By Ox Drover
I was thinking about a blog post and reply that had gone on between another poster and myself on Lovefraud about trying to “help” others see the “light” and get away from their own personal psychopath.
I mulled over what I had done in my life in trying to “fix” others by coming up with a solution that they could take to ease their pain from their prior bad choices. I would wrack my brain up and down, left and right, to try to come up with a “plan” that would help these people “fix” whatever mess they got into of their own free will.
Some people would call this “co-dependent” and others would call this “enabling.” Whatever term you want to apply to it, I called it “helping,” but the bottom line is that this behavior on my part was not “helping” these people, it was me trying to take responsibility for the consequences of their bad choices or bad behavior.
Many times these people would say “That’s a good idea, but ”¦” and would not take my very best suggestion that I was sure would work. So, as a consequence, I would get frustrated at them or angry with them for being so stubborn or stupid! (How arrogant of me!)
Other times, they would take part of my wonderful solution and it would not work because they didn’t use all of it, and then they would get mad at me for giving them such bad advice. It was all my fault because it didn’t work and they were still hurting.
The point is, that they got into the fix in the first place, and it is not my responsibility to get them out. I am not “helping” them by trying to take over running their life. I can, if they are willing, support them by saying “Boy, you must be feeling bad/sad/mad about that situation.” That is validating their feelings and is a true statement and is supportive.
Suggestions on Lovefraud
Even here on Lovefraud when we give “advice” about what we would do or what idea we think would work, it should be on our part, a suggestion if asked, or noted as our opinion. We all must make our own choices, our own decisions, and live with the consequences. Lovefraud is a supportive place, and the people here are very validating because they too have lived through the chaos with a psychopath in one way or another.
Sometimes we have bloggers come here for advice and we freely give it, and those bloggers do not take our advice, they make excuses for their dysfunctional relationship with a presumably dysfunctional or psychopathic person and stay with or go back to that person, or in some cases, go into another dysfunctional relationship. Of course we are disappointed that that was their choice, but it was their choice. We have not failed when they do not take our advice. It is not our fault that they did not get away from the danger.
We can still feel empathy for these people, but we should not feel that we are failures because our compassion and/or advice was ignored. We can only do what we can do.
Can’t save the unwilling
Back “before enlightenment” I used to feel really badly if my advice was refused or didn’t work, but I think I have turned a corner in my compassionate nature and in my desire to assist or help someone in their recovery from entanglement in dysfunctional relationships. I no longer feel that it is my responsibility to “save” someone if they are not willing to give it all they have got as well.
To use an analogy of swimming, my late husband was a very experienced swimmer and a lifeguard certification instructor. He had a situation once where he had a victim trapped inside a turned over helicopter in the water. Every time he would swim down to try to rescue the man, the man was hysterical and kept trying to pull him under with him. My husband quickly saw the situation and went back to the surface until there were no more bubbles coming out from the water. Then he went back to get the unconscious man and brought him to the surface. If my husband had tried to rescue the man while he was still consciously fighting him, they would have both died. By waiting until it was safe to do so, my husband saved them both.
When we are trying to “save” someone who is floundering in the flood waters of a miserable and dysfunctional relationship and they are asking for help, yet fighting that help at the same time, sometimes we can only wait until they are no longer fighting the help we offer them. We must firmly set a boundary that “I will not allow your problems to drag me under as well.”
My late husband wanted to rescue that man, but he was not willing to let the man pull him under as well, and he set a boundary. “Until you stop fighting me, I am not going to come back.” What would my husband have felt if after he did pull up the man and the man could not be revived and he was dead? I don’t know, of course, for sure, but my bet, knowing my husband, is that he would not have spent the rest of his life grieving for not having rescued that man in time. He would have said, I think, “I did the best I could, but I couldn’t let him pull me under and drown me as well.”
