By Ox Drover
I was thinking about a blog post and reply that had gone on between another poster and myself on Lovefraud about trying to “help” others see the “light” and get away from their own personal psychopath.
I mulled over what I had done in my life in trying to “fix” others by coming up with a solution that they could take to ease their pain from their prior bad choices. I would wrack my brain up and down, left and right, to try to come up with a “plan” that would help these people “fix” whatever mess they got into of their own free will.
Some people would call this “co-dependent” and others would call this “enabling.” Whatever term you want to apply to it, I called it “helping,” but the bottom line is that this behavior on my part was not “helping” these people, it was me trying to take responsibility for the consequences of their bad choices or bad behavior.
Many times these people would say “That’s a good idea, but ”¦” and would not take my very best suggestion that I was sure would work. So, as a consequence, I would get frustrated at them or angry with them for being so stubborn or stupid! (How arrogant of me!)
Other times, they would take part of my wonderful solution and it would not work because they didn’t use all of it, and then they would get mad at me for giving them such bad advice. It was all my fault because it didn’t work and they were still hurting.
The point is, that they got into the fix in the first place, and it is not my responsibility to get them out. I am not “helping” them by trying to take over running their life. I can, if they are willing, support them by saying “Boy, you must be feeling bad/sad/mad about that situation.” That is validating their feelings and is a true statement and is supportive.
Suggestions on Lovefraud
Even here on Lovefraud when we give “advice” about what we would do or what idea we think would work, it should be on our part, a suggestion if asked, or noted as our opinion. We all must make our own choices, our own decisions, and live with the consequences. Lovefraud is a supportive place, and the people here are very validating because they too have lived through the chaos with a psychopath in one way or another.
Sometimes we have bloggers come here for advice and we freely give it, and those bloggers do not take our advice, they make excuses for their dysfunctional relationship with a presumably dysfunctional or psychopathic person and stay with or go back to that person, or in some cases, go into another dysfunctional relationship. Of course we are disappointed that that was their choice, but it was their choice. We have not failed when they do not take our advice. It is not our fault that they did not get away from the danger.
We can still feel empathy for these people, but we should not feel that we are failures because our compassion and/or advice was ignored. We can only do what we can do.
Can’t save the unwilling
Back “before enlightenment” I used to feel really badly if my advice was refused or didn’t work, but I think I have turned a corner in my compassionate nature and in my desire to assist or help someone in their recovery from entanglement in dysfunctional relationships. I no longer feel that it is my responsibility to “save” someone if they are not willing to give it all they have got as well.
To use an analogy of swimming, my late husband was a very experienced swimmer and a lifeguard certification instructor. He had a situation once where he had a victim trapped inside a turned over helicopter in the water. Every time he would swim down to try to rescue the man, the man was hysterical and kept trying to pull him under with him. My husband quickly saw the situation and went back to the surface until there were no more bubbles coming out from the water. Then he went back to get the unconscious man and brought him to the surface. If my husband had tried to rescue the man while he was still consciously fighting him, they would have both died. By waiting until it was safe to do so, my husband saved them both.
When we are trying to “save” someone who is floundering in the flood waters of a miserable and dysfunctional relationship and they are asking for help, yet fighting that help at the same time, sometimes we can only wait until they are no longer fighting the help we offer them. We must firmly set a boundary that “I will not allow your problems to drag me under as well.”
My late husband wanted to rescue that man, but he was not willing to let the man pull him under as well, and he set a boundary. “Until you stop fighting me, I am not going to come back.” What would my husband have felt if after he did pull up the man and the man could not be revived and he was dead? I don’t know, of course, for sure, but my bet, knowing my husband, is that he would not have spent the rest of his life grieving for not having rescued that man in time. He would have said, I think, “I did the best I could, but I couldn’t let him pull me under and drown me as well.”
