNED or required, but freely given, without any “pay back” required except thanks and appreciation.
PAY is money for work done (or to be done) and NO THANKS are required, it is money earned.
When no thanks are given for GIFTS, or appreciation shown or expressed sincerely, then the giver is NOT required to give further gifts, and that includes being “in the will.” Neither is the giver given the right to be “upset” or angry with the recipient for not thanking them, except to note a lack of apparent gratitude or appreciation and with hold FURTHER gifts. NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO GIFTS.
My egg donor was one for “gifts with strings attached”—in other words, a “gift” BOUGHT CONTROL. If no control was dispensed, she became angry. I learned not to accept her offered “gifts” because I would not allow her control. She was actually angry that I did not accept her “gifts” because she knew she could not then expect to control me in return.
Of course her offered ‘gifts” were really her offer to PAY me for control. Since I did not want her control, I did not accept her PAY which she tried to call “gifts.”
Your daughters’ feelings of ENTITLEMENT to treat you with contempt and then expect you to GIVE them money (or whatever) is obviously from disordered thinking. You are under no obligation to give “gifts” to anyone you do not WANT to.
I do not WANT to give gifts to people who treat me poorly. I do not want to accept false “gifts” that are really pay for control in a slightly disguised form.
Spend your time with the people who love you, your David and your “adopted” children—give the GIFTS of your love, time and concern to those people, and withhold your time and attention to those that treat you poorly! God has truly been good to you by blessing you with people in your life who do love you, even though they may not be your blood relations.
Gemini, Now I remember more of your story! Yes, my heart has bled for you — as I said, I hurt so bad for you that I couldn’t even respond to you at first.
I realize now from your gratitude for me finally responding that I was wrong. I should have been able to put you before myself. Sorry. ——Whoa. Oxy’s words to take care of ourselves FIRST just flitted across my mind. I didn’t respond to you at first because I wasn’t strong enough to do it yet. I have a feeling you understand.
Oxy, I have rejoiced with you that you had D’s full support when you were going through the worst of it. Our family were not gift givers, except at Christmas, so it is hard for me to understand. Well, I do understand that some people use gifts to CONTROL. God grief, as I think about it, that is the tie that EX had with our son for years — but it was money put out for his rent and for car purchases, etc. for years. I didn’t think of those things as gifts, I guess. Ex did not do the same for the girls but once they were married, their husbands (good men) they didn’t need it, I guess. None of the 3 girls were ever materialistic — except the oldest one for the latest fashions — so I can’t really identify with Gemini either about being soaked out of her funds by her daughter. I applaud your resolve, Oxy.
correction and addition — Good Grief, not God grief! and the addition that EX had complete control over our son with his enabling in every way, especially with money for expenses son was ABLE to pay for himself.
My good news today is that the “Plan” God gave me last Friday was put into action this afternoon. The most joyous news is that I got Daughter #2 firmly back!! And she is safe! She will be out of state for a week which will “help” the most. I have hopes for son to call me tomorrow night (he was out of town today) and renewed hope, but not entirely, that oldest daugher will contact me once she gets back from their out of the country trip. Of course, third daughter had returned over a year ago — and I’m still stinging from my own foolish “paranoia” about her not calling. Her reasons were entirely VALID. I didn’t talk to her today because her shifts at the hospital were hefty all wek. She’ll call tomorrow night, no doubt.
Here I am sandwiching my good news in bettween other stuff but I have been meaning to mention that having “adopted” children that add richness to our lives is shared by me, too.
I have two former foster daughters who contact me regularly (by email) and an “adopted” son who now lives in Egypt but writes even more regularly (be email)
I count them as blessings but these past few years I have also felt grief that my “adopted” children seem to show more concern for me than my own. (And my weekly prayer partner from “home” told me last Mother’s Day that she has adopted ME as her mother! Joy!)
BUT, I predict that after today the years of “keeping the faith” will bring new joys. I wish the same for you, also.