I have tried unsuccessfully to rescue my psychopathic offspring and my enabling maternal DNA donor, and for years let them pull me under the “water” until I nearly drowned in the process. Every time I would “fail” to rescue them because they fought me tooth and nail, I felt guilty, I felt inadequate, I felt that I had failed, and threw myself right back into the water of despair. Now, I realize I can’t rescue them against their wills, and I am no longer willing to risk my own life to try to do so. I can’t help them, and they won’t allow me to rescue them. I no longer feel disappointed, sad, grief-stricken or inadequate because of that. They have the choice to swim if they want to, and I have the choice not to risk my life in a futile attempt to save them from themselves. The best part of it all now is, though, that I no longer castigate myself for “failing” to rescue them. I no longer feel guilty or inadequate for their choices. I can let them be responsible for themselves and I am responsible for myself. That is freedom; that is peace. We can only do what we can do.
Brilhancy/Stayingsane…..
HERE HERE Ladies…..I was in for 28 years!
I will tell you……there are lot’s of ‘rules’ to follow in ‘taking them down’. I agree…..not everyone is up to it, and if your not absolutely 100% right on with your moves……it could be devastating.
It’s a personal decision only you can make!
So….that said…
RULE #1…..NEVER GET COCKY!
Never discuss your plans or real thoughts of him with anyone that ever was or is ‘close’ with him……
You may think you can trust someone…..until they expose your plan…..then it’s all over…..REMEMBER…..LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS!!!!!
Never react immediately…..this one is a good lesson for the long haul in life itself. But in the meantime, practice on the S. There will be many a time you want to react about something immediately…..it’s about self control, and being stealth….Keep your eye on the bigger picture……..go for the winning of the WAR…..not each and every battle…..if you expect anything, you will always be dissappointed. Toss any expectation to the universe.
I had a friend call today, pissed off about a situation in her divorce……she was telling me all the calls she was going to make today with her demands…… I let her talk, because it was safe to do so with me……then I said…..STOP…..you can never make a decision when you are angry….pull back, no one is going to die today, let it all settle in and you may feel differently over the weekend……sure as shit, she called tonight with another, way more rational plan. My advice was still to let it settle over the weekend.
If we react to each and every pinch……we are giving them what they want and we are the reactionary ones……it’s a test….PASS IT!
There are just so many issues to take into consideration.
For me it was worth it…..each step.
I look back at my willingness to be aware, split myself into however many ‘parts’ I needed to, to be able to ‘see’ what was going on around me…….then make my decisions, all carefully, under the radar.
I remember one time…..Oh, and this was the hardest, but in some sick way rewarding…….I came to the conclusion when he kidnapped one of our children……that, after 2 months had passed, I was going to need to change my strategy here to allow him to ‘revert’ on the lies he told our child…..so I did! I did this because I felt it was ‘life or death’ with this child…he was romantisizing thoughts of suicide and cut me off due to the lies his father had told him. I was completely disconnected from my son, when his father concocted the story that I had never been sick and was faking having cancer! Talk about psycho!!! I was willing to do anything I had to do, and I did!
I used sex! I prostituted myself with my husband. I played him like I had been played for 28 years…..I was totally conscious of my role, and felt this was what I needed to do…….so I did. I didn’t feel good about it, and it was all an act……I pulled hard on my ‘inner sociopath’ at that point!
It was amazing, just how he played into my hand….like putty. I led him to believe we were going to be together, once I had him under my ‘spell’…..he worked his way back around to thinking he was in control of me……and I let him. He said….Okay, heres what we need to do…..and layed out a plan……I called his bluff and said, NO! YOu do it (his plan)……and he did……I got him out of town long enough to do what I had to at my rental house he was staying in, recon up the wazoodle…….. his behaviors when he left town, exposed him to family and I allowed HIM to plant his own seeds. Its very convoluted, but what I needed was to ‘be close’ to him…..allow him to think he ‘had’ me…..and be able to reconnect with our child.
It thankfully worked. The things he told family, alerted them to how weird he was and bizaar thought processes.
He also came right out and offered me information on how he needed to ‘fix’ things to allow us to be a ‘family’ again.
That particular time period was very telling for me.