I have tried unsuccessfully to rescue my psychopathic offspring and my enabling maternal DNA donor, and for years let them pull me under the “water” until I nearly drowned in the process. Every time I would “fail” to rescue them because they fought me tooth and nail, I felt guilty, I felt inadequate, I felt that I had failed, and threw myself right back into the water of despair. Now, I realize I can’t rescue them against their wills, and I am no longer willing to risk my own life to try to do so. I can’t help them, and they won’t allow me to rescue them. I no longer feel disappointed, sad, grief-stricken or inadequate because of that. They have the choice to swim if they want to, and I have the choice not to risk my life in a futile attempt to save them from themselves. The best part of it all now is, though, that I no longer castigate myself for “failing” to rescue them. I no longer feel guilty or inadequate for their choices. I can let them be responsible for themselves and I am responsible for myself. That is freedom; that is peace. We can only do what we can do.
Stayingsane,
Welcome to the blog. First off, as with any new person I am sorry you, or any of us, had to go through this kind of betrayal. But, I am glad you found your way here. This place is a virtual goldmine of love, understanding, and integrity.
Many of the people here have lost LOTS of money and resources. Really, some of the losses reported here are staggering. And, though the physical losses are astounding, it is the emotional/spiritual losses that I find myself most saddened by. The sheer devastation of the human spirit witnessed here. This is not caused by loss of money or resources. The loss of belief, of hope, of self; these losses are caused by the abuse of love, of the heart.
I myself lost upwards of 25,000.00 and a car. Forfeited, actually. Because trying to recoup the losses, though they were ‘owed’ me, meant more contact, pain, insult, betrayal, and injury. They meant more insult to my HEART, my soul, my very core. And to me, these were far more important to protect.
Not that you asked, but I urge you to be sure what you are fighting for is worth the price you may have to pay.
Some of us are ‘up’ for the battle, and have the armor in place to keep the ourselves from being further drained. Some have no choice, like when we are fighting for our children (and we get the best lawyers we can afford!). Some of us know we cannot do battle without losing more of ourselves. I was one of the latter.
You’ll have to know where you fit into the equation. Just remember your heart, and protect yourself. Sometimes money is just paper.
Glad you are here. Slimone
Dear JaneSmith,
Gotcha! Thank you so much, Dear One. Thanks a million!
BIGhugs!
Betty
Stayingsane:
Hello there and sorry we meet under such sucky circumstances!
I am a fighter type. What my situation boiled down to, for me, was…..the S wouldn’t be happy even if I gave him everything, mind/body/soul/kids/money etc…..
So that known…..and my anger, frustration, betrayal by family acting as proxy and my dignity….
I decided to expose, document, PI, and get what I could….period. I knew it would be nothing but ugly with him anyways, so I decided to be the one in control of my path!
I NAILED HIS ASS! GOOD! I was successful at getting every ‘material’ possesion we had…..oh, except the golf clubs….no biggie, I don’t golf! That was my only concession.
You played me like a fool…..and I called on my inner sociopath and fought fire with fire.
It took an enormous amount of energy and work…..but satisfying as hell for me!
I don’t know if it’s for everyone, but i do believe we are all capable of the fight. Like slimone stated…..its situational.
I will tell you, your processing through your dreams….pay attention to them. As disturbing as they are at the time…..write them down, and reflect on them.
Also, it may be worth your while to investigate the laws and file a case on your own. DO not let the legal system intimidate you either!!!
IF we can’t afford the process…..do it yourself…..take out that burden! He will be represented and HE will incure the expense…..this will make him more apt to settle. I never saw it as I had somehting to lose….only to gain. It’s not optimal to represent ourself, but it is doable! (BTW, I did have council).
If you have the balls, and decide it’s worth the process….I am of the mindset of GO FOR IT!
Do you know how many people told me…..EB….Leave it alone…..It’s not worth it! Oh, not a chance! And I HAVE NO REGRETS!!!!! NONE….I vindicated myself, I freed my kids and I made him ‘go away’.
He has been silent lately, so this tells me he is up to something, so I am preparing for his next attack…..this is the nature of my S!
I know his patterns/behaviors/warnings and heads ups…..and I use my ‘inner sociopath’ to nail him. He taught me well….and I am aware of how to balance “ME” with who I need to be at the time.