Wish I could tell you more details about the “miracle” God provided but I can’t on a public board.
I hope I’ve made sense. It’s been 3 days of intense emotions. I am eager to get back to my quiet life that I had become accustomed to, living alone as I do.
Meant to add that I am SO happy for you, Gemini, that your adopted children are able to visit you in person. And, I think I have already told Oxy how happy I am for her that D was close by — and that now even Son C is nearby and safe.
There is another gal whose only daughter lives across the continent from her. She knows the loneliness of not having personal contact so I’m not “alone.”
Thank you So much, NewLily and Oxy, for your loving, and encouraging words! God today reminded ome of a medieval poem,{written for the lute}, about the time of Shakespeare. God told me to tell you this is how he sees YOU!
here is the poem,[I learned it at school}
“Have you seen but a white Lily grow, before rude hands had touched it?
have you marked but the fall of the snow,before the earth has smutched it?
have you felt of the wool of beaver, or swansdown ,ever?
Or have smelled of the bud of the briar,{rose},or the nard {resin} in the fire?
Or have tasted the bag of the bee?
Oh so white, Oh so soft, Oh so sweet, so sweet, so sweet is she!” This is how God sees you, Lily, a brand new Lily! Love and Hugs to you and Oxy too, geminigirlXXX
This article comes at just the right time for me. I’ve been trying so far unsuccessfully to get one of my children to institute No Contact with the classic case she’s been seeing for the last 8-10 months. She can’t seem to do it. I must back away and let her learn her own lessons, as painful as I know they will be.
And someone or something killed my dogs last week, making it even more difficult to keep my chin up. (When I first bought this property, the man who sold it warned me about one particular family. Called them dog-killers. I suspect this is just part of this neighbor’s ongoing campaign against anyone who lives here. He disputes the property line and is notorious for underhanded and criminal behavior.) Tilly, I sure know what you mean when you say there are so many of them, and they are everywhere.
I can only do what I can do. No more. I’ll repeat as necessary. Thanks to all for being here.
Tood
Someone or something killed your dogs? “dog killers”? this makes me very angry and I would take immediate action…anything before depression levels you and these bastards get away with it. Maybe I’m naive but that is murder. That is not materials, that is flesh and blood…..
Ox-drover
Thanks so much, maybe I should let him just go? not pay me back? accept it? I dont understand how any closure can be reached if I dont at least get something in my direction? that means he has won…he dusts himself off and waits for the next mug to rip off..I am already obsessed with getting even to an unhealthy degree…it is like he forcing me into his lifeless world where winning is paramount….and I want to hurt him back. I feel so helpless…if ‘m not plotting his downfall am i turning crazy, is this a normal phase?
Brilhancy
My goal is to exit this relationship to this alien, and I hear you when you say even if the courts order him to pay…he wont and that just keeps me strung along and has access to further torment me….its beyond the courts then…something must frighten them…what frightens a psychopath?
Dear Tood,
I am so sorry that you lost your dogs, but sometimes people in the country (where dogs may legally run loose at least in my area) resent dogs coming on to their property, and are legally able to kill them if they swear the dogs are chasing live stock.
Frankly I have killed dogs on my place that did chase and KILL livestock, AND I also made the owner pay for the damaged/killed livestock. It wasn’t the dog’s fault, but owners who had been WARNED by me multiple times that their dogs were chasing stock and refused to keep them up. They will “pack up” and chase and kill or inijure stock because that is their instinct to “hunt” coming out. It is a People problem not a dog problem, though.
I do not allow my dogs to run loose because I do not want them to be a pain in the neck to neighbots, tear inito trash etc. I no longer have a guardian dog (Great white Pyreness) but she, by instinct, did not ever leave her territory and knew where the property lines were. She was shot in her OWN YARD about two years ago for “sport”—couldn’t prove who did it, but I knew. I share your pain at losing your pets, though.