Once I got what I needed to get done, I went 500 miles to where my child was and just ‘showed up’. My poor baby was so damn confused! I was in Houston at Dr’s apts with MD Anderson and I left a day early to fly to where son was. Oh, holy crap, when the S found out I was with son……he blew a gasket…..but I stayed with son for 2 weeks and allowed him to process it all on his own time. I allowed son to direct every conversation until he figured it all out on his own. I couldn’t go ‘rambo’ on him and ‘shove’ it all down his throat…..but he figured it out at the end of the first week. He sat in the car with me in a parking lot and we were chatting…..he asked me about another situation where his father had ‘come between us’, and at that point…..he said…..OMG…..Dad did the same thing this time didn’t he? I just looked at him and said….’it’s important for you to see it for yourself kiddo’.
So anyways…..yes, we must be crafty, conniving, stealth and KEEP OUR MOUTHS SHUT!
Think clearly, only take calculated risks adn NEVER Take chances out of desparation. If there is even a remote chance they will ‘cotton on’ to what you are doing…..stop and change tracks. If you need time……take it.
But, you are 100% correct in thinking you are one of many, there will always be another person to con, then after them…..a million more unfortunately.
My exs family was in contact with me initially……spilled their guts to me, we figured out the behaviors together……then they all gave in to the power he had over them. I am so glad I didn’t share what I was up to , my strategies, my plans……I kept some things close to the hip.
Remember, we can’t listen if our mouth is going…..I’m a talker, but I learned how to shut up and just listen, ask leading questions and listen and take notes (or record conversations for my own recolection)
Now on to the formers/ex’s….
Don’t think of a gang rape situation with him…..S’s like confrontation…….chaos, drama…..this is how he would view this…….
Think of the first wives club and get him by the balls….If they are angry at him and have nothing to ‘gain’ in regards to repayment……just gather info from them, don’t go into attack mode with them……you will only lose and look crazy…..(See I told you they were crazy). Again, they know how to respond to conflict….they are masters at that.
You want to do NOTHING to give him or others this impression, remember he has slandered you to everyone who will listen, DO NOT confirm his statements by any questionable actions in public;……again, self control.
Know your enemy. You will have to step outside of yourself for this on…….You didn’t know him while you were with him, so nows the time to make a study of him.
Okay…..that’s it for now….bedtime!
Good luck, and remember the rules of recon!
XXOO
ErinBrockavitch/Brilhancy
thanks I’m hanging on your every word. My instinct is saying attack him aggressively and dramatically, I did not know they enjoyed confrontation, I suppose it makes me look cracked when I do it, and I was at his front door shouting at him that he was a disgrace..He was sniggering and making the gesture to my neighbour and his parents…see? look at her? I’m not shouting am I? this woman is crazy…his crazy making method is ignoring my requests for documents, help, accountability…he would just fob me off, say he would do things and then just not do them….his sister told me she had heard I suddenly turned crazy..So this I clearly need to watch. As for being cocky! I am, its because I feel so small that I am trying to puff myself up into a scary animal about to strike….but this cockiness is my ego fighting for survival…so I hereby surrender to the battles and start observing the bigger picture….I will no longer react, its not working it just fuels my insanity and my goal is to stay sane..anchored in the real world where I’m unharmed really…I found out 1 and a half years into the sham….thats a blessing, we have no kids together, we have no house (even though he bombarded me with marriage proposals…how creepy now to think of that) the house is in my name, ok he made a mess of the so called “renovation” and I lost about 10, 000 euros on trusting him to look after it…so this is nothing in comparison with you guys…28 years with someone like that, what it must do to your head…and your children’s heads, you must be a genius at this stage to have stayed sane, and you really do sound so level headed and experienced so that’s a testament to the human spirit, and alot of women are going through this now….I guess to learn the lessons and evolve???? what a crappy thing to live through….I am still utterly obsessed with what he has done, what he has turned out to be, what I am continuing to find out about him….I wish I didn’t care and I could just drop it….I’m covering every angle with my mind, at the moment i am holding an image of him as being an inflated balloon that I am just itching to pop! how to do it…how to burst his bubble…after bursting my own. Self control..stealth…I like that word stealth…whats in his head about me now? does he wonder or worry…what is the brain of a psychopath like when he gets up in the morning…all an act? whats the real person doing…where is he located? back to reading everything on this site because I really get caught out thinking he is normal and he will wake up. But he is a completely different ball game to normal..