So…….If you can’t find peace and you find it’s worth your while….I say….. can the farker!
That’s just moi.
Keep us posted, and NEVER QUESTION YOURSELF!!!!!!!!
Stayingsane,
“My goal is to exit this relationship to this alien, and I hear you when you say even if the courts order him to pay”he wont and that just keeps me strung along and has access to further torment me”.its beyond the courts then”something must frighten them”what frightens a psychopath? ”
Oh Gosh! this is a difficult question. I can only respond based on my own experience. Every experience is different and the circumstances are also different. But in my case, after years of trying everything and every possible way, I could not free myself from him and I was working to give money to him. We always hope they will get better and change, but they never will.
In my case the only solution I found was to become a sociopath worse them him without him know. I had to pretend not to be angry and not to confront him. (OUR ANGER JUST GIVES THEM POWER AND THEY GET A LOT OF SATISFACTION). I went along with his plans being agreable and cooperating with him for him to achieve his adventure (another affair but I pretended I believed in his estory that he was going to a very dangerous adventure). Being so understanding and not challenging him I managed to have the assests separated the way I wanted (25% for him and 85% for me with the seal and approval from the Family Court, I managed to have an Enduring Power of Attorney from him and with that I withdrew all his retirement funds. And the beauty of it, is that he now knows I know everything he went overseas for and that I gave him the biggets betrayal of his life…I betrayed him instead of him betrayal me, as he was initialling intending.
You will have to think how you can do something similar in your case. This is the only way to win from them.. You have to have a plot in place to safe yourself. Everything you do has to be well planned , but never ever let him know or feel that you are up to something. You will have to be cold as ice but pretend to be worm towards him. This is the hardest thing to do and I believe it is not many people who can do this. I was so desperate that my only survival was to become this person.. but after I free myself from him I allowed myself to break down. I allowed myself to release all the pain that I was keeping inside…
Become his friend is the best way to start..and as this is in place you start preparing yourself ..
I wish I had a much simpler solution for you. One thing I found out. the Ss are not very intelligent..once you know this you can succeed..
ErinBrockovitch
You are speaking my language! I am so cheered up by your attitude, even if a little alarmed at enjoyment you are getting out of waiting on the next move…But I think you are FANTASTIC for deciding to be in control of your own path…I cannot tell you how delighted I am that you NAILED HIS ASS GOOD! I needed so badly to hear it was possible to do it…you did it! Good for you getting every material possession back and for having the guts to put the amount of work in to satisfy your soul…It is time to stand up to the intimidation and out stare, outsmart, outwit…these creeps! using your “inner Sociopath” is GENIUS because firstly you admit you can be worse than him to get him…I’m feeling a bit grubby for wanting to go after him because there is no doubt you are in the water with the shark, the only thing a predator shark wont attack is a fellow predator and thats what I’m cultivating in myself at the moment…
then I have moments where I’m thinking, hang on i need time to recover, meet new men, start dating again….not turning into Charles Bronson…but maybe i can do both? I am running on instinct now…every day since I came back I am checking my account to see if he has paid back any money…(duh…nothin there!) and then fine tuning elements and re thinking and double guessing and beginning to play him by staying close…very close..I ‘m ringing his sister today…to directly tell her to encourage her brother to pay me back or else…then I will be contacting his previous ex whom he left with money problems and he just vanished to Ireland to get away from her leaving her with terrible financial struggle culminating in her selling the house, instead of getting money sent over from him to keep the house…he just fled the scene and he was telling me she was a crazy person….wait till all us women band together…Telling people is a good way to stay protected..as long as I don’t give them any reason to think I’m hysterical and crazy (which of course I am…its what they do )
Update on Biddy…yes…we can only do what we can do!
You are in love with the person he wants you to believe he is. He knows what is important to you so he’s representing himself as being that kind of person. When you see the man that he really is underneath all his superficial fake actions that he’s learned from others and off tv and Lord only knows where else…trust me…he will not be someone that you even desire to be in the same room with. And, no, they do not heal as they get older. They just don’t have the stamina to do what they do as often. And, the certainly don’t suddenly grow a conscience or the ability to love another person for anything more than what that person can do to feed their own egos. And, it doesn’t matter whether you were committed or not…I still remember the tearful email that you sent me when he hurt you when you found out what he had been doing. Would you like for me to send you a copy of it?