Stayingsane,
I know it is difficult to just “let them get by with it” but 99.9% of the time, in the end they win anyway, because you fight it with legal and moral grounds, and they refuse to pay and people end up putting more energy and time and worry into trying to out wit them to get th emoney and the thing is, they ENJOY THE FIGHT and in the end, most of the time, NEVER PAY THE MONEY BACK ANYWAY. I am not the only one here who can testify that the financial fight against them is generally futile.
Learning to SUCK UP the losses is also painful, but accepting what IS is the only way I have found to get “closure.” You may have to try to get your money back in order to see my point of view, but it is YOUR money, YOUR choice and YOUR healing….each case is somewhat different, and each of us is somewhat different, so if you feel you must fight him for the money, I hope you are the exception and can get it, but if you don’t, just be aware that you have NOT “failed”—–You are STILL THE WINNER, because you have HIM OUT OF YOUR LIFE!!! Whatever the “tuition” in the University of Hard Knocks, it was worth it to get him out of your life! (((hugs)))))
Betty,
The emotional pain, the stress you are enduring, is palpable in your post. I would dearly love to be there in person for you, holding your hand, just to listen and care.
But since I can’t be there in person I’m here on LF. I can relate to needing to live with someone for a time to recoup and collect yourself. I lived with an N male for 3 months when I moved to Idaho from Texas. It was awful and he also lived with his parents, a 41 year old guy, who were just as selfish, self absorbed as he was. Wonder where he got it, huh?
True, I was unaware of what he was in the beginning as first he deceived me with sweet words that seemed sincere. The longer I stayed in his home the worse he became. He didn’t frighten me, hardly (other way around) but he was one of the most immature, selfish persons I had ever had the displeasure of meeting and actually caring for in my life.
My care and attraction for him diminished fairly quickly when the real dude beneath revealed himself. He was stingy with food, for goodness sakes! How stupid is that? I paid for every scrap I ate never asked him for a dime and willingly shared my food with him and his lodger. Retarded behavior, the stinginess with food. Of course, he was stingy with everything, not only food.
Anyway, not meaning to bore you, doll, just sharing my situation with you of living with awful, uncaring people. I blew up at him a few times, trying to express to him how his behavior is cruel, unsavory and he would just sit there, all eyes and silence, then run to his parents (eye roll) and tell them how horrible I am. So ridiculous.
When he started putting pressure on me to move out, him realizing I’m not this adoring, myopic, submissive, docile, bubble headed barbie doll that he desired, I quickly found a job AND a place to live within a week. My Mom helped with money and I was so grateful and slightly humiliated to ask, but being the kind and generous woman that she is, she just said…”get the hell away from that creep, fast!”
I did and never regretted it. The “creep” called me 2 weeks later after I moved, behaving in the classic P/N/S way, acting as if nothing happened, and even though I was just starting to educate myself about Narcissists I told him that if he fell off the face of the Earth I wouldn’t give a flying flip. That he was an ugly man, inside and out and I didn’t want to ever communicate with him again. He sputtered some crap about me not being able to insult very well then hung up. Which meant, he was now well aware that I loathed him and wanted him gone from my life forever.
Now my mentality on the idea of living with anyone is I would rather live under a tree and eat leaves rather than be subjected to one iota of abuse from a cruel humanoid. I would, I mean it. I would rather be homeless than accept the suspicious “kindness” from any damn individual.
My peace, my serenity, my sanity, my dignity, my self respect is worth so much more to me than to allow one more person to inflict any type of abuse onto me.
Betty, don’t give up trying to find a job. Heck, do any type of work just to save up money so you can move out of that house as quickly as possible. Once you find a humble abode for yourself, you can always find an employment position more suitable to your intellect, education and experience.
Best wishes…
The post to Lovely Betty should be in the “Catch and Release” thread not this one.
Hope she sees it and wholeheartedly knows we care for her and her healing and recovery.
xxooxxoo…