ErinBrockavitch/Stayingsane
“Never discuss your plans or real thoughts of him with anyone that ever was or is ’close’ with him—”
I am the only one who knows what I have done. Not even my children know it. The S only found out when he tried to get back to me…..I have no courage to tell anyone, because I will look a completely bad person…but no one also knows what I went through. I moved overseas with him (actually he came with me) and our baby daughter. So, isolation for me in a foreign country was a very favourable thing for him. I think when we moved overseas he was already running from something else and was using me for that. Only now I know that.
Marriage. I never believed in marriage and I never wanted to get marriaed. He insisted so much and I finally agreed after our second child. eg; after 7 years together and our life was really good. After I got married on his insistence he started showing his claws. (in our marriage certificate he put himself as a Lawyer and I always believed he done Law degree- he never went to Uni, and only 3 years after i got free from him i found out his is bagamous) . After the marriage I became his possession and things started to change and by then I had 2 kids and my career to manage. The bastard never got a real job only spending money with new cars, and all sort of tools which he never used for anything. Then was moving houses .He was never satisfied with anything and slowly started abusing me and the psycotic attacks and all sort of craziness and I had 2 young children but he was always good with th kids and started telling them I think Mum is crazy… Then I found out he made a life insurance for me. That was the only bill he never forgot to pay. In one of our figths he said: the best thing that could happen to him was if I dye because he would get all the insurance money. There were no DV that could get him out from my house, I had a few court orders for him not to come close to the house but he managed to overturned that decision and here he was again. All nice and all promises. He would not separate from me, no, no way. His mission was to desgrace me and finish with my life. But in a way that no one could tell. No one would ever believed me if I told what he was. With other people he was the most amazing person, caring father and devoted husband. That is how well they play..when in fact he was killing me slowly..
So be aware and play his game. Do not get angry at him.. be nice to him he wants to make you completely submisse to him. be it. pretend you love him a lot and can not leave without him and slowly device your plan to finish with him. It is time for you to gether every piece of material on him and documenting everything. Be careful on how you do this.
But I am not sure if 10.000 euros is worth the pain and sacrifice. If I had only 10.000 to loose I would ignore him completely and concentrate my energies in get 10.000 back soon and a complete new life. specially because you have no children.. Why boder….but if you want to play him you can do it..
Stayingsane:
If it’s ‘justice’ your seeking, you will never get that. If it’s revenge your seeking, you will never get that either. If you want to change him and ‘make him’ respect you, you will only declare war.
You must be careful. Like I said before, you need to work out the ‘weights and measures’ prior to taking this on.
There is always a cost involved.
I was financially devastated…..140K in debt and climbing…..home in foreclosure etc….
My health was questionable and my financial future looked questionable if I had the energy inside my body to rebuild my business and the stamina to be able to keep up.
If I got sick again, NOW WHAT?
Bankruptcy wouldn’t discharge a lot of my debts….
So I had to fight tooth and nail. My S was an idiot and stupid….not a business guy, but a con….rico suave type……relied on his looks and charm….didn’t have anything to back it up…..that was my role all those years…..take care of business and allow him to appear ‘under control’.
So take away me and you are left with stupid.
Don’t count on ever seeing the money……it’s a good mindset to get to…..acceptance. Reduce your expectations.
You need to read this site before you proceed. You can’t go into anything without knowing it inside and out.
The only reason I could go after ‘him’, was because our divorce was not final and I knew what assets were still in tact to go after. As the wife, I had a legal right…….I was afraid of the home foreclosing and him draining the retirement accounts…….and to be honest, if he had of done that, it wouldn’t have been worth the fight. I knew there was something to go after.
You still come out angry, because you will never be able to change WHAT he has done, and continues to do.
The ‘revenge’ never takes that away and thisseems what you are seeking.
I suggest you allow yourself to get to the point of trading this lesson as the price you paid for this education. Educate yourself on the topic to allow yourself to be more aware of the next con coming your way. We all get more cons, so don’t believe you will be immune………it’s how we let them affect us. We can block them out with awareness and education. Keep those decoder glasses on and develop a new set of life/trust/awareness rules moving forward.