—————– Original Message —————–
From: Biddy
To: T
Date: Aug 5, 2009 9:04 AM
Subject: RE: These came overnight
I know the risk with him and none of us can say if he is going to change or NOT. I am giving him a chance to prove himself. I love him no matter what and will always try to be there for him. I am a friend to him and will never turn my back on him whether we are in a relationship or not. I think what he and I went through is somewhat different as to what you two went through. I gave him no commitment and was doing my own thing so he did his. God will repay him, the other woman, Me, you and the other women he was running with in some way or another for what we have done as bad people. I have no doubt about that. I have talked to professionals too that have said that they didn’t find him to be a sociopath but did find him to have a lot of security issues. I was also told even if it was sociopathic ways that he could and probably would change because most usually do in the late 30’s, early to mid 40’s. I think he is well capable of having feelings including guilt. He don’t beg for my forgiveness he just says he hopes I can forgive him someday and he knows it will take time. He has even came out and told his boss and his wife what happened. His co-worker said he told him that he had married me and told him no more putas (whores). He said he told him good, good. I was worried, you don’t need those putas you were hanging out with, he said they were no good for him. I think he has came a long way and is excepting responsibility for his actions. If he changes it will be for himself and no one else.
Brilhancy
The Ss are not very intelligent….once you know this you can succeed….I think this is why I am feeling energised, he actually is a bit dumber than I thought, and of course having no feelings must be an incredibly dull dark place…and so I feel sad again. Isnt it so sad that people get so cut off from their core emotions.I have this stubborn woman thing that if he gets the right love, enough love he would begin to feel again, but that’s where his mask slipped…he was showing signs of disgust at anything emotional and equating emotional with stupid….deserving of no respect.. thanks for your story…I’m feeling a different side of things now and thats yeah you took him to the cleaners, nailed him, got him good but so what ? he wasn’t that intelligent after all and it was even easy to get him…cold as ice…plot in place…you betrayed him…y’know and its not like he can turn around and say “i’m sorry” The guys a sociopath so….
Oh goodness, I feared that I had just posted the above comment before editing out the REAL names of people. By the way, that is an email exchange between Biddy and me. The first part is my response to her message which follows!
oh God…feeling very sick….just rang my ex’s sister…and she told me she couldn’t care what happened her brother, because he is a bastard…that she was on my side and someone should stop him, he couldn’t give a shit, always was like that and always will be..He used to beat her up, and she had a miscarriage when kicked in the stomach by him…he tried to marry another woman in May!!!! whom he knew for 2 months…she has a great job and a nice apartment so he wanted to cash in on that!..she didnt go through with it..so much horrible information on him….all evidence of everything….she also said he gets a thrill out of how upset women get…he will never pay me back.. and she would love to see him in jail…**!!???**!!!
Stayingsane
I am so sorry to know that you are in this. Nothing of what your ex-sister told is new to any of us who have been the victms of this type of creature. No one can get them and they will keep repeating their abuses over and over and over on new victms. Try to keep your emotions under control> Aren’t you glad you found out on the early stages of your relationship? Aren’t you glad to know that he will not fool you anymore?. If you have to loose the finances be it, but you are a great winner freeing yourself from this horrible person.
My ex S has done similar things and his sisters and mothers were covering for him at the beggining until he drop them as well and stole money from them. They never stop and it is very hard to get them.. My ex S stole money and jewellery from his own teenager daugther
Now you can understand a lot more why I had to become a cold , premeditaded and calous sociopath to get free from my S. I really feel for you but I am glad you found out on time before you had to loose a lot more. Be brave and strong and use the sthrengh of your knowledge about sociopaths to help your recovering. We will be here for you to support you and to hear you. Pat you back that he showed himself to you just now and not 20 years down the track when we have 2, 3 children who are also victms of their own father.. Be brave .