Yes, it would appear they win……but trust in this…..they do not, and it always catches up!!!!! We need to develope patience to trust in……
The gift is always ours, when we choose to educate ourselves for the future and rid ourselves of this sort of relationship. You must heal!.
Dear Staying sane,
I totally agree with the above posts, you will NEVER get justice. And even if you did, you would never get the money back. He will figure some way out of actually paying it back, and you will expend good energy that could be used for healing yourself after getting “justice” and maybe even a bit of revenge—and then be emptier than before you tried to get justice and/or money.
They are SO CRAFTY and so mean, and SO ENJOY the fight because they usually WIN–but even if they don’t win, they don’t learn from their mistakes, and FEEL AS IF THEY ARE THE WINNERS.
My P-son murdered a woman and was put in prison and yet he still feels that he is a WINNER after more than half his life in prison for robbery then murder. It isn’t his fault he went to prison, but the “fault” of those that turned him in for his crime. NOW MAKE SENSE IF YOU CAN OF THAT! I sure can’t see how he is a WINNER, but HE SEES HIMSELF AS A WINNER because he can’t think any other way. Nothing is ever his fault! His robbing and murdering weren’t wrong, his only “problems” are those created by witnesses and others. LOL He will never change, never learn from his mistakes, and nothning is wrong for him to do if he wants to do it. Rules are FOR OTHERS, NOT FOR HIM.
Dear Oxy,
I need to tell you the only reason for a person like me to not take advice is because…with 4 kids…I am financially ruined to the penny and cannot afford to take off….I always tell myself…if I win the lottery I will go to the opposite ends of the world! Money really matters and when you’ve lost everyone you had called friend because they dont want to know you when everything is gone( but boy were they there to enjoy your successes!) and you have no support…you just stay and shut up…not because you want to …because you have kids and cannot take the thought of living in a homeless shelter and starting your life over again at almost 49…You kind of lose the will that had made you successful in the first place.Its sad but I think ok…someday I’ll die and see God…and then all will be good because for certain my S/P wont be there
Brilhancy
You really had it with that creep, and Whilst i got the short version of the experience, I actually felt he killed me off in every way except physically…the only thing your psycho invested in was after you die…well it sends chills through me and I guarantee I would dedicate every fibre of my being to surviving and out witting that, and I’m so priviledged to be even talking to you, you are a hero in your own lifetime…you could be dead…. I want to spend time thinking of the people who did die at the hands of these creeps… my heart goes out to them, I would do anything to turn back time and stop this happening…its unbearable to me that someone innocent can be destroyed by this…but look at society…hardley even notices….
ErinB
yes its the war one I want…the respect and change..my fantasy is he “gets it” finally and he falls on his knees and cries….he admits every crime and turns around, he pays me back and finally gives me respect…and I am the woman who touched his soul…ha ha ha ha well I think I will replace that with patience and healing and trust that life will get him…I dont have to (I’m 50…I’m tired…All I wanted was a nice guy)
oxdrover
I will never get “justice” okay well then I can surrender instead…only because I am on this site and I have you guys to help me….I am just living here at the moment and finding it within myself to listen to you…and I actually feel comforted for the first time…the jagged pain is softening and the shock is thawing out…huge anger yes but if I just love myself and stay here and listen then maybe i can stay out of further trouble…
your son murdered a woman….well what can I say…just blown away…and he still cannot find it within himself to admit any responsibility? what does it take….how have we as a society enabled this to happen…something has to change.
Bopeep
money is not a problem till you do not have any….I know it. support is so crucial, and if its gone you must be so lonely…just stay and shut up? 49? you have the rest of your life! at least when we are here living through it there are things we can do….how do you know you will be able to anything when you die? and who says your s/p wont be there??? we are evolving and God created psychopaths as the very negativity that we need to turn around….just my opinion! no offence intended…my heart breaks for you and I wish you could find a way to freedom this lifetime so you deal with it..and we should be able to help you do it…
Knowledge is Power
The Truth will set You Free, after it Piisses you off
There is a Bigger Picture
ASPD
Please explore this link and If you feel that you can help, send it to everyone ! Thanks
http://www.wanttoknow.info/
Dear BoPeep,
Your post made me weep for your pain, and your feeling so TRAPPED by finances and four children. But I do have some idea of how you feel. When I was married before, my divorce was the divorce from HELL, he ended up leaving me with (1) a 10 year old pick up truck with a plain camper shell on the back, (2) two sons ages 8 and 9 (3) a cat (4) $350 (5) several changes of clothing for each of us. That was the ENTIRETY of my resources and I was 34 years old. I had been a stay at home mom most of the time, or just worked part time, and really had no skills that were salable much above subsistence level.
My sons and I lived in public parks and camp grounds for that summer, and during the time in early May when he left and fall when school started, I managed to find a place to live with a friend termporarily, enroll in college, find a RUN DOWN house to rent and made a deal with the land lord to fix it up if he would not raise the rent on me for the rest of my college time (we both stuck to it) and enrolled in college, started school, got VERY minimal child support, started a network of single parents (both male and female–people I met at school, church etc) and we arranged barter systems to help each other out with child care, car care, house work, tutoring, etc because NONE us had any money. I planted a garden the next spring in my yard and raised a good deal of our food (the kids helped out) started a house cleanign service with another non-traditional student, and cleaned houses between classes….wrote and sold magazine articles, and managed to survive the next 4 years one day at a time.
Once I “invested” the last $1.37 I had to my name in a poker game with some guys at a birthday party (they were drinking and I wasn’t) and that night I left there with about $50 in my purse—and I would have stayed longer and gotten more but my date that night told me if we didn’t leave then, he would have to “fight our way out th edoor if you take any more of their money.” BUT I NEEDED THE MONEY and that $50 bought groceries and gas I needed.
I realize I was somewhat younger than you are now, but you know…two years ago I left it all to go live in a small RV trailer not knowing if I would ever return here to my home because of the psychopaths and I found out that I could still DO IT, and make whatever financial adjustments I had to make in order to LIVE IN PEACE. If it meant living in a TENT and eating out of a dumpster, I would gladly take the tent and peace over a palace without PEACE.
Not that I am criticising your choices, I don’t mean that at all. We ALL MAKE OUR OWN CHOICES, TRADE OFFS for what we will “pay” for what we “get”—-I too believe that there is a heaven and a hell after death…but there are also HELLS-ON-EARTH here too, and I will AVOID that emotional hell on earth by whatever method is necessary. Poverty ain’t all that bad when you have PEACE. I live well below the official “poverty” level now as far as income is concerned, yet I have EVERYTHING in the world I need. I have clothing (Thank you, God for Goodwill and yard sales) I have food (i produce some of it myself in a small garden and meat) I have reasonably good health for my age, and I have people who love me, and I have a heavenly Father who loves me and provides for me just as he does the lilies of the field and the sparrows, and I TRUST in Him to give me the strength I need to endure whatever comes.\
I have been financially rich and I have been essentially homeless and broke, but I am determined to be emotionally FREE of the ABUSERS. I have the determination because I no longer give a flip about “financial security” when it means I have to exchange my PEACE for that. But each of us has to make our own decisions in life about what we will endure for what result. Just like when you go to work and the job is miserable but pays extremely well. Others might have a job that pays very poorly but they enjoy it, so each of these people has a choice and their choice is their own.
I’ve had jobs I HATED and I stayed for a while because I NEEDED the money, and there was no other job in sight. I have left other jobs that payed VERY well because I hated it and the money didn’t mean anything as there was a lower paying but nicer job available. So your decision depends on a lot of other factors.
Take heart and don’t narrow your options completely. In the meantime, stay here and blog and learn, read and learn, and know that your pain is validated. Many people here have “stayed” for some time feeling that they couldn’t leave for one reason or another. Many times they found out that the pain of staying wasn’t worth the cost and that leaving wasn’t as painful as they had thought it would be. Just keep your options open. I am 62 and I left home (again) at 60. (((hugs))) and my prayers.
Thank you Oxy….WOW! I guess one has to be” there” at the breaking point and I just havent hopped that fence yet…but I am here and will continue..